The imfamous D300 8fps Thread

[VTEC_EATER]

Well, there was a discussion in another thread about the D300's ability to shoot 8fps. While this is a wonderful and impressive thing, the confusion comes in as to why you need the optional battery grip and specific batteries to do it.

On one side we have someone (I wont name names) saying that the D300 has the ability to shoot 8 fps regardless of battery power, and that the grip is simply a ploy to make Nikon more money.

On the other side, we have many who believe that the D300 requires additional battery power to shoot 8 fps, and that Nikon knows what they are doing.

Discuss.

[VTEC_EATER]

I am a believer that there is something to the voltage to access the 8fps shooting.

If it were a matter of just buying the MB-D10 and attaching it to the camera to get 8fps, then I would say it was a gimmick. You can not get 8fps with the grip and an additional EN-EL3 battery. You sometimes have difficulty getting 8fps using certain rechargeable AA batteries. However, you can get 8fps using the grip and an EN-EL4 battery, or using standard AA batteries (or high quality rechargeable AA batteries.)

My theory on this is that the camera somehow requires a minimum of 11.1 volts of power to get the 8fps shooting. The regular EN-EL3 battery that comes with the D300 only has 7.4 volts of power. Some crappy rechargeable batteries only contain 1.2 volts each, which multiplied by 8 only adds up to 9.6 volts. Standard AA batteries are 1.5 volts each for 12 total volts of power. Since you can only choose to use one battery (either the one in the grip, or in the camera) at a time, I believe (but I have not tested this yet) you can only achieve 8fps shooting if you choose the battery grip power first. Since I do not have my battery grip with me here at work, I can not test this theory, but I believe it may hold water.

In fact, I have not played around too much with the battery grip, but I do know that the rechargeable batteries I have do indeed work with the grip to give me 8fps shooting, so I really don't care how it all works, just that it does work.

Yay me and my 8 fps shooting!

[Rooz]

don;t have a clue as to why it cant shoot 8fps without the BG. my answer to that is "who cares ?" as long as people have the ability to do that is pretty cool in my book.

[erichlund]

OK, first of all, here are the points Coldrain made in the prev thread.

1. Computers don't get faster by changing the voltage.

Wrong. At the convention of overclockers anonymous, you would get laughed right out of the room. This is EXACTLY how they make the computers go faster. There's a small subset of these people that actually see how fast they can get it to go before the high voltage fries the processor (determined by when it does, in fact, fail).

My motherboard manual for the computer I built actually gives overclocking instructions for setting the voltages, and what they recommend as the maximum safe voltages.

2. AF-S type motors don't go faster with voltage.

Two points here. First, the D300 also has a body mounted focus motor, which also requires power. Not all Nikon mount lenses have built in motors, but I think you know that.

Any motor will go faster if you apply more power - to the motor. This may mean you have to bypass a voltage regulator, but until the motor fails, more power to the motor means more speed. In fact, a motor with a speed control - the speed control is really nothing more than a variable resistor. Lower resistance means more voltage to the motor.

Now, I'm pretty certain, being the Canon fan that you are, that Nikon has not let you in on the internal electronics of their new cameras. So, I'd guess that you really have no idea what power regulation is done within the electro-mechanical portions of the camera.

I would presume that the computerized portions of the electronics are tightly controlled in terms of power regulation. I also suspect that if the mechanical portions of the camera were not power limited, the electronics could easily perform to 8fps all the time.

Remember, we are only talking about the difference between 6 and 8fps. The EN-EL3 does not have sufficient power to sustain 8fps, so it is regulated to 6fps. Deliver higher power, and the camera can sustain 8fps. That's what the bigger battery does. Deliver more sustainable power.

Of course, if you go to 14bit, the D300 apparently doesn't have a fast enough data pipeline to go faster than 2.5 frames per second. But, that is an entirely different subject, and has nothing to do with the battery power.

[coldrain]

Eric, you do confuse w hole lot of things. That making the processor run at a higher clock speed makes it use a higher voltage has little to do with thinking one can actually put a higher voltage on the Nikon's computer and have it calculate faster. All that will do is seriously fry the components.

And 2ndly, you do apparently NOT know how a ring type motor works, and anyway, how ANY motor works or how ANY motor AFs is irrelevant, since (as I said before) the 6 or 8 FPS is ONLY achievable with shutter priority, and then it does NOT matter how slow or how fast the AF motor works.
The camera can simply not wait for focus lock for every photo, and does not do that.

So lens focus speed is totally irrelevant.

And anyway, Nikon's SWM motors work in the same fashion as Canon USM motors, and they are not electromagnetic, as you seem to think.

About 12 vs 14 bits, it is clearly not the data pipeline that is the bottle neck (the data does not expand to more than twice the size), it has to do with the sensor and how 14 bits are acquired somehow. But yes, that is again an entirely different subject.

Rooz, if you do need your remote to be wireless, you can have a look at this product. Looks a bit daft, but apparently it works very well, and I just can't believe the price!
Way less expensive than the cheapest Nikon wire remote.

http://www.dpnotes.com/phottix-n1-wireless-remote-control-set-nikon-d300-review/

[TNB]

coldrain,

Since you are the motor expert,
* Please explain the difference between a brushed motor and a brushless motor?
* Please explain what causes cogging?
* Please explain what influence insufficient voltage has on cogging?
* Please explain the difference between a brushed and brushless electronic speed control, as well as explain why a brushed speed control will not work with a brushless motor?

