Pentax K10D ?

[Michael Bert]

I am a graduate of the point and shoot club, and now I am looking for a good D SLR.
I mostly photograph fishing trips, fish jumping, and wildlife.
From what I have read, I really like the Pentax K10D but I am worried about the photo quality.
I understand raw makes it better, but it sounds like a lot of work to get a nice photo. (what does it entail?)
Is there a easier way to get the very best out of this camera (using jpeg) ?

Or am I best to go to Canon with a better lens.? :confused:

Thanks

Mike

[coldrain]

What kind of lenses would you need... that is a more important question.
What attracts you in the K10D?
A Canon EOS 40D is the better camera, but lenses are more important. The Canon Lens line-up is a lot wider, so first figure out if Pentax actually can deliver the lenses you would be needing.

[Michael Bert]

A wide angle such as a 18 to 55 and a 70 to 300 would be my choice.
One for in boat shots and one for wildlife shots.

Thanks,

Mike

[coldrain]

Then I think a Pentax K10D may not be your optimum choice.
The Canon EF 70-300 f4-5.6 IS USM is a very good, sharp tele zoom lens of the 70-300 class, and Pentax does not have anything similar.

So, if the price is affordable to you, I would suggest a Canon 30D or 40D with that lens instead of the Pentax K10d. If your budget is too limited, then a Canon EOS 400D/XTi with that Canon 70-300 lens might be an option, or otherwise the Pentax K10D with the lesser, but cheaper, Sigma 70-300 f4-5.6 APO DG Macro.

Things that influence the outcome of a photo, in order of importance:
1. you, the photographer
2. the lenses
3. the camera body

[Rhys]

A wide angle such as a 18 to 55 and a 70 to 300 would be my choice.
One for in boat shots and one for wildlife shots.

Thanks,

Mike

If you're in a boat then the K10D is the ideal dSLR. It is fully weatherproofed - which you just don't get on digital SLRs from other manufacturers until you start spending many thousands more dollars. The Canon D1 series starts at about $5,000, the Nikon D2 series starts at around $4,000.The Olympus E3 is around $1,600 so the K10D is the least expensive of the weatherproofed cameras.

One feature the K10D has that the others don't is that it corrects for a twisting motion (which you get on boats) with its image stabiliser. The other systems correct (either in-body or in-lens) for vertical/horizontal movement. The Pentax corrects for twisting too. That is worth a lot!

In terms of in-boat wide-angles I suspect you'll need something like Tokina's 12-24 lens. For the rest, perhaps a 28-70 and a 70-300 or you could go for Sigma's 18-125 or an 18-200 then something longer. Personally, I'm not keen on very long lenses as they pick up atmospheric distortion rather badly.

[coldrain]

Atmospheric distortion?? :rolleyes::eek:

Anyway... the K10D is not waterproof, it is splash proof. And the K10D is probably as splash proof as the Canon EOS 40D and the Sony A700.
If you want to have your camera really splashed, you will need to have weather proof lenses too... so not really something to consider unless you get weather proof lenses.

All cameras can take moderate water drops anyway.

Pentax' image stabilization is the least effective system currently on the market, compared to KM/Sony, Olympus in-body IS and Nikon and Canon's in-lens IS with the newer generation IS lenses.

A Tokina 12-24mm lens does not come with pentax mount.
And Pentax does not have a paasable 70/75-300 lens in its line-up, making the Sigma 70-300 the best option.

All in all, if you can afford a Canon 40D or 30D with 70-300 IS from Canon, image quality wise that seems to be a better option. And the IS will outperform that of the K10D.

[Michael Bert]

Cost does play a big role, I like the Canon XTi in regards to the photo quality settings and software.
I'm not to excited about the quality of the camera itself, feels cheap and when you flip the flash up you would think it would break.
The pentax feels like you could throw it a a moving truck and it would still work.
The Sigma 70 to 300 sounds good, is the 18 to 55 stock lens on the Pentax
of good quality?

