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dropoff
01-23-2008, 09:43 PM
I been waiting to see if XSi was going to be a major step up from the XTi before pulling the trigger and buying one, but it seems Canon just pandered to the masses ( Xsi has live view and a 2more mp than the xti). The one thing i was hoping for (more substantial grip) seems to have stayed unchanged.

The new Pentax entry level slr is pretty sexy though.

24Peter
01-23-2008, 10:04 PM
I been waiting to see if XSi was going to be a major step up from the XTi before pulling the trigger and buying one, but it seems Canon just pandered to the masses ( Xsi has live view and a 2more mp than the xti). The one thing i was hoping for (more substantial grip) seems to have stayed unchanged.

The new Pentax entry level slr is pretty sexy though.

Naw, looks about right. Wasn't expecting anything ground-breaking though with improved AF, 14 bit and Digic III, it will probably make very nice pics. And the grip is improved (finally!)

The Pentax K20D looks very nice. If they fixed their in-camera .jpgs, could be a very useful tool.

avi777
01-23-2008, 10:05 PM
The grip seems to be a little different as per reviews. It seems to be impressive right now, but then I remember when the H9 was released. It seemed impressive too. I would wait for a few months and a few more reviews before pronouncing a judgement or expressing an opinion. The will always be a few hitches in any new model. Over time these will be ironed out. But I dont think 2 MP is a big jump over the XTi. But then, it has a lot of other features which the XTi didn't have like spot metering, live view, etc. But I guess partial metering isn't too bad and do we need a live view really? But they fixed the issue about opening the card door. Guess it's priced a little high too - to be considered a entry level DSLR.

cdifoto
01-23-2008, 10:06 PM
The SD slot is the only thing that scares me. And it's not so much that the XSi has it, but moreso because I see it as a possible (albeit barely) sign that Canon will try to migrate all bodies to SD. I don't want that. If you want to give me an SD slot, give me CF too a la 1D II and up.

SynterX
01-23-2008, 10:06 PM
I'm getting one as soon as I can. I've had my XTi a few months and desperately want the Live View. I almost bought a 40D last night just to get that one feature. I find it very difficult to frame shots without a LCD view. I can't even believe this wasn't standard on all SLRs up to now. The extra MP mean nothing to me. I am a bit bummed about the new memory cards, I have a few hundred in CF already...and the new battery, of which I have 3 of the old style. But I just bought a nice lens (the 17-55), and will grab this body and battery grip as soon as BH has them. Exactly what I've been waiting for. I played around with the 40D for quite a bit, and I love it's size and feel. But, that 17-55 lens is waaaaay heavier than the kit. That, with a flash on the XTi already ways a ton to me. So the 40D with heavy lens and flash just seems too big for my non-pro use. The XTi size is a nice compromise really.

$800 for body, hopefully means $700 street, no?

24Peter
01-23-2008, 10:10 PM
The SD slot is the only thing that scares me. And it's not so much that the XSi has it, but moreso because I see it as a possible (albeit barely) sign that Canon will try to migrate all bodies to SD. I don't want that. If you want to give me an SD slot, give me CF too a la 1D II and up.

I doubt they'll go all SD on future pro/semi pro models - at least in the near term. CF is too entrenched in the pro camps, plus it is still way ahead in terms of capacity, no?

cdifoto
01-23-2008, 10:18 PM
I doubt they'll go all SD on future pro/semi pro models - at least in the near term. CF is too entrenched in the pro camps, plus it is still way ahead in terms of capacity, no?

Well, if they're sane they won't. I'd switch to Nikon for that reason alone. With a SD and CF in each slot of the 1D, I know which is easier to work with. I only touch the SD card if I have to. Otherwise it just takes care of the overflow until I can swap out CF.

Spookonthe8ball
01-23-2008, 10:24 PM
It didn't change the DLSR world or anything, but I do like the kit lens upgrade to a better IS lens. Body only, It will be fine, but not enough to make me buy one. The secure digital card will also be a downside for current "Old Rebel/Xti " owners. New buyers, it'll be ok if they don't currently have a lot of compact flash memory cards. Canon wants us to upgrade to the 40D:D
Spook

Rooz
01-23-2008, 10:31 PM
geez, tough crowd. you guys are aware that this is the entry model right ? what were y'all expecting ? the 40d has already been released if you want more. if anything the xsi makes the 40d look a little underdone to be honest.

btw: don's whats with you issue with SD, is that a technical issue ? i have CF now and i far prefer the SD that was in my d80. :confused:

cdifoto
01-23-2008, 10:33 PM
geez, tough crowd. you guys are aware that this is the entry model right ? what were y'all expecting ? the 40d has already been released if you want more. if anything the xsi makes the 40d look a little underdone to be honest.

btw: don's whats with you issue with SD, is that a technical issue ? i have CF now and i far prefer the SD that was in my d80. :confused:

I just find them to be too small to really work with in the course of a wedding. I can grab a CF card and swap it out easily. I fumble with the tiny SD. I also have 36GB of memory (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/cdifoto/gear/cf.jpg) that's pretty heavily weighted towards CF. I wouldn't want to have to change it out to SD anytime soon.

timmciglobal
01-23-2008, 10:41 PM
...

your not impressed? It does everything the 40D does sans the 6.5 FPS.

I'm VERY impressed actually. Spot metering, live view, dedicated ISO button now, slightly higher FPS, boost in megapixels (more is more), slight redesign, improved AF.

Honestly, for 899 with the 18-55 IS it's a steal.

Tim

timmciglobal
01-23-2008, 10:53 PM
Not to mention it's got a .87 viewfinder which is a big leap from the .80 it's had for a long time.

Honestly, outside of the 6.5 fps on 40d this just became my "pick" for people wanting their first dSLR providing the noise performance is in line with canon's past bodies (which I'd imagine it will be knowing canon)

D300 destroys the 40D spec wise and I'd say the Xsi makes the 40D an odd duck begging the question if a price drop for the 40D or a kit 40D for 1199 with 18-55 IS should be coming.

Tim

Fiasco
01-23-2008, 11:00 PM
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but honestly I never liked the idea of live view. I prefer to frame shots in the viewfinder.

The only thing I had hoped Canon would change would have been to make the 450D larger than the 350D & 400D. I just got rid of my 350D and got the D50 I have now because the 350D was just too small for my hands. Other than the size I really did like that camera.

timmciglobal
01-23-2008, 11:28 PM
I'm all for viewfinder framing in "most" situations but when your shooting a macro flower shot in a garden or an over the head shot that live view lets you get shots that simply take too much luck normally to get.

One of my favorite photos I've taken was a top down shot years ago with Pro1 of a bbq of someone grilling and it was only possible by using the LCD.

Tim

r3g
01-23-2008, 11:52 PM
I too was kinda expecting more from Canons XTi replacement but the XSi does look pretty nice. As Rooz said it is an entry level camera after all. Canon wants you to buy the 40D so they arent going to give you too any goods at the bottom of the line. IMO improved AF is the most important thing the XSi brings to the table.

downtrodden
01-24-2008, 12:11 AM
I'll weigh in here again too-

From the stand point of an upgrade from the XTi- i'm not very impressed with the new camera's specs, but that's all we have so far, we don't know how it will actually perform- so that could change.

But i am very impressed by the specs, Spot metering is a real nice addition that doesn't seem like a big deal, but if i didn't have spot metering, i'd be lost. they did change the grip a little it looks like and live view while not a must have- is a very nice feature and a handy tool to have in the tool bag and we all know why already.

Which brings me to being very impressed from the stand pount of someone just getting into dSLR photography, or wanting to upgrade from their super zoom to dSLR realm. I think it's an exciting time for cameras, particularly dSLR and competition is breeding some wonderful new offerings. I think this camera will convince a lot of people to go dSLR, where they may have been waiting to see if anything really catches their eye- finally a camera option that has all the toys a super zoom has- minus of course video and rotating LCD's (which i wouldn't be surprised to see on some SLRs sometime in the near future- and why not?)

This also means that Nikon will have to answer back- which is good news for EVERYBODY!

As for the SD vs. CF thing, i wouldn't mind SD taking over- i find SD personally easier to work with. both in my built in card readers, if i don't slide the CF card in just right, it won't go in. From any angle i can slide the SD cards in without a problem- and the SD cards are obviously smaller so they take up less room in my bag. I don't think SD will push CF aside anytime soon though- and i don't think replacing cards should be too much of an issue for most people, as most people don't have 36gbs of card space. :P That and the cost of memory is pretty damn good nowadays.

Oh well, that's just my opinion and i could be wrong. I wouldn't down play the value of Live View in an entry level SLR- especially at getting new people into the hobby and crating more competition.

Also, don't worry about the price either 899 msrp usually means 799 retail.and if not right away, wait a month or two and it will mean just that.

~Cory

faisal
01-24-2008, 12:19 AM
Live View is great IMO. Being a P&S guy for a very long time and just recently shifting to the DSLR arena I'd say the 450D seems like a good temptation....being able to take those overhead pictures would be simple....I'd have bought one if I had not bought the 400D. But knowing how the market works here, I'd have to wait a year for this to get officially released here....

All the upgrades sound great to me [on paper that is] but the change in battery and SD cards really puts me off. I know SD cards cost lesser but I hate handling small cards. I always tend to misplace them (I have half a dozen of those Sony memory cards).

Multi-shot self-timer mode, is it something like a burst mode with a timer???

downtrodden
01-24-2008, 12:29 AM
PS. Also, who knows, maybe Canon will announce you can go 6FPS with the optional battery grip- then this would be a 40D killer, full and true!

Ok, it was supposed to be funny and crass and a small stab about all the rumbling about why a camera would be faster with a battery grip etc, only i couldn't think of anything clever-er to say. someone help me out here.

droopy1592
01-24-2008, 02:18 AM
I'm wondering if the 450d will have worse ISO400-1600 performance because of the extra 2MP, plus there is no 3200 (I really wanted that!). I like the spot metering, the stainless hotshoe mount, the larger LCD, the live vew, 14bit raw, and digic3, but that's about it.

avi777
01-24-2008, 02:22 AM
PS. Also, who knows, maybe Canon will announce you can go 6FPS with the optional battery grip- then this would be a 40D killer, full and true!

Ok, it was supposed to be funny and crass and a small stab about all the rumbling about why a camera would be faster with a battery grip etc, only i couldn't think of anything clever-er to say. someone help me out here.

That was funny. I thought you were gonna say a firmware upgrade might do that. who knows, it might turn into a full frame camera too

faisal
01-24-2008, 02:39 AM
That was funny. I thought you were gonna say a firmware upgrade might do that. who knows, it might turn into a full frame camera too

you wish.... :p

I wonder if you can use the BG-E3 with this...that way we could use the other older batteries...

EDIT: I just saw it on the home page...its got a new battery grip BG-E5...

cwphoto
01-24-2008, 04:09 AM
Looks good to me, pretty much what I expected.

Nickcanada
01-24-2008, 04:55 AM
Looks good to me too.

I think it's funny that almost everyone starts by saying something negative about it but then does the "...but it does have this feature that I really like"

coldrain
01-24-2008, 05:31 AM
Canon says that the noise and dynamic range behavior have improved over the 10mp sensor, which is pretty impressive. And 12mp, that is Sony A700 and Nikon D300 territory.

Improved 9 point AF, it was already not too shabby in the 400D.

14 bit RAW.

Live view, with the extra option of contrast detect AF with the sensor, like the Panasonic L10.

Spot metering (so now a choice of 9% and 4% metering).

Bigger view finder.

Kit lens with good optics and IS.

A pretty impressive, feature filled and complete camera, if you ask me!