Also, since you are the electroinics expert, please explain Ohm's law, which states that, in an electrical circuit, the current passing through a conductor between two points is directly proportional to the potential difference (i.e. voltage drop or voltage) across the two points, and inversely proportional to the resistance between them.

And since you are the camera expert, please explain why the Nikon D300 has the option of using several voltage batteries and what is their goal and/or intended purpose. Please provide a logical explaination other than your usual bias opinon about just trying to get more money out of the consumer. Links to scientific data and support is also greatly appreciated besides your usual unsubstantiated posts.

Again, we can both meet at PMA and ask the Nikon reps in person. I will be there on Saturday, February 2, 2008.

Thank you.

PS: And while you are at it, why not share some recent photos taken with a Nikon dSLR on the Nikon dSLR photo thread.

[coldrain]

No, the silent wave motors used in AF-S/USM/HSM/SSM lenses are not the "brushless motors".

As I said, these ring motors are not electromagnetic.
Just read up on ultrasonic piezo motors.

And as I also said, the motors, can be as slow as you want, it will not influence the FPS. Also look up what shutter priority means (as opposed to focus priority). Because one uses shutter priority when one uses the fast frame rates to capture something.

And have you ever in your life soldered IC circuits together? Have you ever in your life read IC component schematics, which state which voltage the IC needs to operate? And also read up on what voltage regulators are, and why they are used.Iif you open your DSLR you will find a number of them on the PCBs, if you study them.

To make it simple for you:

1. NO, ultrasonic piezo motors are NOT electromagnetic motors. So also not electromagnetic brushless motors.
2. NO, the speed of an AF motor has NOTHING to do with the FPS you get in shutter priority AF mode.
3. NO, just because you look up Ohm's law, does not mean you can just increase voltage over IC's without causing them to burn and break.

[VTEC_EATER]

More speculation on the net:

http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00MM7L

[TNB]

coldrain,

Thanks for failing to answer my questions, as anticipated. And yes I have soldered a few things together in my past, as well as read a few schematics. I've even used a few scopes in my time, but as omnipotent as you are about everything you knew that already. And technically, you didn't "say" anything, you wrote it!

As mentioned before, I'll meet you at PMA if you dare show! And bring your Rebel, so we can take some action photos afterwards.

[erichlund]

You said that electronic components (computers, your word) do not go faster with higher voltage. I was just pointing out that you are clearly wrong. I was not intimating that Nikon varies the voltage to the computer components in their cameras.

How do you figure Piezo Electric is not electro-mechanical. It still requires electricity to generate the ultrasonic forces, and the movement of the lens body is still by mechanical force. That's electro-mechanical (not electro-magnetic, a word I did not use).

I can think of several other items that are mechanically actuated by electrical means. I believe the aperture is set electro-mechanically. The shutter and mirror are moved by electrically generated force. All these things require power. All I'm saying is that the camera's power requirements are met by the EN-EL3 at 6fps, but it needs a bigger battery to get 8fps. Nikon wants to sell cameras. They would not do this just to screw the consumer into buying two battery types, because the consumer might just revolt. Besides, it's quite likely they are camera users themselves. Why do that to yourself? You do it if it's necessary to get the desired performance.

As to settings to get 6fps, you can use shutter priority or manual, and you must set 1/250 or faster for the shutter speed. Shutter priority has nothing to do with focus. You must set AF-C, which is continuous focus, which means the camera will continue to focus regardless of what you do with the shutter release button (this is a specific requirement in the manual). The focus motor, either internal or in the lens, will be running continuously if subject distance is constantly changing.

One thing I did notice is that the D300 manual does not say anything about failure to continue focusing above certain frame rates, something that was specifically in previous manuals. I'll have to look that up later, but there's nothing I can find in the D300 manual.

As for the data pipeline, data is a somewhat ambiguous word. However, in this case, you have data as soon as the sensor captures light. That data goes through several transformations by the time it gets to the CF card, but it is all data. I don't know the exact choke point, but clearly, there is one. I'm guessing it's a hardware chokepoint, because I don't think Nikon would saddle themselves. I suspect that the decision to do 14 bit processing came very late, perhaps after they heard Canon was going to have it. The hardware clearly was not properly sized to process 14 bit data at high speed, something I would have expected from a ground up design.

As for voltage regulators, I would assume that the voltage passed to the computer portions is very tightly controlled. However, I would suspect that Nikon is quite capable of separating the power used for the chipped parts from that used for the electro-mechanical parts, and also quite capable of handling two voltages in those areas that need two power settings.

[VTEC_EATER]

Okay, I did a little test here.

I put on the MB-D10 grip with fully charged AA's on the 'ole D300 and set the cameras battery selection to "D300" (meaning it uses the battery from the D300 first, then the grip's battery power next). Then I set the camera to Ch (Continuous High mode) and shot away. 6.5 fps... I changed the battery setting to "MB-D10" and started firing away. 8 fps...

