Cannon XTi vs. Nikon D80, ready to purchase

[bananafish]

I apologize if this topic has been covered some 100x over... "xti" and "D80" seem to be too short as search terms!

I have been a collector of digital cameras for a while now, with cameras from 1Mp to 8 Mp, from Sony (my point and shoot favorite) to Casio (big mistake). I'm looking to get into the D-SLR arena, and have narrowed the applicable brands down to Nikon and Cannon (although i have some brand loyalty with a 2000k+ Sony video camera and a Sony HDTV, not to mention a handful of point-and-shoots, i don't feel that they're up to par with Nikon and Cannon in the SLR arena). I'm specifically looking at the Rebel XTi and the D80. The Rebel XTi seems to have better image quality, and the D80 seems to have better "everything else". That, to me, makes the choice very difficult. So which to choose? Here's my sheet:


Budget

* I don't want $$$ to be the limiting factor. Both of these cameras are within my price range, with the D80 being more of a stretch, but not really a big deal. I'll probably buy a prime lense to go with either, and save up for others later.

Size

* I'm used to carrying smaller point and shoots, and most of these pics will be from hiking and outdoor trips, etc. Plus, i have medium sized hands (glove size), so the smaller XTi sounds better to me. I understand SLR's are big, but smaller still = better.

Features

* I don't really care about resolution, since i really feel that with the current chips in cameras, they've just maxed out. There is only so much you can divide up a chip before the noise obtained reduces the resolution back down again. Diminishing returns, too, $ wise. But, each of these are 10Mp, so i guess that's a non-issue.

* I have found in the past that i rarely touch the zoom button for the kinds of outdoor photography i take. I'm more interested in wide angle than telephoto, and Macro is just a novelty to me with little application in my environment/interests. I'm contemplating a fixed 50mm f/1.4 prime to start and learn with.

* Image quality is probably my #1 most important thing. Being burned recently by a very noisy Casio 8Mp, i just can't stand to look at another noisy or blurry picture. I want the silky smoothness and sharpness together that D-SLR's seem to deliver. Accurate color is a plus, but honestly, color that "pops" is even more important (in other words, if it is not 100% true to life but makes for a more dramatic picture, i'm all for it).

* I'll probably start by relying on automatic controls and settings, but plan to learn a manual approach quickly. Already ordered a few books including "Understanding Exposure".

General Usage

* The camera will split its time between indoor potentially lowlight photos and outdoor potentially very bright photos. We live in Colorado and are out in all seasons, including winter where sunglasses are more necessary than in summer (snow is BRIGHT!). Hiking, snowshoing, etc. Non-macro outdoor photography, secnery, generally no zoom "point of view shots". Eventually some use for specialized wide angle or telephoto lenses, but not for a while, and not as a primary objective.

* Yes, i will be making prints of various sizes, from 4x6 for the scrapbook to prints for the wall. Also, internet-based viewing is important, as i have a site of outdoor recreational photos that i share with friends.

* Indoor photos always seem to be low light photos, so yes. The camera will probably spend 20% of its time indoors. (Thus the f/1.4 prime rather than a f/1.8)

* No action photography planned.

Miscellaneous

* Like i mentioned above, i do like Sony, but feel that Nikon and Cannon rule the D-SLR arena. Thus, i'm looking at the XTi vs. the D80.

Any advice or input would be appreciated. I should mention that i'm leaning towards the XTi, but any votes for the D80 would be heavily considered, as would any outside contenders.
For an example of the kinds of photos we take, please check out: http://www.teamalpine.net/trips/06November18.htm and http://www.teamalpine.net/trips/06November19.htm (just 1 trip, some indoor some outdoor) as well as http://www.teamalpine.net/trips/06May07.htm for summer pics. No, i'm not a great photographer.... i realize this. Not bragging rights, just some representative examples (taken with my favorite 2 MP Sony from 5 years ago! :-))
I would appreciate your time and consideration!
Kind Regards,
Matt

[fionndruinne]

Have you handled both of these cameras? Yes, the XTi is smaller, and compact is good, but the real problem with the XTi size is the grip, which is just too darn short up-and-down. i.e. there is only room for three fingers, and the pinkie has to dangle. That's with my hands, which are fairly medium-sized.

[bananafish]

Yes, i have held the XTi, and found it to be comfortable. *However*, this was in a line of 10 people at Sams, with no D80 to compare it to, so the whole experience was a bit rushed. ;-)
I hate to go into a camera place and take up their time when i fully intend to buy online. :-(

[fionndruinne]

Ah, just go to a major electronics outlet. They're not hurting for cash; their employees just kind of wander around listlessly all the time anyway.

Best Buy is a good place. I was able to handle and shoot floor models of everything from a Nikon D40 and Canon XTi up to a 30D and a D200 (this is what really sold me on the D40, incidentally. I was planning on an ultrazoom, specifically the Sony H5, which looks quite snazzy online in photos, but turned out to be a totally weak-feeling piece of cheap plastic... and the floor model didn't even work. I fell in love with the size, handling and shutter sound of the D40, though. Aesthetically it was wonderful and was obviously capable of such better photos).

Of course, whichever camera you choose will come to be comfortable for you, but some have better potential than others for becoming ultra-good-handling, which means quicker to the eye, and better aligned fast shots.

[coldrain]

The XTi is smaller and lighter. It also is a bit better IQ wise (sensor a bit less noise, a bit smoother in gradual tones), at ISO 400 and 800 in JPEG and RAW, and at ISO 1600 in RAW.
It has mirror lock up, which the D80 lacks.
It comes with a good RAW convertor, handy when you do not have Photoshop CS2 or Lightroom or some other software that can convert RAW in high quality. The D80 does not come with good RAW convertor, it will need extra $150 for Nikon's RAW convertor.

