*IF* I upgrade

[Kellie]

I bet that got your attention. :p

My husband thinks he needs a camera at work. Well, he does, but I don't want to be without one while he has it. He is building a portfolio (food - he's a chef) so that he can explore other options in his field. He specializes in fine dining, banquets and ice carving and our old p&s doesn't come anywhere close to capturing his art.

We considered getting another entry level dSLR, but since we planned to upgrade in the future anyway, it would make more sense to do that now (being tax time and all :cool: ). So, I guess I am looking at the D80 or D200. I will admit that the D200 will be WAY over my head for quite some time. I have yet to feel limited by the D40 so I highly doubt the D80 would limit me, lol.

The prices aren't that different for a whole lot more camera. But would someone like me really need that extra stuff? We'd still have the D40 for traveling, so size isn't a huge issue.

What are the major differences between the two? I think knowing that will help me be able to decide what features I do or don't need. I didn't bother comparing the two before because the D200 wasn't a consideration.

Is there a chart somewhere that will break this down for me? What would you do in this situation? Keep in mind, I am very new to dSLRs and photography in general.

[tcadwall]

:eek:

Did I say :eek: ?

Nah, I could tell you were getting the NAS bug badly.

There are of course quite a few differences in the two models, but there is a LOT similar too.

I don't think you would out-grow the D80 for quite some time. I personally am considering the D200 for the next upgrade (unless something more tempting comes up before I get to it).

I don't think the D80 has mirror - lockup. I don't think it has a wireless network option.

Other than those two things being "Missing entirely", the D200 would be better at metering and autofocus. The D200 will also handle much more abuse over the long-haul (shutter mechanism, sealed body, etc), though the D80 is very respectable durability-wise as well. The D200 is faster.

Thom Hogan does a pretty good comparison of the D80 and D200.
http://www.bythom.com/d80review.htm

Put this together with Nikon's comparison chart (http://www.nikonusa.com/fileuploads/pdfs/DLSR_comparison_chart_V2_060905.pdf), and you will be well on your way to comparing them.

[Kellie]

Thanks. Definitely leaning towards the D80 at this point.

Another question...should I get a kit or body only? Is the 18-135mm worth the extra that the kit will cost? We're still going to need to get a fast zoom (the Sigma 50-150mm f/2.8), but the 18-135mm could stay on the D40 and the D40's kit lens and 50-150mm could go with the D80. I haven't heard anything spectacular about the 18-135mm, though.

[VTEC_EATER]

Do you plan on replacing the kit lens with faster glass any time soon? If thats the case, I would save the money on the kit lens and use that towards a faster lens.

[tcadwall]

Hey Kellie,

Let's go back to the old question that kinda keeps repeating itself.

Look at your exif info on your existing shots...

What is your most used focal length?

I ask this, because, the 18-55 kit lens with the D40 might be best to stay with it. This will probably be a perfect range for everything from close-ups of plates, to table settings, to ice-sculptures, fruit baskets, etc.

I haven't researched the 18-135, but I would imagine that it is better built than the 18-55 in other ways, like the mount is probably better, etc. Would still get yourself a faster zoom, but the 18-135 is a pretty good range for stay-on-the-camera in all but sports or low-light type environments.

Now you need to think about an SB-600 too, since he will definitely need the SB400 for his shots. 8o)

[Kellie]

Well, the 18-135mm has a plastic mount. I think the major difference between it and the 18-55mm (aside from focal range) is that it has M/A-M instead of just A-M.

I don't plan to upgrade to a faster lens in the 18-55 range. I have been using it for all of the indoor shots and love it with bounced flash. I'm not concerned with shallow DOF for our family snapshots. So, I suppose the 18-135 will be a good all around lens on the D80.

Good point about the SB-600. Lots of stuff to consider!

[Ray Schnoor]

I can't be sure since I don't own a D80, but according to Jeff's review the D80 has "Exposure delay mode (on/off) - mirror lockup to prevent blur". When I look up exposure delay mode in the manual, it says nothing about locking up the mirror, though.

Ray.

[TNB]

Don't forget the rest of the lighting equipment, mirrors, reflectors, etc. if "food" is also going to be the subject.

[coldrain]

The D80 does not have mirror lock up, but it can open the mirror something like 0.8 sec. before exposure.

Kellie, if you plan to make photos in streaming rain and storms, the D200 would have the advantahe with appropriate weather sealed lenses. I myself am not "weather sealed" (meaning: you will not find me making photos when it is pooring down), so weather sealing is not a plus for me.

