The Canon-groin kick!

[DonSchap]

Oh, today's announcement had to hurt. Talk about taking it to 'em good!

I can just see Andy Parmley dancing around St. Louis ... waving his hands in the air and shouting, "Yes! Yes! I bought Nikon lenses!"

A bigger, faster sensor than the 10.1 ... two killer DSLR cameras, boldly priced higher than the Canon alternatives. Man, this was an awesome move on Nikon's part ... and should be recognized as "Check" on the playing board.

Will SONY say, "Mate?", when their camera is released ... with IS built in, too?

Oh, thank goodness we all dumped our stock, last week, huh? Someone is going to lose a substantial foothold, big time ... or I should say, "more like a foot to the goodie locker!"



27898
Nikon gets Canon's attention, on the playing field, with a quick
and well-placed size 12.3!


Someone get a picture! :eek: OUCH!!!

[fionndruinne]

I find it interesting that Canon seems to have "focused" on manual focus with the included split-focus screens and what-not on the 40D (whoops, almost typed "D40" there:D), whereas Nikon's new sensor-AF stuff is aimed at better AF performance. Almost seems like Canon's going backwards...

[jcon]

LMAO... hillarious Don...just hillarious!:D

[Nickcanada]

I was thinking of buying an old manual focus SLR for fun... now all I gotta do is buy a 40D and some screens..... I would probably be better off with the SLR eh?:o

Naw, I'm actually just as excited about the 40D it's every thing I asked for except ISO 6400. And at a reasonable price... well it's less then my other options.

But lets not count our chickens yet! Just look at the Mk III focus fiasco! One wrong line of code somewhere in those new 40d, D300 etc. and it's a different ball game!


That's it where is that Kodak T-Max film and that pentax ME- super I've got my eyes on!:D

[BBPhoto]

I'm actually really interested in the split screen on the 40D to aid in manual focusing. I picked up some really nice M42 mount glass on the (really, really) cheap that I use with an M42 - EOS adaptor. I really have a hard time focusing manually on the XTI because there is no split screen so the glass doesn't get much use. With the 40D I'll finally be able to use that glass to it's full potential. Some of the Meyer-Optik stuff is just fantastic. I have one Lentar lens that has 9 aperture blades. Smoooth...

Don, this board wouldn't be the same without you. Keep em' coming.

[DonSchap]

You think my remarks are something ... there are fist fights going on over at POTN ... with this news. Remarks like "Who got pwned, today!' and such.

It's funny how people are so defensive about a camera that hasn't even proved anything, yet. Neither one has been offered for open evaluation ... that we know of.

I just like the storylines ... because these secret releases were so unnecessary ... and just ticked a lot of folks off, for no valid reason. If someone actually got their hands on one ... BEFORE the official announcement, that would be marketworthy and pretty funny, too. What a marketing coup, in fact.

Anyway ... you want to read some silly scrapping with a bunch of Canon guys arguing about Nikon stuff they know only scraps about ... head on over. It's hilarious reading. :D

[No Control]

I just like the storylines

I agree Don. It's like a soap opera for camera geeks. :D

"It was you along wasn't it, D300?"
"Oh yes, 40D, it was!"

:eek::D:p

[TheObiJuan]

LOL, it's funny to sit back and watch some internet gear heads get all worked up.
If they spent half the amount of time shooting and honing their skills as they do bickering and boasting, they might actually shoot something worth a damn!

[Rooz]

You think my remarks are something ... there are fist fights going on over at POTN ... with this news. Remarks like "Who got pwned, today!' and such.

what a pack of complete tossers.

[TheObiJuan]

where is Parm, haven't seen him post about the exciting Nikon news on this forum yet....
:confused:

[GaryS]

where is Parm, haven't seen him post about the exciting Nikon news on this forum yet....
:confused:

I think he is out shooting! :)

[No Control]

LOL, it's funny to sit back and watch some internet gear heads get all worked up.
If they spent half the amount of time shooting and honing their skills as they do bickering and boasting, they might actually shoot something worth a damn!

Absolutely! It's exactly like people who argue about music but never bother to actually go to shows. That one ticks me off.

[Nickcanada]

Absolutely! It's exactly like people who argue about music but never bother to actually go to shows. That one ticks me off.

