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View Full Version : 400D vs 20D/30D..



Merlin
08-25-2007, 10:37 PM
Hi Hi!

It's been awhile since i've posted here, but uhh yeah, hi!

Anyways, almost a year ago now I bought a 400D kit, and I've been loving it - to an extent.

I say to an extent because of the size of the body, and, well the kit lens isn't really that great.

So recently I've been looking at how much I could sell the 400D kit for, and then how much to buy a 20D and perhaps a 50 f/1.4 or a Tamron 17-50 f/2.8 would be. However, now I'm not really sure if Its worth the trouble, and if I'd be better off spending money on a new lens.

So -- I'm looking for advice and info from you guys. :p

I also went into a shop to hold the 30D the other day, and boy oh boy is it nice and comfy in the hands - and the wheel. :p

I'm going to China in october of this year, so I don't think I'd be making any swaps or selling anything too soon, so would it be worth waiting for the release of the 40D and waiting for even more price drops etc.?

Cheers,
Merlin.

DonSchap
08-25-2007, 10:45 PM
Look, as much as you may enjoy having all the bells and whistles of the 40D, conservatively speaking, you can enjoy most of what it offers with a reconditioned 20D or even a new 30D, as the price dips. Why get pasted for an expensive camera body that has been effectively "whomped" right out of the starting gate, by the Nikon D300?

I say wait until the next revision of the Canon Semi-pro ... perhaps the 50D, before dumping extra money into the camera body. Even your 400D provides a lot of what you are going to get. You are much better off investing in better glass, than upgrading the body, anyway.

It's your call, though ... and just my opinion. :)

Merlin
08-25-2007, 10:57 PM
Thanks Don.

I actually meant waiting for the 40D to be released so that the 20D/30D would be cheaper second hand. :p

DonSchap
08-25-2007, 11:27 PM
Thanks Don.

I actually meant waiting for the 40D to be released so that the 20D/30D would be cheaper second hand. :p


I know ... I just wanted to take another swipe at Canon for pulling up short. :D

Or givin' the nod to Nikon, for going long. :eek:

timmciglobal
08-25-2007, 11:28 PM
If you can pickup a 30D under 800 I'd do it.

The 40D ISO samples don't impress me that much and I think the great sell-off won't happen (akin to the 20d>30D where it took quite a while for 20d price to drop far and stay down)

20D still a great camera and as cheap as 600 is a real steal.

Tim

BBPhoto
08-26-2007, 08:39 AM
Many people who find the XTI body size a problem use the optional battery grip. It seems to satisfy many people but I didn't like the grip personally. The 30D is definitely a worthy replacement for the XTI. If you are set on doing it, then waiting a while or doing it immediately will make little difference. Whatever impact the release of the 40D (and others) will or has already had on the sale price of the 20D & 30D will also reflect in what you will be able to get for the XTI. It's really six of one or half a dozen of the other. Good luck.

Speed2
08-26-2007, 11:00 AM
I know ... I just wanted to take another swipe at Canon for pulling up short. :D

Or givin' the nod to Nikon, for going long. :eek:

Since ur investment can easily be in the lenses what do u do, kinda caught between a rock and hard place. Can't interchange them between nikon and canon.

pagnamenta
08-26-2007, 11:51 AM
If you're not happy with the size, you could invest in a battery grip. If you're not happy with the kit lens, buy some better glass. If everything else the 400D offers satisfies you, then there's no need to change bodies.

I believe the 20/30D is better than the 400D in terms of build quality and ergonomics, but the kit lens is going to look the same on all three cameras. Upgrade your glass first and maybe get a 40D in a year, or when you can afford.

griptape
08-26-2007, 04:50 PM
+1 for the battery grip. I wouldn't ever use my camera without it now. Vertical shutter release is a god send.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m235/nothingisworking/BatteryGrip1.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m235/nothingisworking/BatteryGrip2.jpg

And it can be had for $90 WITH 2 extra batteries included (and gives you the option to use AA's).
http://www.amazon.com/Opteka-Grip-Vertical-XT-Batteries/dp/B000G3KLPA/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-2202574-7726306?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1188168620&sr=8-1

Vich
08-26-2007, 05:53 PM
$.02

XTi has a later sensor and AF system. To me; the jury's out if 20/30 D is a step up in that sense.

