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View Full Version : Flagship (A900?) release-announcement?



DonSchap
12-19-2007, 07:18 AM
Has anyone caught wind of some upcoming "Full Frame" release-announcement coming from SONY, prior to PMA 2008?

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The buzz is up ... so I ask: "When? Where?" ... and, of course, "how much?"

This could be the killer-shot heard 'round the world ... or, just another monster-sensor, full-frame introduction. LOL

swpars
12-19-2007, 07:25 AM
It will be interesting to see the engineering solution that Sony uses to integrate a full-frame sensor and in-body image (sensor shift) stabilization.

DonSchap
12-19-2007, 07:35 AM
I can think of at least one member of the DCRP that will be extremely interested. LOL :)

... and he doesn't even own a SONY.

And they said, "It couldn't be done." I've heard it before ... and we shall see. :rolleyes:

SONYNUT
12-19-2007, 04:16 PM
http://www.roumazeilles.net/news/en/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/nouveau_sony_pma.jpeg

coldrain
12-19-2007, 04:23 PM
Haha, too funny Don. I saw you wondering out loud on dyxum how SSS could work with full frame. And some Minolta fan boy told you off about it, without explaining why is was so weird to think it would not be possible.

Anyway.. the only way they can make a DSLR with A mount full frame AND have SSS, is to have the camera be a cropped camera (like 1.3x or so) while SSS is activated, and have no SSS while in full frame mode.

Simply looking at your full frame film Dynax will make you understand why. Look at how big the mirror is in the mirror box.
Know that the sensor of the KM 7D can move 5mm up, down, left, right.
So... we know that the mirror box, AND the image circle of the full frame lenses, are make to exactly just fit the 36mm wide full frame film.
So... 5 mm from the left, 5mm from the right. 5mm up, 5mm down.

Worst case scenario:
The sensor moves 5cm to a side and up. So... the corner moves out of the image circle more than 5mm, say 7mm.

So... the sensor needs to be... 14mm less wide than 36mm. That makes 22mm. Yikes, that is APS-C territory.

So... lets assume you do not really move the full 5 mm ever.
Suppose it is just 2mm max. Then the 3mm into the corner (moving both horizontally and vertically) would give a 30mm wide sensor.

1/30 * 36 = 1.2. So 1.2x crop + SSS then should be possible.

One does not need to be a rocket scientist to understand the physical limitations... full frame + SSS just does not fit.

Anyway, after reading that silly stuff on Dyxum, I googled, since I know you will never take my word or logic.

Here is a guy with the exact same view:
http://alphatracks.com/archives/81

SONYNUT
12-19-2007, 06:45 PM
the one pictured is bigger than the 700.......personally i could do without the stabilization

SONYNUT
12-19-2007, 06:52 PM
the one pictured is bigger than the 700.......personally i could do without the stabilization

DonSchap
12-19-2007, 07:24 PM
I really am no longer interested in the debate ... I just want to see it, to be quite honest.

I do understand the physical restrictions of a full-frame SSS.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r289/donschap/camera%20stuff/image_circle.jpg

If SONY has actually found a way to work this out, we are all in for a major shock, eh?

And, I would suppose you will finally make the Full-Frame migration to the better choice, Coldrain ... and leave your dog-eared Canon to the ashes of photographic history.

My God, that does sound a bit presumptuous, doesn't it? :eek:

Ah, what the heck ... SSS in Full-Frame can't happen, right? You're safe ... for the time being. :rolleyes:

BTW: What would YOU (of all people) be doing on Dyxum? Isn't that the "lost and forgotten land of old technology?" To be honest, I was playing Devil's Advocate when I put that open-thoughtline up to just actually see what would shake out. I used a bunch of coincidental issues to try and create a new idea. It would appear that there is no one "in the know" on the board ... or they are just keeping quiet. I have to admit, it was a pretty fantastic (extreme ... not great) brain-storm when I look back on it. Too bad I couldn't bait a decent response. If it really does exist (SSS on FF), this very well could be one of the best kept secrets of the early 21st-Century ... and an incredible technological embarrasment to the other major players. I know if I were the CEO and making these cameras ... me and the ol' Engineering Department would be having some serious discussions about who's keeping their job, this year (2007, not 2008). LOL ;)

GO SONY ... make our day!

Rooz
12-19-2007, 08:29 PM
If it really does exist (SSS on FF), this very well could be one of the best kept secrets of the early 21st-Century ... and an incredible technological embarrasment to the other major players. I know if I were the CEO and making these cameras ... me and the ol' Engineering Department would be having some serious discussions about who's keeping their job, this year (2007, not 2008). LOL ;)

GO SONY ... make our day!

why would it cause such embarressment ? :confused: C&N have chosen to remain to with in-lens IS. judging by the amount of IS lens' hitting the market place lately in consumer and pro grade, (by 3rd parties aswell), the signs are that they are going to stay with in-lens solutions for the forseeable future.

if anything, sony are the ones that should be embarressed if they CAN'T do it. they are the ones that have elected to go with in-body IS. now they have to prove thats a viable alternative in a FF camera aswell as an aps-c. if they can;t make it viable then they have 4 choices...forget FF and go with a max 1.3 sensor, not such a bad proposition in the short term...but will lose alot of pro prestige and what about long term ? have a pro camera without SSS and make SSS lens', (what a mess !), don;t bother about SSS for pros, (not a good idea !), or forget SSS and move to in-lens SSS...ah there you go...back where we started. :)

DonSchap
12-19-2007, 08:51 PM
Yes ... I do see your point ... but, just for grins ... WHAT IF they have successfully come up with a real 100% FF-SSS solution (no crop)? I still believe C&N will have a lot of 'splaining to do with their share-holders when the up and coming "PRO-market" just ups and leaves the expensive IS-equipped glass behind.

