anyone up for an off topic rant about free work????

[adam75south]

so when i first started this whole picture taking thing i couldn't talk people into letting me take pictures. now everyone and their dog(literally) wants me to take pictures of them(for free of course). at first it was kinda nice and i didn't mind. then hours and hours of free work later it starts to take its toll.

so i just got a call from a lady i work with...we'll get back to this in a bit.

you see i work at a brain injury rehabilitation place. it's set up like a ranch. we even have animals. but the patients live here. it's like an assisted living home, but with mental/physical therapy on site.

and tomorrow the patients at one of the houses is having a christmas parade. back to the call from the lady. i answer my phone and say "this is adam" like i always do. then she asks me if i'll take pictures of the parade. now what the hell am i gonna say? no? seriously, let's say i say no and the president of the company finds out i said no. she even tells me that she's got a roll of 35mm film i can use...which annoys me even more.

so, as you can imagine, i said yes. i didn't want to, but i did.

now i can already see the calls i'm gonna get every day until i put my free pictures on a cd and bring them to her.

i dunno, maybe i'm blowing this all out of proportion here....what do you guys think?

[adam75south]

and don't EVEN get me started on people asking me to take pictures of their pets.

[JTL]

Adam, the best advice when asked is to dispassionately say in your best business-like voice: "My rates are xxxx. Let me check my availability for that date and time". After the first time you say it...you will feel great. The first time someone says "O.K." you'll feel even better. ;)

Make no exceptions and no one can legitimately have an issue with it.

[danidabi]

Um is the parade going to be during work hours? Your rate at work might be different then what you charge for your photography, but could you take the time off from your work at the ranch and use the photography time as hours at work? (does that make sense)

I had to do something like this for school. I got asked to take photos for a walk that students organized to raise awareness about mental illness. I agreed but took the hours and applied them to the hours I had to complete for this semester.

and don't EVEN get me started on people asking me to take pictures of their pets.

LOFLAO:D

[VTEC_EATER]

Is there anything these people can do for you? Are they good at knitting? Have them make you a sweater.

[DonSchap]

Hey ... my employer tried to tap me for doing the "Holiday Party" shots ... gratis. Taking an image or two of every participant.

Uh ... no. Heck, I'd baulk for $400 + plus digital printing materials (ink & paper). Well, maybe not ... but, that's just way too much work and rather unfair to push onto an employee. This is no "Mom & Pop" store, it's a rather large business ... so hire a business to do work.

Heck, the company wouldn't even pop for a dime to reimburse my eductational pursuit to learn how to do this ... and I'm going to throw away the pleasure of the annual holiday party, on top of that ... working the shutter and using MY own gear from my pocket? I don't need that much practice. So, I don't think so. :eek:

"Keep your film," I say. :mad:

They wound up using some other departmental person to shoot the candids ... and provided no individual/couple shots (first, but not the last time that's happened).

Gasoline has no problem doubling in price ... and now, every swingin' **** wants a freebie. Sorry ... reality check. Who else has to pay for their gas, here? Raise your hand! You see? NOTHING'S FREE! :p

[adam75south]

Um is the parade going to be during work hours? Your rate at work might be different then what you charge for your photography, but could you take the time off from your work at the ranch and use the photography time as hours at work? (does that make sense)

I had to do something like this for school. I got asked to take photos for a walk that students organized to raise awareness about mental illness. I agreed but took the hours and applied them to the hours I had to complete for this semester.



LOFLAO:D
yea it's during my regular work hours. it's got it's ups and downs. there's no way i'd do it after hours. they actually asked me to shoot something on the weekend before and i made up a reason why i couldn't.

my problem is she baited me. she said "are you going to be here tomorrow?" from now on if i get that question i'm saying no.

Is there anything these people can do for you? Are they good at knitting? Have them make you a sweater.
lmao i had a pretty funny response to that but i'm gonna have to keep it. it would sound WAY too insensitive to their situations. i really do care for these people..and i'm just the IT support guy.