No idea what people would want in it to not be disappointed? A bigger camera with a 20/30/40D wheel on the back and glass prism?
That camera already exists, it is called the canon EOS 40D...

The one negative thing for me: In the USA it still has the same wanky name... "Digital Rebel XSi"....

Nickcanada
01-24-2008, 06:19 AM
Canon says that the noise and dynamic range behavior have improved over the 10mp sensor, which is pretty impressive. And 12mp, that is Sony A700 and Nikon D300 territory.

Improved 9 point AF, it was already not too shabby in the 400D.

14 bit RAW.

Live view, with the extra option of contrast detect AF with the sensor, like the Panasonic L10.

Spot metering (so now a choice of 9% and 4% metering).

Bigger view finder.

Kit lens with good optics and IS.

A pretty impressive, feature filled and complete camera, if you ask me!

No idea what people would want in it to not be disappointed? A bigger camera with a 20/30/40D wheel on the back and glass prism?
That camera already exists, it is called the canon EOS 40D...

The one negative thing for me: In the USA it still has the same wanky name... "Digital Rebel XSi"....


So you thinking of upgrading?

FLiPMaRC
01-24-2008, 06:33 AM
:) Looks good to me. I hope to get one as soon as it comes out :cool: Unlike some of you, I like the fact that it uses SD. My new laptop only has an SD slot ... LOL! Alas, the wait is over. I'm glad I didn't pull the trigger when the XTi/400D's price went down the last few weeks :) I'm now hoping the 16GB SDHC's price will come down a bit between now and then :)

GaryS
01-24-2008, 06:41 AM
I'm not disappointed.... It seems like a great entry level camera for Canon.

This camera is not supposed to be an upgrade path for XTi owners (thats the 40D's job), its supposed to be the competitor to the Nikon D40(x). So for the entry level purchaser, the Canon has IS, LV, 12mp, 9 AF points....

As an XTi owner, this camera doesn't make me think about buying it. The only feature that I find interesting is the LV. And even then, only a little bit.

But I have a friend who is shopping, and for him, the XSi it is!

JMWallace
01-24-2008, 06:51 AM
If I was in the same spot now that I was when I first posted the question (a long time ago) about Xt or 30D ---> now we'll update that to XSi or 40D, I would honestly say I might be more inclined to head in the XSi direction.

Looks to me like, along with a 5D MK II (or what ever), there needs to be a 40Dn released also.

coldrain
01-24-2008, 07:03 AM
So you thinking of upgrading?
Somewhere in future, yes. But I do not know when yet... other things have priority. And if I upgrade, I think I may end up with a 450D. Maybe a 40D, but I do like the compactness as you know, for taking the camera along.

On an unrelated note...

I was looking at some prototype sample photos from the new Pentax K20D with its new Samsung 14.x MP CMOS sensor... some are mega yuck(!), while other shots do look OK (apart from the very apparent green/magenta CA and vignetting of that kit lens).
Samples are so bad that it is hard to get an idea of how this new CMOS performs...
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews_pentax_k20d_dubai.php

The official Pentax samples look better though:
http://www.digital.pentax.co.jp/ja/35mm/k20d/ex.html
Its ISO 200 basically looks like the ISO 400 on my old 350D.
Some aliasing problems though?

So, the new Sony A200 and Pentax K200D both offer the 10.2 mp Sony CCD we already know from the Nikon D200/80/40x, Pentax K10D and Sony A100. They both do not offer live view (which would be impossible with that CCD). The K200D does offer a sealed body.
Seems like the Canon is very competitive in this group, and also competitive with the Pentax K20D.
Lets see if the new Nikon will offer a 10.2 mp CCD, or a 12.x mp Sony CMOS with live view?

The 450D seems to perform quite nicely, judging by the two samples Canon japan has on their website.
http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/eosd/kissx2/sample/html/sample1_j.html

michaelb
01-24-2008, 07:15 AM
D300 destroys the 40D spec wise and I'd say the Xsi makes the 40D an odd duck begging the question if a price drop for the 40D or a kit 40D for 1199 with 18-55 IS should be coming.

Tim

I would have to disagree with this.

The 40D still has a significantly bigger VF, which is a big deal to me, plus the rear wheel and the multicontroller "joystick" make this a much more enjoyable camera to use c/w the XXXD series (once you see how easy it is to change focus points with the mulitcontroller, you will never go back!!). The Xsi will have great IQ, of that I am sure, but the 40D is simply easier and more enjoyable to use, IMO.

Zoinac
01-24-2008, 09:27 AM
This Camera looks to me to be mostly a mega pixel release. However, it still seems like a good body. With the price being what it is. I'm no longer looking at buying a 40D... well, at least not at it's current price.

Only problem is that I hate the tiny size of the X series. Hopefully, this announcement isn't going to hinder the 5D replacement I've been praying to the Canon gods for.

On the note of the 5D though, this new body kinda matches the 40D in specs (aside from FPS), and being that you can now get 12mp for $800. It would lead me to think that what replaces the 5D is likely to priced similarly to the 5D is now.... if nothing else, I can dream :D

fractalgfx
01-24-2008, 09:44 AM
I'm gonna wait on the 50D.

michaelb
01-24-2008, 09:51 AM
....It would lead me to think that what replaces the 5D is likely to priced similarly to the 40D is now.... if nothing else, I can dream :D
Keep dreaming; FF isn't going to be that cheap just yet.

coldrain
01-24-2008, 10:03 AM
This Camera looks to me to be mostly a mega pixel release. However, it still seems like a good body. With the price being what it is. I'm no longer looking at buying a 40D... well, at least not at it's current price.
Mostly a mega pixel release? I do not understand reactions like this...

The camera addressed niggles some people have with its older siblings:
- differently shaped grip with more tactile material
- 4% spot metering
- bigger view finder
- ISO adjustable while looking through view finder

It also adds a lot of enhancements:
- improved AF system
- 14 bit RAW data
- highlight and dynamic range image enhance modes
- higher resolution
- live view, with bigger display and two AF methods

A LOT is enhanced in this new camera.... with the 12mp being the least important.

Nickcanada
01-24-2008, 10:09 AM
This Camera looks to me to be mostly a mega pixel release. However, it still seems like a good body. With the price being what it is. I'm no longer looking at buying a 40D... well, at least not at it's current price.

Only problem is that I hate the tiny size of the X series. Hopefully, this announcement isn't going to hinder the 5D replacement I've been praying to the Canon gods for.

On the note of the 5D though, this new body kinda matches the 40D in specs (aside from FPS), and being that you can now get 12mp for $800. It would lead me to think that what replaces the 5D is likely to priced similarly to the 40D is now.... if nothing else, I can dream :D


What?!?!

What were you expecting? GPS, night vision, full frame, medium format, and large format all in the size of the G9? :confused:

Zoinac
01-24-2008, 10:45 AM
What?!?!

What were you expecting? GPS, night vision, full frame, medium format, and large format all in the size of the G9? :confused:

Let's not get our panties in a knot over semantics. I'll rephrase to sound more enthralled by a mediocre increase in features...

There is nothing newfor this camera except the 12 MP, 14bit sensor. Everything else is just taken from other models. (which is typically how the entry models evolve)
Some things are nice, a bigger view finder, nicer grip, live view. But these tings relate to the body. Things like seeing the ISO in the view finder when you change it? Those are minute software upgrades that don't require a model increase.

Why couldn't they offer a software upgrade to the XTi allowing a custom function so as when you press the ISO button, and roll the wheel the shutter speed indicator inside the viewfinder displays a changable ISO? That requires no hardware changes...

When you already use a 35zone metering, adding spot metering is also a software issue, and could have been done (maybe not to 4% accuracy) with a simple upgrade.

I feel the Xsi is unnecessary as a camera, but more as a typical entry model small step to attract and compete forconsumers.

GaryS
01-24-2008, 10:50 AM
Zoinac, camera are just consumer electronics like DVD players... The manufacturers have to keep upgrading, adding features etc to compete. It doesn't mean that everyone who has an XTi has to run out and buy the new one to take good photos... It just means that to compete for the first time buyer, you have to have the same or better features.

Canon/Nikon/Olympus etc can't just sit back and do nothing, new models are the game.

I think this is a good release... One that will force Nikon et al to update their entry level models to compete.

AdamW
01-24-2008, 11:04 AM
What?!?!

What were you expecting? GPS, night vision, full frame, medium format, and large format all in the size of the G9? :confused:

If that also came with anti-gravity image stabilization, I'd buy one.



:rolleyes:

Nickcanada
01-24-2008, 11:17 AM
If that also came with anti-gravity, in-body image stabilization, I'd buy one.



:rolleyes:


There I fixed it for ya!

JTL
01-24-2008, 11:17 AM
If that also came with anti-gravity image stabilization, I'd buy one.



:rolleyes:Nah...multi-dimensional time shift...now that's the ticket! Although you'd still need a third party Heisenberg compensator...

Rhys
01-24-2008, 11:35 AM
It seems to be another "fix" for something that wasn't broken in the first place.

I can see a general shift for amateur cameras toward SD. Quite honestly I couldn't care less whether I use SD or CF. My wife's P&S takes XD which is a bit on the small side. All our laptops have SD slots but not CF so we need to buy another reader in order to use SD. My PDA takes SD. It makes sense to use SD although I would not want to re-invest in SD. Having said that my investment in CF is not that high. I won't buy memory cards that cost more than $30 so while I have quite an investment (10x 128mb, 1x 512mb, 2x 1GB, 2x 4GB) it's not that massive. The 128MB cards cost me about $500 in 2003. I think my most expensive card was the 1GB I bought for $115 in 2005. It's kinda scary when you add it all up!

I can't see why they chose to change the battery from the NB-2LH to the new one nor can I see why they chose to change the battery grip.

I don't know whether the dust-reduction system works. I don't have it on my XT nor on my 30D.

Nickcanada
01-24-2008, 11:42 AM
It seems to be another "fix" for something that wasn't broken in the first place.

I can see a general shift for amateur cameras toward SD. Quite honestly I couldn't care less whether I use SD or CF. My wife's P&S takes XD which is a bit on the small side. All our laptops have SD slots but not CF so we need to buy another reader in order to use SD. My PDA takes SD. It makes sense to use SD although I would not want to re-invest in SD. Having said that my investment in CF is not that high. I won't buy memory cards that cost more than $30 so while I have quite an investment (10x 128mb, 1x 512mb, 2x 1GB, 2x 4GB) it's not that massive. The 128MB cards cost me about $500 in 2003. I think my most expensive card was the 1GB I bought for $115 in 2005. It's kinda scary when you add it all up!

I can't see why they chose to change the battery from the NB-2LH to the new one nor can I see why they chose to change the battery grip.

I don't know whether the dust-reduction system works. I don't have it on my XT nor on my 30D.

Damn, over $5000 on CF cards! That's no small investment!


lol








I know that's not what you meant. ;)

GaryS
01-24-2008, 11:43 AM
I prefer SD. They are more durable (no pins to bend), cheaper and more plentiful in stores. CF's are old tech now and SLR's are one of the last devices left using them.

When you sell your old camera, just throw your CFs in with the deal!

erichlund
01-24-2008, 11:56 AM
Let's not get our panties in a knot over semantics. I'll rephrase to sound more enthralled by a mediocre increase in features...

There is nothing newfor this camera except the 12 MP, 14bit sensor. Everything else is just taken from other models. (which is typically how the entry models evolve)
Some things are nice, a bigger view finder, nicer grip, live view. But these tings relate to the body. Things like seeing the ISO in the view finder when you change it? Those are minute software upgrades that don't require a model increase.

The LEDs that make up the display in the viewfinder are very specific in what they are able to display. It is not a software upgrade. You would have to change the LED panel in the viewfinder, at the very least.

