Question about Charging Someone

[hankbeblazin]

For commerical photography what is a good starting rate to charge a customer?


i'm taking pictures of a guy who breeds horses and i have to photograph 30 horses, not only standing still but going over jumps also.

should i say hourly?

or should i say a flat rate?

[jcon]

I understand these type of questions but the same answer applies to everyone. Its up to YOU to determine what you are worth. Its also up to YOU on whether to charge hourly, or one flat rate.

What I will suggest is charging hourly and then charge for pictures ordered. Remember, when charging hourly or a flat rate, dont forget to add in your time for editing the photos, that takes time and should be paid for as well.

[hankbeblazin]

it kind of depends these aren't people who will be able to pay 500 dollars

this is my first commercial shoot and i have no clue thats why i'm asking

i was going to say 100 or 150....too low or too high?

anyone? anyone?

[K1W1]

Think it through.
Travel time to the venue.
Photo shoot time.
Travel time home.
Editing.
Follow up.
Expenses (fuel, consumables)

$150.00 sounds like about $25/ hour to me. That's what junior staff get paid these days.

[XaiLo]

hankbeblazin,

I recently charged $150 for a 40min shoot on a commercial project, which included some light editing. In my area $1300 is the starting point for day rates $700 for a half day.

What's their budget for this project??? What are comparable rates in your area. I understand the constraints of people who can't afford what they need but in 99% of the cases it leaves you in a pinch. One reason I want out of Web Developement is I'm tired of hearing "all I want is a simple website" then they turn around and start spewing off a laundry list of features they want... I then turn around and start lmao.:D


It sounds like these are equestrian type (show jumping) images with 30 horses somebody has to have some money! If your going to give them professional images get a professional rate. This is a expensive hobby/profession. If I had 25k I still couldn't go out and get all the gear I would need. taking pictures is work and taking great pictures is a job and a half. Sometimes you just have to walk away if the price isn't right for the sake of the profession. Think about it this way the profession you undercut today is the one you'll be trying to make a living from tomorrow.

The logistics of this situation seem like they can get out of hand pretty quickly your talking 30 good images of horses in flight. hth

[hankbeblazin]

alright i get what you are saying. basically my images should speak for themselves and price accordingly. i think i can deal with that.

thanks alot for the help. i appreciate it. this is my first paid job and i want to get it right. i'm not worried about my pictures, just getting the price right. thanks.

[cvicisso]

this is my first commercial shoot and i have no clue thats why i'm asking
Based on your quote above, and speaking as an MBA, not a photographer (b/c I'm not a professional photographer :D), I can tell you that this is a very fine line you have to walk. This is your FIRST commercial shoot, and you're using an entry-level dslr (I assume from your sig line). Don't price yourself out of a sure thing - you already said these folks aren't likely to pay $500. You can theoretically charge a bizillion $$/hr - and you may actually be that good - but if no one is willing to pay you for it...

Most businesses fail because they run out of money - NOT because they're not profitable. It's all about the cash flow. Get the money, grow some customers, polish your skills, then you can bump your rate.

[Honest Gaza]

I can understand your dilemna as I was in a similar position recently.

While I agree with those that have already joined the "Professional Photographer's fraternity" that price should reflect skill, time (including travel and editing), and equipment costs....don't forget that there is also the other angle to look at.....that of opportunity.

Sometimes, you need to take the opportunity that presents itself so you can find out if indeed you are capable of such shots. As a "beginner" sometimes we prefer to take the easy option of "Thanks for the opportunity....I'll do my best....and hopefully the shots will turn out well and we can talk business in future" :)

[fionndruinne]

I doubt Hank will have a problem getting some fine images. I've seen some impressive stuff from his poor lowly D40.;)

[Rooz]

this is my first paid job and i want to get it right. i'm not worried about my pictures, just getting the price right. thanks.

the price you charge for this first job will be forgotten soon as you progress down the learning curve. don;t worry too much about it.

i'd be more worried about how you're going to capture jumping horses with that lens of a quality that the owners will be happy to pay for. pick a very bright day and make sure your subjects are front lit with as much light as possible. if you pick a day thats dark-ish then its gonna be a very tough assignment unless you hire a different lens for the job. start practicing on moving objects now.

[cvicisso]

I've seen some impressive stuff from his poor lowly D40.;)I hope my post didn't seem like D40 bashing. I happen to really like the D40 and can really appreciate what Nikon has accomplished with it. I almost bought one, and I'm sure I'd be happy with it if I had - seriously.

But your point is valid - and kind of reinforces what I'm trying to say... indirectly. The D40 takes great shots (and I'm sure Hank does too! :D). As dslrs become more ubiquitous, 'taking great shots' just won't cut it if you want to get paid for it. I just went to a wedding and took some photos with my D70 (as a friend - not a pro). The 'pro' had a 5D. This sounds awful, and I'm not sure how to word it without coming across like I'm bashing the D40, but if the pro would have a D40 and a kit lens... I don't know. Sure, it all boils down to the images, and I'm sure Ansel Adams could make a masterpiece with a pinhole camera. But... again, this is Hank's FIRST commercial shoot.

