Narrowed down too Nikon D80 vs Canon XTi

[CyberStorm]

I have a budget of $1500 and the prices of both cameras have come down considerably, a D80 body can be purchased for $890-1000

and the Canon body can be had for $700-850.

Now I do know that the lens is the most important part of the camera, and I want to set aside $500 for a lens (or probably buy two lenses for that matter).

Which camera should I opt for and what lenses can I use to start with? I'll be fine with a 200mm AT MOST. 300mm is not really that useful for me right now.

Thank you for your input. I did my research on the Sony Alpha 100, but I do shoot at ISO 400/800 since most of my photography takes place indoors in available light (I tend to keep my use of flash to a minimum).

thank you.

[longroad]

I was in the exact same situation and I've opted for the D80.
Just from all reviews I've read it seems like the more professional camera and feels MUCH better in the hand than the Canon (IMO).

If you do choose the D80 then this is most popular 200mm lens -
18-200mm f/3.5-5.6 G VR IF-ED
Just be aware they can be hard to come by these days, at least where I live stores are charging a premium for it.

[JoJo1974]

I find the D80 is easy to operate, so you might want to check out this link.

http://shorl.com/hoferagotily

[coldrain]

The XTi is a bit better in high ISO (especially textures disappear with the D80). And the D80 is not "more professional" either, more the opposite with its in camera editting toys.
I would not recommend the Nikon 18-200 VR, it is a convenient lens, yes, but optically it has quite some flaws that would irritate me a bit (including its quite bad distortion).

For indoors lower light you would want a lens that has quite a big maximum aperture. I do not know what you mean with "indoors" though, if they are indoor house situations, 200mm is very long. And gets to be expensive with bigger aperture lenses. And heavy.

The cheapest way to get low light indoor 200mm is the Sigma 70-200 f2.8. Another option can be the Sigma 50-150 f2.8 DC.
A stop slower is the Canon 70-200 f4 L USM.

Depending on what you photograph, the Canon 70-300 f4-5.6 IS USM may be an interesting option, its optics are great and its IS will help a lot.

A good indoors option (I am thinking of house situations again) is a 35mm f2. It will not cost much (Canon 35mm f2 under $250) and will give a "natural" perspective, wide enough for family/party shots and with a nicely big max. aperture.

If you want a "standard zoom" the Tamron 17-50 f2.8 Di II and the Sigma 18-50 f2.8 EX DC Macro are good and affordable offerings, the Sigma being the most affordable of the two (and I think the most desirable of the two).

[swgod98]

And the D80 is not "more professional" either, more the opposite with its in camera editting toys.

Come on, coldrain. You really think the XTi is more professional than the D80 simply because the D80 has some extra editing "toys"?

Seriously. Consider the rest of the camera. The D80 has a better build. Better handling. Better viewfinder. Better control for changing settings. A top LCD display. These are all features that "professional" dSLR's have that the XTi lacks. Don't come here and tell us the XTi is more professional based on a single feature the D80 has that you think is a "toy" and then start recommending 10 different lenses the XTi can use like it's the only option the OP should consider.

Why not offer the poster options and tell both sides of the story?

[coldrain]

How is the way you change settings on a D80 "more professional"?
I merely pointed out the soccer mom edit stuff to wonder about why anyone would call it more professional, it was not meant as "the XTi is more "prefessional" in every way.

And lets look at the lens options I gave. 2 of them are Canon only! The 70-200 f4 L and the 70-300 IS USM. Surely I am still allowed to recommend good Canon lenses anyway?

How can you say I gave lens options only available for Canon? That is just plain bad reading on your part.

[swgod98]

How is the way you change settings on a D80 "more professional"?

How can you say I gave lens options only available for Canon? That is just plain bad reading on your part.

#1) You stated the XTi (if anything) is the more professional camera.
#2) You brought up ISO performance as being better on the XTi.
#3) The only feature you mentioned from the D80 is one you called a "toy".
#4) You never mentioned a Nikon lens in your list.