The other big difference is the frames per second speed. 5 fps vs 3fps from the D80. For me 3fps already is very fast, and I (almost?) never use it in any other way that single shot. So unless you feel the need to fill up cards with sequences in the hope to capture the right frame, you will not need that extra 2fps.

For the rest the differences are in the small details, and you probably will not need or miss those small details much. Both cameras have the same AF and metering electronics, the same sensor, the same processor.

So, I am quite sure the D80 will do fine for you. It also weighs a LOT less than the D200, in my view a big plus too.

[Ray Schnoor]

Although both the D200 and D80 have 10.2MP sensors, according to the reviews and Nikon, they are not the same sensor.

Ray.

[wannabe]

I have the D80 with the 18-135 lens. It is a very nice lens. I recently took it on vacation and loved it.

[tcadwall]

They don't have the same metering system and the autofocus system is less robust in the D80.

The sensor may be similar, but in the least, it is a 2channel dump version in the D80 and a 4channel dump in the D200.

As far as how the processing can be the same, much of the processing just has to be different because of the differences in the cameras. Maybe jpg algorithms are the same (if you shoot jpg).

While a lot of the hardware is similar, they aren't the same.

I thought we were listing the differences, not trying to sell one over the other.

But I must agree I think the D80 is probably a better fit for many people over the D200.

For me it will be the D200.

But really weather seals help keep dust under control, *should* help with condensation, and several other nemesis - not just rain. Heck, I wouldn't trust the seals in heavy rain anyway... It would go under a cover, if it had to go out at all.

With your signature, I am suprised that you aren't a shooter out in the cold rain. (ugghh that was pathetic wasn't it)

[jcon]

I agree that for the "regular" consumer, the D80 would suit them well. In my own opinion, the D200 is a better ISO performer, thus resulting in better noise control.

I also like the sealed body, as Tcadwall mentioned, it also protects against dust, condensation..etc..

As for Kellies situation, I wonder if the D200 might not fit her better, she likes to shoot bicylce racing of her hubby, and the D200 is better at sports photography because of its faster frame rate and focusing(it compares very favorably with the D2X:eek: ).

I would have to recheck prices, but I dont think the price difference is all that drastic.

But then again this whole thread is hindering on a big "IF":p

[tcadwall]

Body only prices are fairly far apart...

BH pricing on body only.

D200 $1300
D80 $924

Also, the 18-70 might be a better choice than the 18-135 according to Thom Hogan's review.

18-70mm BH pricing $309

So body plus lens in that situation is still less than D200

[Kellie]

I do believe you have confused me even more, lol.

It's more like a *when* than *if*. I will most likely be ordering one or the other before this weekend.

Thanks for the info. It's a lot to process...

[swgod98]

The 18-135 lens is a nice lens. It's biggest benefits are: 1) The range. Having the ability to go from a fairly nice wide angle to a decent zoom is very handy for indoors and outdoors. 2) It is sharp.

The two things I don't like about it. 1) It has purple fringing. I thought I left that behind with my point and shoot digicam! :\ 2) It has distortion. Straight things are not perfectly straight (and it's noticeable enough to be annoying to me).

Destpite it's flaws, I think it's a great walkaround lens.

As coldrain stated, the D200 can burst at 5 fps. This is handy if you are shooting sports or fast moving objects. But, not everyone uses it. I use my (D80) burst mode on occasion and would LOVE to have 5 fps in those situations (have you ever tried shooting with a camera that does 5fps? It will make you giddy!).

Someone had mentioned the D200 having better high ISO performance, of which I don't agree with. One thing I will mention is this: In my experience, the D80's JPG images are not nearly as good as it's RAW images. I usually don't care to "see" the difference. But, on occasion, I will crop a little too much, or want the most out of a particular image and realize the RAW file is better (more detail, less noise).

I don't know anything about the quality of the D200's JPG files...though they're probably similar.

If you're not concerned about size (or price), then the D200 is probably the better choice. But, the D80 really does have most of the D200's features.

[TNB]

I do believe you have confused me even more, lol.

It's more like a *when* than *if*. I will most likely be ordering one or the other before this weekend.

Thanks for the info. It's a lot to process...
Have you actually held both the D80 and the D200? To me, neither feel like the D40 and also to me, I prefer the feel of the D200 much better despite it being heavier--to me being heavier helps balance the camera when using a longer and heavier lens.

Myself, I also felt I didn't need the added "in camera" processing offered by the D80 and preferred the added features and add-ons available to the D200 that are not available for the D80, i.e. speed being the most important to me and something like wireless capability secondary but still an option. I also forgot all about those pre-set scene modes and moved rapidly towards shutter priority. Then again, I also prefer the faster glass so having a faster camera follows my own priorities.