[adam75south]

... and I'm going to throw away the pleasure of the annual holiday party, on top of that ... working the shutter and using MY own gear from my pocket? I don't need that much practice. So, I don't think so. :eek:

there's no way i'd miss my christmas party at work to shoot it. it's WAY too fun. i mean that. it's the ONE time i get to actually hang out with the people i work with...outside of work.

[DonSchap]

Adam ... didn't you say your camera was "at the cleaners?" The "back-up" one, too?

You know, broken and UNAVAILABLE?

"Oh! What good are you?" :p

[adam75south]

Adam ... didn't you say your camera was "at the cleaners?" The "back-up" one, too?

You know, broken and UNAVAILABLE?

"Oh! What good are you?" :p
dammit why didn't i think of that. i usually use that one on model girls.

[Rhys]

Simple answer - I'm sorry - I'd rather just enjoy the party.

It is a warning against freebies and low cost solutions also.

[jayfixit]

When people ask you to take "free" pictures do it...but make sure they're horrible. Blurred, overexposed...people not smiling...1/2 of someone cut off. Of course, talk them up a bunch once everyone sees them like they're your best work.

It's time you forgot to take your lens cap off. :D

[Nickcanada]

I could go on for pages listing the stuff I do for free. :rolleyes:


I do it to myself.

Time to go edit the pics from my uncle's wedding from last weekend. ;):rolleyes::(


I know the real reason she is smiling! hahahahaha.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/nickandaline/IMG_0194.jpg


P.S. I got the "I'll pay for the film" line too. oh god, like if I shot film there would be a question about you paying for the film!

On top of that he asked if I had a video camera. :rolleyes: Video, how uncivilized! :D jk Pete, you rock.

[nqjudo]

Adam - I definitely feel for your predicament because I've been in similar situations myself in the past. Out of my experience I have learned a valuable lesson. I've said it here before and I'll say it again. When you charge a fee for your talent and your resources you empower yourself. When you allow someone to use your talent and your resources for free, you empower them.

You are a talented guy and like everyone you have ways and means to improve this world for yourself and others. Some may achieve that by taking free pictures of pets and parades and what not but that is obviously not for you so you have nothing to gain by involving yourself in those endeavors. Forget it and spend that time doing what you are passionate about. Don't be worried about leaving people hanging in the mean time. There's always someone around with a camera.

[cpaussie]

I've been asked to take photos and video when I was in Italy, and here in Melbourne. I even put in my own film and tape. I was filming and taking photos of every one having dinner or lunch. When I finished, I was asked to give half of my lunch to a boy who happened to visit, and at the dinner party when I finally sat down, they ran out of all the seafood!

[r6isnum1]

Adam ... didn't you say your camera was "at the cleaners?" The "back-up" one, too?

You know, broken and UNAVAILABLE?

"Oh! What good are you?" :p

ha thats a good one... that probably would have been your best bet... maybe "i rented my equipment out to a friend" or something like that...

i get the same thing, a lot from the same people we know... always with the messages or text, hey can you come over and take some pictures of me and my family at our cook out... my kids party... me and my girl friends..

[Nickcanada]

Adam - I definitely feel for your predicament because I've been in similar situations myself in the past. Out of my experience I have learned a valuable lesson. I've said it here before and I'll say it again. When you charge a fee for your talent and your resources you empower yourself. When you allow someone to use your talent and your resources for free, you empower them.

You are a talented guy and like everyone you have ways and means to improve this world for yourself and others. Some may achieve that by taking free pictures of pets and parades and what not but that is obviously not for you so you have nothing to gain by involving yourself in those endeavors. Forget it and spend that time doing what you are passionate about. Don't be worried about leaving people hanging in the mean time. There's always someone around with a camera.


Excellent points!

Also, I know when I don't feel like shooting an event it shows in my results.

