What to do?, What to do!?

[Nickcanada]

Alright, so I got this e-mail yesterday, and I have no idea how to respond!


Hi Nick,

I am Jacquie's Mom. I love the photo you took of her at the 88.5 contest and I recently saw the comic version on your myspace account. You are a great photographer! I would love to get copies of these. What are your rates for a colour 5 by 7, an 8 by 10, or bigger (poster size)?

Sincerely,

Giselle


I'd just givem' to her for cost, who knows maybe I'll get a wedding out of it or a good referral. What should I suggest about picture size though. Poster size!? damn I don't think my XT has the gutts for that!

Any thoughts on conservation prints? and what do you guys do for framing large prints?

I want to come across as professional as possible how would you pros respond?

[forno]

Alright, so I got this e-mail yesterday, and I have no idea how to respond!





I'd just givem' to her for cost, who knows maybe I'll get a wedding out of it or a good referral. What should I suggest about picture size though. Poster size!? damn I don't think my XT has the gutts for that!

Any thoughts on conservation prints? and what do you guys do for framing large prints?

I want to come across as professional as possible how would you pros respond?


I have no idea but I will be watching this thread for educated responses

[XaiLo]

Don't do it for cost or it will come back to bite you, check your local area for the going rate. If you want to discount that price fine maybe 5% then. your XT should at least be good for a 13x19. hth

[jwhite]

Don't do it for cost or it will come back to bite you, check your local area for the going rate. If you want to discount that price fine maybe 5% then. your XT should at least be good for a 13x19. hth

Yeah, I would think at least 12x18 or 16x20. I printed off a 11x14 with my 10D and it looks really nice. I upsampled it with RawShooter before I sent it off to be printed though. Also most times with larger prints, people will be looking at it from a distance and not a couple of inches in front of it.

Jason

[cwphoto]

I charge AUD44 for an 8x12", AUD66 for a 12x18", AUD99 for a 16x24", and AUD132 for a 20x30".

All unframed.

[forno]

I charge AUD44 for an 8x12", AUD66 for a 12x18", AUD99 for a 16x24", and AUD132 for a 20x30".

All unframed.

All including GST too:p

[coldrain]

The resolution of your XT is fine for big prints. It is more a question of correct focus and a sharp lens that count here, you can even make big prints with a 4mp 1D without any problem.
You do not even need to "upsample", you will notice that when you print it on glossy paper. Pixels will not show up even on A0, and have you ever looked up close to those huge billboard posters? That will tell you something about the importance of pixel resolution.

About price, Xailo means that if you do it just for cost, mouth to mouth may make other people expect big prints for little too. So unless you can make clear you are doing a favor and that it normally has a higher cost, it may not be a good idea. If you can make that clear, it of course will create goodwill.

[cdifoto]

The XT can do 20x30s with relative ease from a good printer/lab (I've sold them with shots using Bigma) if you get good sharpness and composition in-camera. IE no heavy cropping of the shot.

And don't sell for cost. As said before it will set the bar low and you'll end up basically losing your shirt on it down the road. After all it's not just the cost of the print but the time spent processing it and preparing it for print that you'll have out. That time can add up fast.

Fun is one thing, obligation is another.

As for my prints, they're currently $10 for a 4x6, $20 for a 5x7, $30 for an 8x10, and $60 for an 11x14. I don't explicitly offer 20x30s since I'd have to send away for those, but I can make them available if requested for $100. As CW, mine are unframed as well.

[adam75south]

nick don't sell yourself short buddy. believe it or not, charging her a decent amount will actually BETTER your chance of picking up a wedding. you might oughtta make some business cards as well.

[Nickcanada]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice guys. This really threw me off. It's forcing me to act like a pro before I feel ready. The chick Jacquie just started in a new band and they want me to be there for their first show, ahhhh! What next promo pics?! I know I should be excited about it but I feel like such a hack.

It may not seem like it all the time but I do have very high standards for myself, to the point that I'm never satisfied with my work. Which makes it hard for me to feel comfortable asking $100 for a print. By doing it for cost it sort of relives the pressure to perform. If they don't like it, who cares.

What can I say.... I'm no business man. :(

It was this pic they wanted, by the way. Not very sharp and if I wanted to be satisfied doing the job I would need to spend some time removing the bottle correctly....

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/nickandaline/Jaquie_filtered-goodint.jpg

[cdifoto]

It may not seem like it all the time but I do have very high standards for myself, to the point that I'm never satisfied with my work. Which makes it hard for me to feel comfortable asking $100 for a print. By doing it for cost it sort of relives the pressure to perform. If they don't like it, who cares.

You're thinking about it from the wrong side. Think more along the lines of "If they don't like my prices, who cares."

You're not the Print Fairy...it is not your calling in life to provide images to people and only break even doing it.

