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m73hollis
12-23-2004, 10:06 PM
I'm trying to help my parents choose a new digital camera. We're thinking something less than $400, but they might consider somewhat more if you can convince us it's the perfect camera.

My father: no photography knowledge, basic point and shoot kind of guy, but more savvy in using digital technology. Probably uses our current camera the most.

My mother: an artist, a painter. Has an Olympus rather fancy non-digital camera that she uses to take photos (mainly slides) of her work. Comfortable with manual settings in photography, but not all that comfortable with digital technology.

The current camera: I don't have it in front of me, but I think it's the Toshiba PDR-M71 or something quite similar.

We originally bought the camera for my mother, thinking that she would use it to make photos of her art, perhaps for the web. I chose the camera because it had 3 megapixels (which was on the high end at the time) and manual control options. In reality, though, my mother has rarely used it and no one has used the manual settings. I'm the only one who ever bothered to actually read the thick manual. It seemed to me that the "manual" controls were more like pseudo-manual, embedded in on-screen menus with cutesy icons. My mother just doesn't have the digital patience or know-how to navigate all that. A dial or simple system where she can choose the f-stop number is going to work much better for her.

We have used the camera mainly for snapshots, pictures to quickly send on the web or have fun altering on the computer. We've never printed any of the photos.

My parents are fed up with the camera now because it absolutely chews through its four AA rechargeable batteries. They prefer the idea of an internal battery, just plugging in the camera and having it recharge rather than dealing with external chargers. Some of the buying guides I've read have suggested that the AA batteries are more convenient if you find yourself afield and without power. I suppose my parents might consider another camera that takes normal batteries if they were assured that it would last considerably longer than the current one. So far they haven't taken the camera too far afield, though, mostly photos around the home, they are just sick of it being out of juice every time they pick it up.

So now that we're thinking of getting a new camera, the bigger question is what kind to get. I'm not sure my mother will ever be convinced to use a digital camera instead of her "real" one for photographing her paintings, or really for taking any photos where image quality counts. She's just not convinced that a digital camera is capable of producing high quality images (especially proper color), and perhaps she's right given our price range.

I think if we got another camera with manual controls it would need to be very straightforward or mimic the controls of my mother's Olympus. It would also have to have good enough image quality to make it worthwhile for my mother to learn how to use it. Otherwise, I guess we might as well get a simpler point and shoot-type camera to continue to do the basic convenience-type shots that the Toshiba has been relegated to. Image quality, especially good color, would probably be the top concern for either type of camera given my mother's artistic sensitivities.

At this point we've yet to even try printing photos, but I suppose it might happen. Maybe up to 8x10, I'm not sure. Movie capabilities and such are completely unnecessary. In fact, I think the simpler is better in terms of bells and whistles. I don't think zoom is super-important, but might be nice.

Well, if you're still reading this long post, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

David Metsky
12-24-2004, 06:24 AM
You might consider buying newer, more powerful, 2400 or 2500 mAh batteries which will last considerably longer than batteries you purchased 3 years ago. I don't know about the power use of that camera in particular, but you can probably get much better performance with new batteries.

Cameras that require you to place the camera in a charger are IMO a pain. You have to stop taking pictures whey you get low, which can be inconvienent if you are in the middle of something or impossible if you are away from a wall socket or didn't carry your cradle with you. I'd much rather just pop out a battery, insert your fully charged spare, and drop the empty battery in the charger when you get a chance.

A high quality 4 MP camera will produce 8x10 prints that are essentially indistinguishable from film prints. If your mom doesn't want to switch from film that's fine, but I don't think this is a valid reason unless she's producing very large (poster sized) prints.

PhilR.
12-24-2004, 07:46 AM
they are just sick of it being out of juice every time they pick it up.

How long do they go without using the camera? Rechargeables slowly loose their charge over time. Therefore it would be unreasonable to expect them to always be charged if someone isn't recharging them every now and then.

So now that we're thinking of getting a new camera, the bigger question is what kind to get. I'm not sure my mother will ever be convinced to use a digital camera instead of her "real" one for photographing her paintings, or really for taking any photos where image quality counts. She's just not convinced that a digital camera is capable of producing high quality images (especially proper color), and perhaps she's right given our price range.

Since she makes 35mm slides of her work, why are you even considering digital? The two don't really mix. If she needs slides, then stick with 35mm, as it becomes a costly hassle to make slides from a digital image. I do agree that a good 4mp camera will make great prints, but you didn't mention whether or not she actually needs prints. If she does decide that she wants prints of her work, what size prints does she want?

At this point we've yet to even try printing photos, but I suppose it might happen. Maybe up to 8x10, I'm not sure. Movie capabilities and such are completely unnecessary. In fact, I think the simpler is better in terms of bells and whistles. I don't think zoom is super-important, but might be nice.

Well, as most digicams have a movie mode, you will probably get it anyway. Just disregard that particular icon on the selector dial... You might consider another Olympus. After all, they make great cameras of all price and feature ranges. They also have models with zooms up to 10x. Certainly they will have something that will fulfill your requirements. Be careful though when selecting, as I believe that some of them have manual modes that require you to go through menus, and you mentioned that your mom didn't like that kind of thing. I personally like cameras that allow manual modes to be directly accessed through an individual setting on a selector dial.

Happy holidays!
PhilR.