You're into The Backstreet Boys aren't you. That Joey was a great dancer... ahhh, Joey....:cool:

[T06]

Wow. Been busy & come back to this, great news for all & a funny post too. Thats it, anyone want a D200 with old lenses(coldy I'm allowed to spell it this way this time;)):D

[No Control]

You're into The Backstreet Boys aren't you. That Joey was a great dancer... ahhh, Joey....:cool:

Absolutely! They're in my stereo now, right next to Bad Religion (http://www.purevolume.com/badreligion) and The Unseen (http://www.purevolume.com/theunseen). :p

[Speed2]

Anyway ... you want to read some silly scrapping with a bunch of Canon guys arguing about Nikon stuff they know only scraps about ... head on over. It's hilarious reading. :D[/QUOTE]




I think if u do the count u might find theres more nikon guys in there then canon guys:confused:

[DonSchap]

Oh ... this just has to hurt. :rolleyes:

This Nikon D300 camera body is so far beyond what we thought it's just scary that Canon actually waited 1/2 a year, like it did, to release the EOS 40D.

They must've just buried that Marketing VP next to the tomb of the unknown unknown guy.

When I joined the DCRP, I had no idea that 2007 was going to be this much fun. Canon-glass is going to be so cheap, in the coming months, you should be able to get anything for a 1/3-off as people dump their stuff and head over to the Nikon camp.

Nikon-glass, on the other fist, is going to be rarer than hen's teeth, if the surge starts.

Wow, huh? :eek: The "groin kick" is really getting some serious notice!

[TheObiJuan]

The D3 ISO 3200 and ISO 6400 shots left me speechless.
I compared them to the A700 just for giggles and realized where Sony stands and where the D300 likely will stand.

[Rooz]

Oh ... this just has to hurt. :rolleyes:

This Nikon D300 camera body is so far beyond what we thought it's just scary that Canon actually waited 1/2 a year, like it did, to release the EOS 40D.

They must've just buried that Marketing VP next to the tomb of the unknown unknown guy.

When I joined the DCRP, I had no idea that 2007 was going to be this much fun. Canon-glass is going to be so cheap, in the coming months, you should be able to get anything for a 1/3-off as people dump their stuff and head over to the Nikon camp.

Nikon-glass, on the other fist, is going to be rarer than hen's teeth, if the surge starts.

Wow, huh? :eek: The "groin kick" is really getting some serious notice!

the d300 is still an unknown performer though. the handling was always gonna be great. the specs were always great...so what did that preview tell us we didn;t already know ? the performance is now what matters. and i'm not talking iso6400 performance. i couldn't give a rats ass about that. i;m talking it's proper photography performance.

not sure canon will be too worried to be honest. the 40d is significantly cheaper than the d300. that in itself will drive its sales. besides which the d200 has always dominated the 30d and 5d for sales, so i don;t expect much will change. if anything i expect the 40d to improve on the foundations the 20d/30d already set up purely based on price.

the D3 for sure, i agree. thats gonna rattle the 1D sales, no question.

[Franklin]

Don, ranting is fun aint it?

Rant on Canon about not having in body IS
Rant on Canon by being eclipsed by Nikon cameras not even available

Now for the realistic questions (brace yourself)

The price of a comparable Sony lens eclipses any Nikon/Canon offering with IS/VR (eclipses as in bankrobbery needed). The availability of Sony glass after introduction is abysmal.

Now if you give good advice, wouldn't you advise someone to look at a Nikon camera with superior VR in lenses and save him a lot of cash? Or Canon if that's your liking... why Sony? The price argument is shot out of the water by the ludicrous lens pricing.

On Canon-Nikon:

Is there a compelling reason to drop Canon if you are a canonista? Is the body so inferior? I learnt it was the Photographer>>>>Glass>Body that matters, in that order.

I use a D80 with extreme satisfaction and might upgrade to the D300 *drool*... but I had to use a 30D for a month and in no way did I feel handicapped, in fact in some ways it was much better than my Nikon.

So now we have an improved 40D (Viewfinder improvement make it a notch above marginal imho) for a very decent price. Will the difference between the D300 and 40D be big enough to cause Canon users to drop their expensive stuff and bank on Nikon?

Realistically: I doubt it very much.

Next Question: Will this cause new users to pick Nikon?

A few for sure, but the Price of the D300 is not for starters. Canon has the 400D, Sony the A100, wich are at their price the most advanced offerings. Nikon is lagging at that price point featurewise, wich tends to sway newbies.

A safe bet: sales of Nikon will pick up, but Canon won't have a dramatic drop...

Sony? if they deliver in quantities and finally bring affordable lensen in sufficient will grow.

Why no real loser: the dSLR market will keep on growing as people grow out of Compacts. But the real money is at the low end and there are no changes at that playing field.

So sorry Don, I expect very happy faces at Canon and no tears.

[achuang]

Canon has the 400D, Sony the A100, wich are at their price the most advanced offerings. Nikon is lagging at that price point featurewise, wich tends to sway newbies.




Nikon have the D80 which is in the same league as those two and is by no means lagging featurewise.