[Nickcanada]

You just gave me an idea for my business cards....

Nick Brownrigg

The Print Fairy

[adam75south]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice guys. This really threw me off. It's forcing me to act like a pro before I feel ready. The chick Jacquie just started in a new band and they want me to be there for their first show, ahhhh! What next promo pics?! I know I should be excited about it but I feel like such a hack.

It may not seem like it all the time but I do have very high standards for myself, to the point that I'm never satisfied with my work. Which makes it hard for me to feel comfortable asking $100 for a print. By doing it for cost it sort of relives the pressure to perform. If they don't like it, who cares.

What can I say.... I'm no business man. :(

It was this pic they wanted, by the way. Not very sharp and if I wanted to be satisfied doing the job I would need to spend some time removing the bottle correctly....

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/nickandaline/Jaquie_filtered-goodint.jpg
first of all, let me say, i need to know this girl.

second, that picture is awesome and is well worth $40 for an 8x10. if you're going to be successful at this photography thing...if any of us will be....we have to start learning how to sell.

[Nickcanada]

I just got off the phone with a local custom printer and I'm getting excited. I've heard great things about him and I'll be going down to show him the pic tomorrow. If I know I can get kick ass results I'll be more then happy charging her. One of my greatest fears comes from my crappy PP skills and my non calibrated monitor. Also the fact that I've only ever made 8X12 prints before.

[te1221]

that was a very impressive shot... I can't tell that its blurry but then again I'm posting from my phone... from what I can say the color and lighting is awesome.

I think all of us suffer from the problem of never knowing how much to charge. I go through that all the time.

[r3g]

I have no idea but I will be watching this thread for educated responses

+1 Im bookmarking this thread for future purposes.. BTW thats a really nice shot Nick.

[some guy]

did u get her to sign any release forms? That should be one of the first things to do. Better protect yourself legally quick! Goes to show the XT are very useable in low light performance!

[nqjudo]

I would charge the average going rate. adam75south is right. If you charge appropriately for your services, you become empowered. Otherwise you run the risk of not being taken seriously. Judging by that shot, you certainly should be... taken seriously, that is.

[cdifoto]

did u get her to sign any release forms? That should be one of the first things to do. Better protect yourself legally quick! Goes to show the XT are very useable in low light performance!

You don't need a release if you're selling it to the person or parent of the person that's photographed.

[XaiLo]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice guys. This really threw me off. It's forcing me to act like a pro before I feel ready. The chick Jacquie just started in a new band and they want me to be there for their first show, ahhhh! What next promo pics?! I know I should be excited about it but I feel like such a hack.

It may not seem like it all the time but I do have very high standards for myself, to the point that I'm never satisfied with my work. Which makes it hard for me to feel comfortable asking $100 for a print. By doing it for cost it sort of relives the pressure to perform. If they don't like it, who cares.

What can I say.... I'm no business man. :(

It was this pic they wanted, by the way. Not very sharp and if I wanted to be satisfied doing the job I would need to spend some time removing the bottle correctly....

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/nickandaline/Jaquie_filtered-goodint.jpg

SLAP! SLAP! Nick I've never regreted charging full price, but I can guarantee you everytime I've called myself doing a favor I have regreted it in one fashion or another. Granted that was not a studio pic but let me introduce you to the concept of supply and demand. Now mom could go out and and spend a couple of hundred or so on a shoot, to get what she wants replicated or you can just sell it to her for $40 - 80 bucks or so... please just do mom a favor and sell her the pic that she wants bottle and all it's a live pic after all and she knows that. Nick I don't want to have this conversation again OK. lol :D now be happy and go make some money kid do us proud. ;)

Edit: And it really does not look like it needs sharpening.

[some guy]

You don't need a release if you're selling it to the person or parent of the person that's photographed.

u're thinking too limited! think further down the road! think fans.... ;)

anyhoo check this somewhat related topic:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=302474

[cdifoto]

u're thinking too limited! think further down the road! think fans.... ;)

anyhoo check this somewhat related topic:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=302474

Ah yes. I was thinking you meant for the immediate sale.

[XaiLo]

Interesting read.

[Nickcanada]

I'm loving all the info posted, and of course the nice comments:D Thanks all.

So what would a model release form look like? I'm going to do a search but if any of you know of a good link or have some essential knowledge, I'm all ears.

[XaiLo]

Try this Nick,

http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/contact/SPL_SampleModelRelease.pdf

[cwphoto]

That is a very saleable image - full whack Mate. :)

[Nickcanada]

Thanks guys! Just sent out an e-mail...

Two 5x7 for $40

One 8x12 for $40

One 13.5x20 for $75

One 24x36 for $130

I'll keep ya posted.

[cdifoto]

Thanks guys! Just sent out an e-mail...

