Trying to learn about flash lighting [Archive] - Digital Camera Resource Page Forums

shoey

11-26-2007, 06:40 AM

Right then,

Ever since i wanted to get in to photography, i've always wanted to stick with available light, as i've never really liked the look of flash photography, or more specific, "MY" flash photography.

Anyhoooo, as it's nearly always dark here at this time of year, thought i'd have a play with an old hand-me-down 420ex and see if i can work out what the hell you're supposed to do.

I'm not a great learner by reading so just thought i'd learn by doing and just see what happened. Probably doing it all wrong but hey:D

These were all taken in manual with 1/50s f/2.8 iso 400.

The first is bounced off the ceiling and the other 2 are shot to the left of frame.

Let me know what you think i can do to improve. :confused:

http://www.philshoebottom.co.uk/Photos/DCR/Milo/IMG_6722.jpg

http://www.philshoebottom.co.uk/Photos/DCR/Milo/IMG_6724.jpg

http://www.philshoebottom.co.uk/Photos/DCR/Milo/IMG_6728.jpg

Cheers, Shoey.

fractalgfx

11-26-2007, 07:34 AM

I have a 430ex, and I have to say that learning to use it is the biggest challenge I've faced since getting a DSLR. So far, I have used it mostly in small white rooms where I bounce the flash of the wall behind me. I'm not sure why, but I tend to get better results shooting in full manual.

With a direct flash, my results range from bad to awful.

I'm thinking about getting an instructional DVD for canon speedlights.

nqjudo

11-26-2007, 07:43 AM

Those shots look pretty good to me. The first ceiling bounce caused a little darkening on the face because of the ears but the next two are a definite improvement. This is just my opinion and I think much about lighting is subjective. Trial and error isn't a bad way to learn flash. Nice work so far... keep it up.

herc182

11-26-2007, 08:09 AM

i am sorry but i cant believe no one has mentioned how cute that rabbit is :D

aparmley

11-26-2007, 08:46 AM

Hey shoey - this is how it all starts. . . eventually you stumble upon this site and wish you had earlier:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3792/2480/1600/200x75blk.jpg (http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/02/welcome-to-strobist.html)

Spookonthe8ball

11-26-2007, 07:01 PM

Hey Shoey, Looks like you are on the right track for flash pictures. I use manual mode even with my EX430. I hate the results using ttl and such. I also tend to use flash diffusers that cut down on the light so I prefer to adjust the flash to match. On close subjects diffused lighting seems to work best for me. It really cuts down on the hot areas that infuriate most photographers. Just experiment and go with what looks best with your set up.
Nice photo's by the way, Spook

AdamW

11-26-2007, 07:14 PM

Yep, that's a cute bunny alright. And a good test subject, too.

#3 looks very well exposed to me. The white chest hair isn't totally blown out, and the only really dark shadows are at the very base of the ears (which you could only light head-on.) Take a look at the histogram:

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Rhys

11-26-2007, 08:03 PM

Try this: Blue Crane Digital DVD: Understanding the Canon Speedlite 580EX/430EX by Tim Mantoani (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/414626-REG/Blue_Crane_Digital_BC201_DVD_Understanding_the_Can on.html)

nqjudo

11-26-2007, 09:15 PM

i am sorry but i cant believe no one has mentioned how cute that rabbit is :D

Sure... rabbits look cute till they turn out to be strange rabbit beasts :D

AdamW

11-26-2007, 10:34 PM

Sure... rabbits look cute till they turn out to be strange rabbit beasts :D

Yeah, they're all cute and soft...until they ATTACK!

31046

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mumbles420

11-26-2007, 11:06 PM

Yeah, they're all cute and soft...until they ATTACK!

HAHAHA, this is a funny ass movie!

AdamW

11-26-2007, 11:20 PM

Oh yes, it's all fun and bunny games, until the thread gets hijacked.

Woman: Well how'd you become king then?  

Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king!  

Dennis: (interrupting) Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcicial aquatic ceremony!  

Arthur: Be quiet!  

Dennis: Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!  

Arthur: SHUT UP!  

Dennis: Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bink lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!  

Arthur: SHUT UP! WILL YOU SHUT UP! [Grabs Dennis]  

Dennis: Ah! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!  

Arthur: SHUT UP!  

Dennis: Oh, come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!  

Arthur: (muttering) Bloody peasant!  

Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressin' me? You saw it, didn't you?
(END OF SCENE)

nqjudo

11-27-2007, 06:58 AM

Adam - That's hilarious! LOL!

Rhys

11-27-2007, 08:12 AM

<sound of sirens getting closer then brakes squealing>
Two men in white coats arrive on the scene and cart both Dennis and Arthur back to Bull Street

DonSchap

11-27-2007, 09:17 AM

It is good to see that your 420EX is operating properly. It's a bit easier to use than the next upgrade.