So, there is obviously something to this voltage thing.

[TNB]

Okay, I did a little test here.

I put on the MB-D10 grip with fully charged AA's on the 'ole D300 and set the cameras battery selection to "D300" (meaning it uses the battery from the D300 first, then the grip's battery power next). Then I set the camera to Ch (Continuous High mode) and shot away. 6.5 fps... I changed the battery setting to "MB-D10" and started firing away. 8 fps...

So, there is obviously something to this voltage thing.

Not so "loud". A certain Canon owner will try to prove you wrong. Either that or actually attempt to use a "Nikon dSLR" and post about it. ;)

[K1W1]

It would be an interesting exercise to measure the actual current draw during the different continuous modes but unless somebody is prepared to offer up a D300 with battery grip for what would maybe be a destructive test I guess the results will remain known only by Nikons Engineers.

[VTEC_EATER]

It would be an interesting exercise to measure the actual current draw during the different continuous modes but unless somebody is prepared to offer up a D300 with battery grip for what would maybe be a destructive test I guess the results will remain known only by Nikons Engineers.

As much as I would like to help, this is one test I am not going to try.

But Im sure this voltage thing has been documented somewhere in the history of Nikon's cameras. The D300 is not the first to use this method to increase continuous high speed shooting. I stole this from the various posts in the link I provided:

The D300 is not the first camera to offer faster repeat speed with an auxillary battery - the F100 was the same. The F4 also went from 4 fps to 5.7 when you added the MB-21.

So Im sure somewhere this is documented. Im just too lazy to look it up. :)

[coldrain]

Eric, I said "electro magnetic" because that is what other types of electrical motors are. Amd they start to run faster with increased voltage.
But piezo electric motors work very very different, and the simplistic view of just putting more voltage through them to gain higher speed is just that, simplistic.

And why keep on returning to the motors, you fail to understand that the camera DOES NOT WAIT for focus, to take the next shot, in shutter priority mode (and that IS the mode you will put the camera in with continuous AF).
So it never ever has an impact, the speed of focusing. With a slow lens it just means very few photos will have correct focus, but you still have 6 or 8 frames per second (if your exposure time is fast enough).

Now if you get your camera out of shutter priority (and so put it in a focus priority mode), the camera will actually wait till the AF system has reached focus lock before you can make a photo. In these focus priority modes you can NOT reach 6 FPS or 8 FPS.

So all this talk about AF motors is very nonsensical in regards to this debate.

And Eric, when you overclock your computer's processor, you do NOT increase the voltage, you increase the clock speed (and by this also increase the voltage). And you can only do that if the component is designed for that (so you see that in computer processors and graphics chips).
Overclocking increases heat production in a big way (as any overclocker will know), and this simply is not happening in a D300.
And increasing voltage does not NEED more batteries or higher voltage batteries, the voltage regulator ICs will provide the correct voltages for the different needs.

TNB, why don't you try to debate in a clean way? You are the one that just slams stuff, without actually going into what is raised, and then you just post a lot of silly stuff and then accuse me of doing what you do.

So... we ruled out that the computer starts to work faster, we ruled out focus motors having an effect, we ruled out the shutter because the shutter mechanic already is so much faster.
We ruled out the motor drive, because DSLRs do not have the motor drive film SLRs have (and those were the things that would offer more performance with a battery grip in the past). We can also rule out lens aperture mechanisms.

The only two options that remain as far as I can see are the mirror flip up/down, and the dodgy "Nikon wants to sell more battery grips" reason.
In that other thread linked to by VTEC it is speculated that the fact that there is more than one battery enables a more stable current between usage peaks. The power still has to go through the exact same voltage regulators though, and buffering power usually is the job of capacitors?

[Rooz]

how the heck do you guys know all this tehcnical stuff ? are y'all engineers or something ? :confused: (serious question). it all seems to go over my head...am i just friggin stupid or what ?

[K1W1]

Most of it is uninformed clap trap that is designed to fool readers into believing the writers point of view.

[coldrain]

how the heck do you guys know all this tehcnical stuff ? are y'all engineers or something ? :confused: (serious question). it all seems to go over my head...am i just friggin stupid or what ?
I have been busy with computers since something like 1987 or so. I have read a lot during the years, of course. I have soldered together ICs to get a silly ZX spectrum to drive some motors and sensors, in the hope to steer stuff. I have designed and built some stabilized power supplies to let some audiophile DACs give better sound (yes, very audiophile geeky stuff).

I have been working as software developer for years, I have worked in a company that automated things with computers, they did things like linking and commanding 4 betamax VCRs for the dutch defense ministry, to be able to quickly evaluate F16 (the fighter jet, not the F-value) training missions, the software and electronics hardware for automating a specialized concrete factory, shows in museums and for EXPOs, specialized presentation systems and such.

I have had an interest in photography gear because of my dad, he was a fine mechanical engineer for Philips' center for technology, and a very good photographer.
I know the names of most flowers, most insects and mushrooms and plants and trees and birds, from where I live. Hmmm... I just have very wide interests, and so I read a lot and therefore a lot of stuff sticks.