Two 5x7 for $40

One 8x12 for $40

One 13.5x20 for $75

One 24x36 for $130

I'll keep ya posted.

Yep let us know. Worst case she says no thanks and you're out nothing. :)

Best case she orders and comes away with the feeling that you're a go-to photog because you have enough confidence to charge "high" (in her eyes) print rates.

[Vich]

That is a very saleable image - full whack Mate. :)

+1

Don't worry about it being a little noisy or OOF. It's a gritty capture and I'd rather see a little noise than some Neat Image smoother-over. Just IMHO.

[Nickcanada]

Thanks guys!

So after I sent out my e-mail I went over to my myspace account and this is what I find...

Hey Nick

Long time. We're wondering if you'd be available to shoot our CD release. It's a 2 part affair: Private party on Friday April 20, public show on Saturday April 21. both nights are 8-11pm, although we'd all be there earlier obviously.

If you could let me know a) if your available, and b) how much you'll charge, that would be super fantastic!

cheers

Stuart



That is the band who won 300 000 dollars last year. Remember these guys?

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_1680.jpg

So now I really need some business cards!

So now what do I charge for that! oh man, this is crazy! I have a house to move into in May and my wedding in June.... CRAZYNESS

I was thinking 10 bucks an hour and supply a cd with web images. I really don't know. I don't even know what kind of party this will be. I can just imagine the crapy lighting now!

I'm ready for another SLAP, XaiLo.

[cdifoto]

Thanks guys!

So after I sent out my e-mail I went over to my myspace account and this is what I find...



That is the band who won 300 000 dollars last year. Remember these guys?

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Tims%20Myth/IMG_1680.jpg

So now I really need some business cards!

So now what do I charge for that! oh man, this is crazy! I have a house to move into in May and my wedding in June.... CRAZYNESS

I was thinking 10 bucks an hour and supply a cd with web images. I really don't know. I don't even know what kind of party this will be. I can just imagine the crapy lighting now!

I'm ready for another SLAP, XaiLo.

10 bucks an hour? Way too cheap my friend! :eek:

[forno]

$10/hr:eek:

I would have thought it would be a fixed fee to cover an event, plus prints

[Nickcanada]

OK, OK, what do I know!? I just threw out a number. How do you stick a price on your services?

[cdifoto]

OK, OK, what do I know!? I just threw out a number. How do you stick a price on your services?

Find out how long it is, how many prints they'd want, etc.

[cwphoto]

Time and materials.

As a guide, here's what I charge for commercial work:
Quarter day (up to two hours): AUD400
Half-day (up to five hours): AUD750
Full-day (up to ten hours): AUD1,200

Then I add a price to edit/supply images to media:
Up to 50: AUD100
Up to 200: AUD200
Up to 1,000: AUD750

Plus expenses.

[te1221]

for a 3 to 4 hr event I would hope you charge at least 150 in your pocket or more.

think about the processing time you have to do, assuming you're going to shoot the concert in raw

[Nickcanada]

Ya, two nights, 8-11pm both nights, about 6 hours. I'd probably get there an hour early. I'd be happy with 250 bucks for the two nights.

What do you guys do for pictures. I think I would put web sized photos on cd for them and if they wanted prints I would charge them accordingly per print.

If I do give them a CD do I apply limitations on the images?

I guess I should get model release forms for them too eh? If they ever do make it big it would be cool to sell them.


I've also been thinking it would be a great time for a 17-55mm IS.

I would be lost without you guys thanks! where do I send the check?!:D :p

[cwphoto]

Ya, two nights, 8-11pm both nights, about 6 hours. I'd probably get there an hour early. I'd be happy with 250 bucks for the two nights.

What do you guys do for pictures. I think I would put web sized photos on cd for them and if they wanted prints I would charge them accordingly per print.

If I do give them a CD do I apply limitations on the images?

I guess I should get model release forms for them too eh? If they ever do make it big it would be cool to sell them.


I've also been thinking it would be a great time for a 17-55mm IS.

I would be lost without you guys thanks! where do I send the check?!:D :p

Are you sure they will want prints? Jobs like these usually just want to license the IP to incorporate into their own marketing. In which case, you can add on some licensing costs too (then you don't have to stuff around with prints): time, market, usage.

[aparmley]

I can't tell that its blurry but then again I'm posting from my phone...

:confused:

I know I should be excited about it but I feel like such a hack.


I think with the expection of those who never feel anything negative about themselves especially when they should, most pros feel this way too about their own work. . .