[DonSchap]

The A100 has been discontinued ... for lack of parts. They ran their series of sensors and are not making more of them.

I'm not making this up ... take a look at Alphatracks ... the officially sanctioned SONY blog.

http://alphatracks.com/archives/category/sony-dslr/ (http://alphatracks.com/archives/category/sony-dslr/)


The A700 is now the new and only bottom camera ... until an A100 replacement comes along.

So ... things change. :rolleyes:

[Franklin]

Nikon have the D80 which is in the same league as those two and is by no means lagging featurewise.

It is not in the same league....
- price of a d80 is 800 Euros, an 400D is 600Euro, a 30D is 800 Euro. Price wise it competes squarely against a 30D and that comparison isn't favorably.
-whereas the Canon and Sony are filled with gimmicks, it the Nikon more restrained, but blessed with superior handling (bigger^^).

If anything the D80 is less of a first model than a 400D (its 1/3 more expensive!)

The D80 is imho an older gen now that Nikon (thankfuly) goes to CMOS tech. Because the image qual of my D80 at higher Iso quite simply isn't up to the Canon standard. As you can't always use flash this is a disadvantage.

I am extremely happy with Nikons new products, as the D300 seems to become something wich Canon doesn't have an equivalent of, but if I look at where the sales will be Nikon is still behind. Yes, the D40 is bang for the buck and a much more satisfying ergonomically (and thus the better camera!), but at the low end MP's and gimmicks sell, wich is where Nikon still loses.


To Don,

The statement that the A700 is the only low end cam for Sony is amusing considering it costs 1400$ and isn't shipping to customers yet. If that would become a reality the Sony platform doesn't need to commit seppuku... it would be doa. Considering I take Sony a lot more serious than that I am sure they will keep on catering to the lower end ^^

[Rooz]

2 posts that are both are inflammatory ? seems to me you've just come here to start an argument. why bother ?

[coldrain]

It is not in the same league....
- price of a d80 is 800 Euros, an 400D is 600Euro, a 30D is 800 Euro. Price wise it competes squarely against a 30D and that comparison isn't favorably.
-whereas the Canon and Sony are filled with gimmicks, it the Nikon more restrained, but blessed with superior handling (bigger^^).
If anything the D80 is less of a first model than a 400D (its 1/3 more expensive!)

Huh? The XTi and D80 both compete very clearly feature wise. Of course the also differ in points, but they sure do compete. As does the 30D also compete with the D80.
How on earth are the XTi and 30D filled with gimmicks? The D80 is the one filled with gimmicks... I do not recall either Canon model having in-camera photo editting.
And bigger? The 30D is bigger, and does handle better (how they handle IS a rather personal issue though).


The D80 is imho an older gen now that Nikon (thankfuly) goes to CMOS tech. Because the image qual of my D80 at higher Iso quite simply isn't up to the Canon standard. As you can't always use flash this is a disadvantage.
The D80 is of the same age as the XTi, and newer than the 30D.



I am extremely happy with Nikons new products, as the D300 seems to become something wich Canon doesn't have an equivalent of, but if I look at where the sales will be Nikon is still behind. Yes, the D40 is bang for the buck and a much more satisfying ergonomically (and thus the better camera!), but at the low end MP's and gimmicks sell, wich is where Nikon still loses.
The obvious equivalent to the D300 is the 40D. Again, they do differ in points. But both are of similar size, both have some weather sealing, both have fast FPS performance, both offer 14 bit data, both seem to offer good high ISO performance, both offer live view, etc. etc.
Everyone knows that these to cameras compete.

The 40D is the same ergonomically than the 30D and 20D before it (and the 5D). Of course, there is a little evolution... but the concept is still the same concept. And a very nice concept at that. It remains a mystery why Canon does not upscale this concept of operation to the 1D series.

[Franklin]

2 posts that are both are inflammatory ? seems to me you've just come here to start an argument. why bother ?


Mea Culpa, that is a very good way to be spat upon as nub at a forum *zips*

I just was a tad annoyed about the hossanna stories while my D300 has to wait three months :P

[Rooz]

Mea Culpa, that is a very good way to be spat upon as nub at a forum *zips*

I just was a tad annoyed about the hossanna stories while my D300 has to wait three months :P

no one's spitting here and i didn;t intend to ask you to "zip it". eveyone's opinon is welcome. lol. its just a little unusual to enter a forum and be so argumentative from the get go. wait till you get to double figures and then let loose. :p;)

[Franklin]

How on earth are the XTi and 30D filled with gimmicks?

I meant the xTI (sensor clean, high MP)



The D80 is of the same age as the XTi, and newer than the 30D.


