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View Full Version : Nikon D70 better pic quality than 20D?



kave
12-18-2004, 03:08 PM
I just ordered a 20D a couple of days ago. I have a Canon PowerShot G1 that is broken so it was time for me to buy me a new camera. Since I already know canons interface and the controls I thought I would go with the 20D.
It was DCrsrc's review that really convinced me to make my order. As it was in the old days with the G1 btw.
I have looked at some other reviews of the Nikon D70 and 20D and some of the sample photos bother me. The Nikon is 600$ cheaper than the 20D here so I very much like to get a better camera fo that price.
Look at these test shots from Steve's Digicams.
First up is canon 20d

Image removed, see below:

Compare this with the Nikon 70d:

Image removed, see below:

To me the difference is huge, the Nikon quality can't be compared with the complete lack of quality of the Canon. The canon is really unsharp, the colors are saturated, look at the wooden parts. They don't like like wood in the Caon shots. The Colo's of the surfing boards is also extremely bad, especially compared to Nikon.
No one else noticed this?

bkeske
12-23-2004, 11:14 PM
I don't think you can make a final judgement from these two shots alone. I was Nikon user for many many years prior to purchasing a 20D, so I am no biased historical Canon user.

The reason's to change to Canon were many, but one of the things I have been impressed with was the Canon's digital SLR's is the image quality vs. Nikon, but that is very subjective. I also poured over both Nikon and Canon reviews (and examples) at dpreview.com prior to making 'the jump'.

The examples you posted (and you could have reduced the sizes) could be manipulated in photoshop to achive similar results, and these differences could have been one of exposure settings, metering, focus points, lens quality, etc.

But if there is one thing that I see in these images is 'noise' in the Nikon shot, and the lack of 'noise' in the Canon shot. I have seen this issue in many Nikon examples, and that issue was one of the things that has always gotten my attention. To me it is much harder to get rid of noise than it is to sharpen/manipulate the other charachteristics of a 'shot'. By the time you get rid of the 'digital noise' you have degraded the image a great deal IMO.

I have been shotting the 20D in RAW, and and incredibly pleased with the results. I have kept my Nikkor glass until I was able to put the Canon through it's paces, but I will be selling it off those Nikkor's very soon and start saving for some 'L' glass.

I've been 'converted' ;)

D70FAN
12-24-2004, 09:15 AM
I don't think you can make a final judgement from these two shots alone. I was Nikon user for many many years prior to purchasing a 20D, so I am no biased historical Canon user.

The reason's to change to Canon were many, but one of the things I have been impressed with was the Canon's digital SLR's is the image quality vs. Nikon, but that is very subjective. I also poured over both Nikon and Canon reviews (and examples) at dpreview.com prior to making 'the jump'.

The examples you posted (and you could have reduced the sizes) could be manipulated in photoshop to achive similar results, and these differences could have been one of exposure settings, metering, focus points, lens quality, etc.

But if there is one thing that I see in these images is 'noise' in the Nikon shot, and the lack of 'noise' in the Canon shot. I have seen this issue in many Nikon examples, and that issue was one of the things that has always gotten my attention. To me it is much harder to get rid of noise than it is to sharpen/manipulate the other charachteristics of a 'shot'. By the time you get rid of the 'digital noise' you have degraded the image a great deal IMO.

I have been shotting the 20D in RAW, and and incredibly pleased with the results. I have kept my Nikkor glass until I was able to put the Canon through it's paces, but I will be selling it off those Nikkor's very soon and start saving for some 'L' glass.

I've been 'converted' ;)

Along with the lack of noise (20D), is the lack of detail. One of the reasons I chose the D70 was just that. Canons (dSLR) images always look a little flat (and I have used most of the Canon dSLR's), especially when printed in larger formats (I use an Epson 2000P at 13 x 19).