Billiam
12-24-2004, 10:33 AM
Is your mothers "fancy" Olympus an OM series SLR? If so, I don't think you're going to find the kind of manual controls with which your mother is familiar on any inexpensive digicam. Most really are designed to 'point'n'shoot', and their manual controls require button pushes, menu navigation and (on more sophisticated cameras) a scroll wheel to change settings.

One camera that does have manual controls layed out like a film camera is the Panasonic LC1. It also offers very good image quality. The downside is price, 3 to 4 times what you'd like to spend!

If any camera will meet most of your criteria (besides price!), it's probably a digital SLR like the Canon Digital Rebel. The SLR will give the quality results your mother needs for documenting her artwork, and much longer battery life than a P'n'S digicam. You might want to bring your mother to a camera shop to see if she likes how it handles. It will still require dealing with buttons and menus.

If you're not shooting enough film for the price of processing to matter, and the digitals you can afford have no advantage over the camera you already own, then by all means stick with film! If your mother needs digital images, spend the money on a slide scanner instead of a new camera.

m73hollis
12-24-2004, 08:20 PM
Thanks for your advice. In response to various comments:

I don't think we're looking to replace my mother's 35mm camera, especially because she does do a lot with slides. There's some chance she might use a digital camera to take snapshots of gallery installations, etc. But truthfully, in the end the camera we get will probably just be a recreational camera. Even then, though, my mother would be more likely to use it if it had decent image quality and color.

Given that we're not looking to replace her SLR, especially since we can't afford to get a nice D-SLR, the main question we are facing is whether it's worthwhile getting something that has some manual features. As Billiam pointed out, it's unlikely that we'll find the kinds of controls my mother is used to on an inexpensive digicam. Any suggestions on models or brands of digicams that tend to be more intuitive for experienced film users would be appreciated (yeah, sadly the LC1 is too pricey). I think it's a good idea for us to actually go to a camera store and see if there are any cameras that have manual options set up in a way she doesn't find frustrating. Unfortunately, being in rural Vermont, that takes some commitment and planning.

Thanks again.

ReF
12-24-2004, 08:54 PM
i really think you are using really old rechargables that have reached the end of their service life you are using something really crappy for batteries such as the Ni-CD type. i can get about 150-200 shots off of 1850 mah Ni-MH rechargeable AA's, and those batteris are weak by today's stadards PLUS i take quite a long time setting up my shots. I guess it depends on the person, but i really don't see much difference in operating manual controls such as shutter speed with the push of a button VS setting it with a dial. I mean, both are displayed on a little screen and serve the same purpose, but then again, it's really up to the user. I think you guys are having such an unpleasant time with digital because your cam is very old (vast improvements over the last 3 years) AND it was a toshiba. i'd suggest looking at the Canon A95 or Panasonic fz15.

PhilR.
12-24-2004, 09:07 PM
the main question we are facing is whether it's worthwhile getting something that has some manual features. As Billiam pointed out, it's unlikely that we'll find the kinds of controls my mother is used to on an inexpensive digicam.

Maybe so, maybe not. It depends on how old your mom's slr is. An older slr is easily controlled by rotating either an aperture ring on the lens, or a shutter speed dial, and unless it is a really old one, one just rotates the mode selector dial to whatever priority mode they want to use and then turn the corresponding ring. Newer 35mm slrs however use a rotating selector dial, but have some type of controller to change the shutter speeds or aperture, and your choice is displayed in the viewfinder. The Canon EOS Rebel 35mm slr I have works this way.

I bring this up because my digital camera (Pana. FZ3) also has the same type of rotating selector dial that one uses to select the same aperture or shutter priority modes, and also has full manual as well. In other words, my digicam has the same shooting modes as a 35mm slr. It also uses a separate button/controller to change the speed/aperture settings and displays this in the viewfinder, just like the Canon Rebel and other newer slr's does. One only needs to learn how a particular camera works, and if one can learn a 35mm slr, they can learn how to work a digicam too. To give you an example, to shoot aperture priority with my slr, you rotate the mode selector to "Av", and then select/change the aperture by rotating a verticle selector dial while looking through the viewfinder. To do this same thing with my FZ3 requires one extra step. You rotate the selector dial to "A", hit a button on the back to let the camera know you want to make a change, and then hit the verticle selector dial (which does other functions as well, hence the second step) while looking through the viewfinder (or at the lcd). Not quite the same as a 35mm slr, but almost.

Take a look at the Panasonic FZ line. The larger FZ15 and FZ20 are similar in size to a 35mm slr, and even look quite similar to one too. Even the much smaller FZ3 looks similar to a 35mm slr that was left in the dryer too long. They handle and shoot like an slr, and are controlled in much the same way as well. They all have full-auto modes as well as aperture/shutter priority modes, and full manual too. They do however lack a "B" setting, but I think they (and many other digicams) make up for this with numerous other mode selection choices. This line of cameras is known for their 12x optical zoom lenses with image stabilisation technology, plus the fact that their zoom lens is f2.8 across the whole zoom range. They have more than "decent image quality and color".

Not all digicams are intuitive in their use, but many will be to the 35mm slr user. I found that I could use just about all the features of my FZ3 without even looking at the instruction manual. The FZ3 has been on sale lately, and a few days ago could be had for under $300 from the Circuit City web site. Of course there are many other very capable cameras out there as well, but I don't know of any that are easier to make use of all their functions.

PhilR.