Either way, it's pretty much a personal choice.

[Kellie]

I have held and used the D80. I haven't held the D200, though.

We're really pushing the budget with a new camera and fast zoom, so I'm still leaning towards the D80. I know the D200 has more to offer, but I don't think that I will appreciate the extras. Still pondering...

Thanks for all of the help!

[coldrain]

For one, the D80 does have the same AF system as the D200. Just because the D200 lets you configure it in different ways does not mean its system is not the same.

I think you will be happy with the D80, Kellie. The money you save can go to some nice lens, and the weight difference is considerable.

I would not get the 18-135 for its heavy distortion at both 18 and 135mm, its CA problems and its heavy vignetting. You already have that Sigma lens to cover more range anyway...

But of course I do not really know what kind of lens(es) would suit your requirements best.
I would check out a Sigma 18-50 f2.8 EX DC Macro and a Nikon 70-300 ED VR, but that of course will cost quite a bit.

[tcadwall]

Coldrain,

I didn't say that it wasn't the same "system" I know it is the same AF "system". I stated that the AF in the D200 is more robust. Are you arguing that statement? They will both work very well. Better than any Nikon less than the D80, but the D200 has an AF edge - regardless of whether it is the same system. Many users would not ever utilize the advantages - but it still is one of the differences and something to consider.

Nikon needed to make the D80 different enough that people would still buy the D200. But they needed to make the D80 good enough that consumers would choose it over other brands. I think they succeeded. They produced a camera that would encourage people to choose the D80 over other brands, and they made it different enough from the D200 that people that want / need the higher end D200 would still buy it.

This really says a lot for the D80. After all, the D200 really is IMO close enough to the D2Xs that many of us that would otherwise consider the D2Xs, don't have to shell out the big bucks because the D200 covers many of the reasons that we would want something more than the D80.

So if the D80 is that close to the D200 (and in quite a few respects it is) then it only speaks more for the value of the D80.

[Kellie]

My ever helpful husband has left the final decision to me. :p I am going with the D80. I think I am one of those people who will not utilize the extra features/benefits of the D200, so I would rather save the $400. We will probably be taking the D40 on our regular camping and hiking trips (unless I prefer a lens that will only AF on the D80 ;)). So although weight isn't an enormous factor, it is something to consider since the camera will live around my neck while out with my kids.

I do want to get the D80 with a good walk around lens. That is why the 18-135mm was appealing, but the reviews aren't so great. Is there a 3rd party lens I should consider that would cover approx the same focal length for around the same price? I don't want to be swapping lenses at the park with my kids. I also really like the wide end of the kit lens, so starting at 18mm is important.

Suggestions?

[tcadwall]

Kellie, the 18-70mm is pretty well regarded for optics and price. It isn't real fast, but it would complement the faster tele zoom you were looking for. If you later added something like the 50mm f/1.8 you would have a pretty well-rounded selection.

Most family (indoor and outdoor) shots I have fall between the 18 and 70mm range. Sports shots 50mm and up. I used my 18-200mm VR for a pageant that my daughter was in a couple weeks ago, and it did a great job. I was about 18-20 rows from the stage. My focal distance was mostly between 150 and 200mm. I had expected to need the speed of the 50mm, but ended up opting for the zoom range instead since the lighting was better than I expected.

I think in most cases, you can get by with the 18-70 walking around, but having the higher zoom available would be handy. Even so, you might not have to use the tele - end too often for most of your family shots.

OF COURSE, now you have many more lenses to choose from :) than with the D40.

---added---

From previous threads, and feeling like I understand your goals, I agree that the D80 would probably produce more satisfaction for you than the D200. Since you mention budget (which most of us have to consider), and pairing budget with your photography goals, buying the D80 will give you more flexibility in getting your tri-pod, monopod, flash solution, and lenses. These things IMO make the D80 over the D200 a no-brainer for you. I totally agree with your choice.

[coldrain]

The only lens that offers a focal range similar to that Nikon 18-135 is the Sigma 18-125. All in all the Sigma seems to be a bit better, but do not expect miracles from it either.