The noise in the D70 example above is pretty bad, and I have never seen this in my D70 shots at ISO 200 (which is the setting, in this case, according to the EXIF info). Just for giggles, I did run the image through Noise Ninja, and it easily fixed the noise problem without loss of detail. Hey, post processing is post processing, but you can't add detail that isn't there (ala the 20D shot). So BKeske's point/observation here is well taken.

The world is full of compromises, and the digital camera world is no exception. For $500 more I would expect the 20D to take beter images, which is why I did not jump ship for the 20D. It's a great camera, but not $500 better than the D70 or even $700 better than the DReb.

I am not dissing the 20D, it is a fine camera, just trying to keep things in perspective.

As a final note: L lenses (Canon) and D lenses (Nikkor) are a little out of my budget range, but if you learn the characteristics of a given lens you should be able to work around the shortcommings of consumer grade lenses. Even the pro glass has this problem (but to a far lesser degree).

Bon Foto. ;)

bkeske
12-24-2004, 11:18 PM
George, some good points, but again, this is all so subjective, and there are so many reasons for the differences in the shots posted.

Again, I think dpreview.com does a much better job comparing these issues in a more controlled setting. And in those tests the Canon's have actually beat the Nikon DSLR's in detail and much better at giving a 'true color' image.

That said, of all the camera's I have/have had, my favorite may be my Rollei 35 SE. To me, the Canon's 'image quality' seems to be closer to 'that' quality overall, and yes, there seems to be a 'soft edge' look to the Rollei too. I have grown to kinda like that. Nikon, in general, seems to be more 'hard edged', but even the incredible lens like the Nikkor 85mm give that 'softer' image as well. But that is an exception rather than the rule. Listen, nothing wrong with that, I have owned more than one Nikon over the years and I looked at the 70 and D2h very very closely until the 20D was released. It was a tough decision, but my gut kept telling me Canon was doing something Nikon wasn't, and those things 'spoke to me'.

I'm sure not looking back questioning my decision, I love the 20D.

But I still think it's unwise to make overall judgements based on these two pictures. To each their own, what is a strength for one may be a weakness to another.

bkeske
12-24-2004, 11:39 PM
George, here is a good 'example' that shows both detail and quality I am speaking to above. Obviously the Canon has no problem with detail and getting true color right. This was posted at dpreview.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bkeske2/images/040919-1106-34.jpg

The actual photo can be seen here in it's origional size:

http://img2.dpreview.com/gallery/canoneos20d_samples/originals/040919-1106-34.jpg (dpreview link)

D70FAN
12-26-2004, 03:35 PM
George, here is a good 'example' that shows both detail and quality I am speaking to above. Obviously the Canon has no problem with detail and getting true color right. This was posted at dpreview.
The actual photo can be seen here in it's origional size:


I'm having a fair amount of trouble reading the wide format caused by the original attached photos.

I've seen pretty much everything written on the 20D, including the dpreview shots. Techically it is a good camera. But there is something missing beyond detail. Although I woud add that for an 8MP image there is a fair amount of detail missing in the shot you attached, and I would bet that there is a bit of noise cancellation going on inside the camera.

We could debate this into the ground, and I really don't have the want to do so, so you win. Buy that $1600 20D. It's an ok camera, but just not enough so to make me drop an additional $500 over the D70.

MrSleep
12-26-2004, 05:14 PM
Both of these photos have been taken at different times, hence the less contrasty shot of the D70 with the clouds acting as a natural diffuser giving vibrancy in colors.

