GF is shooting a wedding. I am worried...

[herc182]

RIght. She owns a canon 400D with a kit lens. She also has the 50mm. Now read this knowing that I am not being harsh, only that I dont think she knows what she is getting herself into.

Her friend has asked her to take photos at her wedding. I think she means "We dont want to hire and expensive photographer, you have a nice professional looking camera, can you do it?". GF has said yes and seems excited about it. I would be apprehensive. She is an amateur to advanced amateur at best, and is no expert in knowing what her camera can do.

I am sure a flash is a necessity and that a better lens probably required. I dont think she understands that these are photos that the bride and groom will be cherishing for the rest of their lives.

So what do you advise I should do? advise her against it (and how to do that without crushing her) or encourage her, try to give advice (or which i dont have any in wedding photography!). Ultimately, knowing how some women are (not being sexist) it could end up in tears for my GF and the bride....

I will be looking at other posts on the subject such as:
http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34228&highlight=wedding

Thanks in advance

[e_dawg]

Yeah, I know what you're saying man. But I would also say that you can say almost anything to anyone if you know how to say it. There is a book called Crucial Conversations that is absolutely excellent at teaching you techniques on how to broach sensitive issues and discuss things that could be hurtful or insulting.

In all honesty and seriousness, this is one of the best and most useful books I've ever read and it has helped me in my personal and work relationships. This example sounds like a classic case where this book would be useful. Check it out:

http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Tools-Talking-Stakes/dp/0071401946/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6904925-8314411?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193580274&sr=8-1

Ultimately, though, as long as the bride and your gf know that the pics won't be perfect and they're okay with that (this is something your gf needs to talk to the bride about, straight-up), then don't worry about it, be positive, and supportive of your gf. No criticism, negativity, or fussing allowed. It's easier said than done when inside you feel like cringing every time she's "doing it wrong", but it's her mistakes to make and her lessons to learn.

Anyways, that's enough from me and my 2 cents.

[Paradox]

I'd try and convince the bride and groom to get a second photographer in as well - preferably professional. Your GF can still shoot merrily away, and could very well capture some great shots. But if for some reason it all goes pear shaped, the bride and groom have a back up. It's a very important day, and anything that can go wrong will go wrong. If for example the camera fails, you're up the creek. A secondary photographer is always a good thing. Plus this shouldn't hurt your GF's ego too much. ;) Plus she can learn from the professional at the same time. It's a win-win situation, apart from the cash gone.

[herc182]

Thanks for your input guys. I am notoriously bad at foot in mouth disease, and I am only trying to think of both parties interests. But it might come across as if I am being nasty, or spiteful. I have added that book to my shopping list :) Thanks.

I think I will first tell her to start taking more photos (as she doesnt even take that many photos anyway!). So that she gets more confident using the camera. She is very naive and will just think she can rock up, put it on auto and fire away.

[e_dawg]

Well you know, maybe there is something to be learned from your gf's approach. Sometimes, we obsess too much about technical perfection in our shots instead of just seeing the beauty and trying to capture the moment "close enough".

Most girls don't give a rat's a*s about sharpness, bokeh, or equipment. I have a bunch of 8x10 prints on the wall of my office at work. All the guys that come in marvel at the sharpness and detail and ask me about what printer, camera, lens do you have? How many megapixels? Shutter speed to get that shot, etc. I rarely get comments about the beauty or content of the shots.

The girls? They talk about how beautiful the flower is, the colours, where was this taken, look at the expression on her face, etc. but rarely any comments on sharpness, detail, how noise-free the images are, what camera / lens / printer I used.

[XaiLo]

Well the third approach if money is the issue for the wedding couple. Why don't you back up your GF as the second photog. there are plenty of wedding day image lists. Sit down with her and visit different wedding photographers web sites, to help her visualize what is expected. and other things along those lines you can express your concerns but offering this as an alternative will get you out of the dog house. :)

[herc182]

Well you know, maybe there is something to be learned from your gf's approach. Sometimes, we obsess too much about technical perfection in our shots instead of just seeing the beauty and trying to capture the moment "close enough".

Most girls don't give a rat's a*s about sharpness, bokeh, or equipment. I have a bunch of 8x10 prints on the wall of my office at work. All the guys that come in marvel at the sharpness and detail and ask me about what printer, camera, lens do you have? How many megapixels? Shutter speed to get that shot, etc. I rarely get comments about the beauty or content of the shots.

