What's my best option? (Canon SD800, Fuji f31fd, panasonic dmc-TZ3, wait 4 a new HP?)

[moosen34]

Budget:
I'd like to spend no more than $300, but if it's worth it, I'll get it.

Size
Something that I can carry around in my pocked or in a belt case

Features
I'll most likely be happy with anything over 6MP. I'd like an optical IS (I know the Fuji doesn't have one)
Image quality is important but they're mostly for memories and will stay on the computer. I will make some prints though.
I'd like a decent zoom. Most of the new cameras out will probably suffice.
I don't, and probably won't care too much for manual controls. Just want to take it out of my pocket and take pictures

General Usage
Travel pictures mostly. I like to take pictures when I'm out on a special occasion. Going to the zoo, new places, gatherings with friends, camping, car shows, sports events, etc... I also have a chameleon with great colors that I like to photo and a dog so I like to take action shots.
Indoor and outdoor equally

Misc
I'm not biased. I want something easy to use but I am tech saavy and can learn to use anything well. I don't want to have to tinker with the camera a lot to use it though. I'd like to be able to take quick shots though so I do not want anything slow.
IS will probably be good. I read that a camera without IS is probably not even worth buying these days but the FUJI gets great reviews and doesn't have it. I'd probably prefer it though because I'll be disappointed with blurry pictures.

The new HP lineup interests me. Seems like a lot of new cameras with great prices coming out and a lot of features. One thing I don't like though is that their stabilization is not optical but software I guess you would call it.

I like the Panasonic because of the big screen, the IS, and the zoom, but I read image quality isn't that great.

The Canon might be my best choice, but I've seen comparison pics of that and the Fuji and the Fuji was rated much higher.

I appreciate any responses

[Rooz]

fuji by a country mile. i have the canon 850is which isn;t much different from the 800 and the fuji kicks its ass handily.

[moosen34]

That's what I was afraid of. Real owner review telling me the Fuji pictures are better. If it had IS, I would have already bought it.

The fact is 90% of my pictures are going to be taken when I pull the camera out of my pocket and shoot away, which is why I'm leaning toward IS, but I want good quality looking pics regardless and I keep hearing how great the Fuji is.

Is not having IS that big of a deal and is it going to ruin a lot of my pictures?

[Rooz]

what in particualr do you want IS for ? it wont help you with dogs, kids, sports, gatherings with friends, animals at the zoo etc. well not unless you tell them all to stay completley still.

my recommendation to anyone who wants a compact to use indoors, of kids and family in particualr, to get the fuji. if i knew as much about the fuji as i do now since my brother bought one, there is no way on God's earth i would have touched the canon.

[hercules]

I was going to buy the Fuji F31fd, but decided on the SD800/IXUS 850 IS, it takes nice pictures and the fuji just has better ISO than the canon but the fuji doesn't have IS, lets see the fuji do a hand held shot at 0.6 like this one http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x293/SpartanWarriors/stockroom.jpg and here's one in the museum at 1/8 no flash and none are PP, http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x293/SpartanWarriors/museum3.jpg and one outside of museum. http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x293/SpartanWarriors/museum.jpg

[John_Reed]

Now Rooz must be a young shooter, so he can probably handhold his Fuji down to very slow shutterspeeds. I'm an old guy with a shaky hand, and from my experience with a Fuji or even other cameras without IS, 1/40 is the absolutely slowest shutterspeed I can hand hold, even at wideangle, where supposedly I should need the least help. This photo from my TZ3, shot at 1/20, ISO 800 and equivalent focal length of 77mm, I couldn't have captured with the Fuji:

http://John-Reed.smugmug.com/photos/151034499-L.jpg

People seem to believe that low light is the only meaningful mode for comparing cameras, but for travel-type photos, a heckuva lot of images are made outdoors, some indoors too. Some with flash indoors, some without. Again, the bulk of MY travel photos will generally be taken outside. Here's a link to my TZ3 gallery (http://john-reed.smugmug.com/gallery/2762845); you can see the range of images I've collected thus far.

[moosen34]

what in particualr do you want IS for ? it wont help you with dogs, kids, sports, gatherings with friends, animals at the zoo etc. well not unless you tell them all to stay completley still.

The reason I was leaning towards IS is because I like to take snap shots quickly sometimes and go and I don't have the patience to try to hold the camera completely still in my hands. I noticed it when I was taking a look at pictures I I took with my girlfriend's camera, but her camera might have just been out of focus. She's in need of a new camera too (her's is a Visio).

