HS Basketball - comments welcome

[jwhite]

I've recently started taking pictures at high school basketball games. The most recent was this past friday. I think it was probably my best game so far that I've taken. Those that are sport's photographers, can u take a look a look at gallery and provide critique or comments? Actually any can look through it and provide comments. :)

http://www.jrwhitephoto.com/gallery/4394869_DoMuf#258125385

I shot mostly 1/400 - 2.8 with my 70-200mm at ISO 3200. I would have liked to have shot with a faster shutter speed, but HS gyms aren't exactly the brightest. I didn't want to use flash because I don't like how it looks with it. Plus I think it would be more of a distraction for the players.

Thanks,
Jason

[jwhite]

Another questions with regards to lightning during these games. The previous game I struggled to capture anything desirable because of the harsh lighting. I always shoot mostly RAW, so I was able to recover some pictures. I shot basically the same format, although I tried playing around w/ the shutter speed due to the lighting. These two I shot 1/500 - 2.8 ISO 3200. No post-processing here. This particular court had fluorescent directly overhead, but over the stands was no lighting at all. I'm thinking this had a lot to do w/ the results. Although these two were shot looking into the middle of the court.

Any reason why the lighting would change this much when the shots were 1/3 second apart? There were many other shots that had the same basic effect.



Thanks,
Jason

[pagnamenta]

Tighter crops. The action seemed really busy (players all over the place), I would have tried shooting from under the hoop for some variety in your shots. Shooting in RAW can help, especially with WB in post processing.

Seems like 1/400th was fast enough. Try cropping a little tighter and get some more faces in the photo.

[pagnamenta]

I just took a look at your gallery. You've got some much better photos in there than you posted on this forum. The crops and lighting seemed much better. Some shot lacked the basketball though - work on your timing.

[jwhite]

Yeah, the two here weren't meant to be represented of my final post-processing, but more a question on the lighting and why it varied so much between two shots that were shot when 1/3 second.

My gallery has the final images and post-processing. I like them a lot better, espcially the gallery I posted here. If you go through all the games I shot, its pretty easy to tell that I got a lot better toward the later games.

The ones on the other end of the court were pushing the 200mm end of my lense (no crop sensor), so I had to crop them significantly with post-processing. I found that shooting under the basket was difficult with 70mm, so I normally shot a little to the side. Plus the basket tends to get in the way directly underneath.

And I still have more practice to do! :) To bad the season is about to wrap up. I loved it. I followed a particular team around, and it was fun just watching them play.

Jason

[pagnamenta]

I can only guess that the color difference is due to auto WB and possibly metering. I really don't have any answers for you, sorry. I've only had this happen to me a few times, and that's when I shot auto WB and spot metering.

[sun5150]

I've gotten the different lighting before on 3-4 shots in a row. I use AWB also.

The game next week I might try shooting at 3250K balance or so. Thats about the avg that I been using on my raw white balance.

[cwphoto]

Fluorescent lights flicker, usually at a frequency of 1/100s or 1/120s.

At a speed of 1/500s you will find some lights are in an off phase during exposure.

Not much you can do really. Taking photos @ 1/50s to ensure even illumination isn't really good for indoor sports. :eek:

[jwhite]

Ahh, that makes sense. I thought I read some that they flicker, but I didn't think it would be that noticeable. The other gyms I've shot in I've never had an issue. Probably different type of bulb or something.

CW, did you look at the gallery? What do you think? I know you shoot a lot of sports action. And I know you are the master! :D Any tips or suggestions?

[n20capri]

wow I think they look great!!! I like this one...did he make the shot? lol
http://www.jrwhitephoto.com/photos/258098478_jjAKM-L.jpg

[cwphoto]

CW, did you look at the gallery? What do you think? I know you shoot a lot of sports action. And I know you are the master! :D Any tips or suggestions?

Just looking through it now. #22 is my favourite.

What looks good:
All the technical stuff: Tv, Av, Ev, Focus, WB.

Your timing is generally good, fantastic periodically.

What to work on:
Some shots need to be tighter, either a longer lens or crop in post. Watch your horizons (just one or two of the long shots). Try and have the ball in as many shots as possible. Don't be afarid to show only a dozen of your very best (unless you are using this site to generate sales and need to show the volume), rather than eighty 'fair' shots.

Overall, I would be very happy with these as a parent or sports editor for the school paper etc. :)

[pagnamenta]

The image n20capri posted could use a tighter crop. Perhaps a defensive shot but for an offensive shot you need faces.