So no, you are not stupid at all. I just have very wide interests, and so I read a lot of stuff. And as software developer it helps to be analytical.

[VTEC_EATER]

Im not too familiar with voltages or watts, or electricity in general, but I took a look at the rechargeable batteries I have for my battery grip (or flash depending on the situation), and they are 1.2 volts each. 1.2 volts x 8 batteries is only 9.6 total volts. But the batteries are 2500mAh. I believe the second number is a "capacity" indicator. Does this mean the batteries will last longer, or does this mean that the batteries will sustain 1.2 volts without power drops?

I'm trying to think of power surges, or drops, like in standard home construction outlets. We all know power fluctuates in these cases, but can that happen with NiMH batteries? My guess is no.

Good thing I'm an Architect and not an electrician.

[erichlund]

how the heck do you guys know all this tehcnical stuff ? are y'all engineers or something ? :confused: (serious question).

Yes. To the first part. Mechanical and electrical engineering are not my specialties, but even there, you get a heavy dose of it at the Air Force Academy.


it all seems to go over my head...am i just friggin stupid or what ?

To the second part, no. If you are not interested, you can ignore the conversation. If you are interested, there is lots of more detailed information on the web if you want to look it up. Or, you could just ask for a clarification.

Stupid is when you don't have a clue but try to make yourself our as an expert. The term you are looking for is ignorant. I know it sounds worse, but being ignorant just means you don't know the answer. It does not imply the inability to know the answer if you want to find out. For instance, compared to you, I'm ignorant about using flash, especially for macro work. That's not a bad thing. I'm not particularly interested in macro work, so it doesn't matter that I'm ignorant.

[LR Max]

Don't know about the 8fps. I'd probably never use it on my D300.

I think 3fps is more than plenty for me. I sometimes ramp it up to 5fps for no real reason.

The main reason to get a battery grip is for comfort and excellent battery life. Taking verticals with the battery grip installed is flat out excellent. Extremely comfortable. This is the only reason I am considering a battery grip.

The battery life on the D300 is fairly well. Not as good as my D70s but acceptable. I can do a normal "shoot" (doing my thing) on one battery. I carry a spare just in case. But for an individual who would be shooting all day long, the battery grip with the big D3 battery in it would be a nice addition to increase endurance.

Lastly the battery grip easily separates from the camera body. I like this because I could compact everything down.

8 frames per second is ridiciously fast.

[coldrain]

Im not too familiar with voltages or watts, or electricity in general, but I took a look at the rechargeable batteries I have for my battery grip (or flash depending on the situation), and they are 1.2 volts each. 1.2 volts x 8 batteries is only 9.6 total volts. But the batteries are 2500mAh. I believe the second number is a "capacity" indicator. Does this mean the batteries will last longer, or does this mean that the batteries will sustain 1.2 volts without power drops?

I'm trying to think of power surges, or drops, like in standard home construction outlets. We all know power fluctuates in these cases, but can that happen with NiMH batteries? My guess is no.

Good thing I'm an Architect and not an electrician.
The mAh is mili amps per hour, the energy the batteries can deliver. In case of flashes, it means they are able to charge the capacitors of the flash more quickly (and they last longer).

[erichlund]

And why keep on returning to the motors, you fail to understand that the camera DOES NOT WAIT for focus, to take the next shot, in shutter priority mode (and that IS the mode you will put the camera in with continuous AF).
So it never ever has an impact, the speed of focusing. With a slow lens it just means very few photos will have correct focus, but you still have 6 or 8 frames per second (if your exposure time is fast enough).

You are essentially making my point. You are correct. It's not about speed. It's about drawing power. That's what the whole issue is about. The power needed to make the whole camera go faster. True, the AF does not focus any faster. But that's irrelevant. That baseline load of power is there whether you are driving the shutter at 6fps or 8fps. The basic battery does not have enough power to drive all the camera systems at 8 fps. That, in a nutshell is all the rest of us are saying. This AF load is probably very high. I would suspect that if you switch the camera to manual focus (where the camera will fire whether it is in focus or not), that it could also reach 8fps.

Now if you get your camera out of shutter priority (and so put it in a focus priority mode), the camera will actually wait till the AF system has reached focus lock before you can make a photo. In these focus priority modes you can NOT reach 6 FPS or 8 FPS.

You obviously are not reading Nikon manuals. Shutter priority is only about selecting shutter speed and letting the camera select aperture. I can select Aperture priority and still be in continuous autofocus (AF-C), because that is a different switch (on the front of the camera, near where your left hand grips the lens, to the chagrin of people who grip the camera at the joint of lens and body, accidently moving this switch). Actually, if you put the camera in AF-C and Aperture priority, set the lens wide open and shoot in a bright summer day, I'm pretty sure it will quite happily give you the 8fps. The reason they say shutter priority or manual is that then they can guarantee at least a 1/250th shutter speed. That's the real requirement, if you are careful in properly interpreting what the manual is saying. Perhaps one of our D300 owners (with grip) can try this out.