Were you shooting in M or TTL-mode with the unit?

The 430EX, while far more flexible, also needs to be more carefully "tuned" to the camera body it is attached to. It can be a very frustrating experience until you figure out how to speak "electronic menu" with it.

In E-TTL Mode, the "Exposure Compensation" and "Flash Compensation" become both enemy and friend, as you struggle to get the "lighting" correct. Usually, in the beginning, all your shots look dark as heck. You aren't certain the flash is even working. Personally, I do not like the way the Canon user manual attempts to explain it. A real test of your patience.

Getting the suggested training by Tim Mantoani has to be better than struggling through the Canon manual.

Good luck.

fractalgfx

11-27-2007, 09:40 AM

In E-TTL Mode, the "Exposure Compensation" and "Flash Compensation" become both enemy and friend, as you struggle to get the "lighting" correct. Usually, in the beginning, all your shots look dark as heck. You aren't certain the flash is even working.

That is a half perfect description of my first experience with the 430ex. Half my pictures were dark as heck, the other half made my subjects appear radioactive.

drama

11-27-2007, 09:43 AM

I am also in the process of learning flash photography :)
I tried the 430 EX in ETTL & got inconsistent results, then I got a chance to play with a Vivitar 285 worked completely in manual & got better results

Now traded in my 430 for a 580 EX, am really enjoying working in the manual mode with more bounce options

Right now I cant see any big advantage to ETTL, M seems easier to tweak & gives more consistent results

Is it worth getting a 580 EXII for 150$ more ?

Rhys

11-27-2007, 09:52 AM

drama

11-27-2007, 10:01 AM

Rhys

11-27-2007, 10:28 AM

But will the sunpak charge up so quickly, allow me so much flexibility in bouncing, have such build quality, have such a easy to use interface
I think not

I do all my shooting in manual mode too, so I prefer M
I am just starting out with flash photography, by the way

The sunpak will bounce. It's guide number is 120'/37. Power, by the way, is the least of your issues with a flash. With Sunpak's add-on battery pack costing another $80, I believe recycle times from full discharge are down to 1 second.

Build quality - it's not really much of an issue these days. Perceived build-quality is what you're really talking about. Does the Canon look and feel better - yes. Will the Sunpak take as much abuse as the Canon - probably not. Will the flash tube take as much abuse as the Canon body - probably not. Thus there's not really a whole load of point in blowing a large wad when you're really only experimenting.

I just went through the what flash system to buy process myself. I went all Canon with an STE-2, 420EX, 430EX and 2x580EX2s but then I have a portable studio. I could have bought Sunpak 383s and remotes but I chose instead to go for Canon because ETTL is pretty good (in controlled environments). Equally, for the same cash I could have bought some Alien Bees but I wanted lightweight and portable.

GaryS

11-27-2007, 11:26 AM

Personally, I like the ETTL functions. I've found it works well, but you have to keep in mind the way the flash interacts with your mode choice on the camera.

In Tv and Av modes, the flash assumes it is for fill-light only. The camera meters as if there is no flash, and then the flash fires at just enough power to help illuminate the main subject. The photo is ambient lit, with just a touch of flash.

In P mode, the camera assumes that the flash is the main light source, so it fires a much more powerful burst.

In M, you are, of course, on your own.

Every situation will require some decisions about how to get the best out of the flash and camera... Its a whole new world when you add the flash!

DonSchap

11-27-2007, 12:26 PM

Personally, in M-mode (on the camera body, not the flash), I have found the flash's E-TTL counters (fights) every manual setting adjustment you make. A little more shutter time to grab just a little more light ... the darn flash counters with automatically less light. A little wider aperture, maybe ... and again, the darn flash adjusts for it. Okay, how about ISO ... uh, same thing. The flash knows what it wants and it will have it, despite "your interference."

BOTH the camera and the flash must be in M-mode, together ... and if you do change modes or shut down the camera, the flash resets to E-TTL mode. It can be rather maddening, after a few minutes of wrestling a shot or two.

You paid $1300+ for this level of frustration? (Canon 580EX $450 x 2 Canon 420EX $150 Canon ST-E2 Speedlight Transmitter $250)

It got so nuts, I just went and bought a pair of 750W studio strobes ($1100) ... which I can easily and manually control the output of through a dial setting on the side of each one. Yeah. they take up some room ... but in five minutes, I have the shot I want. :D What's that worth to you? :confused:

Sometimes the "old ways" really are the best. This auto-adjusting is a fight you can't seem to win with 100% certainty. And as I recall, portrait-sitters aren't all that patient when you are calling "time-out" and running back and forth ... in adjustment mode.