[herc182]

Thats annoying but something you cant really back out of this time.

take some good shots and if they want them on CD charge them for it, or if they want prints charge them a little extra.
Say it costs $100 to print some photos charge them $150. You will get your money some where.
Then in the future if they ask you again (which they probably will) you say "the first one was free, but I generally charge for my services, like I am sure you do on weekends and nights :p" (maybe omit that last part:))

[DonSchap]

I'm not sure that implying someone is charging for their "private" activities beyond the scope of the conversation is a wise move. Although the "second oldest profession" does raise an eyebrow ... when you consider who some of the proprietiors are. LOL :) :eek: :p

Taking images, on the job, is one thing ... you are getting paid for your time, no matter what you do. Your personal gear is, obviously, optional. Therefore, it must be "rented" and expendable supplies and materials should be cost-accounted. So ... nick them in the rental!

Even we rent lenses, right?

31463


Figure a loose schedule-rate based on "gear-cost"/hr. Hand it to them and say, here's the going "gear-rental rate." That's ultimately fair and more business-like. Then, a business-decision can be made, rather than this unfair imposition on an employee by management.

So, tell me: What happens ... if your gear is dAmAgEd during the shoot? Who pays? Yeah -> YOU, pal!


(Hey, wait just a minute ... sniff - sniff ... do I smell a possible lawsuit? Unfair business practices? Maybe this angle needs a little further investigation? Do you know any EEOC/HR lawyers? One phone call could change EVERYTHING.)

[herc182]

Figure a loose schedule-rate based on "gear-cost"/hr. Hand it to them and say, here's the going "gear-rental rate." That's ultimately fair and more business-like. Then, a business-decision can be made, rather than this unfair imposition on an employee by management. (Hey, wait just a minute ... sniff - sniff ... do I smell a possible lawsuit? Unfair business practices? Maybe this angle needs a little further investigation? Do you know any EEOC/HR lawyers? One phone call could change EVERYTHING.)

Agree with the rental charge. that is definately a good idea.
However, calling lawyers? Lawsuit. She has ultimately asked him if he can take photos. She has not held a gun to his head and said "takes shots or i will"! Blimey, i cant imagine Adam would want to take that route. The more I read that sentence the more ridiculous i think it is (if it was serious, in which case if it wasnt I will laugh :D)

[24Peter]

Adam - I feel your pain. Wanting to please others by not saying "no" when I didn't want to do something has been one of my biggest downfalls in life. I used to preach to my writer/actor clients, "if you don't value yourself no one else will." Then one day I realized I had to practice what I preach. Now I try not to do anything for anyone I don't want to do. Yes I have fewer "friends" and "clients", but it cuts down on a lot of resentment towards those peopel/situations later.

Since your concern is the CEO, why not contact him/her directly with a business proposal - I like the gear-rental arrangement, or simply explain you use your photography to supplement your income. At that point if they're not willing to pay, at least they'll stop asking. But it sounds like by not saying "no" now, you're setting yourself up for continued misery on this one.

[JMWallace]

Here is a thought. Since it is during work hours, no big deal. I say use a point & shoot then take the card from the camera and go straight to that persons desktop and unload the images right there.

No muss, no fuss.

If they REALLY want the Pro DSLR guy, I say tell them "sure". Especially since it's during work time. BUT, also let them know that it will cost "X" dollars get the edited files or they can choose to add the time to your timesheet or pay you overtime.

US Labor laws require that you be compensated for your time when you are doing work for your employer.

[DonSchap]

Agree with the rental charge. that is definately a good idea.
However, calling lawyers? Lawsuit. She has ultimately asked him if he can take photos. She has not held a gun to his head and said "takes shots or i will"! Blimey, i cant imagine Adam would want to take that route. The more I read that sentence the more ridiculous i think it is (if it was serious, in which case if it wasnt I will laugh :D)

Well ... to be honest, I began to think about the employee obligation / employer expectation part of it ... and then something just rang-wrong. When that happens, it's time to get counsel. There is no harm in asking what the law has to say about such requests.

