Getting in the Door

[abyssknight]

Well, it's been a few months since my "Which camera should I buy?" thread, and the funds have come and gone several times and something always comes up whether it be car, wedding, or vet expenses I still fail to get my foot in the door of the dSLR world. I've been reading these forums practically every day since that first post, and reading over all the posts from dramatic and heated discussions, to great imaging posts and tutorials.

So, I guess my question is, "How do I get in the door?". I'm a student, currently planning a wedding, and doing freelance web development/design work to save some cash before my graduation (Computer Science B.S.) in May and everytime I get close to the magic $700 budget for a Rebel XT, case, 2gb CF, and other paraphernalia it all goes to another worthy cause. Now, I've considered grabbing an old 35mm SLR and giving that a whirl, but to get in that door in and of itself is a good $300 plus film.

Now, to qualify myself, I have absolutely no experience beyond point and shooting in the real world. I've read through a ton of material online regarding everything from exposure, aperture, ISO to HDR and the rule of thirds but I'm finding it difficult to put any of it to use. I've attempted to nab the family camera (Canon SD300) but have been chastised for leaving it in manual mode.

So what do I do? The reason I've posted here is that the question is really not about what to buy so much as, where does one start? I've read post after post from new members looking to get into the dSLR game but simply being priced out of the 'club', and I really don't think that should be the case. Photography, I feel, would make for an interesting and enjoyable hobby but like most good hobbies, there comes a large cost. I would know, I play drums. ;)

Anyways, please take my banter with a grain of salt, but if you have constructive advice for someone like myself that you'd like to share please by all means post. I'm pretty much open to everything, I have no preference as to a system, nor to I have a predisposition to any rule of thought.

[DonSchap]

You might try looking for a used Canon EOS 20D at Calumet Photography. A number of photgraphers upgraded to the 30D, not that long ago and you may get your price. At least for the Camera.

After following ebay prices on available lensing for Canon ... it seems no Canon-mount gets a break. They all go for solid bucks. If you are really on a budget, for the short term, I'd consider SONY, Samsung or Pentax ... the available lensing is a whole lot cheaper.

BTW: To change that thumbs-down icon ... Use the "Go Advanced" button when you are in EDIT mode.

[abyssknight]

Thanks Don, I appreciate the reply. I'll have to take a look at the 20D's and the Pentax/Sony stuff. I know you can get a K110D for around $350-$400 body only but that the buffer size is very small. You are correct, the Canon prices are very solid. Even brick and mortar stores are holding with the online prices plus or minus $50-100. I've been trying to keep in mind the after purchase price of any camera, mostly the lenses. I've noticed generally the cheaper, more vast gamut of lenses lies in selecting either the Canon or 3rd party lenses, and the 80mm EF-S prime is definitely tempting.

[zmikers]

I've noticed generally the cheaper, more vast gamut of lenses lies in selecting either the Canon or 3rd party lenses, and the 80mm EF-S prime is definitely tempting.

Don't overlook the nifty 50. Very cheap and a great piece of glass, especially for the price:D

[AdamW]

Also check the used sections of B & H, Adorama, and KEH, and the refurbished section of Adorama. You can get some good deals in those places, I know I have. A used 20D, a kit lens, and the 50mm f/1.8 would be a fine starter kit.

[nqjudo]

I would advise you not to buy any equipment at all at this point if you consider it a luxury item. Follow a few rules and become part of the financial elite. Finish your education debt free or better if you can (In fact, never go into debt for anything except a house. No, not even a car). As soon as you start working seriously, hire a financial adviser - even if you don't have any money to invest immediately. Concentrate on building your retirement savings, pay off a house as fast as you can and try to learn as much as you can about money management - something few people learn in school. In a very short while, you'll be buying any equipment that you want without having to worry about it and you may find yourself with a lot of time on your hands to explore things that you may be more passionate about than work - like photography. What's the use of having top equipment if you are slaving away at work 60 hours a week?