The girls? They talk about how beautiful the flower is, the colours, where was this taken, look at the expression on her face, etc. but rarely any comments on sharpness, detail, how noise-free the images are, what camera / lens / printer I used.

LOL. I know what you mean. My brother will instantly look at the noise levels and others will ask what resolution the camera is and how big it is.

She is definately more creative than me and I do envy that her first reaction was excitement whereas my first reaction would have been "Oh shit"....

[herc182]

Well the third approach if money is the issue for the wedding couple. Why don't you back up your GF as the second photog. there are plenty of wedding day image lists. Sit down with her and visit different wedding photographers web sites, to help her visualize what is expected. and other things along those lines you can express your concerns but offering this as an alternative will get you out of the dog house. :)

Hmm. The problem with that approach is that she thinks I am a much better photographer. And although I have taken some good shots, I dont do that many portraits and it might give her a license to use me as a safety net. She may also think that I would be taking better photos (not the case) and hence maybe ruin it for her!

However i like the kudos points idea :D

[XaiLo]

Well then combine her creative ability with your technical assets and do something wonderful together. Who knows it might mean the beginning of a wonderful enterprise. :)

[TheObiJuan]

Do what's best for the bride and groom--help them and your GF out.
Worst case scenario is your GF learns some techniques from you and the couple gets better pictures. :p

[TheWengler]

Someone has to be the first victim. :D Just make sure the bride and groom know the cost of free pictures. I also think you should get out there with her to get some shots. There's only one way to get better...

[Rooz]

The girls? They talk about how beautiful the flower is, the colours, where was this taken, look at the expression on her face, etc. but rarely any comments on sharpness, detail, how noise-free the images are, what camera / lens / printer I used.

thats becasue they ARE sharp and DO have good bokeh and HAVE great colour....but most importantly becasue they have no emotional attachmenet to them. when things turn out well there are no questions, but make no mistake, show a bride some really crap wedding photos and the questions, (and tears), will come thick and fast.

assuming that your gf is intent on doing this and she is going to do the wedding, there's only one thing for it...practice, practice, practice.

i would STRONGLY suggest she shoots in RAW. if you can afford it grab a flash. doesn;t have to be anything great, pick up a used one on ebay. a flash will have the most impact by a long way. all of my sons christening photos were taken by a person who never used an SLR in his life but once you mount a flash the odds of them screwing up a photo greatly diminish. if you can't get a flash then you need to pay attention to the light. if you notice the light deteriorating then look at her settings and switch to Tv and bump up the iso to get her shutter speed up.

the right aperture makes a good photo great but the wrong shutter speed can make a good photo crap. keep in mind movement in your subject and camera shake blur at say 1/15s etc cannot be repaired in PP.

you can get away with it on the kit lens cos PP will fix the issue of sharpness. and the xti is good enuf to crop back significantly if you need to alter composition. the xti can also shoot at iso 800 with some success, so use the iso where necessary.

what is particulalry scary is metering so you probably need to pay attention to where she is standing in relation to the sun/ light. the 400d is notorious for its average matrix metering especially in auto mode so imo, this is the most crucial piece of the puzzle. also think about lifting your EV to +0.3EV to counteract the xti's tendancy to underexpose a tad.

i'd also take your cam with you and get her to use it if possible. not cos its a better camera, but becasue you have a better lens.

[herc182]

Thanks everyone. The wedding is next august so she has plenty of time to start takin pictures of crying women.
I guess you are right (Rooz) in terms of fixing the sharpness in photoshop, but I was thinking more along the lines of reach. I was thinking something like the 55-200mm I have. To isolate details.

She has spoken to the bride and she has said that she knows not to expect the earth. At the same time (as any man wil know) she is expecting Jupiter instead.

SO yes, a flash is essential and maybe a longer reach lens? (although that would render the flash useless hence it needing to be a fast zoom, which will cost a bomb.

I also agree that I should go along (or even lend her my camera and lenses?...lets see how much alcohol I can drink from here until then...)

Ultimately, I want this to be a slap in the right direction for her to start taking photos and using her camera more, so I think the wedding is the slap.

In the meantime, I might get her a book (any recommendations - for weddings, or a back issue of a magazine?) or any good web links.