I don't like to hold a camera around and make sure that I'm getting the right picture every time. A fast shutter speed might be what I need most. If what I'm saying isn't going to affect the pictures that I'm taking, let me know & Fuji it is.

Does anyone know, or care about the new HP lineup coming out or do HP cameras not compare?

[tim11]

The reason I was leaning towards IS is because I like to take snap shots quickly sometimes and go and I don't have the patience to try to hold the camera completely still in my hands. I noticed it when I was taking a look at pictures I I took with my girlfriend's camera, but her camera might have just been out of focus. She's in need of a new camera too (her's is a Visio).

I don't like to hold a camera around and make sure that I'm getting the right picture every time. A fast shutter speed might be what I need most. If what I'm saying isn't going to affect the pictures that I'm taking, let me know & Fuji it is.

Does anyone know, or care about the new HP lineup coming out or do HP cameras not compare?

I can't see how having a camera with IS enable you to shoot faster? You can get away with some shaky hands, that's the purpose of IS. Not shooting faster.
I'm not sure if any camera is suitable if you want to whip it out of you hip, shoot, spin it around and shove it back into the case like a cowboy :). And expecting a sharp photo all the times. Fast shutter is possible only either if you have a lot of light or you have a camera with higher ISO capability. Be aware of those camera boasting ISO to %%%%%%% since most have crappy image quality at such claims. Fuji has highest ISO and cleanest IQ at present. That's why it can be suitable for you.
As Mr J. Reed mentioned, everyone needs is different. I can shoot at 1/8sec and sometimes slower at wide. How steady are you?
BTW: That shot outside the musuem... the purple fringing is worse than F30's.

[Rooz]

hercules:
while i agree that shots 1 and 2 are where IS really shines the fuji could have arguabely adjusted the iso way up to achieve similar results anyway. you dont have the option with the canon cos the iso is crappy. i know its crappy cos i own one. in saying that, for totally still objects like those 2, then IS iwill certianly yield the best results, for that i agree. the 3rd photo is completely misleading to the OP cos it is shot at 1/800s where IS was not needed and so totally irrelevant.

besides which, you say that you would like to see the fuji shoot at 1/8s without IS ? well, i'd like to see how that photo would turn out at 1/8s of a child moving around the house. answer: the photo would not be possible. the OP has specified the images he will be shooting the most which are MOVING OBJECTS. so i reiterate, IS and the ability to shoot at 1/8s is essentially redundant for this purpose.

the OP needs to understand 2 things.

1. IS is effective when your shutter speed CANNOT be increased.
2. ISO is used to increase your shutter speed.

if you are after faster shutter speeds then IS is effectively pointless cos its only really effective when your shutter speeds CANNOT be increased.

as you were gentlemen...:)

[hercules]

I can't see how having a camera with IS enable you to shoot faster? You can get away with some shaky hands, that's the purpose of IS. Not shooting faster.
I'm not sure if any camera is suitable if you want to whip it out of you hip, shoot, spin it around and shove it back into the case like a cowboy :). And expecting a sharp photo all the times. Fast shutter is possible only either if you have a lot of light or you have a camera with higher ISO capability. Be aware of those camera boasting ISO to %%%%%%% since most have crappy image quality at such claims. Fuji has highest ISO and cleanest IQ at present. That's why it can be suitable for you.
As Mr J. Reed mentioned, everyone needs is different. I can shoot at 1/8sec and sometimes slower at wide. How steady are you?
BTW: That shot outside the musuem... the purple fringing is worse than F30's.I don't know if the purple fringing is worse or not, maybe post one yourself and do no PP,, but i will say this i had fuji's before and i don't think they even have the same IQ as Canon.

[hercules]

hercules:
while i agree that shots 1 and 2 are where IS really shines the fuji could have arguabely adjusted the iso way up to achieve similar results anyway. you dont have the option with the canon cos the iso is crappy. i know its crappy cos i own one. in saying that, for totally still objects like those 2, then IS iwill certianly yield the best results, for that i agree. the 3rd photo is completely misleading to the OP cos it is shot at 1/800s where IS was not needed and so totally irrelevant.

besides which, you say that you would like to see the fuji shoot at 1/8s without IS ? well, i'd like to see how that photo would turn out at 1/8s of a child moving around the house. answer: the photo would not be possible. the OP has specified the images he will be shooting the most which are MOVING OBJECTS. so i reiterate, IS and the ability to shoot at 1/8s is essentially redundant for this purpose.

the OP needs to understand 2 things.