Canon lenses are usually a bit more affordable, and often also a tad better.
I prefer the Canon lens line-up, but that can vary from person to person.

Both are good and capable cameras.

[Rooz]

i went thru a similar process 4 months ago. i have a different view to coldy.

key reasons that i went for the d80:

2 seperate command dials to use for allocating shutter speed and aperture easier.
has spot metering, (xti not sure)
11pt AF, (xti is 9 i think)
imo slightly better metering and WB
much brighter, larger and better quality viewfinder
seperate LCD status screen on top of cam for shot settings which is excellent to use in bright light and glare, (snow !!!), and i find easier to use in general than the full LCD screen
the LCD protective cover is a nice touch which i now find invaluable.
imo the IQ out of the d80 is better for me str8 out of the cam, expecially in raw. but this is personal, there is essentially bugger all difference.
built in auto-focus assist lamp, no need for raise flash
nikon creative lighting system where you can use wireless IR remote flashes
better ergonomics and "feel" in the hands; the xti is too small and plasticky a feel for me personally.
imo a much nicer, simpler menu system with onboard help menus.
user selected lockable autofocus points simply by using the dpad where you can select your point of focus from the 11pt auto focus system rather than the camera deciding. (not sure if the xti has this??) i use this ALOT.

advantages of the xti:
cheaper
lighter and smaller which is a plus for some people, not for me.
slightly better iso performance over 1000, (not 400).
included RAW software, (but this is rarely used medium to long term as it is very ordinary, people normally use a better RAW converter and post processing anyway.)
dust reduction system, (debatable on its effectivness)

i do not agree with the generalisation that canon lens have better IQ. that is not correct. there are great lens in both formats, none of them have the perfect lineup. eg: the 50mm nikkor primes are better but the 85mm canon primes are better. possibly they are a tad more affordable but i'm not sure ??the nikon kit lens' are also significantly better than the canon ones.

besides which, the best affordable starter options for faster glass are the sigma 18-50mm f2.8/ tamron 18-50mm f2.8, so if you are going to get better glass than the kit lens from the get-go the kit lens almost becomes a moot point.

one thing i do agree with coldy on is that both are excellent choices and you will not dissapointed with either. also consider the pentax k10. most of all good luck with your choice and am sure you will enjoy whatevre dslr you pick. :)

[cwat212]

if you have never had a SLR they will all feel a little wierd at first.

After a week any of the cameras will feel at home in your hand. Please do not buy because it is a little wierd at first.....

I hold a XTI for hours chasing my kids....with a pointer on the shutter and 3 on the grip plus a thumb.
I have read this a hundred times and it is not true.....No dangling pinky finger.... I am 6,1 with above normal hands. NOT UNCOMFORTABLE AT ALL!! Only people that own other cameras say this...but I guess only people that own the XTi say the opposite... I honestly can tell you that it is very comfortable in my hands. Full hold. Promise.

D80 is an awesome camera but so is the XTi....

XTi kit lens plus another great lens equals the cost of a D80 kit only.

[swgod98]

I actually had the chance to try the XTi this past weekend when I was shooting a swim event with my D80. My brother snatched the D80 and one of the swim parents offered to let me use her XTi :D

The first thing I noticed when I clicked the shutter was the sound. Very different from the D80 (which I like a lot). But, the XTi had more of an electronic sound to it (which I liked).

The viewfinder isn't as bad as it sounds on paper, but I was shooting on a bright and sunny day. Indoors and low lighting is where it's brightness will become noticeable.

Holding it also wasn't as bad as it was when I first tried the camera in hand months ago. But, it was still small for me. I could see this as a huge plus for certain people. But, I also feel it could be a huge negative if a larger lens is attached.

The XTi is a great camera; I wouldn't begrudge it. But, I'd have to stick up for the D80 (overall) and all it has to offer.

Still, given your criteria (of size)...the XTi might be the better choice for you.

[bananafish]

Ah, just go to a major electronics outlet. They're not hurting for cash; their employees just kind of wander around listlessly all the time anyway. Best Buy is a good place....

Hahaha.... that's actually what i ended up doing (before reading these responses) and was going to post something to the same effect; you have beaten me to it!! Very true about the wandering...

So i was surprised to see the more expensive models at Best Buy, but not surprised to see that they were all overpriced by at least $200! But i digress... after holding both, i do find the XTi much more comfortable (maybe because i'm used to pinching cigarette-pack-sized cameras). It honestly felt more comfortable in my hands. I was confused by the controls of each, and plan to spend a bit more time with both, since that is (IMHO, from paper) one of the main pros of the D80 (as others here have said). I liked the LCD cover for the D80 as was mentioned here... small detail but i can see the benefit in that immediately. I also found the build of the D80 slightly better than the XTi, in such places as the popup flash (D80 snaps up, XTi kind of bounces, again, details...) but overall didn't notice too much of a difference. Furthermore, i liked the fact that the D80 LCD showed overexposed areas in the instant review after taking a photograph; the XTi may well have done that, but it wasn't set that way and i couldn't figure out how. I plan to spend a bit more time with the stats of each on paper, and another longer look at both in person before i make my decision. Right now, it is between the seemingly nicer controls and much nicer display(s) of the Nikon vs. the better overall feel of the Cannon (size/shape-wise). I have read each response here and appreciate all of the great and kind input from both sides. This is definitely a place i'll be hanging around well after the purchase!
Kind Regards,
matt