Older sensor tech (and yes, the 30D hardlyy can be called groundbreaking). But image wise the Canon was simply more future proof. It's debatable on al lot of counts, but I find my D80 as end of the line.


And a very nice concept at that. It remains a mystery why Canon does not upscale this concept of operation to the 1D series.

Economy of scale? I'm guessing here, but I would say that the low end is where you get the bucks. This is why gimmicks as sensor shake and high MP counts are introduced at that range (yes, high end has the same high MP count, but there it is a real value, for amateurs 8MP should be plenty).

VR in body worthy... well, Canon seems to betting on cheap IS in lens, I am sure Sigma/Tamron will try to counter it... and Nikon will have to follow if they want to remain competitive at the lower end... at least such says my crystal globe :D

[DonSchap]

Look,

SONY is obvious aiming for a "higher rung" on the ladder, than Samsung or Pentax. They don't have anything to prove, as Minolta was a true competitor and pace-setter for many, many years. Probably before most on here (DCRP) were born.

If they want to terminate the sales of the A100 ... and not invest in it, that's fine. It's not like they are going to go broke doing anything with the market. Cameras are an additional line, in the truest sense of the word, not the primary source of their revenue. Besides, the "G" lenses are not kid-stuff. These lenses rate right alongside if not better than many of the equivalent Canon "L" lenses. They are now creating fully-developed bodies to match the lens' capability and exceed those of the other manufacturers.

Despite what you may be thinking, Japanese-thinking, in this case, is entirely different ... and I suggest you take a closer look at what their business aim really is, instead of what you may think it is. You may suddenly come to terms that what we consider a "smart-move" is not what they do.

I suspect next year's introduction of the Full-Frame may, indeeed, open your eyes. They came to play. :cool: You will definitely have to 'break out your plastic' if you want to appreciate this ride.

[Franklin]

Look,

I suspect next year's introduction of the Full-Frame may, indeeed, open your eyes. They came to play. :cool: You will definitely have to 'break out your plastic' if you want to appreciate this ride.

The rookie bites (sorry, bored at work) :D

Sony is losing on the small personal audio (MP3)
Sony is losing on their Console

Sony isn't in the most healthy state to try and pick a fight on yet another area.

Now Sony, a consumer goods producer will make a profesional full-frame alternative to beat the two established names?

Don, isn't this a little far-fetched?

:confused:

[coldrain]

No, not far fetched... and with novel in-body vignetting (called in-body full frame IS) at that!

[DonSchap]

You know something, it's kind of weird.

Minolta was developing and had proto-typed the 9D Full Frame, waiting for SONY to develop the sensor. They had TAMRON working on a couple lenses ...and then, wham ... the doors shut for a year.

So, here we are, two years later ... TAMRON is making lenses for SONY and SONY is now preparing to announce the Full Frame sensor and all we can get is lip service about "how it won't work" from 'Coldrain'.

How about we just take it for what it is ... and let them release it, next season, for your inspection, Rain-maker? It won't cost you a thing to reserve comment on something that has yet to see light outside the development laboratory.

Ok, for argument's sake ... let's just say it really does work! Then what? Where you going to back-peddal to, then? I really do not believe a multi-billion dollar company is going to allow itself to release a product and subject itself to redicule ... well, okay ... I'll give you the recent Canon- release (Wow, was that a short-sighted screw up). We all know that the A100 was a rush to open the Minolta-market back up, before it was truly lost by people going out and investing in the other camera companies ... and they did a pretty good job considering everything they we facing: "Camera of the Year 2006"

The A900 Pro does not face the same pressure. They can release this camera and literally storm into the market because they have no legacy Full-Frames to respect. Like Nikon, everything is "fresh meat" for the carving ... and with a viable anti-shake in the body ... the lens market requires no new invention. The old quality glass is as good as the new.

After seeing and demonstrating the Vibration Compensation "VC" in the new TAMRON AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical (IF) ... obviously, they are not copying the Canon shimmy-shake method. I do believe it is possible with full-frame, just easier with APS-C ... due to size.

If you vignette ... then, it fails ... but, if it doesn't ... buy one and just ENJOY it. :D

[coldrain]

There has never been any talk about a KM 9D being full frame, Don...
When KM was till a company, talk was about a KM 9D with 10.x mp APS-C sensor from Sony and improved AF.

[DonSchap]

Ok ... then explain why they are talkin' about it, now.

I'll, uh ... just wait here. :rolleyes:

Psst: And no usin' the "N"-word (aka "Nikon" ... oh, shhh...)

[rawpaw18]

A few for sure, but the Price of the D300 is not for starters. Canon has the 400D, Sony the A100, wich are at their price the most advanced offerings. Nikon is lagging at that price point featurewise, wich tends to sway newbies.