But, I suppose it does beat flash powder!

SAY "CHEESE!"

3106831069

F-O-O-M-! . . . . . . . . . . . "Ha-cha-cha-cha!"

GaryS

11-27-2007, 12:35 PM

But Don, thats the PURPOSE of ETTL mode.....It is an automatic mode, so it does what is necessary to get the automatic shot.

M mode on the flash gives you manual control of the flash, which to me makes sense. Put the flash in manual, put the camera in manual, then you have control...

And in all the times I have used my XTi and 430EX, the flash has NEVER jumped from Manual to ETTL mode. Its always stayed on what I had set.

Your flash must have had a grudge against you or something! :)

DonSchap

11-27-2007, 12:59 PM

Yeah ... so begrudging was its behavior ... I sold the whole kit and caboodle. Well, I have one 580EX flash and the ST-E2 left, after all is said and done.

When I pop for an "AUTO" shot (Mode selector in AUTO-position and the flash display saying E-TTL) ... I should be able to believe that the camera will produce a nice, balanced and lighted shot ... based on its internal metering, the prefocus autofocus-assist beam and the "standard shot." As many have attested in this thread ... they usually come out dark. Why have a flash?

This also plays hell when you hand off the camera to 'Joe-novice' and say ... "just press the shutter release." BUZZZZZZZzzz ... not anymore. Now you need a degree in interactive electronics to figure out who's doing what and why! It is supposed to be simpler. My experience ... some days it is ... other days ... uh, nope. :o

shoey

11-27-2007, 03:14 PM

WOW!!!,

This thread has moved on:D

The photos i took were on full manual on the camera and then i don't know about the flash.

So will a 430ex or a 580ex behave differently to how i took these?

Do you only use Tv or Av for fill-in flash then? The rest of the time you have to use M or P? Is that right?

DonSchap

11-27-2007, 03:50 PM

You have to ask youself ... what mode is left? You have M, P, Av, Tv ... AUTO?

My recommendation ... set up the rig ... get your subject to sit still ... then try all the modes ... and see how your camera sets itself. It's not like it'll cost anything to look at the results. The film is free! :D :rolleyes: :eek:

drama

11-27-2007, 07:58 PM

Don Schap
Thanks for clarifying :)
I think I am going to stick to a M&M combo ;)

shoey

11-28-2007, 05:01 AM

DonSchap

11-28-2007, 10:07 AM

Yeah, it does have that switch in it, I did notice. Oh well ... there is that toggle switch, also, on the back of the flash.

Rooz

11-28-2007, 11:36 AM

Well the 420ex that i've got dosen't have many options on it. As soon as i turn the haed away from direct flash, then i think it goes to full power, in which case all i do is alter the Shutter speed or ISO in manual on the camera, to adjust the exposure.

and thats pretty much exactly what you should be doing. i'm sure someone has mentioned it before but strobist is the place to go if you are seriously interested in improving your flash photography. forget the canon/ nikon books, light is not brand specific.

adam75south

11-29-2007, 01:22 PM

i usually get the best results with the flash pointed straight ahead. the camera on manual mode and set for exposure as if there is no flash.....speedlight on -2 FEC to fill in shadows.

shoey

11-30-2007, 09:55 AM

Well, i drove 4hrs round trip yesterday to go and get my camera sorted once and for all. I've been at such a loss with having photos OOF or what i thought was unsharp or blurred, i was almost ready to pack it all in and go back to point and shoot. Anyway, i went into the service center and told them of my problems and he just happened to have the time there and then to have a look at my camera. Sure enough, it was front focussing.

I am now delighted to say that the camera and the 17-55 combo is now absolutely bang on focus. Which i'm so releived about. I can now be sure that whenever i press the shutter only user error should produce a bad result.

I'm so happy:D:D:D

Back on track.......

With the lack of any supermodels, or anyone in my house at the moment for that matter, i decided to point the camera at myself to check the focussing and sharpness.

Anyway, here is my first self-portrait, shot in M using bounce flash and a side table lamp.

I know its a crappy pose etc. and i'd much rather be taking pics of my fiancee, but she wasn't here:)

http://www.philshoebottom.co.uk/Photos/DCR/17-55/IMG_6771.jpg

aparmley

11-30-2007, 10:07 AM

The most important thing that I've learned about flash is this:

Shoot both the camera and flash on manual - Why? This way you control how the ambient light is exposed and you control how much flash is introduced to the scene. Once you decide to go this route and begin to understand the dance between the two, a whole new world is visible.

Best of luck.

BTW I'm glad to hear your trip went well. . . that 17-55 IS is a killer isn't it?