Indoor ultrazoom hi-IQ lo-MP camera needed

[leek]

Budget

* What budget have you allocated for buying this camera? Please be as specific as possible.
Cost is not an issue.

Size

* What size camera are you looking for? Or does size not matter at all to you?

SLR-like or compact, but not as heavy as SLR+lens.

Not subcompact (too compromising in IQ, less ergonomic).

Features

How many megapixels will suffice for you?
4

Quality more important than quantity. I'd trade 12 bad MPs for 4 good ones any day!!! Someone needs to put an end to the MP war, which is killing so many good photos.

* What optical zoom will you need? (None, Standard = 3x-4x, Ultrazoom = 10x-12x, Other - Specify)
Ultrazoom; 8x minimum

* How important is “image quality” to you? (Rate using a scale of 1-10)
9

Do you care for manual controls?
Yes, manual control is preferred.

General Usage

* What will you generally use the camera for?
Indoor, moving shots.

This camera will rarely be used with tripod/monopod, and will be used for ad hoc action scenes. So light weight, and no attaching and removing of lenses, is highly preferred.

* Will you be making big prints of your photos or not?
Probably not. I intend only to view and share the pictures electronically.

However, I might zoom and crop action scenes from time to time. But this does not IMO justify increasing the MP at the expense of IQ. (Sorry for all the initalizers there :))

Will you be shooting a lot of indoor photos or low light photos?

Yes

Will you be shooting sports and/or action photos?

Yes

Miscellaneous

Are there particular brands you like or hate?

I like Canon and its camera's interfaces; I'm skeptical about Sony; I'm neutral about others.

Are there particular models you already have in mind?

See: http://tinyurl.com/yoqama

I already own a Canon S5 IS, but low-light performance and wide-angle view is lacking (wide-angle adapter exists but lowers image quality and increases bulk so as to not be worth it).

The Panasonic DMC-FZ50 and smaller DMC-FZ8 seem promising, but from what I've read their image quality is not much better than the S5's, especially in low-light, which is surprising given the FZ50's larger sensor.

The Fuji FinePix S6000fd/S9000/S9100 is another band of choices, but I've heard it's slow for action (I'm not sure about this). Also it lacks IS, which is preferred but not absolutely necessary. Also, the controls might be harder to use than the Panasonic/Canon's. Finally, the indoor shots I've seen look noisy.

(If applicable) Do you need any of the following special features? (Wide Angle, Image Stabilization, Weatherproof, Hotshoe, Rotating LCD)

Movie mode is required, which unfortunately excludes DSLR (until someone comes up with a dual-function DSLR/movie camera, even if it requires two sensors and lenses -- I dream of a DSLR/movie camera with two lenses which can be used separately or combined in certain modes to form 3d pictures).

Wide angle would be a big plus, for indoor room shots, but is less important than IQ.

Out-of-production cameras are okay; I can find them on eBay and elsewhere.

In fact, the best SLR-like ultrazoom from 2-5 years ago, before the rapidly escalating MP war started would be nice, if such a thing even exists.

Before you say that what I ask for is impossible, :) keep in mind that I'm not asking for high MP. Whether it means putting fewer pixels across a small sensor, or better postprocessing, I am okay as long as the final image quality is good. Too much noise vs. too much noise reduction is an issue which should be addressed before manufacturers jump on the MP bandwagon.

Should I keep my S5, roll back to an S3 at the expense of LCD size and hot shoe, or go for alternatives like the FZ50 and S6000fd?

[SpecialK]

I doubt there is anything that will meet all your requirements. Not sure if you want to use flash, which makes high ISO noise less of an issue. Why an ultrazoom indoors? Some Fujis (FD31) are reputedly good in low light, but the lens is a bit limited on the tele end.

You certainly won't gain anything by "rolling back" to a S3IS...

[leek]

I doubt there is anything that will meet all your requirements. Why an ultrazoom indoors?
To zoom in on subjects like very small animals without getting close to them. (Also, the flash scares them.)

To record indoor sporting events or other performances. (The flash isn't allowed, or is too distracting.)

To capture spur-of-the-moment family events, like kids playing on the floor across a 30-foot room.

The list could go on.

Some Fujis (FD31) are reputedly good in low light, but the lens is a bit limited on the tele end.
I'll check them out.

You certainly won't gain anything by "rolling back" to a S3IS...
Sorry, I was lead to believe that the S3's IQ was better than the S5's. Plus the CHDK hack works with the S3, but not the S5 yet.

[SpecialK]

To zoom in on subjects like very small animals without getting close to them. (Also, the flash scares them.)

To record indoor sporting events or other performances. (The flash isn't allowed, or is too distracting.)

To capture spur-of-the-moment family events, like kids playing on the floor across a 30-foot room.

The list could go on.


I'll check them out.


Sorry, I was lead to believe that the S3's IQ was better than the S5's. Plus the CHDK hack works with the S3, but not the S5 yet.