[fionndruinne]

Understood. I wasn't really looking at it from the D40-limitation area either; I just think Hank's good. As to your point, well... I think a lot of it has to do with the justification of the investment. What I mean is, a pro will see a justifiable reason for investing in a 5D and L lensing; he intends to make money off his craft. Does that mean you can't do some level of "pro" work with an entry-level camera? Not at all - just that, if you are a pro, you have a good reason for spending a lot more on your tools. If we all had more cash, and could justify a larger investment in our heads, even not as pros, wouldn't we pretty much all head for a D200 and a 70-200mm f/2.8?

Granted, the aforementioned camera would give more latitude for successful shots, but vision and determination have always been the real keys, right? I know a photographer in SoCal who sells prints, cards, et cetera... with an Olympus Camedia 4x P&S! And gets away with it! Just how much luckier are we with our D40's and D70's than that!:p

[hankbeblazin]

thanks for the comments

i'm not a beginner thats the thing. im more advanced amatuer. i know my way around a camera pretty well. i have no doubts about my images that i will get from doing this at all. i'm just wondering a good price.

as for the d-40 kit lens its pretty good. i have no problem with it. i'm buying a d200 in the next few months anyways because i will be working for the local news paper and i'll start using the D-40 as a back up.

i guess i should rephrase the question. for somone who knows what they are doing and is good at producing images. how much would be a good start for my first actual job?

[TheObiJuan]

It's almost impossible to tell you how much to charge since there are too many variables that we do not know.
It has already been told to you it depends on your travel time, editing amount, shooting time, shooting difficulty, gear needed, purpose for images, etc....

You said this place would not pay $500 dollars an hour, right?

If you have 30 horses to shoot, and will deliver at least 5 good shots of each one, and post process each one then that's 150 images, at about 5 min per image to capture, edit, and present; you have an average of 12.5 hours invested.
If you take a modest wage of $25 an hour, you get $312.50.
Broken further down, that's $10.41 a horse? Are they selling the horses, because if it helps sell them, that's a freakin' steal!

It may seem like ''a lot'' but look at what you are doing!?
30 horses, going on site, and guarantying them quality work and a selection to boot.

12.5 hours [150 images x5 min] is a significant investment--you should get paid for it appropriately.

If you present YOUR estimate and they turn you down, don't shrug it off or digress! Tell them that's your rate and you would like an opportunity to explain the rate.
Let them know all of your numbers broken down, the time involved, the labor involved, and the difficulty involved in this type of shoot. When it is broken down to the essential elements, the per shot cost could be understood, and multiplied per horse.
This IMHO would be the best approach.

The number one problem encountered by photographers is selling themselves short. If the cost is too high for the client then tell them the quality, quantity, or workload will have to reduce accordingly.

Adjust as needed to get the ''right price''

Get your Camedia out do not post process to reduce your workload.
OR
Provide only 1 image of each horse to reduce your time onsite.
OR
Reduce the amount of horses photographed in this run to reduce your time onsite and workload.
OR
Have them hire someone else that will not work for nickels and dimes.

I as well have encountered this problem in the past; I stood my ground, walked away the richer man and not afraid to ask what I am worth.
Worst thing that happens is you become known for ''chargin' too much'', boo hoo, that's a good thing. It means you're worth a damn.
The alternative is you become known as the guy that takes the bottom dollar and will work for free. :(

[tcadwall]

These are all good points. One thing that I would like to interject is (I may have overlooked it if it was provided) what is the relationship that got you this potential work. If it is a friend, family friend, etc.

The reason I mention this, is because if it is a stranger that was referred to you because of how good your work is, you really need to charge enough to live up to your reputation.

If the client IS a friend or what-not then there IS the option that you can provide an estimate / invoice that reflects a discount. If you show your going rate (higher) as well as a special discount for the relationship, you have preserved your reputation, made the client feel special, and provided a baseline for future work for HIM OR someone that he refers.

[XaiLo]

TheObiJuan, most excellent break down all photographers should know what a P&L statement is and how to use it in brief it will let you know basically what is your cost per picture, which includes the not so obvious costs involved or associated with the whole process, vehicle mileage & depreciation, camera equipment, lighting equipment, office equipment, studio, or studio time, telecom, advertising, office space even if it's a home office, utilities, proofs, shipping, internet access, and website, merchant account, business license, and taxes between this and under capitalization is why most new businesses fail. They simple do not have the money to meet their expenses and to fund growth.

When cost is brought into the picture the bigger the issue of pricing now takes on a whole new dimension it's not about how much the client wants to pay. It becomes an issue of how much do they need to pay in order for us to stay in business or to grow our business and niether of those to are free. People will try to nickel and dime you to death if you let them. This I'm speaking from experience I have several thousands of dollars worth of services that I'm still waitng to be paid on. A client with good intentions does not get the bills paid! Now cash that seems to work everytime.

And lastly skill, most photographers don't become overnight sensations and there was a cost involved getting to a certain level of proficiency. I broke down what my little hobby has cost me in equipment alone for the last couple of years and like I was shocked those little things added up to much more than I thought. Food for thought you can now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Turn]

TheObiJuan is right, you gotta stand your ground but not so much that you're treading over them.