Why couldn't they offer a software upgrade to the XTi allowing a custom function so as when you press the ISO button, and roll the wheel the shutter speed indicator inside the viewfinder displays a changable ISO? That requires no hardware changes...

When you already use a 35zone metering, adding spot metering is also a software issue, and could have been done (maybe not to 4% accuracy) with a simple upgrade.

Spot metering is not a software upgrade. You have to have the appropriate sensors in the meter to do it.

I feel the Xsi is unnecessary as a camera, but more as a typical entry model small step to attract and compete forconsumers.

I agree with Rooz, and God forbid, Coldrain. You guys are a tough crowd. The 12mp is necessary to be competitive. By all accounts I've read, the 14bit is not making a big difference in image quality, so until I see differently, I'd discount that, but they still have to do it. I'm surprised they did not incorporate the "new" resolution in LCD panels, as included on the Sony and Nikon recent releases, but perhaps they didn't want to outshine the 40D. However, the key to this release is usability. Slightly better grip, bigger viewfinder with ISO display, and spot meter. The last three should be especially welcome. Once you learn to use a spot meter, you'll wonder how you ever did without it.

If I were not invested, and were buying my first camera, this would be seriously competitive for my entry level dollars. (Just don't ask me about the size ;)).

As an aside, if you already have an XTi, why would you even consider upgrading to an XSi? Entry level to entry level is not an upgrade. That's an awful lot of money to spend on a parallel move. Just go buy a nice lens, or save a few more [dollars | yen | euros | *] and upgrade to a 40D, a much nicer handling camera.

faisal
01-24-2008, 11:59 AM
If that also came with anti-gravity image stabilization, I'd buy one.



:rolleyes:

....I'd like a cloaking device and warp speed as well.........[yup, I'm a 'star trek' fan :cool: ]

erichlund
01-24-2008, 12:07 PM
....I'd like a cloaking device and warp speed as well.........[yup, I'm a 'star trek' fan :cool: ]

The real question is, how come the Enterprise did not have a cloaking device after they stole it from the Romulans and Scotty got it working? They used it once to escape, and then it completely disappears from the show.

Rhys
01-24-2008, 12:12 PM
Eric, I agree. The XSi is not a worthy upgrade from an XTi nor from an XT.

When I started pro photography, I started with film cameras. Recently (3 years ago) I got an XT and when I got my 30D I very nearly got an XT instead. I actually ordered an XT then had a change of mind and rang B&H to change it from an XT to a 30D. While I find the controls easier to use on the 30D than on the XT, I still feel that I would be able to do most things using the XT. The difference between the two was about $600 at the time.

Would I buy another entry-level camera? Well, considering I feel that the 30D/40D and the XT/XTi/XSi are all entry level cameras, probably not. If I were to purchase another, more professional camera then it'd be the 5D or the 1D. It'd definitely be full frame and then I could forget about using the cheap EF-S lenses. I almost ordered a 5D but chickened out when I thought of the price. I really, really don't like spending money.

Rhys
01-24-2008, 12:13 PM
The real question is, how come the Enterprise did not have a cloaking device after they stole it from the Romulans and Scotty got it working? They used it once to escape, and then it completely disappears from the show.

Perhaps they couldn't find it again :p

faisal
01-24-2008, 12:24 PM
The real question is, how come the Enterprise did not have a cloaking device after they stole it from the Romulans and Scotty got it working? They used it once to escape, and then it completely disappears from the show.

I think they sold it to Sony who have been using them on their cameras to cloak the noise...but it doesn't seem to work.... :p

cdifoto
01-24-2008, 12:38 PM
I prefer SD. They are more durable (no pins to bend), cheaper and more plentiful in stores. CF's are old tech now and SLR's are one of the last devices left using them.

When you sell your old camera, just throw your CFs in with the deal!

The pins are in the camera and reader, not the card. CF cards are more durable because they're made of more substantial plastic. I can snap an SD card in half with my fingers. I can't do the same to a CF card. Anyone with half a brain can keep the pins from getting bent in their camera and reader. It's carelessness and/or forcing a card in the wrong way that screws those things up.

AdamW
01-24-2008, 12:44 PM
There I fixed it for ya!

Yeah! Then I could use it as a jet-pack....

coldrain
01-24-2008, 12:48 PM
Pro's prefer CF cards, just because of their size. Small is irritating. Try handling them (SD) when your fingers are cold. Also more vulnerable, easier to lose.

The only advantage of SD over CF is for the camera designers when they have to try and fit everything in the confines one a camera body.

Rhys
01-24-2008, 12:49 PM
The pins are in the camera and reader, not the card. CF cards are more durable because they're made of more substantial plastic. I can snap an SD card in half with my fingers. I can't do the same to a CF card. Anyone with half a brain can keep the pins from getting bent in their camera and reader. It's carelessness and/or forcing a card in the wrong way that screws those things up.

I used to use SM cards and they were fragile. On the other hand I could slip more into a small wallet in my shirt pocket.

I don't know about SD cards but with XD cards it's very easy to get them in slightly wrongly and then when you power up they become unreadable and no data recovery software I have will extract meaningful data from them. I had that with my mother-in-law's XD card.

I have two SD cards - not sure where one is but the other's in my PDA. I like the size and the fact most things now have SD readers. Whether the stuff I have will read SDHD is another matter entirely.

coldrain
01-24-2008, 12:53 PM
I'm surprised they did not incorporate the "new" resolution in LCD panels, as included on the Sony and Nikon recent releases, but perhaps they didn't want to outshine the 40D.
Another very possible reason is:
Canon can get 30 frames per second in live view. The Nikon D300 does 15 frames per second. Since the D300 has to shift 4 times more video data to the display, that probably is the reason for the low frame rate.

I can not be sure, but that may be a consideration in choosing the lower res display. Also maybe the price of the displays may be a consideration, the 450D is $600 cheaper after all. I don't have a Sony parts pricelist at hand though :D.

coldrain
01-24-2008, 01:40 PM
I can't see why they chose to change the battery from the NB-2LH to the new one nor can I see why they chose to change the battery grip.

I don't know whether the dust-reduction system works. I don't have it on my XT nor on my 30D.
Well, the new battery lasts longer. Also it is flatter, as far as I can see. So, the reason would be that the bigger screen + live view necessitate a new battery design, to be able to still get a decent number of shots per charge.

Naturally that then to goes for the battery grip.

Yes, the dust reduction works. You will need to clean less than without it (like with my 350D). But still, dust will appear at times, and it is less effective than the Olympus dust shake system.

GaryS
01-24-2008, 01:48 PM
Sorry Don, you are right. Nobody ever bends their CF pings unless they are stupid. CF cards never get dropped in the dirt either, jamming the holes with crud that cannot be cleaned out...

You are getting as cranky as the other Don....

Rhys
01-24-2008, 02:16 PM
Well, the new battery lasts longer. Also it is flatter, as far as I can see. So, the reason would be that the bigger screen + live view necessitate a new battery design, to be able to still get a decent number of shots per charge.

Naturally that then to goes for the battery grip.

Yes, the dust reduction works. You will need to clean less than without it (like with my 350D). But still, dust will appear at times, and it is less effective than the Olympus dust shake system.

All they needed to do was to produce a longer-lasting XT battery. That's no biggie. As far as the battery grip goes, all they needed was a different drawer for the BGE3 - not that I'm a great fan of battery grips any more.

Rhys
01-24-2008, 02:17 PM
Sorry Don, you are right. Nobody ever bends their CF pings unless they are stupid. CF cards never get dropped in the dirt either, jamming the holes with crud that cannot be cleaned out...

You are getting as cranky as the other Don....

Over the past few years I've dropped a few CF cards and never had a problem with the holes getting blocked as I simply blow the muck off them!

erichlund
01-24-2008, 02:50 PM
Sorry Don, you are right. Nobody ever bends their CF pings unless they are stupid. CF cards never get dropped in the dirt either, jamming the holes with crud that cannot be cleaned out...

You are getting as cranky as the other Don....

Considering one of the torture tests that they survived was to immerse them in boiling water, unless you glued them shut with epoxy, I'm not sure that you could not clean them. CF cards are bullet proof (No, coldrain, not literally). The pins in devices can be bent, but frankly, that's less likely than damaging the exposed connectors on the SD cards has proven to be. I've heard from a number of people who have damaged those.

Another factor: For some reason I have devices that limit my SD cards to 2GB. I have no idea why (I'm sure I could find out with a little research). However, as far as I know, even in my oldest device that takes CF, I can use any capacity (all my CF slots and both I and II compatible). I can even use the new UDMA cards, though my older devices will not take advantage of the higher speed.

Both card types will get the job done, and if the industry forces us to all go to SD, I won't cry myself to sleep, but I still prefer the robustness of CF.

Oops, I think we have gotten a little off topic.

SynterX
01-24-2008, 03:27 PM
I got to addin' up some numbers, and by the time I buy 2 additional batteries, and new SD cards to replace my CF, I'd be within $200 of a 40D. So, assuming the XSi doesn't have superior features because it's newer than the 40D, I might actually prefer the 40D. I'm liking the larger size now that I spent some more time with it. It feels better in my hand. The heavy lens weight doesn't seem to matter so much...

No doubt the XSi is a better camera than the XTi in my opinion. A no-brainer for $800.

Rhys
01-24-2008, 04:43 PM
I just checked on NB-2LH batteries. You can get 1,500 Mah for $50 here (http://www.interstatebatteries.com/estore/search.asp?details=1&bnd=Canon&searchtype=Y&mscssid=TP09R8EXXWJB8JLMRNRLT7L1JGGF62G2&Ntt=nb%2D2lh&N=0&Dx=mode+matchallany&mdl=NB2LH&part_number=CAM1550&Nty=0&D=nb%2D2lh&Nu=Part+Number&Ntx=mode+matchallany&part_desc=Canon+NB2LH+replacement+battery&Ns=product+Type%7C0%7C%7CRank%7C1&Ntk=SearchGroup&js=1). That makes a difference - 50% more power than Canon's XSi battery.

I can't really imagine where live view would be useful. Dust reduction I can see a point to but as the dust is simply displaced by the vibration to someplace else inside the mirror box I still feel a blower is a better solution overall.

fionndruinne
01-24-2008, 05:16 PM
Huh, well... this is just one Nikonian talking, but... if the live view and 12MP sound like crowd-pleasers... it's not like Canon hasn't done that with their entry-level camera before. XTi maybe?

(admittedly I'm ignoring the decent arrangement of evolutionary updates, but we all knew they would happen anyway.)

SpecialK
01-24-2008, 05:29 PM
I been waiting to see if XSi was going to be a major step up from the XTi before pulling the trigger and buying one, but it seems Canon just pandered to the masses ( Xsi has live view and a 2more mp than the xti). The one thing i was hoping for (more substantial grip) seems to have stayed unchanged.

The new Pentax entry level slr is pretty sexy though.

Don't mean to hijack the thread but I have "last year's" entry level Pentax, and neither new Pentax compels me to get one. For the money, the now-cheap KTenD is a better value, I think...

OK, I'll go read about the XSi :-)

downtrodden
01-24-2008, 05:55 PM
I don't think anyone here should pass judgement on the new camera until we first see how well it performs with the lens cap supplied. We need to know if the camera will require lens cap upgrade, or if the one supplied will perform as expected.

droopy1592
01-24-2008, 06:29 PM
I don't think anyone here should pass judgement on the new camera until we first see how well it performs with the lens cap supplied. We need to know if the camera will require lens cap upgrade, or if the one supplied will perform as expected. Lol sounds like your talking more about the S3-S5 upgrade than the XTi-XSi upgrade.