When I was finishing school I would wash my clothes by hand to save electricity or having to put 25 cents in the washing machine. This may seem nuts to you but now, at 36, I only work part time about 20 - 30 weeks a year by choice and I spend 2 or 3 months out of the year travelling. I have the freedom to do so and that doesn't happen by accident. 36 may seem like it's a long way off for someone who is just finishing school but talk to someone in their sixties who still has to work because they spent large portions of their earnings on consumable goods throughout their life and further weakened their position by financing much of it. I'm sure you'll think differently then. I never met anyone who was very ill or otherwise approaching the end of their life who looked back and wished that they had given more of their life to the company that they were working for. Forget the camera. Save your money and while you're at it, take my banter with a grain of salt too. I realize that this may not be what you want to hear but honestly, I wouldn't advise my best friend any differently.

[T06]

I almost wrote something similar. I was lucky enough to have a father that cared & is a shrewd man when it comes to money. Of this upbringing I left home very early & set out upon the world, one of the hardest lessons to be learnt in life is money, I learnt it my way because me & the old man are like two bulls in a pen, it's just like he said. "Pay cash, if you can't it better make good money then". Point! If it's not essential you can't afford it if life keeps getting in the way of the price of your hobbies.:confused: ;) :rolleyes:

[fionndruinne]

Hey, while staying out of debt may be odd advice for a camera forum, it's some of the best advice to give, and I fully agree. Mainstream life's built on a lie, that things don't necessarily need paid for. They do.

Personally, I am earning a little with my hands, and unfortunately that plan's not going to change any time soon - I'm not keen on college, instead working on my book as much as I can. Middle-grade working-class jobs aren't flashy, but I figure it'll get me by until I write something worthwhile. Here's where it ties in with a camera, though: I want one for the incentive to get out in my spare time, to hunt out some good photos and stay active, so I'll be in top working order myself. Otherwise I'd probably spend a lot too much time on the computer, gaming or *ahem* frequenting forums...

Anyway, I might be just a tad of a hijacker there, but only, y'know, continuing a thought. Yep. :D

[abyssknight]

Well, just to put everyone at ease, I never buy anything non-essential on credit. I always have the cash in the bank, and I actually have money in the bank at the moment (for the wedding expenses) but I am not to spend it (tsk tsk!). I usually just assume I don't have that money, and my life is 10x better for it. ;)

fionndruinne, that's practically my reasoning for buying into a new hobby. I spend 90% of my time in front of a machine when I work, or do my class work.

Again, I really appreciate the advice and I will definitely explore anything you all suggest. I may just wait until after graduation when I'm salaried, but that's no fun now is it? :p

[DonSchap]

There are those who live for the here & now, and those who plan for the future & then... and then ... the rest of us, pay as you go and play the lottery.

Part of living is enjoying the moment. Can this be done without a Canon EOS 1Ds MKII camera and the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM lens? Well, uhh ... gosh, that's a tough call, ain't it?

Anyway ... you make choices ... some pay off ... others fizzle. Saving all the extra money you make (money not used for necessities of life) means you've decided that the "pay-off" years of your life are a few decades away. Is this for everyone? The wisdom may say "yes", but the 'Great Depression' generation wasn't the happiest bunch in the world.

You can always shove a few bucks in the savings, stock, and 401K plans for retirement, but the fact is ... your hobby is your personal get-away-from-the everyday part of your life. It boils down to how special is the hobby you have chosen and how much of YOU does it represent?

The part that makes photography hard is that you need to have the proper equipment right upfront, if you are going to take a particular type of photograph. You usually can not fudge this part. That usually requires a serious investment ... upfront. The "END" simply justifies the means. If you can live with mediocre results, then you can opt for mediocre equipment, plain and simple.

If we could all turn out incredible images with an XT ... who would ever invest in the EOS 1 series?

If fingerpainting could turn out the satiny-quality image of an oil painting ... who would need $40 sable-brushes? You could give the art store "the finger."

If we could successfully sneak a wooden/plastic wrap aero-bomber over the enemy, why pop for the 2-billion-dollar-a-copy B2 Bomber?