So... we ruled out that the computer starts to work faster,

We never even claimed the cameras computer needed to work faster.

we ruled out focus motors having an effect,

No, we have established that it is still a baseline power requirement. It may not increase with camera speed, but it still eats power to operate, just as the computer functions eat power.

we ruled out the shutter because the shutter mechanic already is so much faster.

It isn't about shutter speed, it's about cycle. Think of a car battery. They are very good at providing short bursts of power, because that is what they are designed for. However, they are not nearly as efficient as other designs at providing sustained power. Now, the shutter is on the opposite side of the equation, as a user. It requires power for a single shutter release. Probably requires more power for a faster shutter speed, but not significantly, and the smaller battery has sufficient power to drive it at 6fps. But, to sustain a higher rate, more power may be required. The evidence of actual users seems to agree with this. The larger battery seems required in order for the camera to sustain operation at 8fps. Again, this is all that is really being said.

We ruled out the motor drive, because DSLRs do not have the motor drive film SLRs have (and those were the things that would offer more performance with a battery grip in the past).

This is just silly. Nobody has said there is a motor drive. Why would you even bring it up????

We can also rule out lens aperture mechanisms.

In shutter priority, the camera decides what aperture to use. If you are shooting 8fps and panning, that may require aperture changes. Still, I suspect this is a trivial drain.

The only two options that remain as far as I can see are the mirror flip up/down

You can tie this to the shutter, and is probably the biggest drain of all, since it is the heaviest element that is moved at a variable rate (6 vs 8 fps)

, and the dodgy "Nikon wants to sell more battery grips" reason.

I don't think anyone said this other than tongue in cheek.

In that other thread linked to by VTEC it is speculated that the fact that there is more than one battery enables a more stable current between usage peaks. The power still has to go through the exact same voltage regulators though, and buffering power usually is the job of capacitors?

I suspect that the camera only uses one battery or the other, but the higher capacity battery still enables the same higher level of stable current for the higher sustained exposure rate.

[TNB]

TNB, why don't you try to debate in a clean way? You are the one that just slams stuff, without actually going into what is raised, and then you just post a lot of silly stuff and then accuse me of doing what you do.

Ok spindoctor, I'm not the one who owns a Canon Rebel, yet going out of his way to post on the Nikon dSLR subforums. I'm also the one providing links to other websites and not just typing away. I've also asked you to meet me at PMA and we can actually bring this up together at Nikon. Out of curiosity, just how many times have you had your membership suspended/banned on this forum? Two, three, more?

[coldrain]

You do not understand what I mean with shutter priority vs. focus priority, Eric. And it really is not complex!

Shutter priority: the camera takes a photo when the user tells it to, WITHOUT waiting on focus lock.

Focus priority: the camera takes a photo ONLY when the camera decides focus lock is reached. If the camera can not establish focus, no photo can be made.

I am NOT talking about aperture- versus exposure time priority modes on the mode dial!

Even if the words "shutter priority" make you think of that mode wheel, still the rest of the text should give you a hint about what I am talking about.

So are you finally clear on what the use of the words "shutter priority" means in relation to actually the timing of making a photo? Then read my posts again. About why AF speed is NOT a factor in FPS (only a factor in the number of keepers).
So, my guess is AF-C means what AI-Servo means with Canon. And that AF mode is a shutter priority auto focus mode. It does NOT wait on focus lock, it makes a photo when the shutter button is pressed.
The other AF modes make a photo only after focus lock is reached.
Do you understand now why all that motor blurb, whether it is elecro magnetic or ultrasonic piezo, has no relation to the FPS?

And you can drop the "we" stuff.
"we" never claimed the computer needed to work faster? TNB has done nothing else. Go slam him for it, not me.

And about the motor drive, it was brought up by VTEC.

The D300 is not the first camera to offer faster repeat speed with an auxillary battery - the F100 was the same. The F4 also went from 4 fps to 5.7 when you added the MB-21.

There, that is about a motor drive needing the extra power. And that is what I was referring too, really not so complex to understand.

[tcadwall]

CR - I think I speak for all when I say we all knew what you meant when you incorrectly used the term "Shutter Priority". I think he was just pointing out the inaccuracy. The point he is making is that the focus system IS still working, it just isn't holding up the process. You seemed at one point to give the impression that you didn't believe that there was an AF draw, because it wasn't functioning after the first frame... when that isn't the case, it is still working, it just is not requiring a lock before the actuation of the shutter.

One thing that could be missing in this whole equation, is that there are terms such as "multi-tasking" and "time-slicing" that haven't come into the discussion. Could it simply be that with all that is going on, "time-slicing" is used to govern the voltage usage at 6fps, whereas having more volts available, certain functions can occur simultaneously (in a multi-tasking mode) that previously had to "wait their turn" in order to not draw more power than is available? Could there not be a voltage sensor in the camera, that automatically allows mechanical functions to share the power when sufficient power is available?

[TNB]

And you can drop the "we" stuff.
"we" never claimed the computer needed to work faster? TNB has done nothing else. Go slam him for it, not me.
If you are going to quote me troll, quote me. Here's an example of your slam that started all this mess.


And the same with the battery grip from the D300... with it you can shoot more FPS? What the hell do more frames per second have to do with a grip, or with more batteries?
Just ways to get more money from the D300 owner who obviously often can and will afford it, I guess.