Which features are lacking on the D300? It seems to be a very advanced camera to me.

[coldrain]

Which features are lacking on the D300? It seems to be a very advanced camera to me.
The pricepoint of the 400D and A100 he is referring to... not the D300.

[rawpaw18]

He said Nikon is lacking,
Could mean he wants to see an $1100 Nikon camera with features of the 40D & A100.

[DonSchap]

The next big step ... in the coming season, with the announced Nikon D3, is Canon's release of the full-frame EOS 5D replacement, the "EOS-3D" & SONY's release of the full-frame provocator, the "A900 Pro"

Obviously, these are cameras decidedly aimed at a market most of us are ill-equipped to compete in. Full-frame photography is usually done with a target audience in mind, not just the hobby photographer's personal benefit.

So ... how many are really ready to step up and buy these cameras over the APS-C market? Obviously, this will be the new battleground, but are we really participants in the war ... or is it really taking place OVER OUR HEADS?

And what happens to all the EF-S lenses in your glass collection?

A sobering question, to be sure. :o

[rawpaw18]

No full frame here, it looks like a D300 for me.
It has some features that appeal to me.
These are a couple of upgrades from my current camera.

51 Point AF 3D tracking
3" 922,000 pixel LCD
6/8 Frames per sec
ISO 100-6400
Self Cleaning
4 WB preset banks
Multi Exposure 2-10

And many more.

[coldrain]

No full frame here, it looks like a D300 for me.
It has some features that appeal to me.
These are a couple of upgrades from my current camera.

51 Point AF 3D tracking
3" 922,000 pixel LCD
6/8 Frames per sec
ISO 100-6400
Self Cleaning
4 WB preset banks
Multi Exposure 2-10

And many more.
3" 307.200 pixel LCD
2.5/6/8 fps
ISO 200-3200 (100 and 6400 with "boost")

You left out what I like best about the 40D and D300... 14 bits RAW and live view...

[DonSchap]

Live view ... oh, how useful. If I didn't miss it before ... I guess the "real live" viewfinder wasn't good enough.

Well, battery power supporting the 3" LCD should be a "LIVE TEST" to be sure, using that "feature."

I tell ya ... that S3/S5 electronic viewfinder was a complete pain doing close-up work. I guess you might eventually get used to it, but I have to say ... I never did. I guess I also don't have to mention where the camera is, either. LOL

SONY obviously didn't consider either the 14-bit RAW or "Live-View" a problem ... it's not on the A700, either. I know, I know ... back to the drawing boards.

[coldrain]

Live view ... oh, how useful. If I didn't miss it before ...
Very useful indeed.... it opens a lot of possibilities.
Especially with the mirror up AF function... when you are out and about. You can not miss what you do never had Don, I guess.

No, it is not for closeup work.

In 1998 you did not miss IS either, you did not miss 8mp resolution, and you did not miss photoshop post processing. You did not miss RAW, you did not miss ISO 800.

After you have understood its usefulness... you will miss it.

[DonSchap]

Oh ... I miss IS, alright. On the 20D, the 30D and yes ...even the newest can out of the box, the 40D! :eek:


Any bets on the 50D? What do you say? Four for Four?

[Franklin]

I really do not believe a multi-billion dollar company is going to allow itself to release a product and subject itself to redicule ... well, okay ... I'll give you the recent Canon- release (Wow, was that a short-sighted screw up).

One of the biggest bombs of the last year, just behind Vista

Sony Playstation 3

Enough said about this I assume ? ;)

[coldrain]

One of the biggest bombs of the last year, just behind Vista

Sony Playstation 3

Enough said about this I assume ? ;)
Mini disk... memory stick... beta max...

[Franklin]

He said Nikon is lacking,
Could mean he wants to see an $1100 Nikon camera with features of the 40D & A100.

No I said exactly what Coldpoint says:

Canon has the 400D, Sony the A100, wich are at their price the most advanced offerings. Nikon is lagging at that price point featurewise, wich tends to sway newbies.

I never said anything about Nikon having to create a 40D like cam, the D300 promises to be a much better cam at every point(though I would love the price, the 1800 Euro will be painful this christmas).

[DonSchap]

No I said exactly what Coldpoint says:

Canon has the 400D, Sony the A100, wich are at their price the most advanced offerings. Nikon is lagging at that price point featurewise, wich tends to sway newbies.

I never said anything about Nikon having to create a 40D like cam, the D300 promises to be a much better cam at every point(though I would love the price, the 1800 Euro will be painful this christmas).

Hey, once you present those D300-shots ... you'll easily make up the ground you lost with the expense of the camera. Heck, the way you make it sound ... it may just start taking the darn images for you!