The wheel and build are nice but the Grip reputedly fixes the too-small issue and the build isn't THAT big an issue (the XTi isn't exactly built like junk either).

I believe 30D -> 40D is a much larger step than 20D -> 30D; it's more like the XT -> XTi. IF it doesn't have some recall-worth problem (like Mark III's AF), I would fully expect it to push the 30D into the sub $700 used range quickly, and the 20D to follow a similar path as the 10D did (a gradual 3 year slide to $350 used), staying about $200 lower than 30D.

Lastly; Kit Lens is a bigger problem than XTi build. Get a used XTi Grip plus maybe used 17-55 IS. It'll hold it's resale far better than a 30D body.

Glasstream15
08-26-2007, 06:19 PM
First off, the 40D DID NOT get "WHOMPED" by that overpriced Nikon. They are not the same class, not with nearly 40% price difference. Get over it Don, different targets.

Second, spend the cash on glass. Much more of an improvement in IQ available that way. I can carry my XT with 18-200 and 430EX all day comfortably. Just have to find a good way to balance it all. And I have fairly large hands and the XT grip is fine. Lens in the left hand, camera in the right. Anything longer than about a 90 equivalent should be held that way anyhow.

Wait until the 40D actually hits the streets and see how it fairs. Far better than Don thinks I'd be willing to bet. And if you buy some good lenses for the XTi, later on if you upgrade to another crop sensor camera, you take them with you. And meanwhile, you have had the use of more and better lenses.

YMMV

Speed2
08-26-2007, 07:16 PM
If you're not happy with the size, you could invest in a battery grip. If you're not happy with the kit lens, buy some better glass. If everything else the 400D offers satisfies you, then there's no need to change bodies.

I believe the 20/30D is better than the 400D in terms of build quality and ergonomics, but the kit lens is going to look the same on all three cameras. Upgrade your glass first and maybe get a 40D in a year, or when you can afford.

Its not just build quality and ergonomics pagnamenta, not by far. And the statement of the kit lenses looking the same on all 3 cameras is not true either.
That would be like saying the only difference between the 30d and the
Canon 1D Mk II is the crop factor.

DonSchap
08-26-2007, 08:35 PM
First off, the 40D DID NOT get "WHOMPED" by that overpriced Nikon. They are not the same class, not with nearly 40% price difference. Get over it Don, different targets.

Second, spend the cash on glass. Much more of an improvement in IQ available that way. I can carry my XT with 18-200 and 430EX all day comfortably. Just have to find a good way to balance it all. And I have fairly large hands and the XT grip is fine. Lens in the left hand, camera in the right. Anything longer than about a 90 equivalent should be held that way anyhow.

Wait until the 40D actually hits the streets and see how it fairs. Far better than Don thinks I'd be willing to bet. And if you buy some good lenses for the XTi, later on if you upgrade to another crop sensor camera, you take them with you. And meanwhile, you have had the use of more and better lenses.

YMMV

Even Don doesn't know what Don thinks half of the time, as the message continually changes just as information is processed and considered. It is a work in progress (WIP) ... just like Canon's prosumer line of cameras. I figure one day even they might get it right, but with this absolute refusal to incorporate the much needed IS into the body ... I am just not being impressed.

Frankly, I don't really care what Nikon does ... it doesn't affect my photography in the least. They are working on producing cameras that excel in their own regard, according to you, 'Glasstream15', and that is all well and good. :) Canon should have NOTHING to fear from the Nikon D300 and I'm certain the buying public is right there with you on this, to say nothing of the Photography journals that evaluate cameras.

Canon EOS 40D ... Nikon D300 ... nope, no comparison can be drawn. NEXT!