Great thread, good read. I was asked to do a senior portrait session too early. I wasn't comfortable and I certainly didn't have enough of a photographic foundation with the understanding of a lot of basics. Having done that shoot kinda ruined it for me or me for it however you want to read into it. I've since turned down plenty of other opportunities after I gained a lot more skills because the bitter taste of that first gig was fresh in my mind. Based on your photographs I'd say you're at a higher skill level than I was for my first. I think whats most important based on what I know and have read are the following points:

1. Fair money for your services regardless of your percieved value - this is hard to do for the first time.
2. The first couple of paid gigs are going to be rough, you'll make mistakes, more importantly, you'll learn a lot and grow - but this can/will be a painful process if your the type to give yourself a hard time.
3. Make sure you take a few steps back to collect yourself from time to time, get your eyes out of the viewfinder so you don't loose touch with whats going on. Remember to have fun.

Best of luck

[dwgriffi]

My first thought was "It's her Mom. And she loves the pic of her daughter. It's it's a great shot. She doesn't care what you say it costs. She wants it. And she knows less about what it usually costs than you do!" : )


She wants to pay for it, and that legitimizes its value. Then in a week she'll ask for 5 more at the same price. If it was a freebie, then... : )


Good luck! You're in business!

[XaiLo]

Ya, two nights, 8-11pm both nights, about 6 hours. I'd probably get there an hour early. I'd be happy with 250 bucks for the two nights.

What do you guys do for pictures. I think I would put web sized photos on cd for them and if they wanted prints I would charge them accordingly per print.

If I do give them a CD do I apply limitations on the images?

I guess I should get model release forms for them too eh? If they ever do make it big it would be cool to sell them.


I've also been thinking it would be a great time for a 17-55mm IS.

I would be lost without you guys thanks! where do I send the check?!:D :p

SLAP!!! SLAP!!! SLAP!!! Let's see 1)moving 2)wedding ... photo shoot @ $41.66 per hr from a band who made 300k Nick are ya mad SLAP!!! SLAP!!! SLAP!!! At least go a hundred an hour apparently they are already satisfied customers. And if you have any hopes of your wife allowing you to spend countless of hours with your photography habbit she's gonna need a compelling reason to have you continue along your merry way "I have found out money usually works just fine"... and just in case you'rre still not getting it. SLAP!!! SLAP!!! SLAP!!! :D

[te1221]

:confused:


a lot of times I read this board when I'm at school but I'm on my pocketpc... so I can't always tell if a photo is bad... it always looks good on this screen

[Nickcanada]

First a little up date with Giselle (Jacquie's mom), she e-mailed me...

Great! We'll be sure to have your name on the guest list. Be sure to ask for Jacquie if you have any problems at the door. There is no rush with getting pictures yet. I want to think about what size and how many pics I want so I will let you know.

Thanks again and see you Saturday

Giselle


Looking good on that front.


Now the Tim's Myth situation is more complex. I feel like if I want to charge properly and do things right I should be talking to a lawyer first but don't have the time. I don't want to leave Stuart hanging too long without an answer.

I have developed a decent relationship with him and don't want to over charge just because his band has won some money. 'Over charge' is a relative term but for a person who owns mediocre equipment with no back up camera and is not a registered business which means I can not provide a receipt for tax purposes or even as an official expense for the band. I am limited to the price I can ask. I know so little about my leagel obligations and I have no time to research it!

I think I'll ask $450 for the nights work, editing, and supplying a CD of the images. I am very uncomfortable with giving them a Cd with the images with no limitations, but don't know how to go about properly setting limitations and enforcing them.

[XaiLo]

Alright Nick, I take a couple of those back.You really need to start looking at what your competition is charging though. And don't give up all the pics either. :o

[VTEC_EATER]

Honestly, I think its almost imperative you speak with a lawyer about drafting a legal contract.

What if this band takes off? They already won a $300K prize in some show. They must have some sort of talent. The photos that you are going to provide to them, with apparently all the legal rights as well, may become promotional photos. They can sell these , or use them for marketing, and you wont make a dime.

Now, if you are cool with that, then thats cool, however, if you feel that you should get some sort of kick back (residual) for each poster sold/produced, then having a properly prepared legal contract is something you should look into.

[Nickcanada]

Well as nice an idea of creating a lasting classic photo for them to use and make money with is, the reality of the situation might be somewhat less romantic.

I appreciate all your comments XaiLo. :)

I've decided to charge $450 for the two nights shooting, editing, and a CD with web sized images. Prints or full size files would be charged separately per image. I sent him a message yesterday to which he replied...

thanks Nick. I'll be in touch soon to let you know the groups decision. f@#$in democracy. I edited it some for ya.

Still waiting on a reply.

I'm happy with the amount I asked for. If he says yes then I get almost a weeks worth of pay and valuable experience. If he says no then at least I know I didn't sell myself short. Experienced gained and nothing lost, either way.

P.S. No new news on Jacquie. I have a feeling her mom will wanna talk to me tomorrow night. Hopefully she'll place an order at that time.