[coldrain]

CR - I think I speak for all when I say we all knew what you meant when you incorrectly used the term "Shutter Priority". I think he was just pointing out the inaccuracy. The point he is making is that the focus system IS still working, it just isn't holding up the process. You seemed at one point to give the impression that you didn't believe that there was an AF draw, because it wasn't functioning after the first frame... when that isn't the case, it is still working, it just is not requiring a lock before the actuation of the shutter.
It is not an incorrect use of shutter priority. AF-C simply is a shutter priority AF mode. That you guys only can think of shutter time priority metering/exposure... I can not help?

So to use different words:
single servo AF (AF-S?) -> Focus priority
continuous servo AF (AF-C?) -> release priority

Get it now? AF motors have nothing to do with the FPS, the camera will not wait on focus lock.

And I never have said the AF system ceases to work either, not even close (I only mentioned that VERY clearly only with a D3 in DX 11 FPS mode!). Read posts correctly?

[tcadwall]

I said "you seemed to give the impression" - that is because you introduced a different model into the discussion. I didn't say that you DID say that.

Still, my points haven't been addressed. Does it not make sense that time-slicing vs multitasking could be a good firmware way of handling this? I mean, most prosumers will be happy with 6fps, we can eeke out 8fps if we have a higher voltage requirement, so we will give that capability to the more serious photographers, and allow them to attain it with a higher powered battery option in the vertical grip that many of these users will want an excuse to have anyway.

[tcadwall]

Maybe I wasn't very clear since I am not an EE...

And I may even be missing some steps here, feel free to add to them.

1) Aperture is wide open
2) Constant focus and metering "attempt"
3) Aperture Stopped to exposure setting
4) Mirror - up
5) Shutter open
6) Shutter close
7) mirror down
8) Aperture open
-back to 2 while processing / writing files

The way I see it these mechanical steps each draw power. And while more power may not be used for the individual functions, we all seem to agree that something like the mirror-up might be the biggest hog.

So if the camera was to start multi-tasking on things like #3 and #4 and possibly even #6, #7, and #8 could more speed not theoretically be achieved?

Oh and keep in mind that worst - case is what the design would be based on... And the big variable would be the lens. How much power does it take to open / close an aperture on a very large lens, going to say f/32

[coldrain]

In your camera there is not Intel Core Duo or something, you can't translate everything you have heard about or read about in computer mags to your camera's computer.

Your newly introduced terms have little or nothing to do with your camera or a D300. And again, your camera's processor does NOT run in the voltages your batteries state to deliver. The different required voltages are delivered by voltage regulator ICs.
The power supply part of the camera boards will take whatever they are designed to be able to receive and transform than into the different voltage signals the different components need. Whether you power them with the single basis battery, or with the extra grip batteries.

If a processor, like in your computer, is designed to have a lower clockspeed/lower voltage energy saving mode, changing to that mode and back does NOT mean you have to switch the power supply to a higher voltage, now does it?

You can come up with all kinds of odd computer tangents... but why do I have to 'answer' those off-beat ideas?

[coldrain]

Maybe I wasn't very clear since I am not an EE...

And I may even be missing some steps here, feel free to add to them.

1) Aperture is wide open
2) Constant focus and metering "attempt"
3) Aperture Stopped to exposure setting
4) Mirror - up
5) Shutter open
6) Shutter close
7) mirror down
8) Aperture open
-back to 2 while processing / writing files

The way I see it these mechanical steps each draw power. And while more power may not be used for the individual functions, we all seem to agree that something like the mirror-up might be the biggest hog.

So if the camera was to start multi-tasking on things like #3 and #4 and possibly even #6, #7, and #8 could more speed not theoretically be achieved?
The camera has at least 3 systems that work independent already, actually.
So the camera already "multi tasks" without it being the camera's computer's processor.

1. The AF system, it does its task autonomously.
2. The system that "listens" to the interface, this probably is handled by the same system that also handles the image processing and saving, so the main computer system.
3. The lens and its motor electronics (at least with lenses that have their own AF motor). This too works autonomously, but gets commands from the camera's AF module.

So, already the camera has 3 different computer systems working together. Pretty neat stuff. What operating system the different camera manufacturers use is usually a closely guarded secret. I do know that from canon it probably is known, because there are some hackers that program very impressive firmware hacks for compact digital Canon cameras together.

[tcadwall]

CR - should I bow as I write your name, you seem to have totally missed my point. Multi-tasking and time-slicing date way back before an intel based design. Multi-tasking and time-slicing are also processes that most of us humans also do. can you hit the accelerator AND turn the steering wheel at the same time, or do you only do one at a time in increments?

[tcadwall]

Again, you are too hung up on the "computing" part. The computer controls the mechanical, and the bottle-neck could be that the voltage requirements for stopping down the aperture + the voltage requirement for raising the mirror could be done simultaneously, but that voltage requirement might conflict with the design goal of a smaller or less expensive battery. So the compromise is made to do a sequential process instead of a simultaneous process. If more power is available, then that is no longer a limitation. - introducing, the smarts to recognize that there is an aftermarket (grip-based) power supply that meets the demands

[coldrain]

CR - should I bow as I write your name, you seem to have totally missed my point. Multi-tasking and time-slicing date way back before an intel based design. Multi-tasking and time-slicing are also processes that most of us humans also do. can you hit the accelerator AND turn the steering wheel at the same time, or do you only do one at a time in increments?
They have nothing what so ever to do with voltages delivered by different batteries. THAT is my point.

