Went from A80 to A650 IS - noise problems?

[mark95tt]

Hi,

I'm a photography novice, with most of my shots being made using the AUTO setting on my cameras.

My wife and I recently upgraded from a 4yr old PowerShot A80, which we love, to a new fancy A650 IS after reading several convincing reviews. We've only just started using it and downloaded our first back of pics to the PC, and I have to say I'm pretty disappointed. Where my old A80 pics used to be clear, crisp, and noise-free, the new pics from the A650 have tended to be very noisy in comparison, and somewhat dull looking relative to the A80.

I've posted two examples from each camera below, with the corresponding camera settings along with them. The cameras both were set to AUTO mode (with AUTO ISO on the A650), all the shots were done indoors in the evening with the flash on. And sorry to post such big pics, but I wanted to posted them in the full 1600x1200 res that I shot them in.

First, the A80 shots:

http://lh3.google.com/mark.filer/R7tRtDLnzxI/AAAAAAAAAR4/Gz7BmWyyXN4/IMG_5189.JPG?imgmax=1600

File Name
IMG_5189.JPG
Camera Model Name
Canon PowerShot A80
Shooting Date/Time
1/22/2008 12:21:06 PM
Shooting Mode
Auto
Photo Effect Mode
Off
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/60
Av( Aperture Value )
3.5
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
Auto
Lens
7.8 - 23.4mm
Focal Length
13.6mm
Digital Zoom
None
Image Size
1200x1600
Image Quality
Fine
Flash
On
Flash Type
Built-In Flash
Flash Exposure Compensation
0
Red-eye Reduction
On
Shutter curtain sync
1st-curtain sync
White Balance
Auto
AF Mode
Single AF
File Size
477KB
Drive Mode
Single-frame shooting

=================================
http://lh4.google.com/mark.filer/R7tRtTLnzyI/AAAAAAAAASA/3F7kFNV-i8k/IMG_4950.JPG?imgmax=1600

File Name
IMG_4950.JPG
Camera Model Name
Canon PowerShot A80
Shooting Date/Time
12/19/2007 10:55:16 AM
Shooting Mode
Auto
Photo Effect Mode
Off
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/60
Av( Aperture Value )
2.8
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
Auto
Lens
7.8 - 23.4mm
Focal Length
7.8mm
Digital Zoom
None
Image Size
1600x1200
Image Quality
Fine
Flash
On
Flash Type
Built-In Flash
Flash Exposure Compensation
0
Red-eye Reduction
On
Shutter curtain sync
1st-curtain sync
White Balance
Auto
AF Mode
Single AF
File Size
392KB
Drive Mode
Single-frame shooting

=================================

Now, the A650 pics:


http://lh6.google.com/mark.filer/R7tRszLnzvI/AAAAAAAAARo/kN7gGQ6Lh2Y/IMG_0019.JPG?imgmax=1600

File Name
IMG_0019.JPG
Camera Model Name
Canon PowerShot A650 IS
Shooting Date/Time
2/14/2008 4:59:42 PM
Shooting Mode
Auto
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/60
Av( Aperture Value )
3.5
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
200
Lens
7.4 - 44.4mm
Focal Length
21.10mm
Digital Zoom
None
Image Stabilizer
On
Image Size
1600x1200
Image Quality
Fine
Flash
On
Flash Type
Built-In Flash
Flash Exposure Compensation
0
Red-eye Reduction
On
Shutter curtain sync
1st-curtain sync
White Balance
Auto
AF Mode
Single AF
Parameters
Contrast Normal
Sharpness Normal
Color saturation Normal
File Size
463KB
Drive Mode
Single-frame shooting

=================================

http://lh3.google.com/mark.filer/R7tRtDLnzwI/AAAAAAAAARw/bmV5yb4Dw7s/IMG_0109.JPG?imgmax=1600

File Name
IMG_0109.JPG
Camera Model Name
Canon PowerShot A650 IS
Shooting Date/Time
2/17/2008 8:14:31 PM
Shooting Mode
Auto
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/60
Av( Aperture Value )
3.5
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
200
Lens
7.4 - 44.4mm
Focal Length
16.8mm
Digital Zoom
None
Image Stabilizer
On
Image Size
1600x1200
Image Quality
Fine
Flash
On
Flash Type
Built-In Flash
Flash Exposure Compensation
0
Red-eye Reduction
On
Shutter curtain sync
1st-curtain sync
White Balance
Auto
AF Mode
Single AF
Parameters
Contrast Normal
Sharpness Normal
Color saturation Normal
File Size
501KB
Drive Mode
Single-frame shooting

=================================


If the pictures aren't showing up, you can access them in my web album here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mark.filer/CanonCompare

Hopefully, you can see the added noise I'm talking about in the A650 photos. Especially in the red shirt of the first picture, and in the beige wall of the second picture. Also, the lines in the photos just aren't as "crisp" as what I'm used to seeing in the A80.