[Nickcanada]

Oh and if any of ya are interested... Here is Tim's Myth's myspace url... check out their pics to see what my local competition is like. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=51546340&MyToken=20a469a3-803b-4975-8c68-9419f8b48ae1

[XaiLo]

Way ta go Nick... ;) I think your pic rocked those other pics blah :D

[RichNY]

I started taking my nephew for ice skating lessons a few times/week to prepare him for his first ice hockey season which begins at the end of the month (they are tearing down the roller hockey rink to put up Sr. housing in a few weeks)

I've been shooting with the 70-200 f/2.8 on the 1D Mark IIN and have been gaining the confidence of the rink owners to the point where they have agreed to let me set up a shooting platform on the ice to take pictures of my nephew skating during non open sessions. In return they have asked me to take images of 70 figure skaters at an event they will be holding this summer.

I offered to shoot the event for free (I lost my last hobby to a career 25years ago) but they said they wanted to pay so I'll be providing them with (70) 4x6 shots for $350 and have the ability to sell the other images online to parents at various sizes. With these big bucks I'm only out $10k on my equipment and post processing costs:)

Since it clearly wasn't the money I'm thinking that the real reason I agreed to do this was recognizing that attractive skating coaches in tight clothing are much more enjoyable to shoot than birds;) The next step is to start getting them to pose for portraiture.

[Honest Gaza]

First a little up date with Giselle (Jacquie's mom), she e-mailed me...



Looking good on that front.


Now the Tim's Myth situation is more complex. I feel like if I want to charge properly and do things right I should be talking to a lawyer first but don't have the time. I don't want to leave Stuart hanging too long without an answer.

I have developed a decent relationship with him and don't want to over charge just because his band has won some money. 'Over charge' is a relative term but for a person who owns mediocre equipment with no back up camera and is not a registered business which means I can not provide a receipt for tax purposes or even as an official expense for the band. I am limited to the price I can ask. I know so little about my leagel obligations and I have no time to research it!

I think I'll ask $450 for the nights work, editing, and supplying a CD of the images. I am very uncomfortable with giving them a Cd with the images with no limitations, but don't know how to go about properly setting limitations and enforcing them.

I can understand your dilemna here Nick. There's a distinct line between the expectations of a "customer" from a hobbyist photographer, and a professional photographer.

As you have mentioned, if you sell yourself as a professional, you may need to be prepared to accept all of the responsibilities that come with it. Such as, back-up cameras in the event of failure and "guaranteed" end results of a high standard.

I don't mean to scare you....but I'm glad I'm not making the decision.

[Nickcanada]

Way ta go Nick... ;) I think your pic rocked those other pics blah :D

Thanks, they did rock the others didn't they! hehe. :D The other photog around shoots Nikon and does 0 PP. He has some great captures but I think lacks the finishing touches. He also has quite a bit more invested in gear then I do which is quite a confidence boost when I'm able to get some crisper images.

Rich: Congrats! I love shooting for the fun of it, but I also love the pressure of shooting for others. I used to say I always wanted to keep photography a hobby but I'm not even a year into it and I haven't kept that promise to myself. I do love the idea of making a bit of cash to supplement the cost of gear so I guess I can forgive myself. :cool: Oh, and did I mention my fiance hasn't been nagging me as much about swooning over new gear. :D

[Nickcanada]

I can understand your dilemna here Nick. There's a distinct line between the expectations of a "customer" from a hobbyist photographer, and a professional photographer.

As you have mentioned, if you sell yourself as a professional, you may need to be prepared to accept all of the responsibilities that come with it. Such as, back-up cameras in the event of failure and "guaranteed" end results of a high standard.

I don't mean to scare you....but I'm glad I'm not making the decision.

Oh, I'm not scared per se.... nervous, yes... but not scared.... yet. :D I'm not sure but I feel like 450 prices me in a good place especially considering the last time I shot the band I gave them a CD of the images for free, I feel like they owe me one.

I may just pick up a second body if they go ahead with it. I have a wedding to shoot soon too so I really should pick one up... "what's that a new house and a wedding to pay for and you want to buy a new camera?!" sorry your breaking up! I can't hear you, lalalalalalala!

[cwphoto]

Since it clearly wasn't the money I'm thinking that the real reason I agreed to do this was recognizing that attractive skating coaches in tight clothing are much more enjoyable to shoot than birds;) The next step is to start getting them to pose for portraiture.

Need an assistant? :D

[RichNY]

Need an assistant? :D
Peter beat you to it:D

[XaiLo]

I offered to shoot the event for free (I lost my last hobby to a career 25years ago) but they said they wanted to pay so I'll be providing them with (70) 4x6 shots for $350 and have the ability to sell the other images online to parents at various sizes. With these big bucks I'm only out $10k on my equipment and post processing costs:)



lmao that's rich Rich no pun intended. lol

[Nickcanada]

Went to Jacquie's new bands gig yesterday, had a chat with her mom. Very nice lady. She said she's just trying to decide what sizes/quantity she wants and she'll e-mail me next week. Here are a few shots from the gig.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Airplanes%20Of%20Abraham/IMG_9221.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Airplanes%20Of%20Abraham/IMG_9208.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/Airplanes%20Of%20Abraham/IMG_9168.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/livelifelivepics/IMG_9274.jpg

Probably the hardest show I've ever done. There are seven of them and it was packed on and off the stage.