Now, that's livin'! :D

[Franklin]

Hey, once you present those D300-shots ... you'll easily make up the ground you lost with the expense of the camera. Heck, the way you make it sound ... it may just start taking the darn images for you!

Now, that's livin'! :D

The embarrasing truth, one of my best pictures was made on a lowly compact with traditional film :o

I'm not worthy of the D300... but I want it and I can afford it *mimmicks greedy kid in candy store*

But if it was cheaper I could buy more candy... though then the dentist bill... heyyyyy going of track here :D

[erichlund]

3" 307.200 pixel LCD
2.5/6/8 fps
ISO 200-3200 (100 and 6400 with "boost")

You left out what I like best about the 40D and D300... 14 bits RAW and live view...

Ok, but your 230,000 dot Canon LCD's only have about 77000 pixels. They are all listed in dots, not pixels. You can ask Phil Askey about this, but he's so pissed about people asking this question over, and over, and over, that he probably won't answer.

The best one was when someone essentially told him he was wrong, given that he had both a 40D and a D300 right in front of him, and could see for himself.

[coldrain]

Ok, but your 230,000 dot Canon LCD's only have about 77000 pixels. They are all listed in dots, not pixels. You can ask Phil Askey about this, but he's so pissed about people asking this question over, and over, and over, that he probably won't answer.

The best one was when someone essentially told him he was wrong, given that he had both a 40D and a D300 right in front of him, and could see for himself.
I know that it has 320x240 pixels :p
It is not all that hard to do the math ;)
That is a LOT higher pixel density than my TFT screen has. A lot of people overlook that too.

[erichlund]

I know that it has 320x240 pixels :p
It is not all that hard to do the math ;)
That is a LOT higher pixel density than my TFT screen has. A lot of people overlook that too.

However you want to calculate it, the new Nikons and the Sony A700 have twice the linear resolution and 4 times the number of dots or pixels (take your pick). That's the point.

[coldrain]

However you want to calculate it, the new Nikons and the Sony A700 have twice the linear resolution and 4 times the number of dots or pixels (take your pick). That's the point.
And consequently the slower frame rate... I can judge sharpness on my computer screen fine.

[DonSchap]

I almost forgot about this thread ... quite a read ... and to see where we are today.

Along with the new Nikon D700, the SONY α900 turned out to be "the announcments of the year." The SONY α900 (24.6MP) wound up fully capable of not only shooting stabilized images, at full frame ... but, also able to mount ALL the Minolta/SONY lenses FF-design or APS-C lens "DT" (in an 11MP CROP mode). Nikon also offers their own scaled lens option (FX or DX). That was using the old noodle. :) The Canon 5DmkII only can use the Full Frame design lenses (EF), so upgrading from an APS-C sensor camera requires effectingly ditching the EF-S lenses for new ones. Opps! :( Better budget for that one!

It still remains to be seen if having "video" in the DSLR is worth the effort. I haven't seen many postings along those lines. Personally, I believe it to be a waste of time, if you are a "still" photographer. In my opinion, the manufacturers would be better served concentrating on a quality STILL image, with little to no noise, at high-ISO ... than whether or not they can turn out a 5-minute blurb of a poor-sounding video on your already tight memory. Get a video camera designed for such things.

Unfortunately, with the economy in a disastrous downslide ... sales are not doing as well as anyone hoped. Some folks need to eat. :eek:

"Coldrain" is probably just chomping at the bit ... trying to figure out how he can FINALLY get his hands on an internally stabilized Full-Frame, that does NOT vignette! Pigs are flying, Pal!



42127

[Rhys]

If video in a dSLR quality is halfway decent then I can imagine all the amateur film makers will be busy making HD videos and severely worrying Hollywood - especially since computer-generated graphic effects now are getting so easy to do. I can well imagine a few more Letter To Brezhnev films coming out. Letter to Brezhnev, if you don't know, was developed on a shoestring budget and was one of the very best films of the 1980s.

As far as in-body IS is concerned, I'm not honestly too bothered whether my IS comes in my lenses or in my bodies - as long as it works. If camera makers could put it all in-body at full frame then it would mean lenses could be made without the added complication of IS.

I like the way everybody is now going full frame. I'm a little tired of the shallow depth of field available in crop cameras. At 10 feet at f4 I get barely a foot of depth with a crop sensor and a 50mm lens. It's double that with a full-sized sensor.

[Ray Schnoor]

I'm a little tired of the shallow depth of field available in crop cameras. At 10 feet at f4 I get barely a foot of depth with a crop sensor and a 50mm lens. It's double that with a full-sized sensor.
If you are photographing the same subject with a cropped sensor and a full frame sensor, you will need to be further from the subject with the cropped sensor camera to get the same field of view as the full framed camera. In this case, the cropped sensor camera would have a greater depth of field than the full frame sensor.