1. IS is effective when your shutter speed CANNOT be increased.
2. ISO is used to increase your shutter speed.

if you are after faster shutter speeds then IS is effectively pointless cos its only really effective when your shutter speeds CANNOT be increased.

as you were gentlemen...:)Yes your right,, but IS is really nice to have, but all in all they both have their good and bad i guess;)

[tim11]

I don't know if the purple fringing is worse or not, maybe post one yourself and do no PP,, but i will say this i had fuji's before and i don't think they even have the same IQ as Canon.
If true there must be something was wrong with your Fuji then. All expert reviewers unanimously agree F30's IQ is comparable to DSLR.
For instance, take DCRP ISO sample shots:
Fuji F30 at ISO400
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_f30-review/DSCF0119-crop.jpg

SD800IS aka IXUS 850is at ISO400
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_sd800-review/IMG_0101-crop.jpg

F30 at ISO800:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_f30-review/DSCF0120-crop.jpg

IXUS 850is at ISO800
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_sd800-review/IMG_0102-crop.jpg

And even F30's ISO3200 is better than IXUS850 IS.
Fuji ISO3200:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_f30-review/DSCF0122-crop.jpg

850IS ISO1600:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_sd800-review/IMG_0103-crop.jpg

As it is now, Fuji is the only non DSLR that has usable ISO up to 1600. And depending on your mileage, ISO3200 is even acceptable to some.

Here is a link to my handheld high ISO shots from Fuji F-series photos (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=182511&postcount=129). All exif intact.

[hercules]

If true there must be something was wrong with your Fuji then. All expert reviewers unanimously agree F30's IQ is comparable to DSLR.
For instance, take DCRP ISO sample shots:
Fuji F30 at ISO400
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_f30-review/DSCF0119-crop.jpg

SD800IS aka IXUS 850is at ISO400
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_sd800-review/IMG_0101-crop.jpg

F30 at ISO800:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_f30-review/DSCF0120-crop.jpg

IXUS 850is at ISO800
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_sd800-review/IMG_0102-crop.jpg

And even F30's ISO3200 is better than IXUS850 IS.
Fuji ISO3200:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_f30-review/DSCF0122-crop.jpg

850IS ISO1600:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_sd800-review/IMG_0103-crop.jpg

As it is now, Fuji is the only non DSLR that has usable ISO up to 1600. And depending on your mileage, ISO3200 is even acceptable to some.

Here is a link to my handheld high ISO shots from Fuji F-series photos (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=182511&postcount=129). All exif intact.That's what they said about the S6000/6500fd that it compares to dslr's,, well no way not even in bright daylight,, don't even compare the F30 to a dslr there is no challange maybe it's the closest thing next to a dslr but only at high ISO but you get alot better IQ in a dslr, if it was like that everybody would just buy the f30 and forget about buying lenses and dslr's, now having a back up to a dslr yes i agree, but don't compare a compact with any dslr, thats what they also said about the FZ-50 that cracks me up.

[tim11]

Of course I agree. But for 'comparable to DSLR' is an error on my part. What I meant to say is it was compared to DSLR for IQ.
Dpreview is one:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/FujifilmF30/page14.asp
How many PnS on record enjoy such previlege? I bought one because of such reviews.
As for FZ50 IQ is any closer to DSLR would have cracked me up too.
As for S6000fd.... it won't stand toe to toe with DSLR but if you can find a non DSLR that can shoot with the same IQ at lowlight do let me know, I will surely save $$$$$$ for an alternative to D80.

[tim11]

I don't think all this discussion is helping moosen34?
Having enjoyed the best of both worlds (IS on FZ2 and ISO on F30) I do know how they can benefit the users and both sides of argument is valid. But only until they come with such a camera with usable ISO and IS, you still have to decide which one suits you better.
As said before, IS let you get away with hand shaking but it doesn't give you faster shutter speed. However, IS can only work with still objects or people who can pose for you; but young children won't be able to pose still so IS is useless.
ISO give you faster shutter speed, and for me personally I can shoot at lowlight at ISO1600 to 1/8 sec. At the same condition, if ISO400 used you need 1/2 sec and at ISO200 it means 1 second; whether you have Image Stabiliser or not.
If you don't mind using direct flash, however, higher ISO discussion shouldn't be in the discussion. Personally, I either shoot with bounce flash or no flash at all.