Regardless of how you manage your money ... it takes money to make money. If you plan on selling your work on a routine basis ... invest in the equipment ... if it's just to get some intimate shots of your playful partner or whatever ... a simple Point & Shoot may be your answer, stick the rest of the available money in the market funds and gold ... and wait .. and wait ... yeah, wait some more. There is a big difference. Which is more affordable? Which is more fun? Which will turn out the desired product? (Gee, I really like the sound of that WAITING-part. Waiting your life away ... isn't that the same thing as ... prison? Hey, why not tell the whole world to wait with you ... your nest-egg is growing. You'll be ready in say ... about twenty years or so ... then you'll come out and play!)

The bottom line to all this is: Define your goals. What, when, how and why? We already know the "why" ... because you want it. How good is that? :cool: Only three more to go.

You just stand there, cross-armed, and tell them:

"If it all ends tomorrow, somebody ...

GET THE SHOT, because ... I'm waiting!"

[abyssknight]

Part of living is enjoying the moment. Can this be done without a Canon EOS 1Ds MKII camera and the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM lens? Well, uhh ... gosh, that's a tough call, ain't it?

Thanks Don, that cracked me up! I'm glad others are chiming in, as I know this thread will be helpful for many other new people. As you've stated, it's a toss up. Do you want/need it all now? Some now? Perhaps later? When is later? In the end you have to make your own choice, and I will be doing the same. The point of this thread was to explore the options, and perhaps bring up some interesting budget options for those making the transition from PnS to dSLR. I hope this advice is useful for others in the same boat, persay.

Personally, my goals are just to take some decent photos of a varied focal length of subjects that I can print and use in the home, crafts, and on my PC for work. I like to think of a dSLR as an investment for not only myself, but for my family and years to come. Cliche, but true.

[fionndruinne]

Hmm now... there's an interesting balance between living for the moment and living for the future. I think it lies somewhere around enjoying the moment but also bettering oneself, so that one may better seek out the moment and better enjoy it for what it is, not anything it's not.

A good reason for a SLR camera, no? I think so. ... if you need an explanation there, one might ask what you're doing on this forum anyway. ;)

Personally, even though the extra $500-600 would definitely be useful in my present circumstances, I'm going for a basic SLR anyway, and whatever price I have to pay in terms of doing without (hopefully just comforts, rather than necessities) should be worth it. It's a step, an advancement, in a new direction. Also, I live in southwestern Oregon, which is just overflowing with good pictures, so that my spending time sitting inside on the computer is, when you really look at it, shameful.

[DonSchap]

Grab that rig and the "good glass" ... plow into the Great Northwest and get you some ... images of the majestic beauty that is to be had ... for free.

While some landscapes are more spectacular than others (life is weird this way), there are moments to be had that if you do not have "ol' Besty" hanging around your neck ... they are gone forever!

You can own the most expensive equipment on Earth ... but if you don't have ready when the moment hits ... GONE.

Ahh, that's priceless! :cool:

[nqjudo]

abyssknight - You know, much of what DonSchap says is true. Hobbies and investing both have to be approached and invested into within your personal set of values. There's no sense in saving millions of dollars for your retirement if you just plan on sitting around your house watching TV in your old age. The danger is that you have to be absolutely sure of what your goals are because you only get one chance at it. This rings somewhat true with photography equipment as well. There is no sense having a state of the art SLR if you are an occasional or casual shooter and there's no sense buying bottom of the line stuff if you are very serious. You'll just end up spending good money after bad when you quickly become displeased with your setup. All this being said, I still advise just thinking about photography for the time being. The actual cost of an SLR body is a pittance to what one has to spend on lenses and other accessories.

DonSchap - Living totally in the moment is fine and there are many people who get by that way. I know many folks who live without a care in the world, never seeming to mind that the bills are piling up, the rent is due and they don't have two cents to rub together because they just financed a new car or something. Personally, I would go mad in that situation. I think the best moment to live in is the one that you successfully planned for and earned. Walter Mischel did a study at Stanford in the 60s that is now referred to as the marshmallow test. He took a bunch of 4 year olds and gave them each a marshmallow. He told them that if they could wait 20 minutes without eating it, they would get another. A majority of them ate it but a few waited and got the reward. All these children were closely followed into adolescence and guess what? All the children who were able to delay their gratification for a bigger reward were better adjusted, more dependable and scored far higher on academic aptitude tests. Over the years this study has been expanded an not surprisingly it shows that when it comes to finances, people who are able to delay gratification are generally far wealthier than those who can only engage in instant gratification. Once again, there is much to be said for living in the moment but I have no doubt that those who can put those moments off for a short time do get to enjoy them and most likely end up enjoying a lot more nice moments when all is said and done.