Do we have a killer-rig on the horizon? If so, man, where's that SONY stock going to go, next? I know I'll be pretty hot for one of these FF-SSS beauties ... and I'm just doing this for fun. :D

SONYNUT
12-19-2007, 09:30 PM
PIXEL SIZE WOULD STILL BE THE SAME IF THEY GO WITH THEIR 18 mp plan...

swpars
12-19-2007, 09:38 PM
Yes ... I do see your point ... but, just for grins ... WHAT IF they have successfully come up with a real 100% FF-SSS solution (no crop)? I still believe C&N will have a lot of 'splaining to do with their share-holders when the up and coming "PRO-market" just ups and leaves the expensive IS-equipped glass behind.



So, Don - how would Sony engineer a 100% full-frame camera (no sensor cropping) with sensor shift image stabilization? How would that be done?

DonSchap
12-19-2007, 10:16 PM
Since you've asked, Sam ... I suppose "high-speed, outer-edge sensor sampling" might be a possibility, where the sensor is sampled several times during the shot and then recompiled to reconstruct the entire sensor image, by quickly aligning and matching the center pixels up ... then lopping off (truncating) the ones that do not fit on the full-sized sensor. It would be akin to "layering" the image and then flattening it, much like we already do (at a much slower rate) with Photoshop Tools. It would be a quite novel approach, in my estimation ... relying less on the physical movement of the sensor and more on the recompiling of the outer image as it is recorded. A pseudo-image becoming a solid-image. You just need one whopper of a storage buffer. Video processor speeds are well within this minor video input-output operation.

Sounds cool, doesn't it? More high-tech than the current barbaric inertia-inspired anti-shaker.

But, hey ... I'm just an old prototype-engineering tech from IIT ... what the heck do I know? SONY never asked me how to do it.

coldrain
12-20-2007, 05:10 AM
The problem will be that the edges/corners may be without (enough) light during part of the exposure time. So, those parts of the photo will be severely under-exposed.

You can try to detect that, and then do what one might try to do with severely underexposed images. Lightening gradually towards that corner, adjusting the contrast, and trying to bring the saturation upto spec.

That would mean the JPEG writing times go down a lot, and the RAW either would not be RAW (like with Nikon now too, they apply processing before the NEF is written), or one would need to use the Sony supplied RAW conversion software that would "fix" the corners.
This will mean that the fixed edges never will get the quality that one would have without SSS. More noise, less contrast and saturation.

Or a faster way would be to just "guess" the edges, filling in with what was there before the darkening/vignetting. Like Photoshop can do when you straighten a photo.

My guess remains that if Sony will put a full frame sensor in the "A900", in full frame mode SSS would just not be available. It should be aimed at Minolta professionals (the few remaining ones that make do with the 7D or still shoot film), and then IQ into the edges simply does matter.

DonSchap
12-20-2007, 08:26 AM
Wow ... not too much feedback on this issue, huh? LOL

It's a whole new world out there ... with digital. ;)

Rooz
12-21-2007, 05:59 PM
i refuse to believe that they can never make in body IS even on FF. maybe not this time around, but surely, somehwere, technology will be good enuf and some smart dude will come up with a way.

coldrain
12-22-2007, 04:27 AM
i refuse to believe that they can never make in body IS even on FF. maybe not this time around, but surely, somehwere, technology will be good enuf and some smart dude will come up with a way.
One does not have to be smart for that at ALL.
Just use a wider lens mount that is not designed for 135 film. Simple.

DonSchap
01-30-2008, 10:28 PM
Will the α900 finally arrive?

Man, this is rough. I found this early "dream ad", from after PMA 2007 ... and now SONY has made the Full Frame even better ... with a 24.82 MP sensor. Good lord, it's a far cry from the α700's 12MP, huh?


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I guess we shall see what we shall see. A lot of work has gone into this and if SSS (Super SteadyShot™) ever had a "golden shot" at Canikon's groin ... this has to be it!

Oh, there are some that say it's a "flash in the pan" ... but, then again ... think of the thousands of dollars about to be saved with not having to worry about mounting IS-equipped lenses on your Full Framed DSLR. Wow ... can you say ... "price-drop?" Oh, go ahead ... I know you can ... :D Hey, try this phrase ... "improved marketshare" ... go ahead, say it three times, real fast! :eek: Just to get it over with ... nuk, nuk, nuk.