Rooz
01-24-2008, 06:36 PM
The 40D still has a significantly bigger VF, which is a big deal to me, plus the rear wheel and the multicontroller "joystick" make this a much more enjoyable camera to use c/w the XXXD series (once you see how easy it is to change focus points with the mulitcontroller, you will never go back!!). The Xsi will have great IQ, of that I am sure, but the 40D is simply easier and more enjoyable to use, IMO.

i couldn;t agree more michael.

people whinging about the xsi need to remember what it costs. people want the features and spec of a 40d at the price of the xsi. its not going to...nor should it happen.

its spec'd perfectly for the entry level...and then some. i awill also strongly disagree that this is not a worthy upgrade from an XT. you must be kidding. :rolleyes:

if past form goes to plan, there is a clear path here in dslr bodies. the the xt and d40x getting dropped off the radar probably.

d30, (d40)
xsi, (xti)
d90, (d80)
40d, (30d)
d300, (d200)
6d, (5d)

this will continue what i consider almost collusion by the big 2. they are not competeing on price and i wonder how long that will go on for with sony, pentax and olympus getting stronger as time goes by.

C&N have created small sub-categories in dslr categories intentionally imo so as to almost minimise a price war cos they can argue that each step up can be justifed by bringing more features and/ or better build or whatever but the performance being relatively similar.

my bitch about the latest and greatest in dslr "features" is 14bit. this is a gimick in the ABSOLUTE sense. 14bit take much more memory and takes longer to adjust in PP cos the files are much larger and it does NOT offer an improvement in IQ, well at least not on an aps-c sensor.

this really pisses me off cos on paper it suggests it does and i'm sure its going to be a selling point but in reality there isn't a single shooting circumstance that i have tried side-by-side comparisons where 14bit offers visibly better performance that 12bit.

Nickcanada
01-24-2008, 07:50 PM
i couldn;t agree more michael.

people whinging about the xsi need to remember what it costs. people want the features and spec of a 40d at the price of the xsi. its not going to...nor should it happen.

its spec'd perfectly for the entry level...and then some. i awill also strongly disagree that this is not a worthy upgrade from an XT. you must be kidding. :rolleyes:

if past form goes to plan, there is a clear path here in dslr bodies. the the xt and d40x getting dropped off the radar probably.

d30, (d40)
xsi, (xti)
d90, (d80)
40d, (30d)
d300, (d200)
6d, (5d)

this will continue what i consider almost collusion by the big 2. they are not competeing on price and i wonder how long that will go on for with sony, pentax and olympus getting stronger as time goes by.

C&N have created small sub-categories in dslr categories intentionally imo so as to almost minimise a price war cos they can argue that each step up can be justifed by bringing more features and/ or better build or whatever but the performance being relatively similar.

my bitch about the latest and greatest in dslr "features" is 14bit. this is a gimick in the ABSOLUTE sense. 14bit take much more memory and takes longer to adjust in PP cos the files are much larger and it does NOT offer an improvement in IQ, well at least not on an aps-c sensor.

this really pisses me off cos on paper it suggests it does and i'm sure its going to be a selling point but in reality there isn't a single shooting circumstance that i have tried side-by-side comparisons where 14bit offers visibly better performance that 12bit.

Where are you getting this information about 14bit being useless? Monitors only show up to 12 bit so there is no way you could tell, but if you were to print identical images out on a larger scale that is when the difference would be noticed I would imagine. I personally have not seen the difference but I would be interested in researching this further. Also doesn't the 14 bit processing give us better highlight control and a higher dynamic range? I could be talking out of my ass here because I'm not very well informed but that is what I have come to understand about 14 bit.

Rooz
01-24-2008, 08:10 PM
Where are you getting this information about 14bit being useless? Monitors only show up to 12 bit so there is no way you could tell, but if you were to print identical images out on a larger scale that is when the difference would be noticed I would imagine. I personally have not seen the difference but I would be interested in researching this further. Also doesn't the 14 bit processing give us better highlight control and a higher dynamic range? I could be talking out of my ass here because I'm not very well informed but that is what I have come to understand about 14 bit.

i'm sure people will be able to give you reseach in spades about 14bit vs 12bit. they may even produce the odd studio-type pixel peeping test aswell. and yes, i agree with you in principal when looking at 14vs12bit on PAPER, it should yield better results...more infomation etc etc etc (it was one thing i was quite excited about with the d300), but i'm not talking about "on paper" on in processing megabytes and thingamegigs...i'm talking about REAL differences in the field, and there are none. i'm not talking minimal here...i'm talking NONE. zip, nada, bugger all, sweet FA.

people talk about MP meaning bugger all difference but the diff in resiolving power of more MP has been clearly evident even from 10-12mp from my d80-d300 with extreme crops, (eg: the moon). so i can understand the MP thing to a modest degree. but not the 14bit thing.

my "information" comes from what us dopey non-tech guys do. ;) ie: experimeting between the 2 modes and taking identical images under identical circumstances. i've even run this past guys with 40d's and they are of the same opinion..."useless". i have specifically used 14bit where DR was a "critical factor" aswell to give it he best opportunity to outdo 12bit but still, i see no difference at all.

mind you; i have never printed a 14bit vs 12bit sample and given your info on monitors maybe not picking up 14bit then maybe if i print them i could potentially see that there is a difference. i may try that to be sure. :)

cwphoto
01-24-2008, 08:21 PM
i'm sure people will be able to give you reseach in spades about 14bit vs 12bit. they may even produce the odd studio-type pixel peeping test aswell. and yes, i agree with you in principal when looking at 14vs12bit on PAPER, it should yield better results...more infomation etc etc etc (it was one thing i was quite excited about with the d300), but i'm not talking about "on paper" on in processing megabytes and thingamegigs...i'm talking about REAL differences in the field, and there are none. i'm not talking minimal here...i'm talking NONE. zip, nada, bugger all, sweet FA.

people talk about MP meaning bugger all difference but the diff in resiolving power of more MP has been clearly evident even from 10-12mp from my d80-d300 with extreme crops, (eg: the moon). so i can understand the MP thing to a modest degree. but not the 14bit thing.

my "information" comes from what us dopey non-tech guys do. ;) ie: experimeting between the 2 modes and taking identical images under identical circumstances. i've even run this past guys with 40d's and they are of the same opinion..."useless". i have specifically used 14bit where DR was a "critical factor" aswell to give it he best opportunity to outdo 12bit but still, i see no difference at all.

mind you; i have never printed a 14bit vs 12bit sample and given your info on monitors maybe not picking up 14bit then maybe if i print them i could potentially see that there is a difference. i may try that to be sure. :)

That's an interesting commentary.

I was under the impression that the extra 2-bits helped in shadow detail - particulary when pulling up an under-exposed image in RAW.

I can't really quantify the results on my camera as I don't have an option to select 12-bit, but the images certainly are a lot more salvageable under the above conditions on this new camera.

Whether that is due to 14-bit or other improvements made from the EOS-1D Mark II N is anyone's guess.

Rooz
01-24-2008, 08:31 PM
I was under the impression that the extra 2-bits helped in shadow detail - particulary when pulling up an under-exposed image in RAW.

something else i haven't tried in great detail. i'll try that too. i'm certainly not suggesting my opinions are final, conclusive or in any way technically adequate. it's not like I WANT it to be useless or would take any pleasure from proving it was rubbish lol...but from my experience so far, it is just that...useless.

i even posted a thread about it a couple of months ago asking people to prove to me why i should shoot in 14bit vs 12bit and to show me some practical examples of where the 14bit image produced better quality. no responses.

i would certainly believe that any improvements you're experiencing are far more due to sensor improvements, metering, resolving power and colour rendition rather than 14bit. i would love for someone to prove me wrong so i could take advantage of a feature i had originally thought would be invaluable.

TheObiJuan
01-24-2008, 10:48 PM
For the price, very impressed!

coldrain
01-25-2008, 04:25 AM
something else i haven't tried in great detail. i'll try that too. i'm certainly not suggesting my opinions are final, conclusive or in any way technically adequate. it's not like I WANT it to be useless or would take any pleasure from proving it was rubbish lol...but from my experience so far, it is just that...useless.

i even posted a thread about it a couple of months ago asking people to prove to me why i should shoot in 14bit vs 12bit and to show me some practical examples of where the 14bit image produced better quality. no responses.

i would certainly believe that any improvements you're experiencing are far more due to sensor improvements, metering, resolving power and colour rendition rather than 14bit. i would love for someone to prove me wrong so i could take advantage of a feature i had originally thought would be invaluable.
I do not know yet if the 14 bits mode of the Nikon D300 actually offers a bigger dynamic range compared to the 12 bit mode.

The thing you have to remember is that IF it does, it will mean that you have the possibility to go lighter and darker than the 12 bits mode. Or, you have the ability to go in smaller steps between the light and the dark.

But, can you see that in a print? No of course not. You can not even see a real difference between an 8bit TIFF print and a 16 bit tiff print from a standard 12 bit RAW conversion. The gain is NOT in the straight to paper print, but in the room you have with post processing. Bringing out details in shadows, nuances in saturated reds, greens and blues, details in what otherwise would look like blown highlights, much more room in white balance adjustments... THAT is where the advances lay.

With the 40D vs the 30D, the dynamic range increase is significant. With the 1D MK III vs the 1D mk II(N), the 1D MK III does even seem to be more dymanic in is colours, its blacks, in prints and JPEG output.

From dpreview (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos40d/page20.asp) :

The EOS 40D produced a fairly consistent nine stops (around 9 EV) of dynamic range from ISO 100 to 1600 dropping to 7.4 EV at ISO 3200 (due to shadow noise). While these are higher figures (by some two thirds of a stop) than we are used to seeing from most other digital SLRs the EOS 40D's improvement is in shadow range, highlight range (that above middle gray) still clipping at around 3.4 EV. We can make some assumption that this improved shadow range is thanks to the new 14-bit processing pipeline.
Usable range from the 30D: 8.4 EV
Usable range from the 40D: 9.1 EV
Usable range from the D200: 8.2 EV
Usable range from the K10D: 7.3 EV

So, it does seem like the 40D does have quite an increase in dynamic range.

Rooz
01-25-2008, 04:39 AM
i see, now i understand. so, like CW says, it only makes a difference when you are trying to "save" a shot in PP ? if that is the case, i stand corrected. maybe it does have a use after all...for like 1% of shots anyway. lol

coldrain
01-25-2008, 04:43 AM
i see, now i understand. so, like CW says, it only makes a difference when you are trying to "save" a shot in PP ? if that is the case, i stand corrected. maybe it does have a use after all...for like 1% of shots anyway. lol
Yes, the extra dynamic range is not always needed. As you have noticed, you have made some excellent photos with your 12 bit D80 too. And I can't always complain about my 350D's results either.

But yes, at times I do run into its limits... and then the 14bit data from a 40D or 1D mkIII would give a bit more play.

Rooz
01-25-2008, 04:58 AM
well i havent bothered to shoot in 14bit since i ran those tests at around 500 clicks and i'm now at 4000. the files are just too huge. even a 12bit RAW image is i think 19mb which i get the shits about on occasion aswell.

in my ignorance of what 14bit did, (and does), i had originally thought that it would make a much more significant difference in a heck of alot more of my shots. but, it's nice to know that it serves some purpose.

even more appealing is i will memorise that information and tell my friend with the 40d that despite all his experience, he's quite obviously an idiot for not understanding what 14bit means. THAT gives me the greatest amount of joy. lol :p

erichlund
01-25-2008, 07:35 AM
One thing I would go back to is this 12 bit thing with monitors. Every video card I have is set for 32bit color. Now, I haven't looked at the specs for the monitors themselves, but are we sure that was an accurate statement?

