Daughter's dance recital - Which lens?

[marypennie]

My almost 3 year-old daughter has her first ever dance recital tomorrow - you know, pink tu-tus, chubby legs in tights, little ponytails - basically a mother's dream. I've never been to the venue so I don't know what kind of lighting they would have. I've been told that the mothers of the younger ones will get to sit in one of the front rows, although I don't know how close that is to the stage.

I've only got 3 lenses - the 18-55 mm kits lens, which I've already ruled out, the 50 1.8 and the 28-105 3.5-4.5. I only plan on taking one lens since I also have to deal with the little tot.

Which would you take? The 50 1.8 which does better in low-light, but lacks the reach? (I have an XTi) Or the 28-105 3.5-4.5?

[XaiLo]

50mm 1.8 reach won't do much good if you can't see anything:)

[RebelRat]

I'd use the 28-105, you'll enjoy the shooting more with the zoom. You can go from body shots to face shots. Use higher ISO to deal with light conditions. ISO 800 should still be quite a usable setting.

Consider shooting in Raw also, I always shoot Raw + Jpeg. Raw is great incase you have to deal with white balance and exposure later in processing.

[DonSchap]

This will be a tough shot without flash.

I don't have any experience with the Canon EF 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5, but I do have a Phoenix 28-105mm f/2.8-4. It cost me all of $10.00 and they are very similar. The lens should provide enough light from 28-70mm.

Instructions (at time of shoot):


Set your Camera Mode to Av
Set your ISO to 800 and don't change it.
With the lens focal length at 28mm, set your aperture to it widest setting (f/3.5). (It will then always return to widest setting as you shift focal lengths, so long as you do not manual alter the aperture or change modes.)
If your shutter speed drops below 1/60th ... get closer, or stiffen up to prevent camera shake. Fold your elbows in against your body and take a breath, before you release the shutter.


If your shutter speeds are consistantly 1/30, 1/15 or longer ... surrender to a flash, because most things are going to blur, be it you moving, your subject moving or BOTH. This is a dynamic environment (things in motion) and without flash, brilliant lighting or ultra-sensive equipment ... well, expected results will probably be 25% usable or less.

Stay away from deep zoom (70-105mm) unless the lighting is really brilliant (Spot light dead on). I suppose you could experiment, but your money shots will be at f/4 or wider.

Very important: Make sure you are focus exactly on your subject ... because your DOF (depth of field) is really going to be tight at f/3.5 ... no more than a foot either side of the focal point.

Anyway, this is the way I would approach it, with what you have ... perhaps someone with this lens has a better idea. :rolleyes:

You might want to practice these instructions or commit them to paper and take it with you. It can get very confusing, when you are under-the-gun.

Another "future lens" consideration is the Tokina AT-X 535 Pro DX 50-135mm f/2.8 (http://www.thkphoto.com/products/tokina/atx535prodx-a.html) (<- click on this) lens (~$700). Superior constant aperture throughout the focal length. As far as what you are doing, this may be the best overall lens, without going to really high cost glass, like the Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=150&modelid=7469) (<- click here, too) ($1700).

[zmikers]

I would seriously think about taking 2 lenses with you. The 28-105 should be ok with a higher ISO, but it would be a real shame if the lighting was just too dark and your wife wouldn't forgive you if you couldn't get any shots :p . You never know, maybe you will be very close and able to use your 50 1.8. If not then you can use the 28-105. If possible, take two lenses, IMHO.

[RebelRat]

Here is a shot I took with my 28-105 during CNY. It's been cropped and general post processed a little. Though I did use a flash on most of my shots.

[marypennie]

You guys are seriously awesome! I was only expecting brief responses (E.g. Take the 28-105) and am so amazed at the extra added advice. Coming from a newbie, it is very much appreciated!!!!!

[adam75south]

do you plan to use your flash at all? depending on lighting it is possible that your 28-105 just won't do what you need it to. i'd definitely set the ISO to 1600 to squeeze out what SS you could possibly get out of it. i think you might oghtta bring that 50mm along just in case.