Rooz, Does the xti (400D) UNDERexpose? If so thats a good piece of advice. I will check it out next time I am holding the bugger.

Thanks again

[TheObiJuan]

There's about a -1/3EV I noticed.
This is a good thing so you can save the white dress from overexposing and fix the exposure in post.
Do a simple batch correction in seconds to all of the photos.

[Rooz]

yupp, as obi said, by 1/3 to 1/2 stop. basically the opposite of the d80 which overexposes by about the same amount. thats pretty important to remember for the exact reason obi said. to preserve bright whites you try and dial the cam down 1/2 stop. but if you do that in the xti your effectively going down a full stop.

[Turn]

Flash is 10000% definite

that or you're gonna either need good natural light or use high(ish) ISO settings

[tcadwall]

LOL! August is a LONG ways away!

Make sure that the bride understands that there is a lot of effort that goes into it, and that you will be spending the gift money on equipment.

You have received a lot of good advice here. I used to shoot wedding video. And it was the same for me. A list of things that I wasn't going to miss. An additional (optional) list that the bride and groom could choose (like getting ready shots), engagement shots (prior to wedding), etc. A list is imperative for this, as well as an equipment list. Making sure spare batteries are charged, Memory cards are empty, flash, tripod (not always convenient but in bad lighting may be helpful), etc. Check off your shot list as you take the shots so that you don't miss the little stuff, like the grandparents, family shots, reception food & decorations, etc.

Really, don't make it a nervous mess, practice, and make lists, then you can have some peace of mind.

If you can visit the location way ahead of time with your equipment, you might be able to get an idea of whether you can get good exposures with your equipment or whether you need faster, longer, etc. lenses, or more powerful flashes....

[herc182]

LOL! August is a LONG ways away!

Make sure that the bride understands that there is a lot of effort that goes into it, and that you will be spending the gift money on equipment.

You have received a lot of good advice here. I used to shoot wedding video. And it was the same for me. A list of things that I wasn't going to miss. An additional (optional) list that the bride and groom could choose (like getting ready shots), engagement shots (prior to wedding), etc. A list is imperative for this, as well as an equipment list. Making sure spare batteries are charged, Memory cards are empty, flash, tripod (not always convenient but in bad lighting may be helpful), etc. Check off your shot list as you take the shots so that you don't miss the little stuff, like the grandparents, family shots, reception food & decorations, etc.

Really, don't make it a nervous mess, practice, and make lists, then you can have some peace of mind.

If you can visit the location way ahead of time with your equipment, you might be able to get an idea of whether you can get good exposures with your equipment or whether you need faster, longer, etc. lenses, or more powerful flashes....

Thanks Tcadwall. Good advice there. i know its a long time away, but there is a lot of practice required for her!! and also, if you say yes to the couple, i assume you cant pull out as they would be buggered to find a photographer on short notice. hence my concern!! :D

[hankbeblazin]

Well the third approach if money is the issue for the wedding couple. Why don't you back up your GF as the second photog. there are plenty of wedding day image lists. Sit down with her and visit different wedding photographers web sites, to help her visualize what is expected. and other things along those lines you can express your concerns but offering this as an alternative will get you out of the dog house. :)

thats an excellent idea...and then if you are there too she can ask you questions about stuff if she gets stuck

[K1W1]

Get your GF to spend an afternoon with the couple in a local park or somewhere taking portrait shots.
See what both parties think of the outcome. If they do it soon and the wedding shoot is a goer your GF has plenty of time to practice and refine her technique. If by mutual consent it's not going to work then it's been a good learning experience for both parties and they remain friends with no harm done.

[Turn]

I think you both should get out into the parks and city or whatever and just take lots and lots of photos

and don't delay it, start now because the difference between now and starting it later is that you then have less time to do so

This could be a very good experience for your girlfriend :) and with that much time to practice, it could really make a difference.

[herc182]

thanks for your comments everyone. i think the consensus is to dump my girlfriend and not bother with the hassle :D

Seriously though, we need to get buy in from the couple on the type of shots they are likely to get (or want), get my GF practising (with the flash as well!) and to buy a flash.

Its a long time until there, and my supply of patience and neurofen will be tested (and no doubt depleted) come August next year.
I suspect this thread will stay open for a while to come...

Thanks again, I will print this out (edit out some of my posts) and show it to her.

[mugsisme]

Is it too late for me to jump in? (Did you already print out?)