OH abyssknight - One more thing. By reading DonSchaps posts, one might believe that the better equipment you buy, the better your shots will be. I couldn't disagree more. An average modern SLR camera or lens is generally infinitely superior to the available equipment that your father, his father, or his father may have enjoyed. That being the case, why isn't every shot taken today better that those of days gone by? Simply put, there are those who would have you believe that the most important aspect of photographic image is what equipment it was taken with but it is really about who is behind the camera. I've seen some spectacular and compelling images taken by some equipment that most professional photographers today would laugh or sneer at. I'm sure DonSchap has too.

Anyway folks, I have really found this thread interesting. Nice to see so many different points of view. Let's not forget that someone did start it off with a question. My advice abyssknight is that if you are going to buy, then buy used. Much of buying photography equipment involves selling it a while later. I've certainly benefited by saving money on used stuff and you should as well.

[DonSchap]

Thank you, "Nqjudo", for your supporting words. While living for the moment wasn't quite what I had in mind ... a quality effort certainly is. With that being said:

The only "real" issue I have with USED equipment (lenses especially) is whether or not it got ... BOUNCED.

Dropped lensing is far too common to be ignored. It throws off the focus and you always left wondering ... is it me or what? Honestly, it's hard to reconcile without a "lens examination" by a qualified lens repair center, not some camera shop bozo trying to sell you it.

All of us have it happen, eventually. Hopefully, it is a rare event, but changing lenses is "dangerous business", to be sure. One fumble-finger-event or jostled lens-pocket and there goes your 35mm f/1.4, tumbling to disaster. Or even having your camera strap cut loose on you, sending your entire rig to the deck. These events are dark and leave the photographer in a horrible state of decision.

Does he: cut his losses and sell the lens, to immediately get a new one?
send it off and sit for 30-days, having it repaired?
live with the disaster and take his chances with the damaged lens?
go on international selling circuit (e...) and try his luck, there?

My advice is: If you do buy a used lens, have it thoroughly checked if anything looks amiss, otherwise shot after shot ... you'll truly regret that purchase, as even new ones (fresh out of the box) need a "tweak", sometimes (~20%).

The thing is ... most new photographers don't realize how bad things are until they've spent some serious time comparing their shots. We all do it. We look to see what went wrong with this or that, but if the equipment is fouled up ... that's hard to tell from the novice techniques being used by the new photographer. YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE WORKING WITH IS DEAD ON! Like anything you buy used (especially cars), have it checked.

Oh, if only it were a perfect world, eh? :rolleyes:

[LR Max]

Student eh? Like, college student or high school student?

If college student, best thing to do is to go start working for the school newspaper. This is a great way to build credentials and skill. Also because its a school newspaper, most of the time they are looking for people and will help you along the way. This is what I did and it gave me the initial stepping stone in photography.

For the school newspaper, most of the time the photo requirement does not call for a DSLR. Most of my pictures come from my little point n' shoot Sony. I use it because its small and light, I can easily carry it in my backpack around campus. Also most shots are during the day and so there are no light restrictions. A point n' shoot will work great for 90% of the assignments I am given. Just make sure that your photo editor knows this and to only give you assignments that you're equipment can handle. You won't be able to shoot sports or night stuff too much so go ahead and get that out of your system.

Yes, for the average college student a DSLR is a luxury. So...get a job! I worked weekends to pay for my setup. It was a pain, but worth it because now I've got a good camera and lense. Also ask what your newspaper has in terms of equipment. I know our newspaper has a Nikon D1 and D1H sitting in a drawer. Its not a fancy new camera, but it'll work. Also our newspaper owns a number of lenses, some capable of sports photography. So whenever I need to go shoot the ball game, I just check one of these puppies out and I am golden.