[swgod98]

Wait a second...this is an indoor dance recital. Do you guys really think F4+ (without flash) is going to cut it? Even with ISO1600? That's rough.

50mm isn't that far in, but it's so much easier to crop a well exposed image (she has 10mpx to work with) than it is to fix motion blur from a moving subject.

I'll admit, my experience isn't with indoor motion photography, but I just don't think the 28-105 is going to cut it here (without flash).

I suppose lighting will be key. The 50mm is pretty small and could fit in a jacket pocket...? Take both if possible, just in case.

Good luck.

[zmikers]

The 28-105 should be ok with a higher ISO, but it would be a real shame if the lighting was just too dark and your wife wouldn't forgive you if you couldn't get any shots :p .

Sorry just reread the other posts. I realize now that you are the wife . he he he sorry:p

[NewTekBuzz]

take both, the 50 and the 28-105
start with 800 ISO first, if that dont work then try 1600 as a last resort.
maybe you could scream "hold still for a second" you will be close enough!! he he he im just kidding. good luck and post some of the shots you get.

Tim

[coldrain]

I agree, take both the 28-105 f3.5-4.5 and the 50mm f1.8. Both are very low in price.

[marypennie]

Sorry just reread the other posts. I realize now that you are the wife . he he he sorry:p

No worries, zmiker. ;)

I really appreciate all the advice, folks. I did put in an order for the 430ex flash on Tuesday with a 2 day delivery only to be told the following day that it was on back-order. So I just ordered it from a more reputable company with regular shipping (didn't want to spring $40 for the next day delivery).

After all the advice, I will bring both lenses. Thanks again, people!

[JMWallace]

I agree. Take them both. If your close enough, use the 50. It's quicker and will allow you to use a lower ISO.

However, if you want to get those wider shots and close up face shots, use the 28-105.

Do what Don said and set your aperture and leave it. Set the lens for 28 and lower your f-stop to 3.5. That way when you zoom to 105 it will be at 4.5 and when you go back it will stay the widest open that it can.

I can give you a little note of expereince. I took some shots of my nieces Christmas concert and used my 28-135. I can say that I wish I had been closer but you tend to sit where there is an available seat. Sadly mine was 3/4 of the way back.

Anyway, what surpised me is that although the seating area is DARK, the lights on the stage are usually pretty bright. But since they are overhead there can be some extreme contrasts of well lit and dark shadows. This isn't like a dimly lit concert stage with just colored lights for effect. They often don't do anything fancy to the lights...because they don't know how. Pretty much ALL ON.

I think 800 is a good ISO, but I would also set my metering to spot. (does the XTi allow for that???)

I doubt you will need a flash. If you are further back it's not going to help anyway. From expereince, it spreads out so far that anyone on stage looking in that direction will get red eye. You can expect the ceilings are too high to bounce off so you will be fireing it off stright forward.

If your close enough...I truely doubt you will need it.

Hope that helps.

[D Thompson]

Good luck, I hope you get some great shots. Hopefully, they will let you bring your camera in and the use of a flash even more iffy. I guess it depends on the setting. Cameras of any sort weren't allowed :mad: when my daughter was dancing, but they did have a videographer shooting and had the videos for sale. Enjoy the recital years - expensive, but worth it. My daughter danced from the age of 4 till college with plenty of recitals & competitions in between. She starting teaching dance around age 16 and 12 years later is still teaching. She has some classes for the little ones and enjoys it much. I always got a kick out of watching the small ones as you never know what they'll do for sure :eek: .

Break a leg..............

[zmikers]

I think 800 is a good ISO, but I would also set my metering to spot. (does the XTi allow for that???)

The xti does not have spot metering, but it does have partial, which is 9% as opposed to the 3%(or close to) of spot metering. SO pretty close to the same thing.

[DonSchap]

You might just want to review my original reply to the thread ... I made a couple of small changes ... for readiblity and consideration.

[marypennie]

Failed. Miserably. Too ashamed to post any pics.

The advice you all gave was wonderful. I even took my son out in the morning and practiced shooting in Av mode since I've only been practicing in M mode. I had it down pat (yeah, I know, there's not much to it, but still).

