Printing advice needed.

[BBPhoto]

Hey guys. I'm posting this here because the photo printing forum is pretty dead.

I'm wondering if someone could help me out with my digital image printing. This is something that I have almost zero experience at.

My results thus far are completely unsatisfactory. When printed, my images look dull and subdued compared to the screen image. The best word to describe the overall tone of the prints would be 'muddy'. Despite a multitude of attempts to sharpen and/or brighten the image prior to printing, I have yet to produce a nice looking print.

I work in Lightroom and do occasional edits in Photo Shop CS3. I have tried printing on my HP all in one (not absolutely ideal), high volume discount printers (Costco type places) and one test at a professional print shop. All methods produced very similar results. Any practical advice that anyone could offer would be more than appreciated.

[D Thompson]

Which color space are you using? sRGB or AdobeRGB?

[DonSchap]

I'd go even further and ask is you've done any color management to speak of? If your reply is: What are you talking about? ... then we really need to discuss a few things.

When the images your camera takes don't match what comes out on the print ... then you have some color management issues that need addressing. There are several ways to go about this, ranging from the Adobe Gamut method used to quickly align your particular monitor to downloadable profiles from the manufacturer, for your particular printer.

The idea is to try and get everything (all colors and tones) to look as close to the original as possible. You can doctor the image, later ... but you need consistancy to even get that "doctoring" from one place successfully to the next.

If you are using Adobe Photoshop CS3 ... we will have a good place to start getting this straightened out. If you have something less for post processing ... it will be just a bit harder.

Just for proper display purposes, you then will need to calibrate your monitor with either a PANTONE Huey (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/419940-REG/Pantone_MEU101_Huey_Colorimeter.html) Colorimeter device, a X-Rite Eye One Display2 Colorimeter (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/465156-REG/Xrite_EODIS2_Eye_One_Display_2.html), or a X-Rite Eye One Photo LT Spectrophotometer (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/484459-REG/Xrite_EOPLT_Eye_One_Photo.html). Each device has its cost, ranging from about $75 for the Huey, to around $289 for the Colorimeter device and then it's about $600 for the entry level Spectrophotometer kit after a $200 rebate.

What you ask is not simple ... but, when you are done ... what you see ... is what you will get. Isn't that the name of the game?

Please let me know if you are interested in going any further in this discussion and direction. It does get involved ... but, definitely doable. :)

[BBPhoto]

Dennis, Don, - Thanks for the replies.

To answer your question Dennis, my photos are generally RAW so they do not have an embedded color profile. It is interesting to note that when I print directly from the Lightroom print module or output to Jpeg (using an sRGB profile) before printing, the printed results are pretty much the same. I will paste some info about how Lightroom handles color management below.

To answer your questions Don, I am somewhat familiar with color management but have little real life experience dealing with it... or at least not enough to figure this out :o

As for my monitors, I generally use an LCD for my day to day stuff and I have a CRT on my desktop system that I have used on occasion with my photos, usually to have a means of comparison. I do not own a monitor calibration device but I did have a friend come over with his unit (which is a Spyder2 is memory serves me right) and we experimented with monitor calibration. At the end of the day I noticed a small difference but nothing significant enough to correct the difference between what I saw and what I got.

My setup when printing at home right now is to let my printer handle color management. I have no custom color profiles to use at this time. Would I be correct in saying that if I bring my lab digital images that were output using sRGB that the lab should use the embedded color profile from the file for output? Am I also correct that Adobe gamma is not ideal for calibrating an LCD monitor?

Here is the color management information from Lightroom:

Lightroom simplifies color management in your photographic work-flow. You don’t need to choose color settings or color profiles until you are ready to output your photos. To take advantage of Lightroom color management, you need to calibrate your computer monitor so that you are viewing accurate color. See Calibrate and profile your monitor.

Color spaces, color profiles, and tonal response curves
It’s not necessary for you to understand how Lightroom manages color internally, but the following information may be useful in your work-flow.

A color space describes a range or gamut of colors. Various devices in your photographic work-flow have different color gamuts in which they can record, store, edit, and output photos. A color profile defines a color space so that Lightroom knows how to manage and convert colors in your photo.

Raw photo files generally don’t have embedded color profiles. For raw files, the Develop module assumes a wide color space based on the color values of the ProPhoto RGB color space. ProPhoto RGB encompasses most colors that cameras can record.

A color profile is also defined by a gamma value, or more accurately, its tonal response curve. The tonal response curve defines how tonal values in the raw image are mapped. To provide useful information in the histogram and RGB value display, Lightroom assumes a gamma value of approximately 2.2. More accurately, it uses a tonal response curve similar to the tonal response curve of the sRGB color space.

While Lightroom uses a tonal response curve to provide information for the histogram and RGB values, it manipulates the raw data before it is tone mapped. Working in this linear gamma avoids many of the artifacts that can result in working with a tone-mapped image.

The Library module stores previews in the Adobe RGB color space. These previews are also used when printing in draft mode.