Also some of the other photographers have old equipment that they would be willing to pass along. I've sold cameras and bought cameras for cheap this way. I like it because I know my old stuff is getting used (and I get money!!).

So see whats available around campus. That'll help you. You don't need to take any photography classes. I haven't. Most of the other people haven't.

From one student photographer to another, this is my suggestion.

[Seafood]

I can only express one opinion and that is mine.

I was in the same boat as you. Reading everything I could get my hands on for months. Very limited budget. Mortgage, kids, bills, etc etc. Really wanted a Nikon...but at the end of the day it just wasnt in the cards.

I can now say that I am a proud owner (1 1/2 weeks) of a Pentax K110d and am very very happy. I mean come'on...you and I are not Ansel Adams. I learned some basics years ago using a 35mm film SLR Canon Eos and am a very amateur photographer. The Pentax does everything I need it to do and more.

Small buffer? I shot in continous mode with my daughter running around and got 5 shots without a problem. Again...I am not filming an IMAX here...it worked great. So the optical viewfinder is not top shelf like some other...and the fill flash is just ok. This camera has taken some great photos for me in the first week and as I learn how to use it the pics will only get better.

A pro photoographer told me yesterday that he had not held one until he taught an intro course this past weekend....he said he was amazed at the quality of the camera and its pictures.

I paid $395 after rebate, with a lens! A great deal in my mind.

go for it.

[Honest Gaza]

So what do I do? The reason I've posted here is that the question is really not about what to buy so much as, where does one start? I've read post after post from new members looking to get into the dSLR game but simply being priced out of the 'club', and I really don't think that should be the case. Photography, I feel, would make for an interesting and enjoyable hobby but like most good hobbies, there comes a large cost. I would know, I play drums. ;)



So how do you get your foot in the door ?

You take that first step.

Dream for a while and decide what lenses you would like in the future. You are buying into a system....be that Canon, Nikon....whatever.

Once you have decided on a system, then take that first step and buy the camera body with kit lens. Most people will be dissuaded from buying the kit lens because of the many, many reviews that others have given (sometimes purely based on reviews that they have only read).

You've said you don't want to outlay money at the moment for various lenses so you have made this part easy for yourself. A lot of us want the "right" lenses from the beginning and have to research and manage the budget accordingly. You have the advantage of knowing you don't want the extra lenses at this stage, so settle on a system and go and get that foot in the door. :)

Any kit lens will still enable you to learn the basics of DSLR photography.
(Eventually, you'll get your whole leg in the door......then look out)

[Rooz]

you're very sensible for a "gaza" mate.:)

[abyssknight]

Well, I guess it would be time for me to chime in again, huh? :) I really appreciate all the advice that is being given, and I really hope this thread can serve as a guide to others. I'm still looking, and a recent change of events (read: father of the bride is getting an A++), has lead to my being able to spend a portion of my income on a camera etc.

I have to admit, even though it may start a series of 'eek-don't-do-that' posts, I have been looking intimately into the D40. I am not without my research, nor my reservations. The reasons I am considering the D40 is its size, built in tutorial, build quality, and of course the new 55-200 VR lens that hits the $250 sweet spot this April/now (That pretty much put me at ease about AF-S being an issue.). As I've stated before, I know pretty much nothing when behind the camera, but I've done enough research on lenses and such to know that your first camera will not be your last, but your first lens may very well outlast more than a few cameras. That said, I am leaning very strongly towards the D40, as it is aimed at consumers like myself that are just looking to learn, and then later buy that 30D, or D80 (or more...).

Serious contenders still include the lovely Pentax K110/100D's, Rebel XT, and the D50.

That said, you can get a camera with the kit lens, case, UV filter, memory card, and the Giotto cleaning kit all for a cool $650-$700 at least 3 different ways. Whether you are die hard set on the 50mm f1.8 from Canon, or the in body stabilization of the Pentax K100D, or looking to get in fast and build up slowly with the Nikon, the opportunities exist now, whereas about 6 months ago you'd be hard pressed to get the XT for anything under $700 with the kit lens.