If you want to have the ~same field of view on a cropped sensor camera(at 10 feet) as you would have on a full framed camera(at 10 feet), you would have to use a focal length of ~34mm on the cropped sensor camera. In this case, the cropped sensor camera would have a greater depth of field.

No one has ever said that cropped sensor cameras have a shallower depth of field than full framed cameras. Actually, quite the opposite has been listed as a negative(or positive depending on your perspective) for cropped sensor cameras in that they have a much greater depth of field than full framed cameras.

Ray.

[raven15]

I like the way everybody is now going full frame. I'm a little tired of the shallow depth of field available in crop cameras. At 10 feet at f4 I get barely a foot of depth with a crop sensor and a 50mm lens. It's double that with a full-sized sensor.

Surely you meant you are tired of the large depth of field? Full frame cameras have shallower depth of field. If you want a DSLR with greater depth of field you want Olympus :) Smaller sensors have greater depth of field.

[DonSchap]

If you want "controllable" optical isolation with DOF ... get a better (WIDER APERTURE) lens. The camera, itself, should be the LAST method of doing this.

C'mon ... are we photographers here or what? :rolleyes: Man, I've been in the darkroom too long. What happened out here? :eek:

[Rooz]

that ma be the case Don, but a FF camera will have a shallower dof cos of the sensor size. so if you put a 2.8 lens on both a DX and an FX then all else being equal, the FX will be shallower. thts just the physics of the sensor size. michaelb has proven that pretty darn well. FX, from what i have seen, is also smoother...probbaly as a result of the size of the photosites or whatever the hell their called.

[DonSchap]

Rooz,

You have to admit, there are darn few FF-shooters in this forum. I mean, at $3000 a copy for the camera body ... the alternative is that you can get a couple really nice wide-aperture lenses to do this with, rather than relying on "ol' smoothy" sensor ... and still having to use your tighter, lower-grade lenses. Obviously, if you already have the glass ... then yeah ... but glass first (and always!), then worry about tossing away an additional $3000 for extra "photosites" ... or whatever they are (http://www.sphoto.com/techinfo/dslrsensors/dslrsensors.htm). (<- click on this link ... for a brief explanation of sensor types and effects.)

[Rooz]

i'm not arguing with your logic. i'm just pointing out that there is a difference due to the sensor size alone. i suspect by this time next year there will be far more people shooting FX. and in 2 or 3 years my guess would be that the majority will be shooting FX.

FX provides a better quality image, better low light performance and given the marketing departments obsession with MP's, a move to FX seems only logical cos you ant cram anymore MP's onto aps-c without some degredation of quality...the 50d is evidence of that.

12mp seems to be the max for aps-c and it appears that 24mp is the saturation point for FX, (actually, maybe less depending on the 5dMkII's performance).

i'll go even further and say that nikon's MX rumours are true, (RED is also rumoured to be hankering for a piece of the high end dslr market), a slightly smaller than MF sensor in a D3 style body for the real serious guys where you can cram in 40mp and retain low light performance.

[Csae]

The 5D being one of the nicer FF cameras, nick got one for 1,450 and im seeing most coming up locally for about 1,700CAD.

Far, Far, from your 3k.

In fact, you'd chip in 3k, for a 5d MarkII which is brand spanking new. Aside that you can go FF relatively easily.

Everything is the same, just let your eyes adjust ;)

[Rooz]

The 5D being one of the nicer FF cameras, nick got one for 1,450 and im seeing most coming up locally for about 1,700CAD.

well its one of the ONLY FF cameras. lol

if you shoot canon i dont see any longevity or logic in a 5d. i'd be saving for a MkII or waiting for canon to release a cheaper "3d" which i still maintain is on the cards...16mp FF with a much better frame rate and AF system.

[DonSchap]

Well, if you are taking images for billboards ... 40MP might be the way to go, but the problem is, as SONY discovered, the more MP you work with ... the harder it is to control noise levels. High-ISO just deteriorates these images.

Of course, some kind of sensor image processing could be done to eliminate these problems, but if you rip it out in RAW ... problems are there. Then you have ask ... at what cost are we talking? Right now, the 50MP Hasselblad is roughtly 50K. I'm not too sure my photography could support that kind of outlay. Even half that is staggering and, pretty much, unrealistic. Maybe "CW" could justify it ... but. there goes the kid's college fund ... at least for the better schools.