So, I'm just trying to figure out if this is something I'm doing wrong, if my camera is defective somehow, or if I should just return it and "downgrade" to a lower MP camera that may not have these issues. A lot of the pictures we take are of our daughter indoors (as you can see), and we've always just used AUTO mode on the A80 and not had problems. If it's going to be drastically more complex on the A650 to get decent pictures, it's not really worth it to me.

Any advice you might give is much appreciated. I'm very much a novice and don't really know where to turn, and Canon tech support was no help. Thanks for having a look!

Regards,
Mark

[AndyfromVA]

To me the A650 pictures are sharper but not as bright as the A80 pictures.
Was face detection on when you used the A650?

I really don't see any additional noise in the A650 shots.

[mark95tt]

I see what you mean about the brightness, the A80 pics look brighter. I did have face detection on with the A650.

But for the noise - at least on my monitor - the red shirt in the 3rd picture is horribly noisy. I even tried printing it out on my PIXMA MP470 to be sure it wasn't my monitor doing something funky, and it looked equally crappy.

[AndyfromVA]

According to Picasa, the third picture, the baby in the red shirt, is from the A80.

[mark95tt]

Sorry, should've referred by filename: IMG_0019.JPG

[palple]

I see what you mean about the brightness, the A80 pics look brighter. I did have face detection on with the A650.

But for the noise - at least on my monitor - the red shirt in the 3rd picture is horribly noisy. I even tried printing it out on my PIXMA MP470 to be sure it wasn't my monitor doing something funky, and it looked equally crappy.

The A650 photos were shot at iso=200, hence the noise. That's because of autoiso mode. According to my experience the A80 in autoiso mode stays at the lowest setting with flash on, iso=50.

I never use the auto settings on more modern cameras because I don't want this autoiso behaviour which is pretty ubiquitous.

[mark95tt]

Thanks palple. Yeah, I saw that the ISO setting that the A650 was selecting was 200. I didn't know what the A80 was using, thanks for the insight. That makes sense then.

I came across this review which talks about the excessive noise levels present in the A650 when using ISOs of 200 and above:
A650 IS (http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-PowerShot-A650-IS-Digital-Camera-Review-16394/TestingPerformance.htm) on digitalcamerainfo.com

So is the take away advice just to always use low ISO settings (80,100) whenever shooting indoors/low-lighting with the flash?

Would going to a lower MP camera (e.g., Canon A630, 8MP) alleviate this need for worrying about setting the ISO? I know my wife isn't going to want to worry about selecting the correct ISO settings whenever she takes pictures around the house.

Thanks for the input,
Mark

[palple]

The number of MP doesn't change much about the noise levels at higher iso.

A friend of mine took a lot of photos at last year's eve party with a 5MP kodak camera: the flash was on, but with his autoiso setting all the pictures looked like garbage. All the pictures I took with my powershot A80 looked a lot smoother, they were all took at iso 50.

So the only advice I can give you is to keep your iso setting as low as possible when shooting indoor/low light portraits with the flash on.

Btw, is the A650 so much bigger than the A80 I'm going to replace soon? TIA.

[AndyfromVA]

If you shoot in P mode you can set your ISO at a particular level, for example 80, and it will not go above 80. You can advise your wife to take all her indoor pictures in P mode and they will come out nice - she won't have to mess with any settings because you will have set them all beforehand. All she will have to do is turn the dial from Auto to P.

[mark95tt]

Btw, is the A650 so much bigger than the A80 I'm going to replace soon? TIA.

Not a ton bigger. It would still fit in the front pocket of my jeans OK if I'm out walking around. It's very slightly wider overall, and only a little thicker (maybe 1/4").


If you shoot in P mode you can set your ISO at a particular level, for example 80, and it will not go above 80. You can advise your wife to take all her indoor pictures in P mode and they will come out nice - she won't have to mess with any settings because you will have set them all beforehand. All she will have to do is turn the dial from Auto to P.

Thanks, I'll take some practice shots tonight in P mode w/ISO 80 and see if that helps things out.

Auto should still be OK to use for outdoor shots then? Or should I avoid it altogether, as palple said.

[AndyfromVA]

I have 2 Canons. Auto does an excellent job outdoors but it's a good idea to experiment with the P mode and M (manual) mode when shooting indoors.

[bascom]

Thanks, I'll take some practice shots tonight in P mode w/ISO 80 and see if that helps things out.
Did it help?