[heckya]

I just want to put in my two cents. You want a camera and the family camera is off limits. My suggestion is go out and buy a p&S that is cheap. And then go out there and take pics.A little p&s takes good pictures and you can have fun tweaking them on your computer. What this does it puts a camera in your hands now. As stated earlier a camera doesn't take great photos a photographer does. Go out and be a photographer. Any way good job on graduating and good luck.

[cdifoto]

You could always sell your drums.

[RichNY]

(read: father of the bride is getting an A++), has lead to my being able to spend a portion of my income on a camera etc.

Um, no. Whether aware of it or not he's just become an enabler for his future son-in-law. Unless you've already got a minimum of 6 months future living expenses in cash and no debt of any kind you have no business spending money on these types of luxury expenses. If you don't have the strength to delay the gratification now, don't expect it is going to come over time.

You are really better served by following the path of those of us who retired and semi-retired in our early to mid 30s than people who are concerned about the cost of Image Stabilization on every lens they own.

The key to being happy is learning to be happy with what you have, not what you want or plan to buy.

On a side note, why are you getting married so young?

[abyssknight]

I guess really, I'm a bit offended but I don't believe you meant to. The finances are there, and I will be getting a salaried position soon. My questions were not meant to be about funding so much as how people can get started.

As far as getting married so young, I'm 21 and she is as well. We've been dating for over 4 years, and got engaged just after the 4 year mark. We're just happy together.

[DonSchap]

Um, no. Whether aware of it or not he's just become an enabler for his future son-in-law. Unless you've already got a minimum of 6 months future living expenses in cash and no debt of any kind you have no business spending money on these types of luxury expenses. If you don't have the strength to delay the gratification now, don't expect it is going to come over time.

You are really better served by following the path of those of us who retired and semi-retired in our early to mid 30s than people who are concerned about the cost of Image Stabilization on every lens they own.

The key to being happy is learning to be happy with what you have, not what you want or plan to buy.

On a side note, why are you getting married so young?

Gee ... Dad!

This is almost too much information to be carrying on about in this forum, DON'T YA THINK?

Wanna take his pulse, too? Give me break!

Sheesh, give a guy some new glass and send him off to Europe ... and he becomes the "All-Father!" For goodness sake, Rich, don't go to China ... we'll never hear the end of it.

[abyssknight]

Just to finish off this thread, at least for myself, I went ahead and took the plunge. I bought a D40, as the price and feature set fit my immediate needs and will grow with me as I learn more. One day, when I'm happily salaried and can afford it, I can always grab a D80 or D200 and get 'serious' while keeping any lenses I may acquire. For now though, the D40 certainly seems to hold its own, and I'm enjoying shooting every little thing.

For reference, I got the D40 Kit, UV filter, 1gb Sandisk Ultra II SD Card, Tamrac Camera Bag, and the accidental damage protection (2 years, perhaps a rip off but they said it covered sensor cleanings) for around $750 after my AAA 10% discount. Considering the camera alone retails around $600 I think I did a decent job. ;)

Reasons for grabbing a D40 instead of similar offerings included the large, crystal clear viewfinder, build quality, (according to a few reviews) good low light performance, as well as just the feel of the grip and the sheer size of the camera.

Some caveats at the store though, they had no idea what size filter the thing would take, but luckily in all my research I remembered 52mm sounded right. The sales associate even checked the Circuit City website and couldn't find it. They did make sure to recommend the filter and everything, which was definitely impressive on their part considering this wasn't a camera shop.

We took the D40 out of the box, and honestly the hardest part of the set up was getting the strap into the recessed strap lugs. Everything else was a piece of cake, and we were shooting in less than 90 minutes (battery had to charge).

As far as the future, I plan on saving up for the 55-200mm VR lens, as well as the SB-400 flash module and other accessories. I have several outings planned for the next few weekends including the Epcot garden festival so I should have more shots to post soon.

Again, thank you all for the advice, it was certainly helpful. In the end, I waited until I had the funds, the research, and the advice at hand and made my own decision.

[nqjudo]

Good for you and congratulations. Hope you are happy with your purchase and that you continue to enjoy photography. One of my friends bought a D40 recently and she is extremely happy with it. With Nikon, you've bought into a good system. Happy shooting.