[Nickcanada]

Stuart messaged me back....

Hey Nick

So we talked it over and it looks like were going to have a boatload of people taking pictures (friends, family). After reviewing the purpose of it all we decided that live shots, while good to have, are not a huge focus for this event.
From what I've been told (I know zero about photography) your rates are fairly standard but we feel that we don't have a humongous need for a live photo shoot.
Another event though.
Tara (our manager) loves your stuff btw.
I've put you on the guest list for saturday night so feel free to come check it out!
Peace

Stuart


That's pretty cool of him to write that. I'm sure most of the time I don't get a gig I won't be put on the guest list! Do you think it would be dumb of me to bring my camera to their gig?! lol

I'm still waiting on Jacquie's mom to decide. I'm not worried though. I'm like a drug dealer, I know she'll be back! buahhhahahahahha!

[forno]

Stuart messaged me back....




That's pretty cool of him to write that. I'm sure most of the time I don't get a gig I won't be put on the guest list! Do you think it would be dumb of me to bring my camera to their gig?! lol

I'm still waiting on Jacquie's mom to decide. I'm not worried though. I'm like a drug dealer, I know she'll be back! buahhhahahahahha!


Be carefull they dont back door you for any pics you take if you take up the "name on the door";)

[Nickcanada]

Very true. I'll have to think about how I'll approach this.

[JMWallace]

I would say, don't bring your kit.

If you bring it in and snap some shots, you will inevitably end up giving them some shots. BANG, there goes your credibility.

Not to freak you out, but now you have reached quite a fork in the road. Next event of theirs you go to "just for fun to capture some cool shots"...WHAT do you do with the images??? If you give them away to the band...there goes your credibility again.

One possibility I can see here is to still bring your kit in and take some shots. Honestly, if the event goes well, they will regret not having you there to do it. Especially once they see the results of the unedited point-n-shoot family/friend shots. If they inquire after the fact about the shots, don't release unless the pay the quoted price. Heck, you could even still supply them with a CD, just slap a nice big watermark over each image so they can compare, feel remorse but still not use them unless they pay you for your work.

As far as the legal goes. Definately try to get model releases if you can. If you do work for them it will serve you best in the longrun. You're giving them images of themselves for their own use and it's no big deal. But, if you end up using them there could be issues without the release.

HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Business-Legal-Forms-Photographers-CD-ROM/dp/158115206X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-6856709-9353457?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176993316&sr=1-1)is a link to a book I'd suggest you get. It is a minor investment, but you will find pretty much everything you will need in the way of legal forms + a CD with the documents so you can customize them to your needs.

As far as pricing, I think your $75/hour was pretty fair given the circumsances you would be shooting in. I will say that I wish I would have charged more than $75/hr for that commercial gig I quoted. Some of the places I was at deserved hazard pay!

Also, thinking about the mom. To tug her along a bit, you could always do a couple of different mock-ups on 5x7 with your watermark slapped across it to show her some editing options. I have a feeling that if she were to see and feel some shots her emotions would peak and get her to committ.

Good luck man. Your doing a GREAT on capturing some really nice sceans that convey the feelings and energy of being on stage! TOP SHELF stuff. Now, your at the door of opportunity ---- WALK THROUGH IT!

[Nickcanada]

I would say, don't bring your kit.

If you bring it in and snap some shots, you will inevitably end up giving them some shots. BANG, there goes your credibility.

Not to freak you out, but now you have reached quite a fork in the road. Next event of theirs you go to "just for fun to capture some cool shots"...WHAT do you do with the images??? If you give them away to the band...there goes your credibility again.

One possibility I can see here is to still bring your kit in and take some shots. Honestly, if the event goes well, they will regret not having you there to do it. Especially once they see the results of the unedited point-n-shoot family/friend shots. If they inquire after the fact about the shots, don't release unless the pay the quoted price. Heck, you could even still supply them with a CD, just slap a nice big watermark over each image so they can compare, feel remorse but still not use them unless they pay you for your work.

As far as the legal goes. Definately try to get model releases if you can. If you do work for them it will serve you best in the longrun. You're giving them images of themselves for their own use and it's no big deal. But, if you end up using them there could be issues without the release.

HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Business-Legal-Forms-Photographers-CD-ROM/dp/158115206X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-6856709-9353457?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176993316&sr=1-1)is a link to a book I'd suggest you get. It is a minor investment, but you will find pretty much everything you will need in the way of legal forms + a CD with the documents so you can customize them to your needs.