At the recital I even was in the front row. I even took some test shots of the announcer on stage before it started. And then the lights went out and my daughter's class came out and the lights were all different. AND I PANICKED.

I can't even tell you all what I did since I don't know myself. All I know is in the 3 minutes my daughter was up on stage my camera was on a roller-coaster ride. I felt sick when it was over. I couldn't even bear to look at the pictures until we got home. But at least there are three where's she's recognizable. ;)

The husband just laughed at me saying he thought for sure with me in the front row and my fancy camera I'd get some good shots. He said now I know what he feels like when he comes home from a bad day of golf.

Like Don said, things are different when you're "under-the-gun." My admiration for photo-journalists and all photographers in general, have gone up a thousand-fold. I'll chalk this one up to a learning experience and keep in mind all the invaluable advice I've received from this thread alone.

[RebelRat]

Well, better luck next time. You don't know if you don't first try. I still make many mistakes, we are constantly learning. Did you shoot in RAW? You have a better chance in recovering a underexposed shot in RAW than Jpeg.

[zmikers]

I am very sorry to hear that, but all is not lost. Learning is not just remembering what works, but also remembering what doesn't work, this is probably just as if not more important. Try to reflect on the day and remember what didn't work and try to think what you could have done differently. The more you try, the easier it will become. Trust me!

Oh ya, one more bit of advice. On a shoot, I will snap off 50, 100, even 150 shots in hopes that just a few turn out the way I like. Digital means no cost in shooting. Don't be afraid to over shoot, its impossible.

[marypennie]

Did you shoot in RAW? You have a better chance in recovering a underexposed shot in RAW than Jpeg.

Unfortunately my photoshop skills are only surpassed by my photography skills. And you all know how I fare in that area of expertise. ;)

I think it was about three years ago while reading Photoshop for Dummies that I came across that term, RAW. It must have been very traumatic for me because I can't remember one thing about it (or more than likely told myself it wasn't something I would need to know about at the time). I came across it again while reading my camera's instruction manual back in December and saw that it takes up more room than jpeg's. That's all I needed to know...no RAW for me.

However, as I've learned and read more about photography, I do have that down as something I need to research and learn more about. You've reinforced my need to do this.

RebelRat and zmikers, I do appreciate your words of encouragement.

[RichNY]

Go ahead and post a few of your shots. Two things will happen:

1.) Someone will fix up your images so they are much better than in your current state of dissapointment

2.) We'll be able to share where you went wrong so you'll be in a better position next time.

[Riley]

Go ahead and post a few of your shots. Two things will happen:

1.) Someone will fix up your images so they are much better than in your current state of dissapointment

2.) We'll be able to share where you went wrong so you'll be in a better position next time.

I think that's very true

[zmikers]

I agree. Nothing to be embarassed about. If it helps, I'll show you some of my "brain fart" shocking attempts to show that this happens to everybody:p

[Riley]

its possible the images might be 'fixed up' PP
what is more important to my mind
is that the problems in the original setup are set straight for next time
that can only really be done by seeing the images

cheers

[NewTekBuzz]

Marrypennie,

I am sad to hear that things didnt go well. I had the same thing happen with my nephews soccer game. It was the first time I really got to use my new 70-200 f/2.8 zoom lens. 2 things went wrong for me.... 1.) bad lighting and 2.) the 200mm was not really enought reach. I cant fix number one and well... longer reach would fix number two.
there will be more chances to improve your shooting. start buy using those lenes around the house at night with just one light on, this will give you a chance to learn the Av mode better. The one thing that I did when I seen my soccer game was a flop was to look at every pic and study the shutter speed that I was getting and what ISO i was using.
anyway... post a pic or 2, it couldn't hurt.

Tim

[adam75south]

i also had my first attempt at some low light motion at a motocross track last night. i'll be posting that up as soon as i get done editing them. i ended up cranking my ISO up to 3200, shooting in M and underexposing so i could get a 1/200s shutter speed...i figure grain is better than a ton of motion blur.