The idea of going to the park now is a fantastic idea. I actually think it was the best one mentioned here so far.

Now, as a woman, can I ask you a question? Is your GF's friend having a huge formal wedding with everything all perfect? Or is it a little more casual? Is she asking your GF because she is cheap, or because she is a friend and the pix don't have to be absolutely perfect? I have had affairs where I wanted everything perfect down to every last detail. I have had some functions that were much more laid back, and in that case, if the pictures were more informal, then so be it. (For my own wedding, I had a perfect deal. LOL.) Who is going to pay for the prints? Who is going to pay for the album? Is your GFs gift to her the time she is going to spend editing the pictures? Is your GF going to enjoy the wedding if she is working rather than there as a guest? Has she thought of any of this?

[e_dawg]

^^^
Important points that need to be clarified. See, that's why you need a woman's perspective here ;)

[herc182]

Now, as a woman, can I ask you a question? Is your GF's friend having a huge formal wedding with everything all perfect?

Its a big wedding. I assume its all perfect (isnt it always?!)


Or is it a little more casual? Is she asking your GF because she is cheap, or because she is a friend and the pix don't have to be absolutely perfect?

She is asking because she is cheap and cannot afford a photographer!

I have had affairs where I wanted everything perfect down to every last detail. I have had some functions that were much more laid back, and in that case, if the pictures were more informal, then so be it. (For my own wedding, I had a perfect deal. LOL.) Who is going to pay for the prints?

My GF is not charging anything for the service, but I have not thought about the actual photos. I assumed we would have given them a CD. However, that doesnt sound right. Should give them a select bunch printed....THEY SHOULD pay for that I guess?

Who is going to pay for the album? Is your GFs gift to her the time she is going to spend editing the pictures?

I have told her not to get them anything if, in order to prepare for the wedding, she has to buy a flash and faster glass (a lot of money) not to mention spending the day (and day before) running around like a chimp.

Is your GF going to enjoy the wedding if she is working rather than there as a guest?

Definately wont be enjoying the day i dont think. However, she loves that sort of thing (being creative). SHe has already been bouncing ideas off me about props and poses etc. She is excited about it which will carry her through I think (I hope)

Has she thought of any of this?

I think she is still on cloud number 9. When she comes down I will throw this thread in front of her...(I have not printed it yet :D)




God I think I am doing the stressing for her!

Thanks for your input mugsisme. Good to have the other sides opinion :)

[DonSchap]

This is general advice, for anyone considering doing something of this nature:

You want to do everyone a favor? If you have the time, do a "trial run" of the entire setting.

Honestly, get that bride & groom over to the church or park or whatever, when no one else is around and just fire away. Practice the ceremony, to get the timing right ... set the lights and practice. If you jump in there, without doing this and go completely raw, it will be a problematic effort, to say the least (I have other words for what happens, but I will refrain from doing so because of mixed-company).

In a way, problems can be dealt with quite effectively, NOW, rather than later. Most likely you will realize that you will not be able to use a f/4 (or worse) lens at a high enough shutter speed to eliminate blur (subject or handheld).

No flash? You will have to invest in f/2 or f/2.8 lenses to allow for this, or be subjected to high ISO-noise and color saturation issues. But, you need to know this and the only way to do so is ...

GO THERE AND FIND OUT! :eek:

[herc182]

thanks DonSchap. you are right. I will get her out there to test herself.

In the meantime, can anyone post any links that are useful (such as "how to shoot a wedding", "how to use a flash") etc.

i will obviously be googling it but personal recommendations are always better :D

thanks

[XaiLo]

http://strobist.blogspot.com/ (http://strobist.blogspot.com/)

&

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=wedding+picture+list (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=wedding+picture+list)

[tcadwall]

Know what? I am not sure whether this was mentioned during this thread, but DO find out if flash is allowed during the wedding. This is NOT always the decision of the Bride, it ALSO depends on the master of ceremony (normally a minister) AS WELL AS the actual venue. Some churches will NOT allow flashes

Personally, I don't like to use a flash during a ceremony anyway.

[K1W1]

Some churches will NOT allow flashes

I've been to at least two weddings where the Priest would not even allow photographs. In both cases it was claimed that the shutter noise disturbed the atmosphere. In one case I had to have a minor coughing fit each time the photographer (happened to know her but I was at the wedding as a guest) nodded at me. :)

[r3g]

In one case I had to have a minor coughing fit each time the photographer (happened to know her but I was at the wedding as a guest) nodded at me. :)



That is pure comedy!!