As far as pricing, I think your $75/hour was pretty fair given the circumsances you would be shooting in. I will say that I wish I would have charged more than $75/hr for that commercial gig I quoted. Some of the places I was at deserved hazard pay!

Also, thinking about the mom. To tug her along a bit, you could always do a couple of different mock-ups on 5x7 with your watermark slapped across it to show her some editing options. I have a feeling that if she were to see and feel some shots her emotions would peak and get her to committ.

Good luck man. Your doing a GREAT on capturing some really nice sceans that convey the feelings and energy of being on stage! TOP SHELF stuff. Now, your at the door of opportunity ---- WALK THROUGH IT!




Thanks for the encouragement! I wonder how legit that book would be in Canada. I'm sure there would be discrepancies in the laws? I'm going to pick up regardless. I'm also looking into setting up a business. I don't want to be caught flat footed again.

[cdifoto]

One possibility I can see here is to still bring your kit in and take some shots. Honestly, if the event goes well, they will regret not having you there to do it. Especially once they see the results of the unedited point-n-shoot family/friend shots. If they inquire after the fact about the shots, don't release unless the pay the quoted price.

Don't even go. This way they see the crap from the other cameras, and they'll TRULY regret not having you there. Instead of conveniently saving the day, tell them you can't make it but will gladly put them on your schedule as a client.

If you happen to be there anyway and shoot the images regardless of payment, they might want to pay you just for the pics (as a commodity vs a service) and consider your time as worth nothing.

If you weren't there in the first place, they'll know you're not shooting as a fan but instead as a professional.

[JMWallace]

commodity vs a service

Excellent comparison.

[Nickcanada]

Good point I was thinking about that on my way home from work. I think if I do go I'll leave my camera at home. I would like to go though and before he asked me to shoot it I was planing on going.

I have been told that one of the things that sets me apart from other photogs in the area is that I actually look like I enjoy the music. Going to support these guys can only improve my reputation, even if I didn't get the gig.

[forno]

Some good advice for you there Nick

[Vich]

Sounds like they cheap-skated out. The price is right, but they aren't ready to pay the "right price" yet.

If I were in that position (and I know this would be bad advice, just giving a perspective here) I would bring the camera and shoot like crazy. For the practice and enjoyment, pure and simple. Because I wouldn't want this new professional slant on my 2 most enjoyed activities (going to see fav bands and photography) get lost as a result. For me; it would curb my excitement for doing this as a profession.

That's because I want to be true to myself. Just because others might find something works for their business model, doesn't mean it's OK for me.

It is likely to set a precedence that'll trip you up on future gigs. IE: They'll think "we can put him on the guest list and he'll show, take photos, and we can but or not buy". You could explain if they want to see them "OK; but it's an all-or-none price and I have to make the price 25% higher than what I quoted ... so we don't make this a practice and if you want me to photo future gigs, you'll know it's 25% savings for just booking me". Any refusal will leave a bad taste in their mouths. Or you could explain that for future gigs it'll be 25% more.

I've seen a few POTN threads lately where high-n-mighty (self righteous jerks ... and I DO NOT want to infer that anyone here qualifies for that. CW, CDI, JWallace, forno ... great advice and decidedly not jerks ... but a particular POTN member qualifies) who are pro tried presenting their way as "the only path" in a very self righteous way. You can't give out digital negatives, you can't have a beer on the job, you should outsource the PP, you must pay all licensing fees etc etc etc ... and anything less is polluting the profession.

Point being; it's really your decision. The people here have wonderful perspectives but don't feel an obligation to follow their conclusions since it's a personal choice.

[Nickcanada]

I was thinking some more last night... If a band who has just won 300 000 dollars and a proud mother will not pay for concert photography, I have no chance of squeezing pennies from these poor musicians.

If I want to make money at this I guess I'll just have to do it the old fashioned way and start doing weddings. I'll keep concert photography as a hobby but I have a feeling the amount of time and effort to make a few bucks at concerts would not be worth my effort.

Just some random thoughts. I might change my tune again. I'm still developing my feelings towards this.

Thanks for sharing in the discussion guys. You are all a big help.

[cdifoto]

I was thinking some more last night... If a band who has just won 300 000 dollars and a proud mother will not pay for concert photography, I have no chance of squeezing pennies from these poor musicians.

If I want to make money at this I guess I'll just have to do it the old fashioned way and start doing weddings. I'll keep concert photography as a hobby but I have a feeling the amount of time and effort to make a few bucks at concerts would not be worth my effort.

Just some random thoughts. I might change my tune again. I'm still developing my feelings towards this.

Thanks for sharing in the discussion guys. You are all a big help.