I am a technical software developer, I do have a slight idea what multitasking stands for.

But what does it have to do with an increase in FPS. Nothing. And that was MY point when I wrote:

You can come up with all kinds of odd computer tangents... but why do I have to 'answer' those off-beat ideas?

[tcadwall]

I am a technical software developer, I do have a slight idea what multitasking stands for.
One that I certainly would not hire. You continue to either miss or skirt the issue.

So are you telling me that there is not a specific voltage requirement for a mirror up, and there is not a separate voltage requirement for stopping the aperture? and maybe more timing critical, but there is not another voltage requirement for a shutter return?

That possibly doing all of these with an over-lap rather than sequentially, potentially would require more voltage?

[erichlund]

You do not understand what I mean with shutter priority vs. focus priority, Eric. And it really is not complex!

Shutter priority: the camera takes a photo when the user tells it to, WITHOUT waiting on focus lock.

No. I understand. You are a Canon user. Canon uses Tv for the shooting mode that Nikon calls S - Shutter Priority, and I forget what that is in English(OK, here's the really wierd thing - I took the time to download the EOS 40D manual. Canon uses shutter priority the same way Nikon does!!! So, now you have me really confused). The rest of the world believes Shutter Priority to mean that you set the Shutter Speed and the camera chooses the Aperture. You are the only one confusing this with focus mode. On this Nikon forum, please have the courtesy to use Nikon terminology. Nikon has three Focus modes AF-C: Continuous Servo Autofocus, AF-S: SINGLE Servo Autofocus, and M: Manual Focus. Shutter Priority is NOT a focus mode. This is straight out of the Nikon manuals. They are available on line. There are two other terms associated with AF-S and AF-C. AF-S is associated with a term "focus priority" and AF-C is associated with a term "release priority". Release Priority has the meaning you are using Shutter Priority for. It is incorrect to use Shutter Priority with Nikon cameras in relation to focusing.

I am NOT talking about aperture- versus exposure time priority modes on the mode dial!

You are when you are talking Nikon cameras to Nikon users.

Even if the words "shutter priority" make you think of that mode wheel, still the rest of the text should give you a hint about what I am talking about.

So are you finally clear on what the use of the words "shutter priority" means in relation to actually the timing of making a photo? Then read my posts again. About why AF speed is NOT a factor in FPS (only a factor in the number of keepers).

I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT AF SPEED IS A FACTOR. Only that the continuous AF results in a continuous load on the battery that must be considered as part of the total load.

So, my guess is AF-C means what AI-Servo means with Canon. And that AF mode is a shutter priority auto focus mode. It does NOT wait on focus lock, it makes a photo when the shutter button is pressed.
The other AF modes make a photo only after focus lock is reached.
Do you understand now why all that motor blurb, whether it is elecro magnetic or ultrasonic piezo, has no relation to the FPS?

Again, this is a Nikon forum. Use either common terminology or, preferably, Nikon terminology. Canon specific terminology has no business here. Shutter Priority under common terminology is NOT a focus mode. It is a shooting mode where the Shutter speed is set by the user and the camera chooses the aperture. A quick way to confirm this. Type shutter priority into your favorite search engine. I did and 100% of the page 1 results were as I expected.

I have no idea what AI-Servo is on a Canon and don't care. You will note that I only rarely post on the Canon forums, and only when I can contribute something helpful. The term you wish to use here is AF-C. In full language, it is Continuous Servo Autofocus. Wow, it's actually descriptive of the actual behavior.

And you can drop the "we" stuff.
"we" never claimed the computer needed to work faster? TNB has done nothing else. Go slam him for it, not me.

Hey, I was only mimicing (sp???) you. But, if you haven't noticed, we are the rest of us, as opposed to...you.

And about the motor drive, it was brought up by VTEC.

In reference, very specifically, to film based cameras. I haven't tried putting any film in my D200. The cannisters won't fit in the card slot.


There, that is about a motor drive needing the extra power. And that is what I was referring too, really not so complex to understand.

It's not complex. In fact, it's quite simple. You only mentioned it to be obtuse. No one was suggesting that a motor drive really has any impact on this discussion, but only that historically, Nikon has used an external grip in the past to provide more power to get higher frame rates. I did the same thing with my Canon A-1. Without the grip my frame rate was 1 frame per press, and as fast as I could advance the film. With the autowinder, I think I could get 3 frames per second (And, with the finicky sprockets on the Canon A-1, it meant that I could sometimes not advance the film at 3 frames per second :p). I don't recall the exact speed. But that has NOTHING to do with frame rates on digital cameras, and I would not suggest that it does.

[K1W1]

Stop!

Everybody stop posting, take a deep breath and think about how silly most of you are looking.
You are going around and around, bitching at each other and getting nowhere as far as the topic of the thread is concerned.