For instance: What if I were working for you ... and you found out that I had a boat. A nice, big float boat ... you wanted to entertain the work crew, for lunch, on it and have me pilot it around the lake. You have no intention of paying for the fuel used or the use of my craft, but just pay my normal salary during the outing. Although this is a much bigger request, it fits right into the same category. As such, I do believe this is wrong, a mis-use of your position as my employer ... and well beyond the expectation of my position in the company as an "IT-member." Even you requesting that I fix your personal "home computer" (not a business-supplied one) is a possible violation of our employment agreement, because of the nature of our working relationship. Just because you are too cheap to pay for service ... does not mean this behavior is ethical or even legal.

Personally, I know I would feel exceptionally pressured by this request and would probably dodge you (the boss) for fear of further requests, from then on. That's considered a "hostile work-ernvironment" and not someplace I'd want to be, day-after-day. I also know I'd probably be looking for a new job, real soon.

Just a thought. :rolleyes:

Okay, for my next "word problem ..."

[TheWengler]

Here is a thought. Since it is during work hours, no big deal. I say use a point & shoot then take the card from the camera and go straight to that persons desktop and unload the images right there.

No muss, no fuss.

If they REALLY want the Pro DSLR guy, I say tell them "sure". Especially since it's during work time. BUT, also let them know that it will cost "X" dollars get the edited files or they can choose to add the time to your timesheet or pay you overtime.

US Labor laws require that you be compensated for your time when you are doing work for your employer.

I like this idea the best.

[DonSchap]

But it sounds like by not saying "no" now, you're setting yourself up for continued misery on this one.

All in all ... this really needs to be treated as an entirely different business venture and not just some company using you because it's your hobby (or 'downtime' personal interest). "Friends" can tap you for this kind of thing ... but businesses should not. It's a lot like "cash under the table" ... and last time I saw that kind of thing ... it was an illegal, non-taxable gain then, too.

In a day and age of continual ethics violations and substandard law enforcement ... this is just another erosion of the rules and policies we all should be able to rely upon, in the bigger picture. Look, I'm not trying to be a killjoy, here ... but, you all have to admit, this even feels wrong. :cool:

I mean, speaking of photography: What if you "had pictures" on someone in the company ... to strong arm your advancement. Is that wrong? Is it even relevent? :rolleyes:

[JMWallace]

Is it even relevent? :rolleyes:

Nope. Not relevent

[DonSchap]

Thought not. ;)

[JMWallace]

Thought not. ;)

hahaha -LOL-:D

[michaelb]

Well ... to be honest, I began to think about the employee obligation / employer expectation part of it ... and then something just rang-wrong. When that happens, it's time to get counsel. There is no harm in asking what the law has to say about such requests.....

Whoaaaaa nellie! Slow down a bit. Your going to get me up on my stump here. This is one of the great problems in America. Talk to a Lawyer??!! There are too many damn trial/personal injury lawyers in this country to begin with and this type of attitude is certainly part of the reason.

Before I ever reached this step I would simply sit down and openly address my feelings about the situation. 95% of employers would be completely understanding. For the 5% that don't, that's where an attorney should be consulted.

[michaelb]

Just another why its good to be a landscape/nature photographer. ;)

"Sorry, I only photograph landscapes, I know nothing of people photography". I have actually responded to requests just like that. :cool:

I pity all of you "people" photographers! (Well, except for Peter and his models :D)

[Vich]

Main problem I have with doing free shooting is that it's under-appreciated and under-valued, by them and by me.

Since I'm not paid, I don't take it that seriously. They get the photos but I don't put as much into them, aren't as diligent in delivery, and each time I don't get properly acknowledged it leaves a bad taste for doing it again (or next time I put even less effort into it).

If it were during work however and my time was being paid, I'd treat it as any other work task - with utmost professionalism and diligence. Pretty much give it my all and not think twice about it.

If they ever asked for a freebie however; I'd point out that I do normally get paid for my work and if I'm not on the company payroll for the event, I'd like my normal rate of xxxx.

Friends are a different story; last acquaintance who wanted a family portrait shoot (and insisted on paying) and I quoted just $150 - well, I've not heard back from them (3 months). I've decided I've got 2 rates. Full or free, and friends will always get free.