[Rooz]

i dont thionk you read my post Don. read the MX bit.
regarding noise on the a900...its no secret that sony suck at controlling noise. the 5dmkII has the same resolution and appears on the surfce to have a much better handle of things.

[cdifoto]

And here I am still getting great images out of the 10D...

I must be doing something wrong.

[Rooz]

i'm sure a datsun 180b can still get you to and from work pretty good aswell. my 5year old plasma still looks great, my boston accoustics speakers still sound great...

should i go on ?

[Csae]

I would agree with the idea of a new 3D, something full frame with some of the new technologies but at the 16megapixels level would fill the gap left by the 2,700 5D MarkII.

Mind you, for all we know, that could be the 40D MarkII, they did say the 50D isn't it. So maybe they will overhaul the 40D, drop 15 or 16mps, and give it a full frame. That would be very nice, and they could price it at the 2k mark to fill the gap between the 50D and the 5D M.II

Would i still get a 5D if the above suggestion doesn't happen? Sure, because it still works great. If my old datsun 180b can still get me to work and still looks great, then i sure as hell aint spending the money on a new one.

There are lots of people taking great care of their old cars and still using them :) So long as <insert object or tool here> can do the job i need it to at a good level, i wont look at upgrades just for the sake of upgrading. You just wait for something that really Warrants upgrading, sorta like going from a charriot to a car, instead to just a faster charriot.

Ps. i still use photoshop cs1 :P

[cdifoto]

i'm sure a datsun 180b can still get you to and from work pretty good aswell. my 5year old plasma still looks great, my boston accoustics speakers still sound great...

should i go on ?
Yep and I'd be the type to keep the Datsun, 5 year old plasma, boston acoustics speakers...

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

You clearly aren't familiar with the Datsun 180b. Man I couldn't stand driving one of them anymore. I inherited one of those with my wife. It just didn't cut it.

[Rooz]

better than a 200b which was just a 180b with 20 more mistakes. :D

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

LMFAO
plus extra characters to reach Jeff's min reply of 10 characters

[cdifoto]

You clearly aren't familiar with the Datsun 180b. Man I couldn't stand driving one of them anymore. I inherited one of those with my wife. It just didn't cut it.
If it works, I use it.

If it doesn't work, I get rid of it.

My 10D works.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

My wife, the Datsun 180b and our first rental house. It all worked, wouldn't go back to it but.

[K1W1]

i' my 5year old plasma still looks great,

If you have a 5 year old Plasma chances are that it doesn't look great at all it's just that the slow deterioration of the display is not being noticed by your eyes.
If you were to put a brand new example of your TV side by side with your 5 year old one there will be a noticeable degradation in the picture of your example.

[K1W1]

My wife, the Datsun 180b and our first rental house. It all worked, wouldn't go back to it but.

But that was the racing model with the mismatched bonnet colour and the factory rust in the corners of the doors. We used to get extra when we sold those ones (and I sold plenty).

[Rooz]

If you have a 5 year old Plasma chances are that it doesn't look great at all it's just that the slow deterioration of the display is not being noticed by your eyes.
If you were to put a brand new example of your TV side by side with your 5 year old one there will be a noticeable degradation in the picture of your example.

we have a 6 month old brand spanking new Sony full HD LCD in the next room. i reckon the Pioneer plasma shits all over it. its not as sharp as the Sony for sure but much nicer to look at. just had a quick look, its 4 years old, not 5.

[Rooz]

My wife, the Datsun 180b and our first rental house. It all worked, wouldn't go back to it but.

lol what a great photo !

my first car was an old shitbox VW. the wipers wouldnt work so we tied some string to the wipers and then looped it thru the side quarter panels so when it rained i'd pull the string from side to side to get them to work. it annoyed the crap outta me at the time but i look back very fondly now.

[Csae]

Lol, when you said that, i thought about what would happen if you had just looped them to the rims, like a train effect. Your wipers would have probably been very very fast.

[Phill D]

Hey this thread is amazing interesting with lots of little divertions very entertaining guys nice one. Only had time to go back a few pages though as work beckons :(. Anway just thought I'd add a comment. I'd say it will always be horses for courses where sensor size is concerned with the image quality required by the occasion/photographer balanced against the weight of the camera that the photographer is willing to put up with at the time. Today there is a wide range of sensor sizes noise abilities & camera weights it will be interesting to see how they are all rationalised in the future but I'd say there will allways be the range from those who want the pocketable snapshot to those who want the cleanest image possible and don't mind using a trolly. The steps in between in my mind will probably reduce to more specific categories. The camera makers who get these categories right will have the easiest ride through this financial slow down.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

LOL Rooz,

I remember going surfing in a mates car and watching the road go by through the gear lever cover. Old times are better after the event for sure.