Thanks,

Mike

[coldrain]

No, it is not of good quality. It is sort of passable.
The Pentax 16-45mm f4 lens is a lot better in most respects, and could be found for around $300 a while ago.
But now it seems to be back at its $410 level again?
Another lens that will perform well on a K10D is the $420 Sigma 18-50 f2.8 EX DC Macro.
Both prices are taken from bhphotovideo.com.

The feel is subjective, the Canon XTi is really rather sturdy. My 350D gets thrown and tossed around quite a bit, and it takes all the abuse without complaining.
In case of an XTi, the new 18-55 with IS is an interesting option too.

[Rhys]

No, it is not of good quality. It is sort of passable.
The Pentax 16-45mm f4 lens is a lot better in most respects, and could be found for around $300 a while ago.
But now it seems to be back at its $410 level again?
Another lens that will perform well on a K10D is the $420 Sigma 18-50 f2.8 EX DC Macro.
Both prices are taken from bhphotovideo.com.

The feel is subjective, the Canon XTi is really rather sturdy. My 350D gets thrown and tossed around quite a bit, and it takes all the abuse without complaining.
In case of an XTi, the new 18-55 with IS is an interesting option too.

I note that Coldrain is now an expert on the K10D having never ever owned one.

I own an XT and a 30D and my niece (who lives with us) owns an XTi. None of those are remotely splashproof. Neither the XT nor the XTi is at all robust. The 30D is more robust but even so I would hesitate to abuse it the way Coldrain claims to abuse his XTi.

The big thing about the K10D is that it can counter the twisting motion of a ship rolling at sea. The more image stabilisation you can get the better. Other companies can only compensate for vertical or horizontal motion. I have seen arguments in favour of both in-lens and in-body image stabilisation. I have seen the results of both and to be quite honest I don't really see anything to rate one over the other. The bonus of in-body, however, is that the sensor can be rotated to counter a twisting motion. Having said that, it's possible for the in-lens manufacturers to put that into their bodies.

The only places where the K10D can be faulted are:
1. No AA battery support. I believe Fuji's S3Pro takes AA batteries. Some other manufacturers have built-on grips that take AA batteries.
2. Moire. This is something that has afflicted all manufacturers at some point or other and can be avoided with care. I have seen moire issues with the K10D and the Nikon D70.
3. AF can be slower than some other manufacturers - especially when using older lenses.

The big bonus of the K10D is that with a cheap KAF-M42 adaptor, any lens ever made by or for Pentax or any lens in an M42 mount can fit. Not only that but it can be used effectively and becomes image stabilised.

[coldrain]

Shaking the camera always is "twisting". I guess someone likes the marketing blurb of Pentax too much.

No matter what you do to the camera, the image will always be planar to the sensor, so the image always only needs to be corrected either verticall, horizontally or diagonally. The sensor never has to change it's plane, as the projected image never changes its plane. If the sensor would change its angle to the image plane, you would get serious out of focus problems very soon. So no, the sensor does not "twist", it only moves horizontally and vertically in the projected image plane.

So... it is all a bit nonsensical, this "twisting" whatever it may comprise.
Fact remains that the in-lens IS from newer generation Canon and Nikon lenses outperforms the in-body IS from Pentax, and that the in-body IS fron Sony and Olympus outperforms that from Pentax too.

The images are only going to be as good as your lens allows... and in tele range the Pentax lens lineup does not have much to offer.

Rhys, have you ever experienced your XT or your niece's XTi to break? No?
Fine. Me neither (my 350D and my sister's 400D). And Rhys, do you all of a sudden own a K10D? Right.

The XT/XTi and 350D/400D both are robust, they withstand a lot of being thrown into bags, small drops, snow, rain and what not (as my poor 350D has). And it even has been on boats...

So, OP, I would seriously have a good look at if Pentax will have the right lens line-up for you in future... if not, go with another make.

[eman]

I don't want to take sides to either Coldrain or Rhys, but I'll state I do own a K10D.