[jwhite]

wow I think they look great!!! I like this one...did he make the shot? lol


Thanks Mike. Of the top of my head, I'm not sure if he made it, but they made some pretty amazing ones during the course of the game. Probably the best game that I saw all season. The team I was cheering for (underdogs) lost by a point. They had a chance for the go ahead but missed a free throw and then fouled w/ .3 seconds left. The opposing team made one free throw, and the game was over.

[jwhite]

The image n20capri posted could use a tighter crop. Perhaps a defensive shot but for an offensive shot you need faces.

Yep, that one did need a tighter crop. The problem is I don't know how much crop I can do w/ an image without degrading it. It already had a fairly significant crop. It was taken across course, and the longest lens I have is the 70-200. I use it for versatility. With the 5D, I don't get any in camera crop. Not the best lens for shooting sports, but it works. I guess w/ 12 MP, I should be able to crop a decent amount.

Also couldn't get a face on the offensive person (the team I was shooting) because the action was on the other end of the court.

Looking back at the pic, I realized it is still 7.6 MP. I could have cropped a little more without degrading it. Of course more noise sets in.

I'll keep that in mind when I crop next or maybe go back through these.

Jason

[jwhite]

Just looking through it now. #22 is my favourite.

What looks good:
All the technical stuff: Tv, Av, Ev, Focus, WB.

Your timing is generally good, fantastic periodically.

What to work on:
Some shots need to be tighter, either a longer lens or crop in post. Watch your horizons (just one or two of the long shots). Try and have the ball in as many shots as possible. Don't be afarid to show only a dozen of your very best (unless you are using this site to generate sales and need to show the volume), rather than eighty 'fair' shots.

Overall, I would be very happy with these as a parent or sports editor for the school paper etc. :)

Thanks CW. I posted 80 shots because I was passing the gallery on to the coach and the rest of the team. I mainly shot for my own experience. I thought about releasing fewer of the pics, but figured more would be better for the team. I did drop half of them and didn't post them. :)

Don't have a longer lens (yet), but I can try to crop more. Not sure I would like working with a longer lens either unless I got a second camera, which really isn't in site anytime soon. I did like the versatility of the 70-200. Is there a limit to how much cropping I can do? Is 3MP enough for a decent 5x7 or 8x10? I also shot ISO 3200, so I'm sure that comes into play w/ regards to cropping.

Horizons I def need to work on. Thanks for pointing that out! I forgot all about checking that in post-processing.

I'll continue to work on timing. I've shot 8 games so far this season. I hope its improved since starting.

I'm not sure where I'm heading with shooting HS. I'm not sure there is much market for it. I guess maybe once I get my name out to the parents or newspaper. Anyone have business knowledge w/ regards to shooting HS sports. Does it make sense? I guess from a personal side, I think I would enjoy shooting HS more so than college. I really enjoyed these past 8 games. These kids have a lot of excitement, plus its more of a team game. I'm also not sure if there are restrictions with shooting college games. Pretty easy to pull out the 70-200 and shoot HS.

Jason

[cwphoto]

Thanks CW. I posted 80 shots because I was passing the gallery on to the coach and the rest of the team. I mainly shot for my own experience. I thought about releasing fewer of the pics, but figured more would be better for the team. I did drop half of them and didn't post them. :)

Don't have a longer lens (yet), but I can try to crop more. Not sure I would like working with a longer lens either unless I got a second camera, which really isn't in site anytime soon. I did like the versatility of the 70-200. Is there a limit to how much cropping I can do? Is 3MP enough for a decent 5x7 or 8x10? I also shot ISO 3200, so I'm sure that comes into play w/ regards to cropping.

Horizons I def need to work on. Thanks for pointing that out! I forgot all about checking that in post-processing.

I'll continue to work on timing. I've shot 8 games so far this season. I hope its improved since starting.

I'm not sure where I'm heading with shooting HS. I'm not sure there is much market for it. I guess maybe once I get my name out to the parents or newspaper. Anyone have business knowledge w/ regards to shooting HS sports. Does it make sense? I guess from a personal side, I think I would enjoy shooting HS more so than college. I really enjoyed these past 8 games. These kids have a lot of excitement, plus its more of a team game. I'm also not sure if there are restrictions with shooting college games. Pretty easy to pull out the 70-200 and shoot HS.

Jason

At 180dpi, you can afford to crop your images by 50% linearly without interpolation for an 8x10". Not sure how that translates into MP on the 5D, but if you shoot RAW or at the very least in JPEG Large/Fine you should be right.

I don't do HS sports, but I shoot action for my local soccer club. I do discs as it's quick and easy rather than on-site printing for which I don't have the time nor the inclination. I charge $120 to $150 per team and for that I supply a disc for each financially contributing family in the team. They work out the math depending on interest in the team, so whether there are five or fifteen it makes no difference to me.