[RebelRat]

I just remember this little thing. I generally have my focus point locked on the center point, unless i'm looking for a certain composition, i won't change the point of focus. I never let the camera choose where to focus. Especially when the subject is moving.

[marypennie]

Bucking up and getting over my embarrassment to post these. Reviewing the EXIF data it looks like I never even used Av mode. :( I guess my hand just automatically turned it to M.

This is my test shot of the instructors. It looked decent on the LCD, so I figured the settings would be okay. Didn't stop to think that dancing (i.e. moving) little ones would require a different setting.

28-105 lens
Manual mode
Shutter Speed: 1/60
Aperture: f/4.0
ISO: 800

[marypennie]

The following two are both at:

Shutter Speed: 1/6 (I know, waaaaaaay too slow)
Aperture: f/3.5
ISO: 800

It's okay. I know these are unsalvagable.

I think I'm going to print this entire thread and review it repeatedly.

Thanks to all for the advice!

[zmikers]

Well, this is what I would have done. First I would have set the ISO to 1600 or higher if available. This will allow you to get those shutter speeds up. Then I would have set my camera to M mode and set the largest aperature (lowest F number) which you already had at 3.5, and then set the shutter speed to around 1/60. This would have given me underexposed shots but you can fix that in lightroom or photoshop easier than you can fix the blur of a slow shutter speed.

These shots are actually closer than you think to getting nice pictures. Just quicker shutter speeds and you're there! Hope this helps a bit:D

[D Thompson]

Bucking up and getting over my embarrassment to post these. Reviewing the EXIF data it looks like I never even used Av mode. :( I guess my hand just automatically turned it to M.

This is my test shot of the instructors. It looked decent on the LCD, so I figured the settings would be okay. Didn't stop to think that dancing (i.e. moving) little ones would require a different setting.

28-105 lens
Manual mode
Shutter Speed: 1/60
Aperture: f/4.0
ISO: 800
I pulled this image into CS2 and took some readings. The highlights (the girls t-shirts) are very close to being blown out and this was shooting at 1/60 & f4.0 @ ISO800. IMO - I think you would have been fine shooting manual mode with ISO800, f4.0, & 1/80th-1/100th. This speed would have probably frozen the girls dancing and you wouldn't have gotten the ghosting effect and blurriness. If you use 1/60th without flash and there is movement then you are going to get a blurry shot. Even with flash and enough ambient light at 1/60 there may be some blurring or ghosting.

Hope this helps.

[JMWallace]

I am SO sorry that happened. Just remember a saying I heard a LONG LONG time ago..."there are no mistakes in life, just learning experiences."

I just looked at some of my shots for my neices concert. You should have been fine at ISO 800 and f/3.5. I was shooting in M and at 800 f/5.6 I was getting between 1/30 & 1/60.

I have a feeling what happened is that maybe, just maybe you should have stayedyour comfort zone of M.

When I look at the shots, it looks like the dark curtians are "almost" properly exposed. I think when you shot in Av that your meter was fooled a bit. Part of why I say that is the girls white is WAY blown out telling me that 1/6 was (of course) WAY to slow as you have already said.

If you would have stayed in your comfort zone I think you would have gotten it. It actually wouldn't have been that difficult. Curtain comes up, "OH CRAP, DIFFERENT LIGHTING, no big deal. Pick a dancer, meter off her face if possible (otherwise shirt then drop the shutter speed down a notch to two), check your shot on the LCD - use histogram if possible, make any minor adjustments and shoot away. You shouldn't have to touch it whether you were at 28 or 105.

ISO 1000 or 1600 would have difinately given you faster shutter speeds....BUT ONLY if the proper area was being metered.

Keep working at it. The only way you get better is trial and error.

[noyjimi]

The following two are both at:

Shutter Speed: 1/6 (I know, waaaaaaay too slow)
Aperture: f/3.5
ISO: 800

It's okay. I know these are unsalvagable.

I think I'm going to print this entire thread and review it repeatedly.

Thanks to all for the advice!

I'm late to the party but if it's anything like theater, it would probably have been 1/100-160, f/4 and iso 800... my experience anyway. the crucial detail is that the performers must be under spotlights.