My concerns deal directly with an upgrade for an improvement in what I can do with my current camera body and its system of lenses. There is not enough substantial difference between the thirty-six month old Canon EOS 20D and the not-yet-released EOS 40D to do much more than just empty my wallet of discretionary spending, this year. That loose money would be much better spent in improving any glass I may have missed (non-IS-equipped), such as the TS-E 45mm or TS-E 90mm for architectural photography. Not worrying about if I can flip the shutter an additional 1.5x a second or use 14-bit over 12-bit RAW ... when I usually don't even shoot RAW!

I'm out to enjoy my photography ... and if a $400 refurbished 8.2MP 20D can do the job over a brand new $1300 10.1MP 40D ... I figure that's another $900 going to the glassware. I can wait ... considering the alternative ... of which their really isn't that much, at this time.

I said (for those not getting this in their hearing aid) "Give me the camera I want ... not what you are trying to foist on me."

At least I "think" I do. :rolleyes:

Speed2
08-26-2007, 09:03 PM
I'm out to enjoy my photography ... and if a $400 refurbished 8.2MP 20D can do the job over a brand new $1300 10.1MP 40D ... I figure that's another $900 going to the glassware. I can wait ... considering the alternative ... of which their really isn't that much, at this time.

I said (for those not getting this in their hearing aid) "Give me the camera I want ... not what you are trying to foist on me."

At least I "think" I do. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]



Grumpy old fart with a sense of humor...lol. Gotta agree with u though... I'll give Momma my 30d and i'll get the 40d. Gonna have to get a loan from richny though. Think he'll make me pay it back anytime soon? haha

Glasstream15
08-27-2007, 05:14 AM
Don, comparing the 40D to the D300 which costs almost 40% more is sorta like comparing the D300 to the 5D which cost just over 30% more. They are not comparable.

As far as inbody IS, I think both Canon and Nikon have answered that very loudly NO! You might as well switch to Oly if you want it.

I too wish they'd build what I want. S5 size, 10 to 400 equivalent zoom at no slower than f2, 10 FPS for 100 shots, 1000 shots on a battery, lens interchangeable with a 50 to 600 and a 1000 available too, 2 1/4 inch square 40 MP sensor so I can crop however I want, and sell it for no more than the 40D. And I'll get that about the same time that Canon and Nikon put IS in body.

And when the replacement for the XTi comes along, I doubt if I will be so overwhelmed by it that I will replace my XT. The XT works, and the lenses are the true determining factor so I see no real need to upgrade. Especially since I don't live in VA and didn't win the Power-Ball so I don't have a couple extra million to throw around.

I think I'll just go downtown in The Most Beautiful City in The United States and take some pictures with my obsolete equipment.

DonSchap
08-27-2007, 07:00 AM
If you are going to sit back and just accept what these clowns parse out ... then you deserve what you get.

The buying public has the REAL POWER and it's called MONEY! Canon and Nikon want their chunk of your change ... and I'm not giving it up until they give me what I want in return. It's really just that simple.


"PUT Image Stabilization IN THE BODY ... TOO!"

Not one or the other ... but BOTH types. Make all glass that is mounted as good as it can get. That's my gripe and I also say ... "SNAP TO IT, I'M WAITING. TIME IS MONEY."

We all know the introduction of the EOS 40D was stalled when Nikon released the D40. So it becomes too little, too late. Just sell the initial inventory of 40D's until Christmas, but get the EOS 50D IS out there ... with a bigger sensor. ;)

What say you to: "Let's go take some pictures!" :D

Rooz
08-27-2007, 07:11 AM
the buying public has also voiced their opinion. there are IS equipped bodies out there and people aren't voting with their wallets by buying them in droves. canon has just put IS in their kit lens and nikon's launch had slides referring to how much better in-lens IS is than in-body. clear messages.

you bought the alpha which has in body IS that you rave about, you already have a 20d which you are happy with aswell. you have a shitload of lens'. exactly how many bodies and lens' can one man have or rather...does one man need ?

Glasstream15
08-27-2007, 07:52 AM
What say you to: "Let's go take some pictures!"

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!!!!