Two of my sons play for the club so it kinda kills two birds with one stone, and I can usually do 2-3 teams on any given day so it's not bad pocket money. The club also needs images from time to time, but as I am a committee member I typically do this for them au gratis - but in your position maybe you could also sell to the paper.

One thing to avoid IMO is shooting on spec and then waiting (hoping) for orders. Better to shoot commissioned for slightly less cash than shoot all day on a suspect - and then having some way to market the images. This way I spend more time shooting and less time marketing which is probably not good advice from a business perspective, but it's a lot more fun.

[jwhite]

At 180dpi, you can afford to crop your images by 50% linearly without interpolation for an 8x10". Not sure how that translates into MP on the 5D, but if you shoot RAW or at the very least in JPEG Large/Fine you should be right.

I'll keep that in mind. I imagine I could probably have cropped more with the players at the far end of the court.


I don't do HS sports, but I shoot action for my local soccer club. I do discs as it's quick and easy rather than on-site printing for which I don't have the time nor the inclination. I charge $120 to $150 per team and for that I supply a disc for each financially contributing family in the team. They work out the math depending on interest in the team, so whether there are five or fifteen it makes no difference to me.

Two of my sons play for the club so it kinda kills two birds with one stone, and I can usually do 2-3 teams on any given day so it's not bad pocket money. The club also needs images from time to time, but as I am a committee member I typically do this for them au gratis - but in your position maybe you could also sell to the paper.

That sounds like a pretty good option. I probably need to get on the in with some of the parents though, since I don't have any kids playing. Thats part of the reason why I listed so many here. I was hoping the pictures would somehow find their way from the kids/coach to the parents. :) I guess if I keep shooting next year, that will get me more exposed. I probably should stay after the games a little bit as well. Up to this point, I've left as soon as the game was over.


One thing to avoid IMO is shooting on spec and then waiting (hoping) for orders. Better to shoot commissioned for slightly less cash than shoot all day on a suspect - and then having some way to market the images. This way I spend more time shooting and less time marketing which is probably not good advice from a business perspective, but it's a lot more fun.

I def won't be shooting all day. Don't have time for it. Most of these games take 1.5hrs at night plus a little work post-processing. Travel time sometimes adds up, but I'm willing to make the effort because I also like watching them play. Its nice getting a court side view.

Thanks for the good tips. Eventually I'd like to make a little profit on some of these shoots. Help counter act some of these expenses :D

Jason

[Billw]

I noticed that you have the 85mm f1.8 . I like to use that lens because it is a little faster. I use a whi-bal card to help with the white balance. I get down to the court and put it on the floor for quick shot. Shooting in RAW helps. Your pictures are good. You should have been at the Richwoods -ND game.

[jwhite]

I noticed that you have the 85mm f1.8 . I like to use that lens because it is a little faster. I use a whi-bal card to help with the white balance. I get down to the court and put it on the floor for quick shot. Shooting in RAW helps. Your pictures are good. You should have been at the Richwoods -ND game.

Hey Bill,

So are you from around Peoria? Do you shoot any of the local HS games?

Yeah, that sounded like a pretty sweet game. To bad I missed it. Some of these regional games get to be too much though. Even the Dunlap/Rock Island game had 4 or 5 photographers. I read that ND lost last night. Guess we have just a couple of teams left in the area.

I like the 70-200 because of the versatility of the zoom. 85 on the a full frame like the 5D might not have been long enough in some circumstances. But, I realized I should have at least tried it. Now I have to wait for to next year.

Do you know if they do a lot of checking on press passes, etc on these bigger regional, sectional, etc games? I have been just walking in and shooting.

Jason

[Billw]

Jason,

I have a daughter that plays volleyball, basketball and soccer and is a freshmen. So I have taken photos at a few of her volleyball and basketball games as a freshman. I have a son who is a junior who plays soccer. So I taken alot more soccer photos than indoor sports. So I am learning as I go along. I think each school is different as far as letting you shoot if you are down on the floor. Most freshmen and especially girls games not are heavily attended and so it is not much of an issue unless you get in the way. It never hurts to ask in advance. The ISHA has been in big battle to control photos taken at Championships by newspapers who offer them for sale and have restricted photographers to the stands in favor their photographers who they have sanctioned so that they own the photos.