[DonSchap]

Again, you are working under the most difficult circumstances imposed on a photographer. Ambient lighting conditions, medium to slow lensing a 1600 maximum IS0 (which introduces noticable levels of noise).

1/6th-second is totally undoable, as you've seen, and quite understandable why the images became blown out. Locked at 1/60 would have probably been close enough.

After reviewing what you have posted, the group of instructors came out looking to be managable, especially with post processing, but then again ... they were not moving and you say it was shot at 1/60th-second. Did you have any of the dancers at 1/60th?

The "movers and shakers" ... rethinking the shoot ... and now knowing the level of movement involved, a mode change to Tv (Shutter Speed priority) might be a better solution, because they ARE moving. You have a worst case scenario ... movement and low light varying to extreme spot light. The camera really struggles to average this out, that's why they invented spot-light-meters. Anyway ...

You need to freeze these fast moving performers. That can only be done at a higher shutter speed ... (Again, I would like to see any 1/60th shots you have just to check the exposure.) but, obviously it's a struggle and 1/100th or 1/125th speed would be better. (Again, this is usually a speed reserved for electronic flash use ... which usually assumes 1/60th or 1/125th speed, aperture set to f/4 and ISO-400.)

When you need these higher speeds:

Set Mode switch to Tv Set ISO to 800 Shutter Speed to 1/100th or 1/125th speed

This should be close enough, but what will that do to your aperture? Aperture should automatically MAX out, given the information you have provided. (Try it out, right now ... and see). Your camera wants all the light it can get based on the metering. If you cannot get the camera to automatically go to f/3.5 or f/4 in Tv mode ... then switch to manual mode and set it there. We're not taking "no" for an answer. We're going to wring every drop of light out of that camera/lens combination that it can provide.

With your camera/lens combo (XTi w/ 28-105 f/3.5-4.5)... your baseline, slowest setting (in this kind of scenario) should be 1/60th-second, your widest aperture f/3.5-f/4.5, your maximum ISO is 1600, but ONLY if 800 just can't provide the light.

I still believe these three are your best manual (M) settings, for this shoot, based on what you've shown.

Already being at ISO-800 ... if the images seem a little dark, then get your light by going to ISO-1600 (Maximum ISO for the XTi) and just live with the results. Yes, there will probably be noise in the shadows and blacks, but there are ways to fix that afterwards. What you want are clear subjects, most of all.

This may be a working solution ... or not. We all go through this ... and deal with the bitter results ... which usually winds up meaning ... more expensive equipment. :rolleyes:

Just try to remember, you are attempting to accomplish superior results with a mediocre array of equipment. The lensing is limited ... and even the camera is introductory. They don't make the "better stuff" by accident. There are legitimate situations that honestly require it ... and I do believe, you may be right in the middle of one.

Still, on second-thought, this does deserve just a little more control to be completely honest. The 1/6th-second exposure was "out of the envelope" and really cannot be a true reflection of what could have been acheived ... if we had stayed above 1/60th-second.

Keep plugging ... but try to be honest with yourself. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Remember, images come at you fast ... your experience may allow you to get half of them right. Best you can do ... is shoot a lot and weed through the result.

You can practice low-light shooting at home for results. You don't always need a real event to practice on.

Good luck and ... how do we get to Carnegie Hall? --> Practice, practice, practice. ;)

[sunnythepsychocat]

Again, you are working under the most difficult circumstances imposed on a photographer. Ambient lighting conditions, medium to slow lensing a 1600 maximum IS0 (which introduces noticable levels of noise).

1/6th-second is totally undoable, as you've seen, and quite understandable why the images became blown out. Locked at 1/60 would have probably been close enough.

After reviewing what you have posted, the group of instructors came out looking to be managable, especially with post processing, but then again ... they were not moving and you say it was shot at 1/60th-second. Did you have any of the dancers at 1/60th?

The "movers and shakers" ... rethinking the shoot ... and now knowing the level of movement involved, a mode change to Tv (Shutter Speed priority) might be a better solution, because they ARE moving. You have a worst case scenario ... movement and low light varying to extreme spot light. The camera really struggles to average this out, that's why they invented spot-light-meters. Anyway ...