DonSchap
08-27-2007, 07:55 AM
Look, I accumulate stuff. Heck, I've got two working computers and calculators that are older than half the people on this website. No, I'm not running the Smithsonian, but I tend to maintain and hold on to that which I purchase. I still use very modern equipment for most of my work, but the fact is ... if it ain't broke, I don't throw it out. It goes into storage for ... the Dark Times ... when the Empire loses absolute power.

I just went through a weekend of no Internet, no telephone, no cable TV ... luckily, we had power to the house, but none of the surrounding area did ... so external support was ... well, we was just plumb cut off! :eek: We had all the equipment and nothing feeding it. It all was kind of useless.

A good analogy is you're out driving your Lamborghini (Oh yeah, like this is going happen real soon) ...


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on the expressway, in a traffic jam. Oh yeah, lots of gas is being consumed, by lots of people, but you're not going ANYWHERE! But hey, you know every swiggin' ... uh, well, guy, is going to be lookin' at you ... feeling boss in your shiny and powerful ... parking stall occupant.

To be perfectly honest, I have not subscribed to the "throw-away society", because I have worked some long hours, plus I have looked long and hard to get what I have. Yes, I do have some glass ... nothing spectacular, but enough to have a dandy choice when I take on an image shoot.

You may ask (or may not): "Don, are you planning on accumulating more?"

The short answer is: "Yes"

The little longer response is: "He who has the most toys at the end of his life ... WINS!" :D :p

Turn
08-27-2007, 08:18 AM
I like your humor Don and its good that you realize that if your current camera does the job then why upgrade the body when some fine glass can do more.

I plan to get one camera (either the D80 or 40D or whatever is next from the 400D..)

and stick with it for most of my life (I've always been a man on a budget...wait I'm only 18...)

I guess what I'm saying is; those with 20D's, 350D's and thinking of upgrading, have you guys really thought; holy shit maybe I could spend my hard earned cash on some nice lens which will give me 30000mm f1.2 fish-eye-adjustable double ND filter for the same amount as a brand spanking new Nikon D300.

or why not just save up for a hassleblad :D

but yeh..will the 40D have the same effect that the digital rebel did but for those with a tad deeper pockets?? I kinda think so but I'm definitely not going to be one of the people waiting outside at midnight

I just wish Canon would kick themselves in the nuts.

Rhys
08-27-2007, 09:26 AM
I have a 350D and a 30D.The 30D is better in many ways including, I feel, image quality.

So... your call, really.

Personally.... I would not blow money on new cameras. Instead I would get the battery grip for the 400D just in case you need to run it on AA batteries. I would also get some decent Canon glass. For China I would suggest: 10-22, 17-85 IS and 70-200 f4 IS.

Glasstream15
08-27-2007, 09:27 AM
The little longer response is: "He who has the most toys at the end of his life ... WINS!"


No Don. It's "He who has the most toys at the end of his life ... is still dead! But had a good time while it lasted!!!"

DonSchap
08-27-2007, 10:17 AM
Hey, it's ALL coming with me.

So, when I walk up to the "big guy" and aim my EOS 20D at him for a candid ...

28014

I just know I'm going to hear:

"Why didn't Canon ever put IS in that darn pro-sumer?"

To which, of course, I'll reply:

"Lord, I did try to tell them. I swear! They just wouldn't listen ..."

"So what's new?" he'll probably say, but then again, I shouldn't suppose to know the mind of ... Minolta. :rolleyes:

Speed2
08-27-2007, 11:02 AM
Hey, it's all coming with me.

So, when I walk up to the "big guy" and aim my EOS 20D at him for a candid ...



I just know I'm going to hear:

"Why didn't Canon ever put IS in that darn pro-sumer?"

To which, of course, I'll reply:

"Lord, I did try to tell them. I swear!"



Take a tripod with u cause u ain't getting the in-body is. By the time u get up there in-body is won't help anyways, as we get older our hands aren't as steady as they used to be.:p

BBPhoto
08-27-2007, 12:33 PM
Hey, it's ALL coming with me.