[jwhite]

Jason,

I have a daughter that plays volleyball, basketball and soccer and is a freshmen. So I have taken photos at a few of her volleyball and basketball games as a freshman. I have a son who is a junior who plays soccer. So I taken alot more soccer photos than indoor sports. So I am learning as I go along. I think each school is different as far as letting you shoot if you are down on the floor. Most freshmen and especially girls games not are heavily attended and so it is not much of an issue unless you get in the way. It never hurts to ask in advance. The ISHA has been in big battle to control photos taken at Championships by newspapers who offer them for sale and have restricted photographers to the stands in favor their photographers who they have sanctioned so that they own the photos.

Bill,

Yea, I thought I remember reading last the big fuss about the ISHA getting their own people to take pictures at the March Madness event. I never knew about regular games. Part of the reason why I followed Dunlap (other than liking the team) was that their crowds were a little smaller than other schools. I think it would be harder to get pics in of Washington, Pekin, Richwoods, etc. Plus I think I would feel more intimidated with those bigger games.

I submitted a recent Dunlap/Rock Island Regional game pic to week.com local news cast and actually won! I didn't see the news at 6, so hopefully it shows again at 10. I was pretty excited about that.

How does the 70-200 work for soccer? Is it long enough? I would think it would be a little short, esp for me on a full frame. I think the next sport I'll try out is soccer or football, but I def do more bball games next year. Had too much fun.

Jason

[sun5150]

Jason,

Here's my 4 cents on what lens to use. If you can shoot at court side and under the basket. Your 24-70 would work the best. The 70-200 will get too close I think. You might miss the ball in the picture for a rebound or dunk if you don't move fast to get everything in the frame.

I been shooting with a 50 1.4 under the basket and sometimes I would miss the ball. I get players grabbing for air.

If you get to shoot from under the basket. Its a little better to be on the right side. (The free throw line is in front of you.) There's more right handed players and they drive from your left side. You can get there faces and not backs.

[jwhite]

Jason,

Here's my 4 cents on what lens to use. If you can shoot at court side and under the basket. Your 24-70 would work the best. The 70-200 will get too close I think. You might miss the ball in the picture for a rebound or dunk if you don't move fast to get everything in the frame.

I been shooting with a 50 1.4 under the basket and sometimes I would miss the ball. I get players grabbing for air.

If you get to shoot from under the basket. Its a little better to be on the right side. (The free throw line is in front of you.) There's more right handed players and they drive from your left side. You can get there faces and not backs.

Thanks for the advice. Next year, I'll have to try out the 24-70 and 85. One thing to keep in mind is that I have a 5D (full frame), which means my 70 is really a 70 and not 112. If I had a crop camera, then there is no way the 70-200 would work. I also like the reach so I can get the other end because I don't have a second camera. I thought the range of the 70-200 worked for the most part rather well. Anything wider than 50, I'd probably have to crop quite a bit. I think it helped I followed the same team, so I knew their tendencies. It would be cool to figure out what the average focal length that I used.

The last game (http://www.jrwhitephoto.com/gallery/4425802_b84Nw#260046538) I worked with a little more and did some tighter crops. I think the pics look better because they are tighter and showed the player's faces rather than show their entire body. I do need to work better on getting more of the basket in shots though. Its hard though with the 5D since most of the AF sensors are in the center, which means the player is normally in the center of the shot.

Jason

[sun5150]

Jason,

Nice pics.

Here's pics (http://public.fotki.com/sun5150/ccsf-vs-csm/) I took a few weeks ago. I was lucky to have both the women's and men's play at the same night. This is junior college basketball.

[jwhite]

Jason,

Nice pics.

Here's pics (http://public.fotki.com/sun5150/ccsf-vs-csm/) I took a few weeks ago. I was lucky to have both the women's and men's play at the same night. This is junior college basketball.

Nice shots. It looked like the gym had considerably more ambient lighting than the gyms I shot in. You used ISO 500, where I was stuck with 1600/3200 most of the time! I guess that's what you get with college basketball. :)

On a side note, I submitted three of my pics to a local tv station for a 'yourNews' contest. I ended up winning and they aired my shots on the 6pm news!

Jason

[Billw]

Jason,

The 70-200m f4 is great for soccer because of the 1.6 crop from my Canon XTI. There have been a couple times at schools like Dunlap that actually play soccer in a stadium type setting when I wished had a 1.4 teleconverter to slap on. At most schools I take photos on the sidelines of the field. Sometimes from
small portable stands next to the field. I have thought of buying a 3rd party teleconverter like Kenko that i can also use with my 85m F1.8 for night games when you need more speed than the F4 can provide. Canon teleconverter won't work with the 85m so a 3rd party teleconverter would seem more practical. good luck and keep shooting. Girls soccer will start in about two and half weeks.