It really reads as if you are trying to sell the XTi and the lenses that work on it. I am just reading it for what it is.

Changing settings on the D80 (IMO) is more professional because there are two adjustment dials. Don't all professional model camera's have 2 dials?

I am not making stuff up here. Or trying to derange your intentions. I am just saying it as I see it.

The XTi is a great camera, I have never spoke against it except to make honest comparisons. And for the price, it is definitely in competition with the D80. The OP may decide it is the best camera for himself. But, the D80 is no slacker, and I think it's only fair to offer opinions on both sides of the equation to the OP...especially with as much as you know.

You told me earlier I you know much more about camera's than I do. So, why not use that knowledge in a fair manner.

[DonSchap]

You could ...

Consider the Canon EOS 30D w/ the TAMRON AF18-250mm f/3.5-6.3 XR DiII LD Aspherical (IF) lens combination.

What this would offer is the terrific base-camera for almost all your future growth and one of the best all-around utility lenses ... with a 13x zoom capability. While not the low-light f/2.8, it does have legs out to 250mm. This lens would also allow you not to have to change lenses to go from wide to telephoto. That stops dust contamination ... which is a big problem for most DSLR cameras.

It's a great starter package for ... what, hey right at $1500! Who knew?

Call ALPINE CAMERA (http://www.alpinecamerausa.com/), today! It's in stock!

[fionndruinne]

Man, DonSchap, that is a nice-sounding lens alright.

There's no question that the D80 has better handling. The XTi at its best feels just a bit consumer-grade in its construction, and does suffer from button clutter. Not nearly as much as an ultrazoom, of course, but it is there.

[DonSchap]

Man, DonSchap, that is a nice-sounding lens alright.

There's no question that the D80 has better handling. The XTi at its best feels just a bit consumer-grade in its construction, and does suffer from button clutter. Not nearly as much as an ultrazoom, of course, but it is there.

You can do the same idea with the Nikon D80 and the TAMRON AF18-250mm f/3.5-6.3 XR DiII LD Aspherical (IF) lens, for about the same price ... ~$1500

So, a winning choice all the way around. Personally, I'm not a Nikon fan, but what the heck, fair is fair. Same place, ALPINE CAMERA (http://www.alpinecamerausa.com/). The D80's not in stock, but ...

Why wait? You know what you want ... Order NOW! :D

[CyberStorm]

thanks a lot for your feedback, I was stuck on getting a branded (nikon or cannon) lens to go with the camera, and have no experience with the tamron's or sigma's.

Any place where i can read reviews on TAMRON AF18-250mm? and at the 250mm end of the zoom, wouldn't VR be a nice function to have?

I am currently using the Sony DSC-R1 for my digicam needs. Been using it for 6 months. Really nice pics, but too slow on focus, low light focusing is average, burst mode is limited too 3 shots per burst (have to wait a few seconds to write images to memory), and limited too 5x optical zoom. Manual focusing is difficult on LCD screen. Excellent images upto ISO 800.

Want to upgrade since I can't capture people in indoor room lighting in motion with this camera.

[DonSchap]

thanks a lot for your feedback, I was stuck on getting a branded (nikon or cannon) lens to go with the camera, and have no experience with the tamron's or sigma's.

Any place where i can read reviews on TAMRON AF18-250mm? and at the 250mm end of the zoom, wouldn't VR be a nice function to have?


Anti-Shake is something some future TAMRONs will have. There are a couple SIGMA lenses currently enjoying that, too. TAMRON's AF28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD VC will be out in the Fall 2007. TAMRON engineered their own version of stabilization and incorporated it into this lens.

The SONY A100 by design provides all its lenses with Anti-Shake technology, because it is incorporated into the body of the camera. You may want to take a closer look at that system, before commiting to Canon or Nikon.

TAMRONs 18-250mm is relatively new, but if you use this LINK (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06093001tamron18250.asp), I think you'll find this a reasonable review of it.