Rooz,
Are you using a form of physical calibration with your monitor. The differences in subtlety I've seen on my monitors since I physically calibrated them is nothing short of amazing. I agree that most are not really seeing a huge, visible, difference in image quality with 14 bit, but it remains to be seen if it really will be of benefit in post processing. If you cannot see the difference, then possibly not.

14 bit will not have any affect on dynamic range. It will only have an affect on how the available dynamic range is divided. However, it may have an apparent affect on dynamic range. DPR found, in their review of the 40D, that the 14 bit images seemed to have much of the additional data skewed into either shadows or highlights (or both, I don't recall now), rather than evenly across the spectrum. It's certainly possible to program it this way, and that would give an apparent boost to dynamic range, but in reality, white point is still white point and black point is still black point, and that sets your dynamic range.

cdifoto
01-25-2008, 07:53 AM
Sorry Don, you are right. Nobody ever bends their CF pings unless they are stupid. CF cards never get dropped in the dirt either, jamming the holes with crud that cannot be cleaned out...

You are getting as cranky as the other Don....

I'm not cranky I just know what's more usable in the field. ;)

droopy1592
01-25-2008, 12:35 PM
One thing I would go back to is this 12 bit thing with monitors. Every video card I have is set for 32bit color. Now, I haven't looked at the specs for the monitors themselves, but are we sure that was an accurate statement?

Rooz,
Are you using a form of physical calibration with your monitor. The differences in subtlety I've seen on my monitors since I physically calibrated them is nothing short of amazing. I agree that most are not really seeing a huge, visible, difference in image quality with 14 bit, but it remains to be seen if it really will be of benefit in post processing. If you cannot see the difference, then possibly not.

14 bit will not have any affect on dynamic range. It will only have an affect on how the available dynamic range is divided. However, it may have an apparent affect on dynamic range. DPR found, in their review of the 40D, that the 14 bit images seemed to have much of the additional data skewed into either shadows or highlights (or both, I don't recall now), rather than evenly across the spectrum. It's certainly possible to program it this way, and that would give an apparent boost to dynamic range, but in reality, white point is still white point and black point is still black point, and that sets your dynamic range.


MOst LCD monitors are 6 or 8 bit per channel. Generally the more expensive ones are 8 bit per channel which gives a 24bit color... which is around 4,294,967,296 displayable distinct colors. 32-bit video cards are really NOT 32-bit (save for some professional 10 bit per channel 30-bit color cards that have 2 bit extra info per channel) but are really 24-bit color with additional info (alpha, z-bump, etc). 12 and 14 bit raw easily exceed what these monitors are capable of with 68,719,476,736 and 4,398,046,511,104 respectively. Current LCD monitors can not display any difference between 12 and 14 bit unless you have a top of the line EIZO. Photoshop can show a difference between the two, or maybe some "golden eyes" weirdo if the photos are printed through some high quality process, but your monitor certainly won't.

dropoff
01-25-2008, 02:21 PM
i couldn;t agree more michael.

people whinging about the xsi need to remember what it costs. people want the features and spec of a 40d at the price of the xsi. its not going to...nor should it happen.

its spec'd perfectly for the entry level...and then some. i awill also strongly disagree that this is not a worthy upgrade from an XT. you must be kidding. :rolleyes:

.


Not crying about the cost, just wish it had a better grip. I am too poor for a 40D.

Why does every Canon post turn into a Nikon vs Canon Vs Sony deathmatch?

Rhys
01-25-2008, 04:55 PM
Not crying about the cost, just wish it had a better grip. I am too poor for a 40D.

Why does every Canon post turn into a Nikon vs Canon Vs Sony deathmatch?

Given that the XT can be had now for a shade under $400 and the XTi for not much more, is there any point in getting an XSi? The previous two models are pretty darned good. I hear a lot about these so-called advances but there's nothing that cannot be done with the older models. I almost bought a second XT when I got my 30D. In retrospect I really don't see there's much to choose - they all take photos!

timmciglobal
01-25-2008, 05:12 PM
So does a pin hole camera but sales haven't been great for that...

Honestly I'd say the bigger viewfinder, spot metering and live view more then make it worth and upgrade.

Tim

Rooz
01-25-2008, 05:23 PM
Not crying about the cost, just wish it had a better grip. I am too poor for a 40D.

Why does every Canon post turn into a Nikon vs Canon Vs Sony deathmatch?

in case you havent noticed, i don't own a canon and my comments have nothing to do with canon vs nikon. it has to do with a bit of common sense. the rebel series has always been small and will probably continue to be so. canon offer an alternative, but you have to pay for it. thats no different to any consumer product ever made.

forno
01-26-2008, 12:48 AM
If you already own an XTI, Canon really want you to buy a 40D not an XSi, the XSi is entry level and really isnt designed to get you to upgrade from your XSi

droopy1592
01-26-2008, 04:31 AM
So does a pin hole camera but sales haven't been great for that...

Honestly I'd say the bigger viewfinder, spot metering and live view more then make it worth and upgrade.

Tim
That and the stainless hotshoe, and the bigger LCD... um, yeah just my luck, i'll upgrade and the XSX will have a less nosy sensor and ISO 3200. Then I'll upgrade again!

Damn you canon!

coldrain
01-26-2008, 04:53 AM
One thing I would go back to is this 12 bit thing with monitors. Every video card I have is set for 32bit color. Now, I haven't looked at the specs for the monitors themselves, but are we sure that was an accurate statement?
Of course that is an accurate statement. 14 bit is a WHOLE lot more than 8 bit.
Just to illustrate:
A "32 bit" video card 256 levels from black to red, 256 levels from black to green, 256 levels from black to blue. And 256 levels from white to black.
The 8 bits that are left can be used as alpha channel.

Now what does 12bit RAW offer?
4096 levels from black to red, from black to green, from black to blue and from white to black.

So your screen can show 256 levels... but 12 bit has a whole lot more information, that just can not be shown (or even seen with our eyes).

And 14 bit RAW? It has the potential of having 16384 levels from black to red, black to green, black to blue and white to black.
That is a huge gain is possible steps.

So how on earth can a 32 bit video card show the difference in 12 bit and 14 bit RAW? It can't... it only offers 8 bits per RGB channel.


14 bit will not have any affect on dynamic range. It will only have an affect on how the available dynamic range is divided. However, it may have an apparent affect on dynamic range. DPR found, in their review of the 40D, that the 14 bit images seemed to have much of the additional data skewed into either shadows or highlights (or both, I don't recall now), rather than evenly across the spectrum. It's certainly possible to program it this way, and that would give an apparent boost to dynamic range, but in reality, white point is still white point and black point is still black point, and that sets your dynamic range.
This is not really true. It depends on what the manufacturer actually uses the 14 bits for on how dynamic range is affected, and some sensors just are much more dynamic than others.

What dpreview's tests show is that in the dark areas the Canon 40D still shows things not being black, where for instance the Pentax K10D already shows everything being just.... black.
So, what is black for the 40D is much "darker" than what is black for a Pentax K10D. And what is white for the Canon is much lighter than what is light for the Pentax K10D.

Of course, When you choose between 12 bits and 14 bits on a D300 most probably only the steps between its "black" and its "white" will be a lot smaller, but that is not certain. One will have to test that, with for instance a test like dpreview does. I will not be totally surprised if they actually do find a dynamic range difference.

michaelb
01-26-2008, 06:05 AM
...
Are you using a form of physical calibration with your monitor. The differences in subtlety I've seen on my monitors since I physically calibrated them is nothing short of amazing.

I agree that most are not really seeing a huge, visible, difference in image quality with 14 bit, but it remains to be seen if it really will be of benefit in post processing. If you cannot see the difference, then possibly not.


Monitor callibration is so much more important than this debate over 14 bit vs X bit, IMO. I was initially hesitant to the idea of monitor callibration, but I must admit that this has made has a bigger impact on my images than nearly anything else.
The differences between images shot with 14 bit vs X bit that I have seen have been very subtle, but the differences in my images and the accuracy of my prints, before and after monitor callibration, have been night and day.

TheObiJuan
01-27-2008, 12:45 AM
still need to add an external AF Assist beam.
This pop-up flash stuff is gay.

droopy1592
01-27-2008, 05:19 AM
still need to add an external AF Assist beam.
This pop-up flash stuff is gay.

I'll drink to that

AdamW
01-27-2008, 09:34 AM
still need to add an external AF Assist beam.
This pop-up flash stuff is gay.

Please don't use "gay" as a synonym for "bad." It's as bigoted as using "jew" for "cheap."

Thanks.

Rhys
01-27-2008, 11:59 AM
Please don't use "gay" as a synonym for "bad." It's as bigoted as using "jew" for "cheap."

Thanks.

Hang on... I am actually proud of being called a Jew when I'm being economical with money. My wife adds "stein" to the end of my name and "burg" to the end of her father's name because we're both tight with money. She says her father makes every penny scream and I get blood out of the pennies as well.

I'm not actually Jewish but I admire their business acumen.

toriaj
01-27-2008, 12:15 PM
Please don't use "gay" as a synonym for "bad." It's as bigoted as using "jew" for "cheap."

Thanks.

Agreed.
Thanks for standing up, Adam.

cdifoto
01-27-2008, 01:17 PM
Hang on... I am actually proud of being called a Jew when I'm being economical with money. My wife adds "stein" to the end of my name and "burg" to the end of her father's name because we're both tight with money. She says her father makes every penny scream and I get blood out of the pennies as well.

I'm not actually Jewish but I admire their business acumen.

lmao @ Rhysstein. :D How would one pronounce that? Is it rice-teen? :p

AdamW
01-27-2008, 01:49 PM
Hang on... I am actually proud of being called a Jew when I'm being economical with money. My wife adds "stein" to the end of my name and "burg" to the end of her father's name because we're both tight with money. She says her father makes every penny scream and I get blood out of the pennies as well.

I'm not actually Jewish but I admire their business acumen.

Rhys--I don't know whether I'm more offended as a Jew by your anti-Semitism or as a human by the sheer idiocy of what you wrote. If that's how you feel, perhaps you should try wearing blackface to a pick-up basketball game.

TheWengler
01-27-2008, 02:12 PM
Rhys--I don't know whether I'm more offended as a Jew by your anti-Semitism or as a human by the sheer idiocy of what you wrote. If that's how you feel, perhaps you should try wearing blackface to a pick-up basketball game.

Amazing what some people will say, huh?

cwphoto
01-27-2008, 02:44 PM
Please don't use "gay" as a synonym for "bad." It's as bigoted as using "jew" for "cheap."

Thanks.

Grow a skin guys. :rolleyes:

AdamW
01-27-2008, 02:53 PM
It's particularly insidious when people perpetuate stereotypes while claiming--or deluding themselves--that they're being "complimentary." To say that Jews are tight with money or good at business is as much a stereotype as saying that African Americans are good at sports or Asians are hard workers. It's wrong and ignorant and dangerous, no matter how much it's couched in terms like "admire" or "proud."

I know that this is way off the topic, but we're a community here and we all have an obligation to speak out against derogatory and hateful speech, even when it's pretending to be admiring.

timmciglobal
01-27-2008, 02:56 PM
Ok I think we've all stepped on some folks shoes here and before jeff has to say to himself "I can't f'ing believe they post this crap and on my boards" how about we just all drop it?

Being smart, dumb, good, bad, rich, poor or anything else isn't a characteristic of any one race/sex/religion and if you want to insult something just call it "nikon" like you've always done and be done with it.

Galidin

cdifoto
01-27-2008, 02:58 PM
if you want to insult something just call it "nikon" like you've always done and be done with it.

Galidin

LMAO :D :p :D

cdifoto
01-27-2008, 03:01 PM
Seriously though, I have gay friends and none of them express any offense when I refer to something stupid as being gay. It's hypersensitivity to slang and/or harmless humor that causes so many problems in the world.