I gave up on musicians. They're like us...they'd rather buy gear. :eek: :D

[Vich]

Wow, good point. I forgot about that.

Even the successful musicians I've known are ... ummm frugal.

One buddy, somewhat successful and really good, even switched from regular Coke to "Diet Dr. Pepper" (or was it Pepsi) - he told me "because I was in Michael J Fox's band and Michael stocked an entire refrigerator with nothing but it." Yuck! But it was free. Some even switch to cheap American beer solely for the dollar-to-liter ratio (uck), lol!

I can totally see musicians being hard sells for full-bang fees. The successful ones with managers ... I donno. There's so many skilled groupies with cameras all too anxious to share. Maybe a $100 fee here and there.

I've spoken with one photographer who tours with a band as the "band photographer" and subs out for a few different bands during lulls. Don't know what he charged but he did support himself with it (barely I think) - but got a real kick from the experiences.

All that said; surely the gold record musicians will hire quality photographers for their work ... or at least the recording studio will.

[Nickcanada]

Ok, update. I didn't end up going to that show. And Jacquie's mom ordered one 8x12 of the regular version and one 16x24 of this one....

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/nickandaline/IMG_9006-Edit2-1.jpg

I work so hard to get nice crisp colourfull pictures and what does my customer want? A photoshoped experiment that took me two seconds to make. :rolleyes:

[te1221]

I like! care to share the steps? :)

[Nickcanada]

I like! care to share the steps? :)

Thanks, I use CS2.
>create a duplicate layer if you like.
> go under filtergallary.
>"Poster edge" the picture I use Edge thickness 10, edge intesity 5 and posterization 3. click ok
>go back into filter gallery
>use the "cutout" filter. Here I do a lot of trial and error to get the results I want, but I suggest "edge fidelity" set to the lowest setting.

Some times I like to do another round of poster edge. I think the key is doing the "poster edge" before doing the "cutout" filter but play around to get a result you like.

Hope that helps!

[boog]

Way to go Nick. At least you got something for your troubles. I've been following this thread and good discussion. I'm glad you got $$$. I've been doing most of my stuff for free right now(mostly family) with the understanding I'm not a professional. Reguardless of how crappy I feel pics are, they always love them and have them hanging in their house.

[Nickcanada]

Way to go Nick. At least you got something for your troubles. I've been following this thread and good discussion. I'm glad you got $$$. I've been doing most of my stuff for free right now(mostly family) with the understanding I'm not a professional. Reguardless of how crappy I feel pics are, they always love them and have them hanging in their house.

Thanks! I still get stuck in the family trap.:o I'm doing a wedding for my sister in-law in Nov. I'm actually paying 1500 bucks to shoot it! It's going to be in The Dominican Republic so I'm spending my money to shoot it on my holiday for no compensation.... At least I like her.:D I'm actually looking forward to it though, it should be a lot of fun. Now if I could only get some paying jobs, I'd be set!

[nqjudo]

Nick - Haven't checked this thread out in a while but I wanted to say that I'm a big fan of the poster. Nice work. A wedding in the Dominican Republic. Seems to be a real trend these days. I read your reply about the model release issue possibly differing between Canada and the US. I'm not sure what your situation is but I deal with two insurers that offer a free telephone consultations with lawyers in just about every speciality. Maybe you or someone you know might have access to a service like this. I often forget that I have it myself. If that fails, universities with law programs often offer free student run services where you can call in with a question and a student will call you back with an answer after researching and consulting with a prof. That might be something to look at as well if you still have concerns about that.

[Nickcanada]

Nick - Haven't checked this thread out in a while but I wanted to say that I'm a big fan of the poster. Nice work. A wedding in the Dominican Republic. Seems to be a real trend these days. I read your reply about the model release issue possibly differing between Canada and the US. I'm not sure what your situation is but I deal with two insurers that offer a free telephone consultations with lawyers in just about every speciality. Maybe you or someone you know might have access to a service like this. I often forget that I have it myself. If that fails, universities with law programs often offer free student run services where you can call in with a question and a student will call you back with an answer after researching and consulting with a prof. That might be something to look at as well if you still have concerns about that.

Thanks, I'll have to look into that! I appreciate the info.

Cheers.

[boog]

I'm stuck in the family trap as well. Last summer, I shot wedding for brother-in-law and gave them about 10 discs with full resolution pictures on them and the only ones they've got in house are the ones I've printed and sent to them. Shot father and mother-in-laws renewing wedding vows in March. Then my sister and future brother-in-law asked me to shoot their wedding this weekend. They said they looked around and my pictures were as good or better than what they looked at(must be a lot of crappy photogs in my area:D ). So I feel your pain, not to $1500 dollars worth. The Florida wedding was during my vacation and it was pretty much ruined. As long as you get a chance to shoot some on your own time. Might be worth it.