BTW: Recently there is someone who was recommended an expensive DSLR but was disappointed to find out that they can't get satisfactory IQ on auto modes. What I'm implying here is I doubt there is a camera that you can just flip out, shoot and get good result all the times. Even the best of camera, you must understand light and basic exposure technique so to increase your own success rate.

This is my 7 month old boy at ISO1600, 1/9 sec handheld no flash. Just to show the ability of F30's ISO quality. I won't be able to shoot like this with my FZ20 or any other PnS cameras for that matter.

[hercules]

Cute kid you have there Tim,, you know maybe i did have a bad copy because my S6500fd didn't even have that good IQ in bright daylight colors didn't stand out contrast wasn't that good so i sold it, i should of sent it back to have it replaced, because i have seen some very good IQ from that camera;)

[moosen34]

Thank you guys for the information. You guys are definitely past me by leaps and bounds in reference to the digital camera world, but your information has helped me understand it a lot more.

I think that I was putting too much emphasis on IS before and didn't really understand it, or the fact that there are other factors like ISO and shutter speed that affect image sharpness.

I'm no camera cowboy haha but I admit I like to snap quick shots on the go, or sometimes back to back when I see some action or an animal or something like that , and I know the IS won't help with moving objects but it will help if I don't want to concentrate on keeping the camera extremely still right?

I wanted to find the Fuji at a store yesterday so I could try it out but I couldn't find it. I did find the Canon and I thought the menu setup was done well. I saw the Panasonic as well and I didn't think it was as user friendly but it would probably just take some getting used to. Zoom on the Panasonic is great.
I really did want to check out the interface on the Fuji though especially after I liked the Canon interface.

I hope this isn't being redundant because I have read through all posts in this thread but consistently taking sharp images with the Fuji shouldn't be a problem I'm beginning to gather.

[Visual Reality]

In the end picture quality is what matters the most, it is the end product that you are after from the beginning. East of use, fun and comfortability of the camera are the second most important. With this in mind I have to go with the Fuji F31fd. It will give you the highest image quality, manual controls, and the fastest shutter speeds in any condition.

Plus the face detection works better than the Canon ;)

[tim11]

Hercules: Thanks for the compliment. Apparently the boy doesn't take after me - thanks goodness too!
I recommended S6000 to many people including a friend who actually wanted to buy DSLR 400D, and he can't be happier. I'm not saying it's any better than 400D but it suits his need perfectly and it saved him lots of money. Maybe your mileage is different.
However, Fuji's performance on auto modes is poor.

moosen34: In principle IS is like a virtual tripod. Yes you can get away more with not keeping the camera absolutely still if you have IS. However, if your hands shake extremely even the best IS in the world won't help, just to let you have some realistic idea.

[moosen34]

tim11, your kid makes me wish I was a kid again and trying to figure out what goes on top, the train or the track lol. Wish it was still that simple to have fun.

That is what I understood from this conversation about IS. A virtual tripod is a good thing for me. My hand's aren't that shaky but they won't always be perfectly still either.

Now when you say that Fuji's performance on Auto is poor, are you talking about the S6000 or the F31fd? I took a look at the S6000 and it's not a P&S so that is not what I'm looking for. I hope you don't mean the F31fd because I will most likely be taking the majority of my pics in an Auto mode unless I decide not to at the moment.

If you're not talking about the f31fd, and the auto performance of the Fuji is good, I will likely make it my choice.

How would experienced users rate the menus of the Fuji though? I wanted to play around with it but I can't find anywhere near me that has it to play with. Like I said, I liked the Canon's menus a lot. They were clear and easy to use and manipulate

BTW... I will likely NEVER use a tripod

[tim11]

moosen34:
Fuji has very high ISO capability that's why they are able to shoot at lower light where other PnS cameras can't. But with such higher ISO comes the grainy images known as 'noise'.

What I mean by auto 'mode is bad' is that Fuji engineers use higher ISO without reservation; for instance a shot on auto will go to ISO3200 where I normally would have used 800 if set manually. And sometimes at 1600 where ISO200 or 400 would have done the job. I guess they stress more importance on sharpness than the quality of the image.

I wrongly assumed you knew about the most common complaint about Fuji. I guess you should know about the camera's good and weak points before buying. Yes, all Fuji cameras, F30, F31fd, S6000... behave the same ways.

However, a quick cure is a mode (M) that let you shoot in AUTO but you can set max ISO400 and Max ISO1600. I always use Aperture mode and set ISO manually and I feel a little hassle is worth it for a camera with such capability.

Personally, I like the menu and dials on F30. They are all easier to access than my FZ20.