And just to make matters slightly worse yet ... what if the thing comes in under $3500? OMG ... can you imagine that sucking sound with all the heavy-duty shutter-bugs as they get ready to ... well, expose their collective surprise?

Well, until it happens, we're safe, right? Right?

If it does, let's see it through ... together, all of you about-to-be SONY converts. :p

As one of the Democrat candidates is so fond of saying, "Change ... we can believe in"

DonSchap
01-31-2008, 02:18 PM
Well, parts of the "Flagship" camera were at the show ... :o

Very important parts ... the heart ... the eyes ... some of the nervous system:

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Thanks to Imaging Resource for these PMA 08 images

So ... again, we wait. Hopefully, not too long, this time.

Here's the direct link to the SONY Flagship (http://news.sel.sony.com/images/large/consumer/digital_imaging/Flagship_model_prototype_at_PMA2008_lg.JPG) as it stands, today (Note the clever location of the pc-sync port and the top LCD window).

DonSchap
02-01-2008, 11:36 AM
"Flagship" progress was only offered by word of mouth and a few displays (no working bodies) ... and the feeling is that it will actually be realeased to the public by Photokina, in Cologne, Germany. Personally, Id like to do some proto-type testing, here in Chicago.

Oh well, I just wanted to get that out there. LOL :rolleyes:

Here's the PMA 08 Media CONFERENCE (http://www.imaging-resource.com/EVENTS/PMAS08/PMAS08VIDEO.HTML#vid09) concerning the release. Don't pass out when he get's to some of the lens pricing. Obviously, they must be considering some other market than the USA. LOL :rolleyes: Unlesss something really changes in CameraLand , I suspect they may never get that marketshare from Canikon trying to boost lenses at those prices. It's almost weird. :eek:

70-200mm f/2.8 G SSM - $2000
24-70mm f/2.8 G SSM - $1700
70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 G SSM - $800

just to start off ... not out of my wallet, pal! :mad: I already popped for a $2000 "sealed" SONY lens and wound up having to send it back. Two-months of tied-up funds. Purchased in October, last year, I'm still clearing the paperwork from my MasterCard. I might be intrigued at 75% of those prices, but no way at full boat. There are just too many great third-party lens that can offer a decent shot. I offer the TAMRON SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di LD, which is a classic and tack sharp. Cost: $349

I suppose if I were able to lop it off as a business expense, there might be something to these inflated costs ... but as a hobbiest ... hah!

TAMRON announced a forthcoming SP AF 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5 Di-II LD (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0802/08020102tamron1024.asp) (<= click here) ... which is direct competition for the Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM. Makes sense, as the TAMRON SP AF 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 Di-II LD just is not a hit with any crowd.

Rooz
02-01-2008, 02:21 PM
so its confirmed that it has SSS on FF sensor. so much for this being impossible. lol

i dont think in body IS is a "groin kick". it hasn;t been for consumers so why would it be for pro's ? the price ? thats gonna be more intertesting. but again, not sure pros are gonna really be attracted to that sort of saving on a body. the groin kick will come by lens range and lens price.

DonSchap
02-01-2008, 02:40 PM
It appears that SONY has some group in mind ... and it's definitely not your "normal" guy, that's for sure. Their pricing on their "pro"-line lensing is at least 30% higher than Canon's "L" glass, which defies explanation. I suppose you can go third party and deal from there, but if you go for the SONY badge on your lens, be prepared to pay out the wahzoo!

I guess SONY is trying to separate the men ... from men with large wallets. Well, not in this decade, I'm afraid. The big money is long gone. :p NAFTA saw to that, in the previous Clinton Administration and will finish it up, completely, if Clinton II gets her way.

We're living with the government funding our next lens purchase with a $600 rebate. Weird how that works, huh?

VTEC_EATER
02-01-2008, 03:18 PM
I wonder if the new Sony full frame lenses produce a larger image circle than a Nikkor/Canon/Minolta/Pentax etc... do. If they do, it would explain how Sony gets in body IS with its full frame sensor.

DonSchap
02-01-2008, 04:02 PM
Well, the way I figure it ... you have about 8-months to unload that Nikon system you got yourself into ... and get onboard with SONY. Just imagine all the novel and neat things you will be doing that you simply cannot, with the limitations you are currently under.

Better get started, huh? I reallly tried to warn you ... save you major bucks ... but, the ear muffs were just on a little too tight, I suppose.

Anyway, see ya in the funny papers ... :rolleyes:

Rooz
02-01-2008, 05:44 PM
Just imagine all the novel and neat things you will be doing that you simply cannot, with the limitations you are currently under.

such as ? lol

SONYNUT
02-03-2008, 01:27 PM
it would have to be 18mp or more just to break even with the a700...

DonSchap
02-05-2008, 09:03 PM
Contrasting the prototype idea from PMA 2007 with the prototype shown at PMA 2008

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Thanks for Dyxum Forum for this image

Can't you just imagine this "bad boy" in your hand?

"Pose, baby ... now we're shooting with the good stuff."