Here is a test of it on an Canon EOS 350D. Do not be deterred by the focus problems in that 350D, on a D80 it will focus much more reliable.

http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/sigma_18125_3556/index.htm

Here is a review of the Nikon 18-135 for comparisson, do take into consideration that the resolution of the 350D is lower, and you can therefore not compare the resolution figures without doing some extensive conversion of them.

http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/nikkor_18135_3556/index.htm

[Kellie]

I've been calling around and found a D80 body (open box that was a demo, but still has full warranty) and 18-70mm for $1200 total. I really think the 18-70mm range will be plenty for a walk around lens and according to bythom.com it is much better than the 18-135mm. I might be picking it up today. :eek:

[tcadwall]

Kellie, sounds good.

What I have typically seen, is that electronics stores, normally keep something of this level locked up in glass. They typically don't have lenses to interchange to show customers different lens results. This is a pretty good thing if you are buying a demo.

But, if it is a camera store, there is a good chance that the camera has been mated to different lenses, batteries have been in and out, etc. If this is the type of store, then see if they will clean it for you first. You never know, it might have some sensor dust if lens changes have been excessive. Also make sure that you get the charger and battery, as well as the rest of the accessories (including manual - which will show what accessories you should get).

If it is a camera store, but they don't do cleanings themselves, then just make sure you check for sensor dust. You do this by defocusing on a well lit brightish white backdrop, and then load the image on your laptop (if you have one) to see if you find spots. - in this case, maybe see if you can talk them down further to cover the cost of a cleaning.

Best of luck! and Congratulations!

[shoeytennis]

doesnt anyone shop on ebay anymore?
very rubtuable dealers for way cheap then 1200.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NIKON-D80-DIGITAL-SLR-CAMERA-W-NIKON-LENSES-1GB-FLASH_W0QQitemZ140081577731QQihZ004QQcategoryZ1471 74QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

brand new 1300 with tons of stuff.

[jcon]

Shoey, I do alot of business on eBay. However, when it comes to specialized electronics, like cameras, I am very weary. Mainly because they throw in cheap unusable crap, just like the one you posted, those lenses wouldnt be ideal, the filters wouldnt be worth the space they take up in the drawer. Sadly thats the case with most camera "kits". Your money is better spent at reputable retailers and buying what you want and need.

Congrats, Kellie. I know you will love the D80. Be sure to post some pics once you get your new toy!

[tcadwall]

While the proxy here doesn't let me check eBay, in the past I have found similar issues with eBay listings on cameras. When you add up only the extras that you really care about that are good enough to really use, they normally aren't as great a deal as the package appears. I like BH, Adorama, etc. but I have been fortunate enough to find a local shop that I LOVE and most of the time their prices beat the top online sites.

[Kellie]

Kellie, sounds good.

What I have typically seen, is that electronics stores, normally keep something of this level locked up in glass. They typically don't have lenses to interchange to show customers different lens results. This is a pretty good thing if you are buying a demo.

But, if it is a camera store, there is a good chance that the camera has been mated to different lenses, batteries have been in and out, etc. If this is the type of store, then see if they will clean it for you first. You never know, it might have some sensor dust if lens changes have been excessive. Also make sure that you get the charger and battery, as well as the rest of the accessories (including manual - which will show what accessories you should get).

If it is a camera store, but they don't do cleanings themselves, then just make sure you check for sensor dust. You do this by defocusing on a well lit brightish white backdrop, and then load the image on your laptop (if you have one) to see if you find spots. - in this case, maybe see if you can talk them down further to cover the cost of a cleaning.

Best of luck! and Congratulations!

It is a local camera store. I have actually been on the phone with them a couple times today because I was rethinking the open-box body. I thought the same thing about dust and how many people have handled the camera. With local sales tax, I won't be saving much.

Beachcamera.com has the the kit with the 18-70mm for $1249, free shipping and no sales tax. I think this is my best bet right now.

As for ebay, I have had a couple terrible experiences and don't even consider it anymore. I'm sure there are some great deals with reputable sellers, but I just can't bring myself to bid on anything there. Especially when this much money is involved.

[shoeytennis]

oo i buy 95% of my things online and never have problems.

[Kellie]

Well, I have the D80 and 18-70mm in my hands. :eek: I went to another local camera chain (National Camera Exchange - I think they are only in MN) and got quite a deal. The D80 body is an open box, but it was a return that had been sent back to Nikon for cleaning before they put it back on the shelf. It was $150 off and in perfect condition with full warranty starting today. I brought my laptop and checked for dust and there was none. This store has a 30 day money back, no questions asked return policy with no restocking fee and they are well know for their quality control.

The lens is used, but in excellent condition. That was also $150 off. It doesn't have the 5 year warranty, but does have a 90 day guarantee and I thoroughly tested it in the store.