For rendered files such as TIFF, JPEG, and PSD files, Lightroom uses the image’s embedded color profile to display the image, histogram, and color values. If the image doesn’t have a profile, Lightroom assumes the sRGB profile, and the image may not look as expected on your monitor.

Output color profiles
When you print a photo in Lightroom, you can choose to convert the colors to more closely match the color space of the printer, paper, and ink you are using. For information on working with printer color profiles, see Set print color management.

Lightroom automatically exports images in the Slideshow and Web modules using the sRGB profile so that the color looks good on the majority of computer monitors.

[AdamW]

If you're printing in Lightroom or Photoshop, then don't let the printer manage color, have the Adobe application do it. More importantly, don't let BOTH do it, or results will be bad.

[BBPhoto]

Hey Adam. Thanks very much for your advice. There is fairly little to worry about in Lightroom with regards to color management as far as I can tell. You basically have two choices, being to let the printer handle color management or use a custom profile. Other than that, there is a rendering intent selection that gives you two choices, those being perceptual or relative. I am not sure why that is but my suspicion is that it is because Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB as it's color space and the range it allows is outside the capacity of many print devices. I think it gives you the option of choosing what to do with the out of gamut colors. Once again though, that's just my suspicion.

The thing that really leaves me scratching my head about all of this is that I can well understand a problem occurring if my color management options were off but I am getting strange results when handing off an image to a third party the uses the embedded color profile for printing. What I produce on my printer or get back from company x are pretty much the same.

Thanks again for your help.

[D Thompson]

If you're printing in Lightroom or Photoshop, then don't let the printer manage color, have the Adobe application do it. More importantly, don't let BOTH do it, or results will be bad.

I agree totally with that.

I don't have Lightroom, so I'm not sure of how it affects the print itself.

Like you, I only shoot RAW but when I convert in ACR to open in CS3 I have it set to use the AdobeRGB space. I assume that Lightroom does something similar? You may want to try converting to sRGB before saving to print. Some labs want sRGB. I try to do all my work in AdobeRGB and then convert as one of the last steps.

Follow this http://digitaldog.net/tips/ and at the top left you will see a printer test file to download. There are also several good articles here. I d/l the file and printed and adjusted my lcd to the print. It's cheap, relatively easy, and while not perfect - it gets me close enough that what I see on lcd is pretty close to prints. There's gonna be a difference due to the fact that the light is coming from opposite directions (print - frontlit, lcd - backlit).

Just my .02 - I wouldn't waste my time with Adobe Gamma. In fact, it doesn't even ship with CS3 so that should tell you something.

Hope some of this helps.

[DonSchap]

Well, everyone can probably appreciate these email mailing list addresses:

Color Theory: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/colortheory/

colorSync: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo/colorsync-users

black and white: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/

Epson: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/

HP: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HP-inkjet/

Canon: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers/

Questions answered ... just sit down, write them up and post 'em

[DonSchap]

Tips for better monitor profiles


Warm up the monitor for at least 30 minutes
Set your desktop to neutral gray
use gamma 2.2
Use D65 (6500K) white point
DeGauss your CRT before calibrating and profiling
Calibrate and profile ideally every two weeks


There are four usual conditions for using profiles:

no profile - use printer to manage colors
canned profile - the ones that come with the printer
downloaded profiles - these come from the paper manufacturer (use paper that is designed for the printer from its manufacturer ... no mixing it up, I don't care how cheap that brand paper was. That means: HP-paper on HP printers, EPSON-paper on EPSON printers, Canon-paper on Canon printers ... on and on.)
custom profile (usually the best choice and provides the most accurate reflection of what your printer and its current inks are capable of) - print the patch profile ... i1 RGB 1.5.tif. ALLOW THIS PRINT OUT TO DRY AT LEAST 24-HOURS BEFORE DOING THE PROFILE ON IT. Use the X-Rite EyeOne Photo LT Spectrometer to do the calibration and profile on your printer.



Of course, the Custom Printer Profile should result in the most accurate print out your printer can do with your image.

So, Profile the monitor shoot your images in AdobeRGB color manage with AdobeRGB as you colorspace in Photoshop Custom Profile your printer with a Spectrometer, if you can ... if not, use the most recent profiles downloads from the paper manufacturer's webpage. Update the drivers for your printer, if needed. Eyeball the results of your image to screen or camera LCD

Remember to consider the lighting conditions you are viewing in (sunlight, incandescent, fluorescent, candlelight?)

Who knows, this might actually help ... :rolleyes:

[BBPhoto]

Thanks again for your replies, particularly Don. I'm sure you didn't write those replies in 30 seconds or less.

Despite my tweaks, I'm no further ahead now than I was before. I just ordered a Colorvision Spyder2 Suite calibration kit in the case that something went awry with my friend's unit. I know that the Spyder gets mixed reviews but I figure it's better than nothing and I could always return it if it doesn't do the trick. I'll be sure to keep you posted on my progress or if there's a 'eureka' moment.

- Norm.