[cwphoto]

Adam: do the shoot and do it the best you can. I still do freebies from time to time; sometimes they are a pain in the ass, but sometimes it feels good just to do someone a favour - you never know who's watching and you may get a referral out of it (or a returned favour).

I did a portrait shoot (actually two sessions over two consecutive days) for my neighbours across the road - normal price is $385 a pop. She wants to pay me but I insisted I just want a box of beer out of it (AUD50 retail - I want Stella Artois!) and she owes me one. Felt good too.

Besides, it sounds like it's for a worthy cause and it's Christmas for chrissakes! :D

[JMWallace]

I like this idea even better than mine.

Cheers CW!:)

[adam75south]

Adam: do the shoot and do it the best you can. I still do freebies from time to time; sometimes they are a pain in the ass, but sometimes it feels good just to do someone a favour - you never know who's watching and you may get a referral out of it (or a returned favour).

I did a portrait shoot (actually two sessions over two consecutive days) for my neighbours across the road - normal price is $385 a pop. She wants to pay me but I insisted I just want a box of beer out of it (AUD50 retail - I want Stella Artois!) and she owes me one. Felt good too.

Besides, it sounds like it's for a worthy cause and it's Christmas for chrissakes! :D
thanks. that's exactly how i look at everything too. it's also a way to make myself feel better about doing it.

i did the shoot. it was ok. i haven't even looked at the pictures yet.

i guess what bothers me is when people expect it.

[adam75south]

ha thats a good one... that probably would have been your best bet... maybe "i rented my equipment out to a friend" or something like that...

i get the same thing, a lot from the same people we know... always with the messages or text, hey can you come over and take some pictures of me and my family at our cook out... my kids party... me and my girl friends..

and i bet i know EXACTLY who you're talking about too. i used the "i moved to sherman" excuse...and told them to ask ivan haha.

[cwphoto]

i guess what bothers me is when people expect it.

Well yeah I agree with that.

[Vich]

thanks. that's exactly how i look at everything too. it's also a way to make myself feel better about doing it.

i did the shoot. it was ok. i haven't even looked at the pictures yet.

i guess what bothers me is when people expect it.

Good choice.

On reconsideration; I would most likely reconsider if the time actually came. Doing an occasional freebie (of whatever) for your employer establishes an air of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". Much better than "I want every inch of my effort paid for". The rewards come around, even if no more than helping perpetuate an air of fellowship. So; employers would fall in the "friends and acquaintances" column.

Now if they want you to do it regularly and miss out on enjoying a Christmas party ...

[DonSchap]

Man, the next thing you know, you'll have them swapping Christmas Cards, camping out in the woods and dating the daughter. LOL

If you let an employer into your personal life ... things can get mighty dicey, real quick. Your job should have a definite paradigm to it that should not be confused. It's work ... not a hobby. Crossing this line can be a fatal mistake. Ask the bozos who ran ENRON. That's about as ugly as a "friendly job" gets. Everyone got screwed in that deal.

Personally ... uncomplicated is usually a safer route ... for everyone. There are less misunderstandings and it is not clouded by so-called "friendliness."

[JTL]

Doing an occasional freebie (of whatever) for your employer establishes an air of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". Much better than "I want every inch of my effort paid for".Although, don't forget, it is an asymmetrical relationship...so while there may be the "illusion" of quid pro quo, in most situations, the payer has the power over the payee. Doing "favors" just increases that power.

But, there are exceptions to the payer/payee power dynamic. Go WGA! :D

[Vich]

Although, don't forget, it is an asymmetrical relationship...so while there may be the "illusion" of quid pro quo, in most situations, the payer has the power over the payee. Doing "favors" just increases that power.

But, there are exceptions to the payer/payee power dynamic. Go WGA! :D
Wow; this could turn into a serious OT (clearing throat) discussion. There's a lot of camps on best employee practices.

I see your point though; don't give anything away with expectation of return or most likely you'll suffer disappointment.

[r6isnum1]

and i bet i know EXACTLY who you're talking about too. i used the "i moved to sherman" excuse...and told them to ask ivan haha.

hahaha... thanks for the referral...