[Rooz]

#1) You stated the XTi (if anything) is the more professional camera.
#2) You brought up ISO performance as being better on the XTi.
#3) The only feature you mentioned from the D80 is one you called a "toy".
#4) You never mentioned a Nikon lens in your list.

It really reads as if you are trying to sell the XTi and the lenses that work on it. I am just reading it for what it is.

Changing settings on the D80 (IMO) is more professional because there are two adjustment dials. Don't all professional model camera's have 2 dials?

I am not making stuff up here. Or trying to derange your intentions. I am just saying it as I see it.

The XTi is a great camera, I have never spoke against it except to make honest comparisons. And for the price, it is definitely in competition with the D80. The OP may decide it is the best camera for himself. But, the D80 is no slacker, and I think it's only fair to offer opinions on both sides of the equation to the OP...especially with as much as you know.

You told me earlier I you know much more about camera's than I do. So, why not use that knowledge in a fair manner.

never argue with a fanboy, they will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. :)

[Prospero]

TAMRONs 18-250mm is relatively new, but if you use this LINK (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06093001tamron18250.asp), I think you'll find this a reasonable review of it.

That 'review' you linked to is not at all a review. It's Tamron's press release about the lens :rolleyes:.

Cyberstorm, you said you want to upgrade because with your camera you can't shoot pictures without flash in low light when there is motion. In that case, the Tamron 18-250 is not the lens you need. It is a lens build for convenience, but definetly not for low light conditions.

For that purpose, you should be looking at glass with a fast apperture, the f/2.8 zooms. These will be much more suitable in the conditions you describe than the Tamron 18-250. Lenses you could take a look at are:
- Sigma 18-50 f/2.8
- Sigma 24-70 f/2.8
- Tamron 17-50 f/2.8
- Tamron 28-70 f/2.8

I think all these lenses sell at prices from 300-400 dollar. To get fast glass at the tele end with the budget you stated is not possible. The cheapest 70-200 f/2.8 is the Sigma, which is already 800 dollar. You may have to settle for a cheaper zoom for now. You can always upgrade in the future. Cheap lenses on the tele end you could take a look at are the Sigma 70-300, that lens is pretty good for the money, or the 55-200 zooms. If you go for Nikon, there is the new 55-200 VR for only 250 dollar

As to your question about whether to go for the Nikon or the Canon; both cameras are great. Just go to a store and try either of them. Then just pick the one that feels best.

Should you go for Nikon, a possible kit to get you started would be:
- Nikon D80
- Sigma 18-50 f/2.8
- Nikkor 55-200 f/4-5.6 VR

I think that will roughly fit in your budget.

[Rooz]

Prospero is right on the money. and just to state the obvious...VR or IS will not help you in low light with moving objects. the only way to capture moving objects in low light is faster glass.

[coldrain]

Prospero is right on the money. and just to state the obvious...VR or IS will not help you in low light with moving objects. the only way to capture moving objects in low light is faster glass.

This is not entirely true. As you may be aware, the rule of thumb for exposure times without camera shake is 1/X shutter speed where X is the focal length.

With for instance a 70-300 IS that would mean:
300 x 1.6 = 480mm.
1/500th sec exposure time.

Well, guess what. You do not need to use 1/500th for moving subjects, you can go quite a bit lower and have good photos of moving subjects. And that is where the IS will help.

Exerpt from a shutterbug article:
The best way to learn the best shutter speeds to use for a given subject is to try different shutter speeds, and keep notes. Then look at your pictures and your notes, and see which shutter speed(s) produced the results you like best. As a very general rule, shutter speeds of 1/1000 or faster will freeze most sports action, and shutter speeds of 1/15 or slower will blur it. Shutter speeds in-between (which include the whole range on many point-and-shoot cameras) might or might not freeze action subjects—it depends on the subject and what it's doing.
http://www.shutterbug.net/refreshercourse/sports_tips/192/index1.html

So, think twice before you decide IS or VR will not help with moving subject photography.