You need to freeze these fast moving performers. That can only be done at a higher shutter speed ... (Again, I would like to see any 1/60th shots you have just to check the exposure.) but, obviously it's a struggle and 1/100th or 1/125th speed would be better. (Again, this is usually a speed reserved for electronic flash use ... which usually assumes 1/60th or 1/125th speed, aperture set to f/4 and ISO-400.)

When you need these higher speeds:

Set Mode switch to Tv Set ISO to 800 Shutter Speed to 1/100th or 1/125th speed

This should be close enough, but what will that do to your aperture? Aperture should automatically MAX out, given the information you have provided. (Try it out, right now ... and see). Your camera wants all the light it can get based on the metering. If you cannot get the camera to automatically go to f/3.5 or f/4 in Tv mode ... then switch to manual mode and set it there. We're not taking "no" for an answer. We're going to wring every drop of light out of that camera/lens combination that it can provide.

With your camera/lens combo (XTi w/ 28-105 f/3.5-4.5)... your baseline, slowest setting (in this kind of scenario) should be 1/60th-second, your widest aperture f/3.5-f/4.5, your maximum ISO is 1600, but ONLY if 800 just can't provide the light.

I still believe these three are your best manual (M) settings, for this shoot, based on what you've shown.

Already being at ISO-800 ... if the images seem a little dark, then get your light by going to ISO-1600 (Maximum ISO for the XTi) and just live with the results. Yes, there will probably be noise in the shadows and blacks, but there are ways to fix that afterwards. What you want are clear subjects, most of all.

This may be a working solution ... or not. We all go through this ... and deal with the bitter results ... which usually winds up meaning ... more expensive equipment. :rolleyes:

Just try to remember, you are attempting to accomplish superior results with a mediocre array of equipment. The lensing is limited ... and even the camera is introductory. They don't make the "better stuff" by accident. There are legitimate situations that honestly require it ... and I do believe, you may be right in the middle of one.

Still, on second-thought, this does deserve just a little more control to be completely honest. The 1/6th-second exposure was "out of the envelope" and really cannot be a true reflection of what could have been acheived ... if we had stayed above 1/60th-second.

Keep plugging ... but try to be honest with yourself. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Remember, images come at you fast ... your experience may allow you to get half of them right. Best you can do ... is shoot a lot and weed through the result.

You can practice low-light shooting at home for results. You don't always need a real event to practice on.

Good luck and ... how do we get to Carnegie Hall? --> Practice, practice, practice. ;)
It is so true.

[D Thompson]

With your camera/lens combo (XTi w/ 28-105 f/3.5-4.5)... your baseline, slowest setting (in this kind of scenario) should be 1/60th-second, your widest aperture f/3.5-f/4.5, your maximum ISO is 1600, but ONLY if 800 just can't provide the light.

I still believe these three are your best manual (M) settings, for this shoot, based on what you've shown.

At 1/60th and the little darlings dancing you are gonna get blur. Bump it to 1/100-1/125 and you'll freeze their action. I agree with the ISO800 & f3.5-4. In the shot with the teachers (1/60 f4 ISO800) the whites are very close to blown out, so she could have bumped up to 1/100-1/125th and been ok.

[DonSchap]

At 1/60th and the little darlings dancing you are gonna get blur. Bump it to 1/100-1/125 and you'll freeze their action. I agree with the ISO800 & f3.5-4. In the shot with the teachers (1/60 f4 ISO800) the whites are very close to blown out, so she could have bumped up to 1/100-1/125th and been ok.


Consensus (the hardest word in the photographer book of lingo) ... the next best thing to being there.

Photographers have a few nuances (peculiarities in normal language) that make their craft their own, but when it comes to exposure ... we all get pretty close. That comes from shutter snaps ... over and over ... "what works", "what kinda works", "what doesn't work" and the all-time-favorite -> "are you nuts?"

Soon, you will look at the light available and know right away if the rig you are carrying is capable of getting the shot.

Good luck on your next attempt, "marypennie"