I was in the same situation about 6 months ago (first venture into the DSLR market). The Canon 40D wasn't out back then, otherwise I would of gotten it instead of my K10D (money was a lesser issue for me), given my level of knowledge of DSLRs was based on big name brands (C & N brands) back then. The main reasons I end up getting the K10D were the in camera IS (as I was thinking every lense will have IS with the in body IS and I did found the IS lense price quite a bit more then non IS lense, as moving from P&P to DSLR was already a big jump in the $ department) and the feel of the camera in my hand. I played around a bit with the Xti, but it just didn't feel good holding it, felt like I could drop it easily and too plastic feel to it. The K10D on the other hand felt very solid and comfortable and I can have a firm grip to it.

I knew before getting my DSLR, that learning post processing is a must inorder to take full advantage of DSLR. Without learning post processing it is analogous of getting a fancy sports car but with automatic instead of manual. I think the very least of PP is converting RAW into jpg. As shooting RAW saved me once due to a defective aperture spring that cause all F-stop settings to set at the smallest aperture (I was trying to save battery power by not using the LCD), but during PP, RAW allows the changing of exposure on the computer. So now I shoot all my pictures in RAW mode. Plus I have learned a few more tricks then just converting RAW, so I don't have to always drive in 1st gear :)

As to the in camera jpg setting, I think if you turn up the sharpness and color, it should produce a fairly good result, but the best result would still be PP it on your computer.

[Rhys]

I don't want to take sides to either Coldrain or Rhys, but I'll state I do own a K10D.

I was in the same situation about 6 months ago (first venture into the DSLR market). The Canon 40D wasn't out back then, otherwise I would of gotten it instead of my K10D (money was a lesser issue for me), given my level of knowledge of DSLRs was based on big name brands (C & N brands) back then. The main reasons I end up getting the K10D were the in camera IS (as I was thinking every lense will have IS with the in body IS and I did found the IS lense price quite a bit more then non IS lense, as moving from P&P to DSLR was already a big jump in the $ department) and the feel of the camera in my hand. I played around a bit with the Xti, but it just didn't feel good holding it, felt like I could drop it easily and too plastic feel to it. The K10D on the other hand felt very solid and comfortable and I can have a firm grip to it.

I knew before getting my DSLR, that learning post processing is a must inorder to take full advantage of DSLR. Without learning post processing it is analogous of getting a fancy sports car but with automatic instead of manual. I think the very least of PP is converting RAW into jpg. As shooting RAW saved me once due to a defective aperture spring that cause all F-stop settings to set at the smallest aperture (I was trying to save battery power by not using the LCD), but during PP, RAW allows the changing of exposure on the computer. So now I shoot all my pictures in RAW mode. Plus I have learned a few more tricks then just converting RAW, so I don't have to always drive in 1st gear :)

As to the in camera jpg setting, I think if you turn up the sharpness and color, it should produce a fairly good result, but the best result would still be PP it on your computer.

Ok. The million dollar question - how do you find the twisting stabilisation and the image quality?

[coldrain]

Ok. The million dollar question - how do you find the twisting stabilisation and the image quality?
Don't forget the 10 million dollar question, Rhys:
How do you find the image quality difference between the Canon 70-300 f4-5.6 IS USM on a 400D or 40D and the Sigma 70-300 f4-5.6 APO DG on a Pentax K10D?

Because that lens is going to be the biggest difference in image quality.

And still, the "twisting IS" is a moot point. In case you have not thought about it yet, in-lens IS never measures the camera shake at the rotation center of the shaking hands. And the Pentax really only moves its sensor horizontally and vertically.

[BLWNHR]

I'm going to answer some points as factually as I can. Some will say I'm biassed because I own a K10D, rest assured I am not. If I hadn't already made a financial investment in Pentax lenses I probably would have just as easily moved to Nikon or Canon when I went to DSLR.

I've had my K10D since May, but have taken over 11,000 shots at motorsport events, field sports, weddings, portraits and a few landscapes. I think I am pretty well versed in its workings and am able to offer a fairly educated answer.