So, when I walk up to the "big guy" and aim my EOS 20D at him for a candid ...

28014

I just know I'm going to hear:

"Why didn't Canon ever put IS in that darn pro-sumer?"

To which, of course, I'll reply:

"Lord, I did try to tell them. I swear! They just wouldn't listen ..."

"So what's new?" he'll probably say, but then again, I shouldn't suppose to know the mind of ... Minolta. :rolleyes:


Another amusing post Don. I last visited the Sistine chapel in 2000. It should be on everyone's travel destination list.

An interesting tidbit about the image that you posted, Michaelangelo's 'Creation' is that there is a large community that believes the image of God is depicted within a mid-sagittal section of the human brain. This is to say that Michaelangelo was poking his paintbrush into the eye of the Catholic church by suggesting that God is a creation of man's mind.

Anyway, sorry for sidetracking the thread but I'm a big fan of Michaelangelo. I bet he could put IS in a Canon body for you ;)

FLiPMaRC
08-27-2007, 12:59 PM
LMAO!!!@Don :D

Jalva22
08-27-2007, 02:09 PM
Don, you're amazing! I love what you wrote about not buying into the "throw away society." I give mega-kudos to Canon, Nikon, Oly and the others who have kept the reliability of their bodies so high. Not very many electronics-based goods out there that are still worth a crap two years after purchase. Disposable printers, microsoft products that continually crash & burn, dvd players that routinely pop up the fatal error message a week after warranty runs out.

I, too, subscribe to the old Depression-era axiom: Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without! Off to watch some taped football from last season on my tivo.... oh wait, it cratered last month after 10 months of usage.....

DonSchap
08-27-2007, 02:44 PM
Chinese manufacturing. Realized high profits off of cheaply manufactured goods, while charging a quality product price. My feeling is that companies who engage in this kind of deception are "NAFTA pirates." They clearly violate the intent of the agreement for quick gain by literally lying to the buying public ("Oh, you thought we made it here, didn't you?"). If ever there was a time for "BUYER BEWARE", it is now.

Unless we catch this new wave of manufacturing with a serious effort at Quality Control, we're all in for one hell of a wild ride ... be it cameras, televisions, other appliances or ... dare I say it, baby toys!

The critical inspection of imported goods from China is becoming a serious National Issue, because most of the stuff we use these days is not even made in this country ... nor could you get it here, if you wanted it. That means the health and reliability of construction controls are serious reduced, if not eliminated altogether.

Who loses? Ultimately, WE, the consumer, do. All the work that was done by the workers unions, state and federal agencies has been effectively neutralized by opening our market to Chinese (and other foriegn suppliers) infiltration and migration. They are not restricted by the same kind of industrial controls we have in place in the United States and therefore are allowed to use substandard processes to create goods, food (both human and pets) and BABY TOYS!

This is not a call to arms, but a call to attention. The "sleeping giant' is being overrun ... and it is your duty to wake up and smell the Columbian coffee! :eek: The infrastructure failures we are seeing these days are because the proper care and repair has not been done. Heck, the people who built over half of the infrastructure in this country are long since gone. If we continue to fail to pay attention ... many more will suffer.

Some things need to be reversed and quite quickly, before all the work that was done to make our country a safe, clean and trustworthy place to live and raise your children is reduced back to pre-1900 ... back to a level of the third-world countries we have always frowned upon for allowing this reduced quality to even exist there.

Aw, I digress ... I guess because I am concerned. :o

We are all photographers, here. We can graphically demonstrate problems and make our representative cognizant of the problem, either using the Internet or the US Postal Service. If you see a perceived problem, document it. Not everything is a pretty flower. MACRO the cracks in that bridge next to you.

Obviously, we're not experts ... but they have the experts on staff to make the corrections. Call them on it.
I suggest we make these people earn the money that we fork out every year (income tax and roadway taxes, gasoline taxes, tire excize taxes, license fees, title fees, city stickers ... the list goes on and on.) by holding them accountable.

The cardinal rule: EXPECT WHAT YOU INSPECT ... anything less, and you don't know what you're getting.