My first impression...it's too big (ducking tomatoes). I'm sure I will feel more comfortable with it in a few days, but it is the biggest camera I have ever owned. :p

Thanks again for all of the help!

[eduardofrances]

this of course is IMHO.

The D40, D50, and D70s have one slight problem when using them for pro stuff with non UV coated monolights, there is a variation on color due this, and it is hard to remove, in food photography you have to be VERY picky when colors are the issue that color variation tends to be violet color (specially in black and similar colors) so keep that in mind.

the D80 is so closely priced to the D200 that it really makes the D200 a no brainer, wheater seals, magnesium alloy body, four channel reading, 100,000 shutter cycles life expectation (doubles the D80 shutter life expectation), etc.

The D80 isn't a slouch is a great camera and I think is pretty well above the contenders in its class,but when comparing it to the D200, the D200 is better in almost anyway (noise? pfff is overrated.... since noise can be destroyed with noise reduction proggies, today it isn't an issue like in the times of the D1X) the D200 is much better.

[tcadwall]

Congrats Kellie!!!!!


Eduardo...
The D200 is roughly 40% more expensive than the D80. And she got it for less than the price used to calculate that percentage.

They aren't THAT close in price.

I'll wait til I can swing the D200 though.

[dcab30]

Congrats Kellie on the new purchase! Since you have both the D40 and D80 now in your possession please share your thoughts once you get more shots under your belt. :)

[coldrain]

My first impression...it's too big (ducking tomatoes). I'm sure I will feel more comfortable with it in a few days, but it is the biggest camera I have ever owned. :p

Haha, yes it is big compared to your D40 or my 350D... imagine if you had gone for a D200! It is even bigger and quite a bit heavier too.

I think you made a wise choice in going for the D80, and I hope you will get to enjoy using it. And about the lens warranty, lenses rarely develop a problem. A drop of a lens is not covered anyway...
Glad to read you found a nice deal, have fun!

[swgod98]

the D80 is so closely priced to the D200 that it really makes the D200 a no brainer.

lol, did you not read her post about the D80 already being too big? The D200 is not even a consideration for her. And, as tcadwell mentioned, the D80 is a nice lens cheaper than the D200.

[Kellie]

Second impression...the front rotating dial rocks! Dedicated buttons definitely make switching settings quicker (not that I know enough to switch them a lot yet). 11 AF points confuse me. The big viewfinder is really nice. There are way too many custom settings. It's still a bit too heavy. :p

I think I'm going to learn to love it, though. :o

[britkev]

Congrats on the new toy...

can't help wondering if <36 hours from posting "If I upgrade" to getting home with the thing is some kind of NAS record ;)

[Kellie]

Congrats on the new toy...

can't help wondering if <36 hours from posting "If I upgrade" to getting home with the thing is some kind of NAS record ;)

Well, when I posted I knew I would be getting one or the other, but didn't want to admit that after all of the negative D40 posts. ;)

But yes, I do believe NAS has taken hold and it isn't helping that my husband appears to be suffering from it as well. This could get quite dangerous.

[jcon]

.....
But yes, I do believe NAS has taken hold and it isn't helping that my husband appears to be suffering from it as well. This could get quite dangerous.

Ok, that could be a bad sign of things to come, you need to put your money away in a safe place and make sure you dont spend it on Nikon gear. My suggestion is this....

Send me all your money:D :o



***Ofcourse, I'm only teasing and poking fun.

[coldrain]

Well, when I posted I knew I would be getting one or the other, but didn't want to admit that after all of the negative D40 posts. ;)

Don't go blaming all your spending on me :p

:D

[tcadwall]

Send me all your money:D :o

Wait a minute, I thought our taxes already threw some money your way! :D

- Probably the best thing that has been done with federal spending in a long time!

[jcon]

Wait a minute, I thought our taxes already threw some money your way! :D

- Probably the best thing that has been done with federal spending in a long time!

Ouch!:p

I'm not a greedy person but when im not allowed to work(or look for work) and have no income, I am open to free money from anyone, especially the government!! LOL

I know, It's all in good fun.:)

[eduardofrances]

Congrats Kellie!!!!!


Eduardo...
The D200 is roughly 40% more expensive than the D80. And she got it for less than the price used to calculate that percentage.

They aren't THAT close in price.

I'll wait til I can swing the D200 though.

oopos :D my bad sorry, yeah but consider that even when there is a 40% difference, 1230 and 925 aren't that far (if you have a strict plan you could save that money in 3 or 4 months), 8 months ago It would had been different since the D200 was more expensive than today ;)