First up,
A Canon EOS 40D is the better camera, but lenses are more important. The Canon Lens line-up is a lot wider, so first figure out if Pentax actually can deliver the lenses you would be needing.
The 2 main points 40D has slightly better high-ISO performance and sharper JPEGs.

Pentax's ISO noise can be corrected by 3rd party software, however the noise is greatly reduced if the images are slightly over-exposed. This is all part of knowing the workings of your chosen photography tool.

As for the JPEGs; I rarely shoot RAW. I will for important shoots like weddings, portraits and if I know I'll be blowing it up huge. The rest of the time I shoot JPEG. You'll never pick the difference on prints below 20"x24" and unless you set out to spot the difference I think you'd never tell. How do I know? I've done the experiments.

The focussing system can be better in Canon than Pentax, depending on lenses and what you're shooting. The 40D also has a higher frames-per-second count if that's going to be an issue for you.

Anyway... the K10D is not waterproof, it is splash proof. And the K10D is probably as splash proof as the Canon EOS 40D and the Sony A700.
Nope, it isn't waterproof, you certainly can't take it swimming. It is weatherproof however, this includes rain, snow, dust, humidity. I've compared a 40D and a K10D and I feel much more confident about the seals in the K10D I can tell you. To make the camera weatherproof you need the appropriate lenses ie. the DA* series. I've seen K10Ds with DA* lenses put in sinks with the tap on flat out and they are still working fine to this day. There are also some photos of a K10D+DA* 50-135 kicking 'round somewhere that's been dropped in a muddy puddle in Malaysia only to be rinsed off and continue shooting.

Pentax' image stabilization is the least effective system currently on the market, compared to KM/Sony, Olympus in-body IS and Nikon and Canon's in-lens IS with the newer generation IS lenses.
The Pentax in-body SR/IS/VR (whatever you want to call it) is no good for fast panning at focal lengths below 300mm. I shoot a LOT of motorsport and not having SR on doesn't worry me as the cars are following a pretty set path so you tuck your arms in and pan away. However something like soccer where the players are all over the place you need it. With the K10D coupled with the Sigma 50-500 I find that I shoot mostly 250mm+, leave the SR on all the time and never have a problem. If the action comes closer the SR will blur the image occasionally because the action is moving a bit fast. That being said, for static/slow moving (jogging) subjects SR works a treat for all focal lengths.

Even at 500mm I find the SR works acceptably. I did do an experiment on this and will get 'round to posting the results eventually.


So, there you have it. I hope you find my objective opinion useful. No the K10D isn't the greatest camera on the market, nor is the 40D, both have flaws. Depending on what you are doing with the K10D some of these flaws may be accentuated (panning where you want SR, high-ISO situations). However, in my experience these issues can become non-issues very easily by using some forward thought and some skill.

Just remember the camera is the tool, the photographer takes the photo. Sometimes you may need to work a bit harder with the K10D. Does this make the price difference between a 40D and a K10D worthwhile? You decide Michael.

[Michael Bert]

Thanks guys for all the great info.
I looked at the reveiw for the Canon 40D and it looks like a great Camera.
But a little more than my wife and I have agreed to spend.
I have no more than $1100.00 to spend on a camera and two lens, 18 to 55 mm and a 70 to 300mm.

I like the Canon Xti, it less expensive and takes great pics in Jpeg but it doesnt feel comfortable in my hands.

I like the Nikon D40x it feels good and takes better pics in jpeg, and looks easy to use. But the is no bracking, dust reduction and no RAW software.

The Pentax K10D has everthing I like, but the photo quality I want in Jpeg lacks.
I would like to pick up the camera and take the very best photos possible without going to Raw and having to post process.
I will slowly dive deeper into the finer points of photography.
Can one of you guys help in my decision, Its still a tough one .
And what 18 to 55 lens would you suggest?

Thanks,

Mike

Mike

[Razr]

I am a graduate of the point and shoot club, and now I am looking for a good D SLR.
I mostly photograph fishing trips, fish jumping, and wildlife.
From what I have read, I really like the Pentax K10D but I am worried about the photo quality.
I understand raw makes it better, but it sounds like a lot of work to get a nice photo. (what does it entail?)
Is there a easier way to get the very best out of this camera (using jpeg) ?