[moosen34]

Very good to know. Thank all of you for all of your help. I've read up a lot on the F31fd lately and I think I'm sold. It seems quick, has a great battery life, great image quality, and a good amount of controls that I could adjust after I learn how to use it well enough.

One thing that I hate is that an xD card is required, which seems to be slow and expensive, but unless there's something new coming from Fuji that I should wait for (or anyone else), I think I'm sold

[Visual Reality]

Really there isn't much to improve on the F30/F31fd.

1. SD Card compatibility
2. IS
3. Burst shooting improvements

That's really it IMO...and none of them would really stop me from recommending it or buying it myself. When you see a camera like this double, or even triple the battery life of all of the competition, take shots so clean you would think its a low-end DSLR, and still maintain such a competitive price it really makes the others look not so attractive. I sized it up against the camera my girlfriend really wants, the Digital ELPH (SD800 IS) and its a total wash.

[moosen34]

Just when I thought that I would be 100% happy with the F31fd, I see this

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0707/07072604fujifilmf50fd.asp#press

F50fd
-SD capable
-Dual Image Stabilization
-12MP
-ISO6400!

$300... What to do???

I have a trip to Maui coming up in August and I plan on taking a lot of pictures

[moosen34]

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/f/finepix_f50fd/index.html

WOW this thing looks awesome...

2.7" Screen is a nice addon as well

[Rooz]

i think i just found my backup P&S. :)

[tim11]

- - - - -
I have a trip to Maui coming up in August and I plan on taking a lot of pictures

It won't be here until September. And we don't know how it performs in real life.
That looks like killer camera indeed. The only thing that worries me is that 12MP. I don't know how such large image result on this new (7th generation) sensor. You can shoot full resolution only to ISO1600 but even if you can shoot 3MP on ISO6400 that will be more than enough for normal prints. The stupid Fuji link only put ONE sample image on ISO100.
A Fuji with high ISO and OIS. hmmmm.............. Sounds likes a dream come true. ;) But again what do I do with my current cameras?
Equally impressive is the S8000fd.

[Visual Reality]

Just when I thought that I would be 100% happy with the F31fd, I see this

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0707/07072604fujifilmf50fd.asp#press

F50fd
-SD capable
-Dual Image Stabilization
-12MP
-ISO6400!

$300... What to do???

I have a trip to Maui coming up in August and I plan on taking a lot of pictures
I JUST bought an F31fd last night for my girlfriend. I am now wondering if I should refuse the shipment when it arrives and wait for the F50?

Man and all this time I was thinking it would be perfect if they made an F31fd with OIS and SD compatibility...and they did!

Although I will say I am VERY disappointed in the battery life...one of the main selling points was the huge 500+shot battery life that blew away the competition. Now they went and cut that in half...

So what we have is:

12.0 effective Megapixel SuperCCD HR sensor (7th generation)
F2.8-5.1, 3X optical zoom lens, equivalent to 35 - 105 mm
Optical image stabilization (CCD-shift type)
2.7" LCD display with 230,000 pixels
Full manual controls
Can crank ISO to 6400 at 3MP resolution or ISO 3200 at 4MP; full res stops at ISO 1600
New face detection 2.0 can detect faces at various angles -- even profiles; this is the only one of the five cameras with this enhanced FD feature
New auto redeye removal feature
New portrait enhancer feature "minimizes fine lines and small skin blemishes"
New "GUI Micro Thumbnail" feature lets you view photos in groups of 100
Records movies at 640 x 480 (25 fps) with sound
IrSimple infrared feature lets you beam photos to compatible devices
25MB onboard memory + xD/SD/SDHC memory card slot
Uses NP-40 lithium-ion battery; 230 shots per charge (quite a drop compared to the F30)
Ships in September for $300

So let's see...we doubled the image size which we all know is a no-no for picture quality. Roughly the same lens. Added a few neat features such as micro thumbnails, better face detection, and a slightly larger screen. We cut the battery life in half. The F30/F31 were capable of 580 shots. On the plus side, we added Optical Image Stabilization.

The three factors I weight the heaviest are (when considering this camera is a gift):

+ Optical Image Stabilization
Picture Quality (low noise and good ISO performance) + or - ?
- Battery Life

So it's a wash...is it an upgrade or not?

[moosen34]

I know, I JUST bought the F31fd last night for my girlfriend. I am now unsure what to do?

I know man. I was thinking of getting the F31fd for my trip and giving it to my girlfriend once this comes out... I was about to checkout