Don't ever go see a stand-up comedian Adam, Lukas, toriaj, and anyone else who gets head up over little things like this.

AdamW
01-27-2008, 03:20 PM
I actually enjoy some of the most offensive comics. I think Sarah Silverman is really funny. The difference is someone being funny and someone being serious.

So, instead of offending our sensitive Nikon cousins, how about a term no one cares about? Which do you prefer? "That's so Sony!" or "That's so four thirds!"

cdifoto
01-27-2008, 03:22 PM
I actually enjoy some of the most offensive comics. I think Sarah Silverman is really funny. The difference is someone being funny and someone being serious.

So, instead of offending our sensitive Nikon cousins, how about a term no one cares about? Which do you prefer? "That's so Sony!" or "That's so four thirds!"

So it depends entirely on whether YOU find it funny. I see. Isn't that the very definition of hypocritical? :rolleyes:

TheWengler
01-27-2008, 03:40 PM
Seriously though, I have gay friends and none of them express any offense when I refer to something stupid as being gay. It's hypersensitivity to slang and/or harmless humor that causes so many problems in the world.

Don't ever go see a stand-up comedian Adam, Lukas, toriaj, and anyone else who gets head up over little things like this.

Wow, all of that missed the mark, but good try.

cwphoto
01-27-2008, 03:53 PM
Wow, all of that missed the mark, but good try.

I think CDI is right on the money.

PC gone mad.

downtrodden
01-27-2008, 04:03 PM
Don't you have to buy a ticket usually to go see a stand up comedian?

And isn't it written somewhere in the forum rules that racial comments like that aren't going to be tolerated, being that this is a public forum? rules are rules are rules- regardless of who you know that doesn't say they're offended when you crack a racial joke or use slang. I enjoy telling some very funny racial jokes, but this isn't the place for it- regardless of whether it's disguised as a compliment toward an entire race or not- Jeff's rules ask us not to do this- why is that so difficult, and why is it so bad for someone to POLITELY ask that we all observe those rules?

With that said, if anyone wants to trade some good jokes, by all means, PM me.

~Cory

downtrodden
01-27-2008, 04:05 PM
PS: I vote for "That's so SONY" the only person we'll offend is Don and well, who really cares, right?

:D

cdifoto
01-27-2008, 04:11 PM
PS: I vote for "That's so SONY" the only person we'll offend is Don and well, who really cares, right?

:D

Or we could just say "that just Schaps my hide!" :eek: :D

AdamW
01-27-2008, 04:14 PM
Or we could just say "that just Schaps my hide!" :eek: :D

I was gonna reply to your comment about hypocrisy, but I was laughing too hard at the above.

downtrodden
01-27-2008, 04:16 PM
yeah, except i don't really know how to pronounce Schap... this is important to me because it would likely become a part of my everyday lexicon. Maybe "Shop"? "Shap"? I don't know! So frustrating!!!

cdifoto
01-27-2008, 04:17 PM
yeah, except i don't really know how to pronounce Schap... this is important to me because it would likely become a part of my everyday lexicon. Maybe "Shop"? "Shap"? I don't know! So frustrating!!!

On the same token, I was gonna say something about people driving Rhys-burners but I'm not sure if that's how you pronounce his name.

TheWengler
01-27-2008, 04:22 PM
Seriously though, I have gay friends and none of them express any offense when I refer to something stupid as being gay. It's hypersensitivity to slang and/or harmless humor that causes so many problems in the world.

Don't ever go see a stand-up comedian Adam, Lukas, toriaj, and anyone else who gets head up over little things like this.

Ok CW, I'll give you my take. I'm not really trying to change anyones opinions and I'm not going to change mine. Believe whatever makes sense to you.

Of course things are harmless when they don't apply to you. CDI may have gay friends that don't care if he uses the term 'gay' as a negative remark. That really doesn't say anything about anyone other than the gay people he knows. I do agree that hypersensitivity is a problem but it's nothing more than annoying. A lack of respect for others is the source of the many problems in this world. If you show some respect for others and there are still people bitching about how they're offended then you can call them hypersensitive. I'm not really offended by anything Rhys said. I didn't find it funny or appropriate but it didn't really bother me because it doesn't apply to me. However, I can respect the fact that it bothered Adam. Saying something offensive in jest and just saying something offensive are completely different.

CDI - I'm pretty sure it's pronounced "Reese"

cwphoto
01-27-2008, 04:36 PM
Ok CW, I'll give you my take. I'm not really trying to change anyones opinions and I'm not going to change mine. Believe whatever makes sense to you.

Of course things are harmless when they don't apply to you. CDI may have gay friends that don't care if he uses the term 'gay' as a negative remark. That really doesn't say anything about anyone other than the gay people he knows. I do agree that hypersensitivity is a problem but it's nothing more than annoying. A lack of respect for others is the source of the many problems in this world. If you show some respect for others and there are still people bitching about how they're offended then you can call them hypersensitive. I'm not really offended by anything Rhys said. I didn't find it funny or appropriate but it didn't really bother me because it doesn't apply to me. However, I can respect the fact that it bothered Adam. Saying something offensive in jest and just saying something offensive are completely different.

CDI - I'm pretty sure it's pronounced "Reese"

Well around here we have three meanings in typical dialogue for gay:
1) Happy, gleeful, glad etc
2) Homosexual
3) Weird, something unsuitable, etc

I understood the OP to be using the term as the latter, without prejudice to homosexuals.

If so, how is it wrong?

cwphoto
01-27-2008, 04:38 PM
Don't you have to buy a ticket usually to go see a stand up comedian?

And isn't it written somewhere in the forum rules that racial comments like that aren't going to be tolerated, being that this is a public forum? rules are rules are rules- regardless of who you know that doesn't say they're offended when you crack a racial joke or use slang. I enjoy telling some very funny racial jokes, but this isn't the place for it- regardless of whether it's disguised as a compliment toward an entire race or not- Jeff's rules ask us not to do this- why is that so difficult, and why is it so bad for someone to POLITELY ask that we all observe those rules?

With that said, if anyone wants to trade some good jokes, by all means, PM me.

~Cory

I didn't see anything racially insensitive. :confused:

TheWengler
01-27-2008, 04:45 PM
Well around here we have three meanings in typical dialogue for gay:
1) Happy, gleeful, glad etc
2) Homosexual
3) Weird, something unsuitable, etc

I understood the OP to be using the term as the latter, without prejudice to homosexuals.

If so, how is it wrong?

Well if that was so I suppose there wouldn't be anything wrong with it. However, I don't think the 3rd one there is actually a definition, I think it's just an opinion some people have about the 2nd meaning.

Rhys
01-27-2008, 05:21 PM
Rhys--I don't know whether I'm more offended as a Jew by your anti-Semitism or as a human by the sheer idiocy of what you wrote. If that's how you feel, perhaps you should try wearing blackface to a pick-up basketball game.

No offence was meant, intended or implied. I was actually complimenting Jews for their handling of financial matters. I believe some of the most famous personalities on TV are Jewish. B&H is run by Hassidic Jews (not quite sure what a Hassidic Jew is though); B&H is incidentally my favourite shop. There is no way, no how that I could be called anti-Semitic. I resent that slur and your intended insult very much and demand that it be withdrawn forthwith. I am not black and I am sure African Americans would be most insulted to hear you using the phrase "wearing a blackface to a pick-up basketball game".

Incidentally, it's time this thread was locked as it's getting well out of hand and well away from its original topic.

cdifoto
01-27-2008, 06:17 PM
Seriously Rhys, how do you say your name?

cwphoto
01-28-2008, 12:25 AM
Has anyone seen this camera pop up for pre-order yet at any of the majors?

drama
01-28-2008, 12:57 AM
Adam W

Just wanted to say, I am impressed by your moral integrity

TheObiJuan
01-28-2008, 01:48 AM
Has anyone seen this camera pop up for pre-order yet at any of the majors?

Cdubb, I've been looking like crazy, alas I've found none available yet.
This camera is making me feel giddy and gay*- it presents the features I need and want, all in an affordable package. Some of the features, like 3" screen seem gay** to me, but I'll survive. I hope getting this camera doesn't turn me into a gay*** papparazzo. shootin' anything that moves.


* Jubilant or merry
** Bright or showy
*** Wanton, licentious [going beyond customary or proper bounds or limits; disregarding rules] behavior.

This thread ever being taken off topic to address word choice is gay* too.

* Used as a colloquialism in American vernacular to denote something uncool or square-the word "square" was in fact colloquially used in prior generations.

To associate morality with the usage of the word 'gay' is sadly ignorant. This mindset only continues to mis-associate the word with its proper context.

Cdubb and all who wish to stay on topic, I'm excited to see the reviews of this little gem. Hopefully I'll get it as a graduation gift this May.

faisal
01-28-2008, 01:56 AM
I'd more interesting in seeing when the 450D will be on display in shops as a single piece to play around with like they have for mobiles or when they'll have a promotional stand in one of the malls. One of friends thinks he saw one at the Airport Duty Free but I think it must be a 400D.

Btw....did you know the 400D is still being promoted here after they launched the camera campaign in july-august as it was regarded new then and still is in a way. And it still sells for $950 with the non IS kit lens, 2Gb memory card, backpack and a Sigma 70-300 (the cheaper useless one).

And another thing, the 40D has just been released here....I think its priced at $1650 for the body....

TheObiJuan
01-28-2008, 02:08 AM
Faisal, I may be stationed at Bahrain.
That's in your neck of the woods. The water and architecture is just amazing there!

My girlfriend's best friend just got a 400D for her birthday a few days. I told her to return it and not open the box-as usual for a woman-but she had already a few hundred clicks on it only an hour or so after receiving it!

TheWengler
01-28-2008, 02:32 AM
Obi, don't you already have a 20D or a 30D or something like that? Obviously the XSi would have more current features but is it really an upgrade?

faisal
01-28-2008, 03:02 AM
Faisal, I may be stationed at Bahrain.
That's in your neck of the woods. The water and architecture is just amazing there!

My girlfriend's best friend just got a 400D for her birthday a few days. I told her to return it and not open the box-as usual for a woman-but she had already a few hundred clicks on it only an hour or so after receiving it!

I've never been to Bahrain to be honest.....
I don't know about the water but I'm sure the architecture will be great. Knowing how the arabs love beautiful building, even if the old forts are a disappointment, the new ones will be great....

I'd be highly surprised if a person didn't click away on his/her new camera in the first few minutes.....I did and would....

cpaussie
01-28-2008, 03:52 AM
cw, this place has pre-orders for the 450d.
looks like a nice camera. :)

http://www.d-d-photographics.com.au/

TheObiJuan
01-28-2008, 04:43 AM
Obi, don't you already have a 20D or a 30D or something like that? Obviously the XSi would have more current features but is it really an upgrade?

One can never have to many cameras. :p
This Xsi would be ideal for night club and part shooting. The large screen would allow me to show pics on the spot, the live view would allow over the head shots, the better battery power would be ideal, and better AF helps.
Lighter is also better for me.

michaelb
01-28-2008, 05:34 AM
One can never have to many cameras. :p

Would you mind explaining this to my wife? :D

TheObiJuan
01-28-2008, 05:38 AM
Certain things a man should keep to himself, especially when married.
1. Your opinion
2. Small expenditures
3. Your opinion
4. Past experiences/relationships

Ray Schnoor
01-28-2008, 05:42 AM
Certain things a man should keep to himself, especially when married.
1. Your opinion
2. Small expenditures
3. Your opinion
4. Past experiences/relationships
Are you including digital cameras in that small expenditures category? I also wasn't aware that husbands were allowed to have an opinion.