Contrsat takes away color,
Look at shadows of the boats (on top) falling from the yellow on to the blue!

kave
12-30-2004, 01:51 AM
I removed the original Images due to various complaints, if you like to see them head over to http://www.steves-digicams.com
Here is a cut from Steves Digicams sample pictures, this is the EOS20D:

http://kave.kicks-ass.net/cameras/D20/IMG_0339small.jpg
It's really bad, looks like the image is out of focus, but all Steves 20D images look like this.
This is the Nikon D70:

http://kave.kicks-ass.net/cameras/D70/dsc_1350_nef-small.jpg

Look how much sharper it is.
Please head over to Steves Digicams and compare the samples, it's really a big difference.
The 20D: http://www.steves-digicams.com/2004_reviews/20d_samples.html

The Nikon 70D: http://www.steves-digicams.com/2004_reviews/nikon_d70_samples.html

kave
12-30-2004, 02:01 AM
Another example from Steves Digicams, I must admit the D70 have alot of noise which the 20D seem to lack.
The 20D:
http://kave.kicks-ass.net/cameras/D20/IMG_0266skalad.jpg

The 70D:
http://kave.kicks-ass.net/cameras/D70/dsc_1380_nefskalad.jpg

kave
12-30-2004, 02:06 AM
Both of these photos have been taken at different times, hence the less contrasty shot of the D70 with the clouds acting as a natural diffuser giving vibrancy in colors.

Contrsat takes away color,
Look at shadows of the boats (on top) falling from the yellow on to the blue!
It might be true, but all Steves test images have the same unsharp washed out look when taken from the 20D.

kave
12-30-2004, 02:08 AM
I'm having a fair amount of trouble reading the wide format caused by the original attached photos.

I've seen pretty much everything written on the 20D, including the dpreview shots. Techically it is a good camera. But there is something missing beyond detail. Although I woud add that for an 8MP image there is a fair amount of detail missing in the shot you attached, and I would bet that there is a bit of noise cancellation going on inside the camera.

We could debate this into the ground, and I really don't have the want to do so, so you win. Buy that $1600 20D. It's an ok camera, but just not enough so to make me drop an additional $500 over the D70.
I have fixed the wide photos for ya :)
I win? You mean the D70 actually takes better images? For that amount of money I don't won't an OK camera, I would like to have an extremely good camera that will last longer than a compact digicam.

MrSleep
12-30-2004, 02:33 AM
I dont know what Steve's trying to do. :confused:
its not like he was on his last roll or something, he could of snapped another pic..
is he pickin out the worst of the 20D & the best of the D70 for comparason?
Its pretty obvious that the 20D can do better, I mean, I could do better with my Canon A95 Powershot after having had a look at that out of focus shot.

Maybe his on Nikon's payroll.

bkeske
12-30-2004, 07:35 PM
I've read Steve's reviews and studied all his shot examples between a variety of camera's....usually Nikon vs. Canon.

I sure would not say he is exactly biased, but he sure does not maintain strict controlled tests like dpreview.com does. Dpreview.com, IMO, performs the best tests of all the reviews I have seen. When you stack the D70 vs. the 20D, to me, there is a clear winner.

If I would have had to make a decision based on the shots included in this thread, I would have bought the Nikon and kept all my Nikkor's in service. But I studied more rigid and controlled tests (over the last three years) and 'pitched' the Nikon for the Canon because of subtle, and not so subtle, differences which are important to me.

If you like the D70, buy it. If you like the 20D buy it. They are both great camera's, but both can be beat in some way by other camera's, so pick your poison/winner....this is becoming a tired arguement, but one which is disengenuous given the examples shared here.

If you want to make a solid arguement, I'm afraid you have proved very little.

kave
12-31-2004, 12:52 AM
I've read Steve's reviews and studied all his shot examples between a variety of camera's....usually Nikon vs. Canon.

I sure would not say he is exactly biased, but he sure does not maintain strict controlled tests like dpreview.com does. Dpreview.com, IMO, performs the best tests of all the reviews I have seen. When you stack the D70 vs. the 20D, to me, there is a clear winner.


If you want to make a solid arguement, I'm afraid you have proved very little.

The point with my thread is that I did have a look at Steves pages after I ordered the 20D, and I thought I might cancel my order since the D70 seem to be a better camera for 700$ less than the 20D. But your opinion have made me feel more comfortable with my order. I am in no pisition to use a D70 or a 20D for a week or so to really see which is the right choice for me, I just like Canon's because I am used to them.
Cheers