Or am I best to go to Canon with a better lens.? :confused:

Thanks

MikeThe PENTAX K10D is weatherproof and has built-in IS.
PENTAX SMC (ghostless) coated lenses are excellent quality lenses that take no back seat to any other maker's lenses.

The PENTAX KA2 mount on the K10D utilizes every lens PENTAX has ever made, including (with the proper adapter), PENTAX M 42 screwmount lenses.

Canon EOS lenses, while good (I own a gaggle of both marks), do not, at the same time-outperform quality PENTAX lenses, in particular, the PENTAX Limited Series of jewel-like lenses.

[Lilchilichoco]

Lol......this tug-of-war always makes me giggle. Don't let us scare you off MB. This is.....umm.......standard practice. ;):)


You might want to look at the Pentax DSLR photo thread in the photo gallery

http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27939


Also, if you are concerned about Jpeg, you might want to look at my thread

http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31413


Almost all my shots are Jpeg.


All the best and happy choosing!








Best Regards

[fionndruinne]

For Nikon, I'd advise Adobe Lightroom or Nikon's Capture NX for handling raw files. Given that bundled raw software generally isn't user-friendly enough to merit extensive use, I'd not chalk that up as a huge failure on Nikon's part.

(and as for 'dust reduction systems', I say, pah! Show me one that works well - other than Olympus, which has an Achilles' heel elsewhere than its DR - and I'll take two!)

[BLWNHR]

The Pentax K10D has everthing I like, but the photo quality I want in Jpeg lacks.
I would like to pick up the camera and take the very best photos possible without going to Raw and having to post process.

Please don't let it worry you. I just got a photo back from the printers today, 20x24, shot in-camera JPEG, with a Sigma 18-125 and it is acceptably sharp.

To be honest most people will rarely print above 8x12 and for that you'll never tell the difference between RAW and in-camera JPEG.

Please check out my collection of galleries. All shot in-camera JPEG. Like I say, I only shoot RAW for really important shots.

Gallery at AGSPhotos.com. (http://www.agsphotos.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=32)

[Michael Bert]

:Thanks guys for all the really good imput.
I have decided on the K10 D.
I think for my application ( fishing guide\ wannabee photoghapher) it will be
a good tool.
If it dosen't fullfill my expectations I would have no emotional problems selling it at a loss and buying a Nikon or Canon.

I am sure I will have questions & reasons to contact you guys again.:

Cheers,

Mike

[greatlakes]

Did some research , here is the more info on Pentax K10D digital camera (http://http://www.retrevo.com/s/Pentax-K10D-Digital-Cameras-review-manual/id/918bh426/t/1-2/)

[BLWNHR]

I have decided on the K10 D.


Congratulations on your purchase, I am confident you won't be disappointed.

If you have any questions feel free to pop over to PentaxForums (http://www.pentaxforums.com) and have a chat. :)

[SpecialK]

Shaking the camera always is "twisting". I guess someone likes the marketing blurb of Pentax too much.

No matter what you do to the camera, the image will always be planar to the sensor, so the image always only needs to be corrected either verticall, horizontally or diagonally. The sensor never has to change it's plane, as the projected image never changes its plane. If the sensor would change its angle to the image plane, you would get serious out of focus problems very soon. So no, the sensor does not "twist", it only moves horizontally and vertically in the projected image plane.

So... it is all a bit nonsensical, this "twisting" whatever it may comprise.
Fact remains that the in-lens IS from newer generation Canon and Nikon lenses outperforms the in-body IS from Pentax, and that the in-body IS fron Sony and Olympus outperforms that from Pentax too.



The twisting is meant as a rotational movement (as left side up, right side down when pressing the shutter :-), not a change of image sensor plane. Functionality is arguable and argued.

Never heard of a moire problem with the K10D. The vertical pattern noise issue seems to have died out, too.

Have fun.