I think a clear explanation of the justification of the price would help convince them and if not well then negotiation but you can't let them walk over you.

after all they need YOU to do this as they probably can't afford someone more expensive and if they find someone who does the same thing for less well thats just bullocks.

[hankbeblazin]

wow thanks alot Obijuan. that is definately a big help

and yeah they are selling the horses. so i mean no matter how much i charge they are going to be making bank, but probably going to buy more horses.

they are strangers, i met them at a birthday party for my mom's friend's son. they were the people who brought the horse for the kids to ride. they asked to see some of the pictures i took. and they said it was really good and wanted me to do their horses.

i think i'm going to do 350

10 dollars a horse plus pp and editting in the 50.

i'm going to start doing 450 for a half day and 700 for a full day, just to start with. then the more clients i get and referrals i'm going to raise it to 500 half day and 900 full day.....and so on.

[TheObiJuan]

There we go! Now you sound like you got some more confidence!
Pretty soon this hobby will pay for itself and maybe some eventual profit!?

Nah, there's never any profit because there's always one more lens, one more strobe, one more....

[cvicisso]

i think i'm going to do 350

10 dollars a horse plus pp and editting in the 50.

i'm going to start doing 450 for a half day and 700 for a full day, just to start with. then the more clients i get and referrals i'm going to raise it to 500 half day and 900 full day.....and so on.Awesome - good luck, Hank! Please let us know how it turns out and maybe post a pic or two if the client allows it? ;)

[XaiLo]

Hank, I forgot one thing did you ever ask what was their budget for this project or who have they used in the past? Is there a new approach they are wanting to try? Just some matter of fact probing questions in a nonchalant manner. Would help you with some insight into what's really going on with the situation.

[hankbeblazin]

i emailed them today to ask if they want all 30 horse done or what. when they email me back i'll ask about budget. but i dont think 10 dollars a horse is that expensive in my eyes.

they have taken them themselves but they came up to me because my pictures were good, and my camera is faster than their p&s. when they email me back i'll let you guys know and see what you think

[hankbeblazin]

alright

so heres the deal. i emailed him he emailed me back. its a week long project. so i seriously doubt he'll be able to afford like 7 thousand dollars haha. so i decided to do this

25 dollars a horse, which as many pictures of that horse he wanted
which comes out to i believe 750, plus 50 dollars for post processing.

for me, as my first job i think 750 for one week is good. at least its good for me.

i did alot of research and alot of people charge 25-30 dollars a horse. i based my quote off that

i told him look it over and get back to me to let me know what he thinks.

[rawpaw18]

Good luck. Sounds reasonable for your first week project.

After a while it will not sound like much, when you have to start paying quarterly taxes
and the IRS reaches deep into your pocket and pulls out fists fulls of your hard earned cash.
Sometimes they will leave you the lint, if you are lucky.

[TheObiJuan]

What IRS?
http://www.genmay.com/images/smilies/allnighte.gif
:p

[XaiLo]

What IRS?
http://www.genmay.com/images/smilies/allnighte.gif
:p


LMAO!!! The guys in the little black suits with killler pencils. lol

[XaiLo]

alright

so heres the deal. i emailed him he emailed me back. its a week long project. so i seriously doubt he'll be able to afford like 7 thousand dollars haha. so i decided to do this

25 dollars a horse, which as many pictures of that horse he wanted
which comes out to i believe 750, plus 50 dollars for post processing.

for me, as my first job i think 750 for one week is good. at least its good for me.

i did alot of research and alot of people charge 25-30 dollars a horse. i based my quote off that

i told him look it over and get back to me to let me know what he thinks.

Alrighty then Hank one of the woarse feelings to have is the one that feels like this is more work than I figured on. And knowing in the back of your mind I should have charged more.

At least now your operating from a competent and competitve proposal, $50 for post??? maybe $50 per hour but that's OK. Do a great job and knock em dead. One other thing of coarse do the they expect prints or digital image. If prints is that cover in your pricing per horse or will that be an added expense?

[hankbeblazin]

i know its not much for a week. but being that this is my first paid photography job i figured i'd try to suck them in rather than lose it. i need the money. i plan on making this a full time business. not horses but any kind of photography

there will be no prints. its all low resolution files for the internet so yeah.

but i made a webpage and am charging for the most part 500 half day 900 full day for most things.

basic portraits i'm charging 250 for an hour if it goes over an hour 50 every half hour.

i've been researching alot of webpages and i'm a little on the cheap side but reasonable. once i get more clients i'm going to start upping the prices slowly

if you want to check out the webpage please do, i want suggestions about pricing and stuff cuz thats something i have no clue about and also price per photo blah blah blah all that stuff

www.sternphotography.net

as for the the black suit men with killer pencils i'm not going to claim until i get some money in and kinda stable. maybe one or 2 months. then i'm going to start claiming and going to have to charge accordingly. right now i'm just worried about getting a somewhat good client base until then this is what i'm doing

keep in mind i'm going into this blindfolded so all of ya'lls help is a big appreciation