Ray.

TheObiJuan
01-28-2008, 05:53 AM
Hahah Ray, yes, camera and most lenses are small.
Regarding the opinion.... it depends on the wife.
Mine cherishes my opinion and relies on it; my ex-wife wanted to believe I didn't have one.

Guess I'm lucky now. :p

Funny thing is: in this relationship I'm fully supported with whatever I do or want to do- within reason.

FLiPMaRC
01-28-2008, 10:16 AM
Would you mind explaining this to my wife? :D

Mine too :D

forno
01-29-2008, 12:44 AM
Grow a skin guys. :rolleyes:

Classic:D:D

Turn
01-29-2008, 03:37 AM
I'm getting one as soon as I can. I've had my XTi a few months and desperately want the Live View. I almost bought a 40D last night just to get that one feature. I find it very difficult to frame shots without a LCD view. I can't even believe this wasn't standard on all SLRs up to now. The extra MP mean nothing to me. I am a bit bummed about the new memory cards, I have a few hundred in CF already...and the new battery, of which I have 3 of the old style. But I just bought a nice lens (the 17-55), and will grab this body and battery grip as soon as BH has them. Exactly what I've been waiting for. I played around with the 40D for quite a bit, and I love it's size and feel. But, that 17-55 lens is waaaaay heavier than the kit. That, with a flash on the XTi already ways a ton to me. So the 40D with heavy lens and flash just seems too big for my non-pro use. The XTi size is a nice compromise really.

$800 for body, hopefully means $700 street, no?

oh mate seriously stay with your camera, people have been taking amazingly awesome photos without Live View so why would you see it so highly, gah..

I really don't think upgrading will make your photos 1000x better

bloody oath


Call me old-fashioned if you want, but honestly I never liked the idea of live view. I prefer to frame shots in the viewfinder.

The only thing I had hoped Canon would change would have been to make the 450D larger than the 350D & 400D. I just got rid of my 350D and got the D50 I have now because the 350D was just too small for my hands. Other than the size I really did like that camera.

same here, I love the viewfinder I always use it on my S3 IS
the redesigned grip looks better but again I agree on the size

I guess I'll be use to it but man I loved the weight and size of the D80

I really think that Live View is kind of gimmicky...
Canon have really done well with the Xsi in my opinion and will sell heaps, I like the move to SD because simply everything uses SD and 36 gb of photos? do you shoot only in RAW all the time every time, also you must have one massive HDD to store all of that if you ever do...

Vio1
01-29-2008, 06:56 AM
i would think that taking pictures with the live view would result in more often blurry pictures as you are not bracing the camera on anything (while when using the viewfinder, the camera is braced against your face)

FLiPMaRC
01-29-2008, 07:08 AM
Pre-orders :) http://www.ritzcamera.com/product/541162053.htm

Rhys
01-29-2008, 08:00 AM
Christ! Can this debate get any more racist? We've had references to "grow a skin" - a nasty reference to the Bris. We've had references to "blackfaces" which is pretty nasty. We've had a troublemaker trying to turn compliments into insults. It's about time this thread was axed!

SynterX
01-29-2008, 08:41 AM
Um, pardon me for liking Live View. Do some of you forget that we're all not semi professional photographers? That maybe, just maybe, some of us use our cameras not only to take artsy shots of trees and buildings, but of our family and kids? Have you ever tried to take a shot of a 4 year old with Manual mode and staring through a 1/2 inch viewfinder? You might as well forget it. For me, it's aim, hope no one moves, and shoot. If I have time, I tweak everything out to get it right.

As far as "plenty of great shots were taken without Live View", that's about the dumbest statement I've heard in a long time. Plenty of great shots were taken with it, and far more were taken without a SLR or digital SLR for that matter. You don't like live view, great, wonderful, I get it. Leave those who want it alone.

I simply came to the realization that I can not afford to get better equipment. I can afford a few hundred bucks, but that's about it. I'm hoping this spring to sell my XTi for what I can get, and hopefully have some dough saved up to get the XSi because a 40D is just not going to happen.

So, from a broke amateur, the XSi is a nice upgrade. To people who this is all they think about, a XSi, XTi, anything under a 40D is likely a joke.

I say "nice job" Canon for not increasing the price a bunch, and putting useful features and user requests into your entry level dslr.

AdamW
01-29-2008, 11:37 AM
Christ! Can this debate get any more racist? We've had references to "grow a skin" - a nasty reference to the Bris. We've had references to "blackfaces" which is pretty nasty. We've had a troublemaker trying to turn compliments into insults. It's about time this thread was axed!

I read CW's "grow a skin" to refer to the "thin skin" of the easily offended, not circumcision.

If I'm a troublemaker for expressing that what you intended as a compliment was to me offensive and anti-Semetic, then I'm a troublemaker.

My reference to "blackface" was an attempt to use an example to try to get you to see that your comments about Jews was perpetuating a negative stereotype, similar to the so-called complimentary--but in reality negative--stereotype that all Africans Americans are good at sports.

downtrodden
01-29-2008, 11:39 AM
Again i say, do not under estimate the power of Live View as a means of getting people to buy their dSLR. It doesn't seem important to some of you- but for the average person that's thinking about moving up to the 'best quality' they often are shocked and surprised to find these expensive cameras don't offer a 'simple' feature that even the cheapest and lowliest point and shoot, crap, generic cameras offer.

I still think Live View will be enough to finallly get a lot of point and shoot owners to jump ship and go dSLR.

blackudder
02-26-2008, 06:08 AM
As a non-DSLR owner (I have the S1 & S3 IS P&S models) what everybody has said about the XSi not being an upgrade for previous owners of XT/XTi is what I see as well. The XSi is made to try and get me to buy a DSLR, not previous owners. Digital cameras these days are made just like all the other tech products (computers, TVs, etc.), they are meant to be improved and entice you to upgrade and dispose of your current product. Capitalism at it's finest.

As for the live view, it's one of the more appealing features for me. Until you have a feature, it's hard to say how it would benefit you. I know I have many shots that would not have been possible without my handy dandy little live view (and bendy viewfinder). Taking shots around a corner (when only the camera is visible), lining up a shot will not looking through the viewfinder and setting the timer so you get a candid photo of people (or animals) who are not aware a picture will be taken, shots of a fish tank (yeah, for some reason fish don't hang around when you stick your face against the glass). There are other possibilities, these are just a few.

These entry levels will continue to evolve and push the upper models into better and better features until we can get to the properties of film (quite a ways off as I understand).

Lastly, as somebody else had mentioned, not everybody is a pro photographer or a dedicated hobbyist. For some folks, a new entry level camera every few years that increases options and capabilities is a better fiscal option than saving for 5 years and getting more camera than they can understand/process or need. For many, these entry level cameras really do suffice for camera needs. They're not just a starting point because of budget and just a waiting ground until they can upgrade to a "better" camera.

It's been an interesting read through this thread.

Gintaras
02-26-2008, 11:31 AM
why would you say XSi is not worth upgrading? just consider larger viewfinder plus newer DIGIC plus spot metering and you may want it. having live view is also fine when you ask a friend who comes from P&S to take a pix of you. besides i assume with each camera upgrading issue is mostly about money, in most cases. i confess XSi sounds good to me but as i am discovering DSLR and understand i want something bigger and more powerful next time, probably 50D or … be it 5D??? PS: weird that i picked XTi exactly for its compact size over functionality but now this becomes non-issue.

Gintaras
02-26-2008, 11:32 AM
Besides you can ask Drama, who is a seasoned photographer and who upgraded from XT to XTi before swapping the latter for 40D.

talkingdog
02-26-2008, 04:52 PM
Um, pardon me for liking Live View. Do some of you forget that we're all not semi professional photographers? That maybe, just maybe, some of us use our cameras not only to take artsy shots of trees and buildings, but of our family and kids? Have you ever tried to take a shot of a 4 year old with Manual mode and staring through a 1/2 inch viewfinder? You might as well forget it. For me, it's aim, hope no one moves, and shoot. If I have time, I tweak everything out to get it right.


I simply came to the realization that I can not afford to get better equipment. I can afford a few hundred bucks, but that's about it. I'm hoping this spring to sell my XTi for what I can get, and hopefully have some dough saved up to get the XSi because a 40D is just not going to happen.

So, from a broke amateur, the XSi is a nice upgrade. To people who this is all they think about, a XSi, XTi, anything under a 40D is likely a joke.

I say "nice job" Canon for not increasing the price a bunch, and putting useful features and user requests into your entry level dslr.

You may want to try out live view before you buy, it doesn't work exactly like a point and shoot. The XSi may be different with the contrast focus, will have to wait and see on that.

Circuit city has preorders for the XSi and no interest for 12 months
Helps spread the pain.

JTL
02-26-2008, 05:11 PM
I think the whole premise of this thread is dopey (sorry if anyone thinks that's offensive...I don't think it is). By any objective measure, the XSi is a stunning technological wonder. How jaded some of us are. :rolleyes:

deadman
11-07-2008, 02:58 PM
What I find entirely puzzling about Live view on the 450D is the methodology of using it. You have to press and hold the zoom out button instead of the usual half shutter button. Why? I love the smudges on the display I get when I press my nose against it too. Coming from an S2 IS it looks like an interesting journey has begun. Oh. Just got mine yesterday BTW. :)

zmikers
11-07-2008, 06:29 PM
Oh my god! This is the most retarded thread I have read in a long time. I have read the craziest comments here. I agree with CW. Some of you should grow up.

I'm sure I have offended:

Christians - Oh my god
mentally challenged - retarded
mentally unstable - craziest
midgets - grow up

But it seems to me we can't say anything anymore without offending someone.

Gintaras
11-08-2008, 02:23 AM
for someone who upgrades from digital to DSLR the new XSi sounds pretty good and there is good logic why XSi has an SD card. many who upgrade from digital have their cameras with SD cards, so for them switching sounds easy. i do not recall which of smaller and newer digital still use CF.

Gintaras
11-08-2008, 02:26 AM
however i see little reason for upgrading from XTi which does most of things i need, so perhaps for an XTi user it makes sense to wait for next reincarnation of digital Rebel or step up to someting more serious like 50d or 5dII

zmikers
11-08-2008, 02:41 AM
Gintaras - Two very valid points

Gintaras
11-08-2008, 05:07 AM
thanks zmikers, i am not the expert but to me it looks Canon took an evolutionary approach with its newer models while Nikon took a revolutionary step forward. in this sense Nikon beats Canon in both mid range DSRL with D90 and in semi pro DSLR department with D300 and we still wait for the jury verdict on D700 vs. 5dII Mark... summing up Nikon vs. Canon 2:0 right now. this was the reason for me to wait before upgrading to FF and if i would think about upgrading to mid range DSLR i would think about Nikon D90 rather than Canon... and may be Canon XSi still rules in entry level DSLR world, but competition there gears up with Sony, Pentax and others rolling out newer models and offering in body image stabilization, so perhaps Canon will feel a growing pressure too while Canon is still at risk of losing the edge in FF and already lost some in cropped mid range and semi pro area. i think Canon's major mistake was to roll 5dII after D700 and offer HD movie mode on 5d instead of 50d while skipping pop up flash on 5dII... also i would prefer Canon taking care of its focusing system and dynamic range rather than stuffing 5dII with tons of mgpixels, so i am afraid Canon did it all wrong this time.

all in all sad... but i still love my Canon and their digital elfs are best digital compacts.

NB: everything in my humble opinion.