[DonSchap]

That's just silly ... shutter noise? How about running water in the Baptismal Font?

Reverend::: "I need absolute quiet, while these two innocent children tie-the-knot. Is there anyone here who has any reason why these two should not be wed?"

Stooge in the audience::: "Yeah ... the photographer's camera is making too much shutter and focusing noise! He must use HSM or USM lensing, otherwise ... they simply cannot be married."

Reverend::: "Stop the ceremony! Stop the ceremony! What kind of camera are you using, sir. I simply must inspect it."

After many tense moments of clerical examination ... "I'm sorry, we must draw this wedding to a close. He's using an XTi with a 35mm f/2 'Bumblebee' ... and that's just not allowed, by decree by the Vatican. You see, right here, written right here, next to the 'Lord's Prayer' in the red text ... Thou shalt not use a flash or a 35mm f/2 lens for weddings. Please, everyone, vacate the church and come back when you have a better rig to shoot the ceremony with."

C'mon, people. What kind of nonsense is this?

[e_dawg]

K1W1, that's hillarious. And Don, you just took it to another level! I needed that laugh. Thank you.

[r3g]

ROFL, Don where do u get this stuff hahaha

(dont mean to be off topic but there is nothing I can say that hasnt already been said)

[mugsisme]

Bwahaha, Don, you are so funny.

My library has a lot of books on wedding photography. Why not stop there first since you get the books and not spend any money on them.

[aparmley]

I was in a similar situation once and the best advice I was given is as follows:

"If a friend is getting married then that friend, if they really are a friend, would want you to enjoy the special day, celebrate with them, and have a good time. That friend should/would not want to make you work (and its hard hard work) all day at his/her wedding and spend countless hours working after its all over. This friend would also never put you in a situation where the fruits of your labors could ever possibly risk the friendship you two have (i.e. once they realize those moments have passed and will never be repeated and that you missed them, this could ruin a friendship)."

Have your GF choose to enjoy the day and you'll enjoy the day and the following weeks.

I agree there has to be that first couple but make it a stranger who is paying. The worst thing that happens if major mistakes are made is that you refund the money. Here whats at stake is a friendship and a friends memories.

[tcadwall]

I feel the biggest (not most frequent but worst) mistake that a wedding photographer makes is double-booking, or for some other reason missing the wedding altogether. If you are capable of taking good photos and have the necessary equipment, including backup batteries, backup memory cards, etc. Then you should have almost guaranteed results - you AREN'T going to forget about your friend's wedding.

Assuming that you aren't going to make that mistake, and have mitigated the rest of the possibilities by good planning, setting reasonable expectations, etc.... You should discuss the risks, and your assessment of your capabilities, and offer to recommend another photographer if they weren't willing to live with the risk.

To argue the friendship lost thing, if the friendship IS sound, and you screw something up, it is going to be harder on you than the bride - that is a risk that YOU have to decide on. If you are confident enough in your abilities that you know you won't have to worry about screwing something up that is going to make you feel badly for a long time, then a good relationship is strong enough to deal with it as well.

As long as your equipment and you are up to the challenge, and you have planned it, have all the t's crossed and i's dotted, then you are GOING to learn something and possibly launch your hobby to a new level.

Personality types really show through in a subject like this.... I am a type-A but I take the time to plan things out and have backup everything.

The first wedding I ever did videography for, was for a close family friend. They got a better video than I have ever done for any other event. They paid me very little (about 10% of what I would have charged a stranger), and I was happy to do all the work as a gift. - This job ended up being a springboard for other weddings and events (which I no longer do, because I need my weekends). I enjoyed the wedding, I enjoyed the reception, and I gave them a gift that even the husband has watched MANY times they tell me. If you truly enjoy capturing moments in time, then you will enjoy the wedding and celebrations, even if you are enjoying it through a viewfinder. I just don't listen to all the "all gloom and doom, fear of failure, enormous risk" arguments. My philosophy is plan it, practice, and then enjoy doing it.

[herc182]

rather than start another thread in here, i have started one in the canon forum for what lens to get.

http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=272060#post272060

please pitch in if you have an opinion on lenses from the other side :)

Thanks