I don't think alll that is gonna happen with a compact at least. Compacts have a bit of a shutter lag (making split second captures very rare) and low light perfomance is not so hot.

The S3 (and S5) are crap in low light (high ISO), which is why I said you would not gain anything though the S3 does have slightly better performance due to fewer pixels. Still crap :-(

Still, the Fujis are probably the best try...

[leek]

I don't think alll that is gonna happen with a compact at least. Compacts have a bit of a shutter lag (making split second captures very rare) and low light perfomance is not so hot.

I don't care that much about size. It is even less important than weight. (Of couse smaller is better up to a point, all else being equal.)

I want these qualities of DSLR:

DSLR sensor size
DSLR image quality
DSLR speed
Where I differ from DSLR:

I need movie mode.
EVF is fine -- optical VF, the raison d'être of film SLR, is no longer necessary with digital cameras. Especially for quick moving shots. You can see what the sensor sees, without the need for a moving mirror which interferes with movies.
Non-DSLR qualities I don't want:

Astronomical MP on microscopic sensor.
Subcompact (even the Canon G9 is too small to be comfortable).
Don't cares:

Size (as long as it's not subcompact)
Cost
Brand
Lens interchangeability
SLR lens compatibility
Aspect ratio
Battery life
It seems the digital camera market has created a hole in the prosumer market by cutting costs down too low on the low-end, and by emulating film SLR in the high-end. Only this past year was live mode even available on DSLRs. How much longer will we have to wait until we can get a "DSLR" with EVF and movie mode? That'll be the day.

(Note: To me, "SLR" means "reflex viewfinder", not "interchangable lens" or "large size". Movie mode is still compatible with interchangable lens and large size and I am not opposed to them if it will improve high-ISO performance.)

If there are any older digital point and shoot cameras, even in the 2-4 MP range, which meet these requirements, I'd consider them. I've seen many consumer products where the "middle" is squeezed out by both ends over time. Perhaps some earlier point and shoot digital cameras had lower MP, but had DSLR quality.

Checking...

Sony R1? No movie mode (unless someone has hacked it in).
Sigma DP1? Vaporware.
Sony DSC-F717? Limited to 128 MB of memory.
Minolta DiMAGE 7Hi? Sub-VGA movies, limited to 60 seconds.
Nikon Coolpix 8700? Limited to 35 seconds VGA mode.
Canon Powershot Pro1? The S5 seems better in every respect except sensor size.
Samsung Pro815? Slow shutter lag and 30 second movie limit. Poor in low or indoor light.
Minolta DiMAGE A200? Not sure. Any experience out there?
Sony DSC-F828? Not sure but reviews say quality suffers.

Is there some site where you can search by sensor size? All the major review sites have MP but not sensor size as a search parameter.

The S3 (and S5) are crap in low light (high ISO), which is why I said you would not gain anything though the S3 does have slightly better performance due to fewer pixels. Still crap :-(

Still, the Fujis are probably the best try...

Thanks.

[David Metsky]

Your requirements are unmeetable. There is nothing with a sensor the size of the dSLR that isn't a dSLR; nothing. Drop that requirement now. There's also nothing with the speed of a dSLR that isn't a dSLR, drop that one too.

Image Quality is subjective, but in general nothing is going to compare to a dSLR either. If you don't shoot at high ISO or need to blow them up big you will have acceptable quality, but it's not dSLR level.

For ultrazooms, they all have EVF, so this isn't an issue.

Closest thing you'll find is the Fuji S6000 or S9000 - but they're not the same as a dSLR. If you go in with that expectations you'll be sorely disappointed. Sounds like the best solution for you would be a real dSLR and a small video camera.

[leek]

Your requirements are unmeetable. There is nothing with a sensor the size of the dSLR that isn't a dSLR; nothing.

Except the Sony R1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/08/technology/circuits/08pogue.ready.html?pagewanted=all) :rolleyes:

So there are precedents, even if they are not the best technology today.

Drop that requirement now. There's also nothing with the speed of a dSLR that isn't a dSLR, drop that one too.

Ah, phase detection vs contrast measurement. Your AF assistance is appreciated, even if it's not green :D

Image Quality is subjective, but in general nothing is going to compare to a dSLR either. If you don't shoot at high ISO or need to blow them up big you will have acceptable quality, but it's not dSLR level.

Ah, quality vs noise -- the two are not complementary ;)

For ultrazooms, they all have EVF, so this isn't an issue.

That was more a comment than a requirement. OVF and live preview are also acceptable, at least for me. I'm 6' tall and usually have to kneel or sit to use a VF if a tripod is used. Also, using a VF can be hectic during an action scene where you're moving along with the subject, so live preview is a plus. When the R1 first came out this was unheard of, but now most new DSLRs are coming out with live preview.

Closest thing you'll find is the Fuji S6000 or S9000 - but they're not the same as a dSLR. If you go in with that expectations you'll be sorely disappointed. Sounds like the best solution for you would be a real dSLR and a small video camera.