Gintaras
11-08-2008, 05:16 AM
i also wonder why Canon is so slow with major FF DSLR smth like 1d-IV Mark or similar? and their new EFS 18-200IS gets poor reviews compared to Nikons 18-200VR, which is a major consumer appealing universal range lens. perhaps Canon must steal some brain from Nikon and listen better to its customers... otherwise soon we will see majority of pros carrying around black golden ring lenses instead of white red ring... ah?

droopy1592
11-08-2008, 11:27 AM
I'm starting to think the canon engineers and marketing crew have been been drinking too much liquid lunch together.

jamison55
11-11-2008, 08:55 AM
Well here's my .02 FWIW. The honeymoon period is over for my new XSi, and I have a bit of a love/don't love thing going on with it.

Love the big LCD. Love the live view (even though I find that I don't use it that much). With the Live View, I have the ability to put the "focus point" anywhere on the screen. Tres cool for compositions that fall outside of one of the standard focus points. Love the "My Menu", very useful. Love the small size.

Despite all of this, however, I don't love the files I am getting out of it. I upgraded from an old XT, and, dang it if I didn't like the files from the XT better. ESP at high ISO's. I find the XSi is quite noisy at 800, and almost unusable at 1600. Turning the Highlight priority and auto lighting optimizer off have helped a bit, but I can't help but feel like 12MP's is just too much resolution for the little chip in this camera. With the XT I got years of usable files and had no problem going to 1600, but the XSi can't quite handle it IMO. And it's not just the noise. It's the decrease in color fidelity at the high ISO's. They seem to lack the punch that I am used to from Canon files.

And I'm shooting RAW. Jpegs at high ISO are even worse because the NR kills the details and makes everything mushy.

So, as much as I hate to say this, I think I liked my XT better!

And I think I'm jonesing for a D700.

cdifoto
11-11-2008, 09:32 AM
From what I've read, the general consensus seems to be that 10MP is the max for the 1.6x sensor, with 8MP having been the ideal.

I wish I knew what I was doing when I had the XT. Since I had no clue, I don't know whether I did or did not like the files from it. I know I didn't like the files that I got from it, but that's not the camera's fault.

Nickcanada
11-11-2008, 09:56 AM
I liked my XT files too. How does sRAW effect IQ? One thing that has me skeptical of the 50D is the high MP count but does the IQ increase when using the lower resolution sRAW files?


I must say that although I like the XT files I find I need less WB adjusting when using my 20D. The auto WB on the XT is extremely cold.

I don't think I'd ever buy another rebel camera though. They are too small and uncomfortable for me. I love the dual wheels on the XXD series.

cdifoto
11-11-2008, 09:58 AM
I won't either Nick. Same reason I won't buy another Nintendo.

Nickcanada
11-11-2008, 10:01 AM
I won't either Nick. Same reason I won't buy another Nintendo.

Why is that? they are toys? :confused:

cdifoto
11-11-2008, 10:10 AM
I don't have the coordination for that level of button pushing.

Rooz
11-11-2008, 02:18 PM
is Wii Nintendo ? cos i played that the pther day and it was awesome.

Nickcanada
11-11-2008, 02:25 PM
I don't have the coordination for that level of button pushing.

Yeah dude, try the Wii! it's pretty rad. :D

and yes it is Nintendo.

P.S. but I get the coordination thing. Isn't the old 1D like that too?

cdifoto
11-11-2008, 02:33 PM
Not really. I can do buttons, just not quickly enough for things like exposure.

zmikers
11-11-2008, 03:10 PM
I must say that although I like the XT files I find I need less WB adjusting when using my 20D. The auto WB on the XT is extremely cold.

I don't think I'd ever buy another rebel camera though. They are too small and uncomfortable for me. I love the dual wheels on the XXD series.

I don't know about the xt, but I'm having issues with the xti's exposure level. I'm finding everything I shoot under exposed. Even in a controlled lighting setup, I have to over expose everything by about 2/3 to 1 full stop.:eek: Shocking! I'm now contemplating over the 50D or the 5d Mark II. It's a big price difference, just deciding if it's worth it or not.

deadman
11-11-2008, 03:41 PM
I hate how they keep pushing the megapixel count. Purely marketing BS of course. They could make otherwise great cameras into awesome cameras by upping the features and build quality whilst keeping the res the same. But that doesn't seem to sell cameras to n00bs.

This coming from someone who just purchased his first DSLR 450D. I love it though but then I don't have much else to compare it to right now apart my old S2 IS.

rynugz007
11-11-2008, 08:44 PM
Well here's my .02 FWIW. The honeymoon period is over for my new XSi, and I have a bit of a love/don't love thing going on with it.

Love the big LCD. Love the live view (even though I find that I don't use it that much). With the Live View, I have the ability to put the "focus point" anywhere on the screen. Tres cool for compositions that fall outside of one of the standard focus points. Love the "My Menu", very useful. Love the small size.

Despite all of this, however, I don't love the files I am getting out of it. I upgraded from an old XT, and, dang it if I didn't like the files from the XT better. ESP at high ISO's. I find the XSi is quite noisy at 800, and almost unusable at 1600. Turning the Highlight priority and auto lighting optimizer off have helped a bit, but I can't help but feel like 12MP's is just too much resolution for the little chip in this camera. With the XT I got years of usable files and had no problem going to 1600, but the XSi can't quite handle it IMO. And it's not just the noise. It's the decrease in color fidelity at the high ISO's. They seem to lack the punch that I am used to from Canon files.

And I'm shooting RAW. Jpegs at high ISO are even worse because the NR kills the details and makes everything mushy.

So, as much as I hate to say this, I think I liked my XT better!

And I think I'm jonesing for a D700.


This post worries me. I just sold my XT and ordered and XSI. I wanted a bigger LCD and better auto focus but I also thought the high ISO would be better too since the majority of what I shoot is low light/indoor stuff. The reviews I've read stated that the XSI's high ISO performance/noise is better than the 400D and pretty darn close to the 40D. Maybe this is not the case? Is anyone else not liking theirs? Maybe I should of held out for the 40D or better yet jumped ship and went with a Nikon D90!! Though i'd have to sell my small canon lens collection. Damn me for trying to save a few bucks!

totally off topic but black athletes do have a signifigant edge over white athletes. Its genetics. They're just built better. They're typically taller/bigger and have better muscle mass to body fat ratio, more testosterone than us white folk too. I don't see why its a sensitive subject for anyone. Feel free to flame the crap out of me.

Nickcanada
11-12-2008, 04:49 AM
I don't know about the xt, but I'm having issues with the xti's exposure level. I'm finding everything I shoot under exposed. Even in a controlled lighting setup, I have to over expose everything by about 2/3 to 1 full stop.:eek: Shocking! I'm now contemplating over the 50D or the 5d Mark II. It's a big price difference, just deciding if it's worth it or not.

yeah, even the 20D is a underexposer. The trick is to get used to using the histogram.

Nickcanada
11-12-2008, 04:54 AM
This post worries me. I just sold my XT and ordered and XSI. I wanted a bigger LCD and better auto focus but I also thought the high ISO would be better too since the majority of what I shoot is low light/indoor stuff. The reviews I've read stated that the XSI's high ISO performance/noise is better than the 400D and pretty darn close to the 40D. Maybe this is not the case? Is anyone else not liking theirs? Maybe I should of held out for the 40D or better yet jumped ship and went with a Nikon D90!! Though i'd have to sell my small canon lens collection. Damn me for trying to save a few bucks!

totally off topic but black athletes do have a signifigant edge over white athletes. Its genetics. They're just built better. They're typically taller/bigger and have better muscle mass to body fat ratio, more testosterone than us white folk too. I don't see why its a sensitive subject for anyone. Feel free to flame the crap out of me.


Jamison is a wedding photographer and is more picky then the average bear. Do your own tests and come to your own conclusions.

Why did you start talking about athletes? did I miss something? :confused:

rynugz007
11-12-2008, 06:26 AM
It's particularly insidious when people perpetuate stereotypes while claiming--or deluding themselves--that they're being "complimentary." To say that Jews are tight with money or good at business is as much a stereotype as saying that African Americans are good at sports or Asians are hard workers. It's wrong and ignorant and dangerous, no matter how much it's couched in terms like "admire" or "proud."



my athlete comment was a response to this. I probably shouldn't of said anything. I would rather not see this thread get derailed again.

cdifoto
11-12-2008, 06:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXSky8k22o

jamison55
11-12-2008, 05:06 PM
...Do your own tests and come to your own conclusions.

x2 - It was my expectations that were the problem. You might find that you don't have an issue. I might also be spoiled by my 5d's...

Turn
11-12-2008, 05:18 PM
Umm everyone

the 450D has great noise levels and its a great camera in general

having used the 40D and a D80, I would pick the 450D any day...

jamison55
11-12-2008, 05:40 PM
Here you go, a crappy, poorly exposed image from right now.

XSi, 50 f1.4, ISO1600. Shot RAW, processed in DPP with NR sliders set to 2 (my default setting for the 5D). Here's the entire scene:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3632sm.jpg


And the brighter part in the middle (100%):
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3632ctr.jpg

And the shadow part at the edge (100%):
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3632edge.jpg


Maybe if I'd exposed better (still not art, I can't be bothered to get up from my lay-z-boy)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3633sm.jpg

Center:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3633ctr.jpg

Shadow:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3633edge.jpg

Rooz
11-12-2008, 06:57 PM
I might also be spoiled by my 5d's...

i think this is closer to the mark.

i used a d700 for a shoot 2 weeks ago for a day. i was at 3200+ for around 600 frames where no flash was permitted. by the time i got home and used the d300 again i was just about ready to throw the fu**kin thing out the window.

considering the d300 can pull this at 3200...(and probably even better if the hi-iso king Nick was shooting it), you quickly learn to avoid using great gear again unless you can own it. if anyone offers me a d700 for a weekend again, i'd be just as likely to smack em across the chops.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/2988202945_c42e5ae588.jpg

Turn
11-12-2008, 11:31 PM
Here you go, a crappy, poorly exposed image from right now.

XSi, 50 f1.4, ISO1600. Shot RAW, processed in DPP with NR sliders set to 2 (my default setting for the 5D). Here's the entire scene:


And the brighter part in the middle (100%):
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3632ctr.jpg

And the shadow part at the edge (100%):
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3632edge.jpg


Maybe if I'd exposed better (still not art, I can't be bothered to get up from my lay-z-boy)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3633sm.jpg

Center:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3633ctr.jpg

Shadow:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/IMG_3633edge.jpg

here's my example, straight from RAW :)
I think its very usable and there is always noise ninja

RAW - no post processing
50mm
ISO 1600
F2
1/400 :)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3253/3026279857_377b63e125_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3041/3026279835_80605041e8_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3254/3027120944_6a702a548b_o.jpg

Gintaras
11-14-2008, 01:51 AM
I don't know about the xt, but I'm having issues with the xti's exposure level. I'm finding everything I shoot under exposed. Even in a controlled lighting setup, I have to over expose everything by about 2/3 to 1 full stop.:eek: Shocking! I'm now contemplating over the 50D or the 5d Mark II. It's a big price difference, just deciding if it's worth it or not.

that's correct, i have same with my XTi... not big problem, some other cameras consistently overexpose, heard that about Nikon D80... it is not big problem as long as you can use exposure compensation.

in fact XTi is fine camera for many things and i believe XSi should be as well... what i agree that too many pixels might be a problem on cropped sensor. might be 10MP is a limit for cropped sensor. i heard it XT giving cleaner high ISO than XTi but did not try this myself. :confused:

zmikers
11-14-2008, 03:48 AM
that's correct, i have same with my XTi... not big problem, some other cameras consistently overexpose

You're right, as long it is consistent. Fortunately I do find the xti to be very consistent in it's incorrect exposure, so I can just compensate accordingly. That being said, it would be nice to have a meter in the camera that exposes correctly.