[CyberStorm]

Thank you Prospero for the suggestions! I think you gave me my answer, i will look into lenses with f/2.8. The Sigma will give good/great quality? Quality is important and I won't mind spending on a f/2.8 lens for now, and can always invest in a zoom lens later.

Yes i do understand how IS/VR work. They don't freeze motion of your subjects, just negate the jitterness of the hands upto a certain stop. I have a guide on ebay about digital cameras (lahoree).

It's just that I know i am leaning towards the D80, but the lens purchasing ordeal is too much with such a variety out there. I prefer quality over anything else, and I can stretch my budget if need be.

I've made up my mind, D80 it is, and now looking at the lenses Prospero mentioned. Any website with lens reviews?

Thanks!

[coldrain]

The 55-200 Vr prospero mentions is not a great lens, and it vignets a lot.
The nice thing about it is the price.

Here two websites with reviews:
http://www.photodo.com/category_2.html

http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/index.html


Here two websites with user impressions:
www.fredmiranda.com/reviews

http://www.photographyreview.com/reviewscrx.aspx

[Prospero]

Coldrain is right, the 55-200VR is not that great except for the price and the VR. It would be a good enough as a temporary solution, I guess.

If you can stretch your budget with another 200-300 dollar, you could get the D80 with a Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 and a Sigma 50-150 f/2.8. That is, if 150mm is not to short for you.

This kit would be affordable, lightweight, and light sensitive (especially when compared to the Nikon equivalents). It covers a range from 18-150mm, which should be fine for most people.

[CyberStorm]

One last question, the two sigma lenses you mentioned will suit my purpose. Are the images as sharp as any other f/2.8 and same focal range as the sigmas mentioned? I'd rather buy one top quality lens and never have to look back.

I was also looking into your album and was really impressed with the clarity and depth of color in each shot. Were you using a lens filter?

thanks for all your input! I will be sure to let you know once i do pick up my camera...i am trying to get it off ebay, but most resellers don't offer a manufacturer warranty.

[coldrain]

The Sigma 50-150 f2.8 has no equal lens in the Nikon range.
Sigma makes some really good lenses, and this 50-150 f2.8 does seem to be a good lens, with a fast and accurate HSM.
The Sigma 70-200 f2.8 EX DG HSM of course is a bit better, but it will weigh about double.
The only alternative for good quality zoom of the Sigma 50-150 f2.8 is the Canon EF 70-200 f4 L and its IS version. But those do not mount on a D80.

The Sigma 18-50 f2.8 EX DC Macro is a very nice lens. I have the predecessor of it, the new Macro version has obviously a closer "macro" ability, and the CA issues have been tackled and optics improved. In this thread I posted a lot of photos I made with the previous version of the Sigma 18-50 f2.8:
http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29674&highlight=greece

This Sigma 18-50 EX DC f2.8 Macro, at about $400, really is a bit of a bargain, with very good build quality, especially if you consider that the Nikon equivalent (17-55 f2.8 DX) costs around $1200. And the Canon equivalent, which does include IS (EF-S 17-55 f2.8 IS USM), costs around $1000.

[Prospero]

Thanks Cyberstorm. I used a polarizing filter for many of the recent shots, from page 3 and further shots were taken without a filter.

Like Coldrain said, there are better lenses than the Sigma 50-150, but only at double the weight (and a lot more expensive). Here you can see samples of the 50-150: http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/50_150_28_ex_dc_apo_hsm_. I haven't found many reviews of the test, but so far the user comments seem to be good. I don't think you will have to look back if you go for this lens.

[DonSchap]

Just for some variety, Tokina released their 50-135mm f/2.8 lens back in Nov 2006. It seems to have gotten some good play, also. $679 @ Beach Camera.

Just for a quick comparison. The SIGMA 50-150mm f/2.8 is around $649