Know of any battery grip with a built-in videocam? :confused:

(Oops, I let my secret out. Now I know it won't be patentable. :o)

[griptape]

A lot of people are speculating that the Canon XTi's replacement (announcement expected late january/february) will have a movie mode. The camera you're looking for simply doesn't exist as of yet.

[leek]

griptape: Interesting, I had not heard that. A movie Rebel :) I wish it were a little bigger than the current XTi though -- with a lens attached, the XTi's body seems disproportionately small.

In case it wasn't clear earlier, I was not advocating buying a Sony R1. It's heavy, probably not up to modern removable storage standards (speeds, capacities, etc.), has a less-than-ideal LCD display, has trouble focusing in low light, etc. (any AF assistance volunteers? :D). I was just making the point that non-SLR digital cameras with large sensors exist. Technically there's no reason they can't exist.

On the topic of DSLRs with movie mode, or large-sensor digicams with movie mode, whichever you're thinking about (people often blur the distinction), here's an interesting and heated thread (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=18200461) (I was not involved).

[Rooz]

i've asked this question about movie mode before. how does the movie zoom work...is it dependant on the lens used ? ie: if you have the kit lens on do you only zom out 55mm but then if you whack on the 100-400mm do you get 400mm zoom but only 100mm at the narrow end ? do fixed focal length lens' have no zoom ? will it only work on some lens' ? what about older glass ? does the quality of the movie depend on the lens used ? ie: will you get a clarity of movie from an 85 f1.4 as you would with a 18-55 kit lens ? will it have sound ? if so, where's the mic gonna go ?

sounds complicated to me. not to mention imo, completely unnecessary in a dslr.

[David Metsky]

Technically there's no reason they can't exist.
No one has argued that. The point is, none currently exist. I had assumed you were looking for an existing camera, since you posted in the "Which Camera Should I Buy?" forum. :)

The closest thing you'll find on the market today is the Fuji S6000 or S9000.

[leek]

i've asked this question about movie mode before. how does the movie zoom work ...is it dependant on the lens used ? ie: if you have the kit lens on do you only zom out 55mm but then if you whack on the 100-400mm do you get 400mm zoom but only 100mm at the narrow end ?

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but it sounds like you're asking whether movie mode requires fixing the lens at one the ends of its zoom, and whether movie mode will only work with kit lenses. I don't know. I see no reason why it should be limited like that.

It is probably based on the same technology as live preview, and that certainly isn't picky about lenses.

So the zoom would depend on the lens used, which is how you would want it to be. Maximum flexibility.

do fixed focal length lens' have no zoom ?

If by "has zoom" you mean that the ratio of the minimum and maximum focal lengths of the lens is greater than 1, then the answer is that they have no zoom. Do I win a prize? ;)

If by "has zoom" you mean that the user is able to zoom while recording video, then no, there is no zoom in the fixed lens case, but the camera might or might not allow zoom during movies with zoom lenses.

If by "has zoom" you mean that they have an effective magnification greater than 1, then the answer depends on the focal length of the lens and camera. On the XTi, a fixed focal length lens >= 22 mm would "have zoom".

will it only work on some lens' ? what about older glass ? does the quality of the movie depend on the lens used ?

This depends on the specifics of the model. There is no reason in principle that old glass or new kit lenses shouldn't work just as well.

The big question to me, is autofocus.

ie: will you get a clarity of movie from an 85 f1.4 as you would with a 18-55 kit lens ?
That depends on whether the movie mode's autofocus can handle that much lens speed. If it can't, then maybe movie mode will require using slower lenses.

Personally, I prefer a large a depth of field for videos, so that I can decide what to focus on when viewing them later. I've had so many cases of "Ah, what's that over there in the corner? It's too fuzzy to tell." I would only want to use a small depth of field for planned videos or videos where one thing is being focused on for a long time, and in those cases I would use a camcorder, not a digicam nor a DSLR.

It might be acceptable for a DSLR's movie mode to limit aperture size.

will it have sound ? if so, where's the mic gonna go ?
Good question. Many digicams freeze zoom during movies because of the noise issue (happily the S5 doesn't). I don't care for shutter sounds, real or artificial -- it seems that an LED blinking, or an acknowledgment in the viewfinder, is sufficient.

If the mechanics can be made to work quietly, and the microphone is properly situated, audio may work.

sounds complicated to me. not to mention imo, completely unnecessary in a dslr.
Sounds promising to me, if someone can pull it off without compromising DSLR quality.

[leek]

No one has argued that. The point is, none currently exist.

I saw a new Sony R1 for sale yesterday for $1350. For that money I'd be better off getting a 40D.

I had assumed you were looking for an existing camera, since you posted in the "Which Camera Should I Buy?" forum. :)

I thought I made it clear that I was willing to buy current or discontinued models, in new or used condition. I must have missed the forum rule which says "Discontinued models are off-topic."

The closest thing you'll find on the market today is the Fuji S6000 or S9000.

Actually those models have been officially discontinued too, but are still available new in many places.

I think I'm going to wait to see the Canon 50D or 450D.