[tcadwall]

LOL!
Come on, you aren't able to enjoy this? Really, I think it is worth talking out. If there is a claim that a feature is crippled unless you spend more money, then I think that some discussion is appropriate. Especially if it is in a separate thread. I did find the topic disruptive when it was off - topic, but all people have to do is either skip the thread, or if they are interested, read or post.

I agree, there is more ugliness that needs to occur, but really, some people only seem to speak that language. The great technical software developer seems to enjoy taking shots, more than open-minded discussion. But that doesn't mean everyone should stop the discussion.

[VTEC_EATER]

Look at K1W1 takin' the law into his own hands. ;)

I'm still curious as to what specifically requires the additional power to get the additional 2 fps. There must be something written into the processor of the D300 that basically "locks out" the ability to shoot at 8 fps unless a certain voltage requirement is met. Now, we know that the regular EN-EL3 battery only has 7.4 volts, but what if there were an aftermarket (3rd party) battery out there that had a higher voltage capacity?

If that battery were installed into the standard battery slot in the D300, would you be able to achieve 8 fps? Maybe not. Maybe there is a second requirement that only allows the camera to achieve 8fps if you are using said battery in the battery grip.

Who know. Its all a mystery, I guess.

But at least there is an option out there for D300 users to achieve 8fps. I don't see Canon coming out with anything like that for their 40D. Looks like they are stuck at 6.5fps (claimed by Canon) with that camera and have to buy a completely different, and much more expensive, body to get 8 fps.

[Rooz]

well, screw you all. i have a camera that shoots at 100fps. it's called a video camera. :p

(no i have no idea what fps video is, i just made it up lol)

[erichlund]

The funny thing is, for the vast majority of people, it's a completely irrelevant subject. When you first get the camera, you just need to take some completely worthless shots at the maximum frame rate. But after that, you basically shoot single shot.

I'm not saying it's not useful, just that most people probably don't use it. I've used it to take a bracket set for HDR. I tried it out at a dance competition, but found I got better results by just choosing my shots. Still, action photographers seem the most likely users. We landscape shooters don't have as much worry "catching the moment".

[Rooz]

i'd be interested to know how much action shooters really value the difference between 6fps and 8fps. TNB comes to mind as i suppose a good person to answer this, i doubt you;re gonna get stuff moving much faster than those RC things.

[TNB]

i'd be interested to know how much action shooters really value the difference between 6fps and 8fps. TNB comes to mind as i suppose a good person to answer this, i doubt you;re gonna get stuff moving much faster than those RC things.
When I moved up from 2.5fps to 5fps, I noticed the difference quite a bit and could see when 8fps would be nice--ever hear the difference in sounds made by a D2Xs to a D200? Don't get me wrong, I don't shoot in "rock and roll" mode all the time. However, if a crash happens, it's nice to be locked and loaded.

To me, the increased frame rate could provide more of a choice of one sequence shot over another. For example, I may be not only to capture a part breaking, but that same part breaking from another angle; not only the ball hitting the bat, but the bat actually breaking and twisting as well; or simply be provided with a better optional and less distracting background for the target itself.

Not that there isn't a possiblity to capture such shots with a slower frame rate camera, but to me the increased frame rate can provide more photos and options to choose from when composing on the fly. ;) One can think about a horse race and the finishline--a photo finish shown frame by frame. In this case, one is able to simply choose the photo that he or she believes is better over another photo that a camera with a slower frame rate would have missed.

[VTEC_EATER]

I would imagine it comes in handy for anyone who is shooting fast action and is really looking for that split second moment. For example, some baseball player hitting that home run to win the game, or a football (American) player hitting some quarterback. Or the nature photographer who is shooting some crazy animal action like an eagle grabbing its prey, or a lion killing a gazel.

Things like that is where it may be helpful.

In things like panning with motorsports (which I do a lot of), it is probably slightly less important unless there is some critical passing going on where some contact may be made.

Its nice to have the option though.

[TNB]

In things like panning with motorsports (which I do a lot of), it is probably slightly less important unless there is some critical passing going on where some contact may be made.
Hence, my photo-finish horse racing example. ;)

[tcadwall]

I have a nice sequence of a car crash at a race. It is pretty impressive to see how many spins and how far he ended up at the end of the sequence. Especially since he was coming at me and just passed me as he came to a stop.

I have also noticed that when I am taking group pictures, it provides a much greater chance of getting a good shot of a group... 10 people, not everyone has the best facial expression at the same time, but you have a better chance if you shoot a sequence.

I am curious as to what 8fps would do at a baseball game. With 3fps, a sequence does me NO good. The ball coming off the bat MUST be timed.

[tcadwall]

Rooz, that is a pretty impressive video camera. Most only achieve 30fps and that normally is really less because it is "drop-frame". Of course that isn't really the same, since only high-end cameras will capture that progressively instead of interlaced.

[BUTL950]

sorry but i just HAD to add this...

http://www.gizmag.com/ultra-fast-casio-exilim-pro-ex-f1/8609/

[TNB]

sorry but i just HAD to add this...
I also noticed that a certain member had banned under his user name, again.