Repair Advice, Canon S2IS, Matrix or Diaphragm?

[rbtcnd]

Repair Advice, Canon S2IS, Matrix or Diaphragm?
I am having a problem with my Canon S2IS and I need some advice how to proceed. Let me begin by saying I am not camera savvy so please answer me in “camera idiot” language.

The Camera history:
I bought a new Canon S2IS in Canada about 18 months ago. The camera has not been used extensively and also has always been treated gently. About 4 months ago (just after expiration of the warranty :( ) the camera started to display the following symptoms intermittently. The LCD would be black in all shooting modes (LCD works fine in “review” mode as I can view any photos I took before the problem started and any photos I load on to the card from an external source). Also, the camera will take a photo in any shooting mode, but the photo is just black. But it did take a photo and I could see in review mode that an all black photo had been taken. I was able to get rid of the problem temporarily by turning the camera off and on or switching back and forth between shooting mode and review mode. The problem continued occurring more and more frequently until finally the LCD was permanently black in shooting mode.

I did some research on the internet and found that these symptoms match exactly the symptoms many cameras (not only Canon) have been having with the matrix (CCD). There are many websites saying it is caused by a defective CCD where the wiring comes loose and most manufacturers are offering free repair regardless of warranty status.

My problem:
I am now living permanently in Ukraine. I am living in a small city that does not have a Canon digital camera service center. I took the camera to a Canon rep here (however they are not a service center). I told him the symptoms and he looked at it for about 1 minute (he did not take it apart and look inside) and immediately said it is a defective matrix and a common problem not only with Canon cameras. I asked how sure he was, he said 110%.

I checked Canon Canada/America and Western Europe websites and all offer free repair for this problem. I called the closest Canon service center (about 600km away in Kiev) and the rep told me, “In Eastern Europe we don’t give a f#%$ what the Canon websites in Canada or Western Europe say about free repair, we are not repairing it for free”. After further internet research I found the parent company of Eastern Europe Canon is in Finland (which IS part of Canon Western Europe). I phoned Finland, who asked me to followup with an email and shortly thereafter the Canon rep in Kiev RELUCTANTLY said I can ship the camera to any Canon service center in Kiev and IF the problem is the matrix they will repair it for free.

As I said, the problem occurred almost 4 months ago, it was 2 months convincing Kiev Canon rep to accept my camera, I shipped it to Kiev, it sat on the shelf of the service center for 2 months! After many phone calls someone finally looked at it. And, as I expected, they told me there is no problem with the matrix/CCD, the problem is that the diaphragm doesn’t open. That to repair the problem means replacing the entire lens system for $325US and better to buy a new camera from them (convenient!).

I am suspicious they are bullshitting me and need advice. I told them to return the camera to me and I now have it back in my possession.

Advice?
Is there any way for ME to test if the problem is the matrix/CCD or if it is the diaphragm?

If not, as I said before, there are some Canon reps here (but not service centers). Is there anything they could do to test if the problem is the matrix/CCD or if it is the diaphragm?

If not, any other suggestions how I should proceed? It seems crazy that after 14 months the camera has a problem where the solution is to throw it in the garbage and buy a new one.

I have one other option, an American friend from Ohio will be visiting me soon and I could send the camera with him to Ohio for diagnosis. Not my preferred option since he doesn’t know when he is coming back.

Thank-you in advance,
Frustrated

[RJC]

turn the camera on, set to widest zoom with largest aperature (f/2.8), with a bright light, look into the lens and see if the aperature is open. if you cant see a little "hole" then they probably are telling the truth.

If you can see a little "hole" then they are probably lying to you. Also, if you can see the "hole", go from f/2.8 to f/8 and you should be able to see the "hole" getting smaller.

[BowerR64]

Ive never heard of the term diaphram with cameras. Is it part of the CCD or the apature mechanism?

There is only 2 things that can cause a blank screen thats the CCD or the shutter. I think the S2 has a shutter doesnt it?

When i set my S2 to F8 the hole is really tiny, it then opens all the way up and then goes small again when it takes a shot. This is manual mode 1/80 and F8 but i can see the apature move when i take the shot.

Do you see somthing like this?

[RJC]

Ive never heard of the term diaphram with cameras. Is it part of the CCD or the apature mechanism?

There is only 2 things that can cause a blank screen thats the CCD or the shutter. I think the S2 has a shutter doesnt it?

When i set my S2 to F8 the hole is really tiny, it then opens all the way up and then goes small again when it takes a shot. This is manual mode 1/80 and F8 but i can see the apature move when i take the shot.

Do you see somthing like this?

the diaphragm is what actually makes up the aperture.

the aperture is the actual opening, while the diaphragm is what makes the opening.

which is why i suggested what i suggested in my previous post.

Also, I dont know what your talking about when you say the aperture opens when you take a shot.

This is how the system works on the S3 and most digital p&s.

-The aperture stays fully open (on S3 even wider than f/2.8) so the camera can have live display.

-when shutter button is half pressed to autofocus, the aperture changes to the actual f/stop, with the aperture still open.

-when the shutter button is fully pressed, the shutter closes over the already opened aperture to stop the light from hitting the sensor.


so with P&S the shutter is always open, and only closes when the shot is taken, which is unlike a SLR or film camera, where the aperture is always covered until a shot is taken, in which the shutter then opens.

[BowerR64]

It may have somthing to do with the stabalization but thats what the S2 does. I looked at it before i made this post. I tried it at F2.8 and F8

The apature is moving because i can see it open and close. Unless its a shutter behind the apature that i see closing.

The Fstops on the S2 arnt even real Fstops. If you watch the S2 adjust its apature its only moving in 3 steps. there is fully open, half closed then closed as small as it goes. It must be faking the other stops some how because it only has 3 mechanical modes that you can actualy see.

If you have an S2 or S3 test it yourself. I have an HP that goes from F2.8 to F11 and you can actualy see its stops and it works similar to the S2 as far as somthing is closing behind the apature and you can see it change.

[RJC]

It may have somthing to do with the stabalization but thats what the S2 does. I looked at it before i made this post. I tried it at F2.8 and F8

The apature is moving because i can see it open and close. Unless its a shutter behind the apature that i see closing.

The Fstops on the S2 arnt even real Fstops. If you watch the S2 adjust its apature its only moving in 3 steps. there is fully open, half closed then closed as small as it goes. It must be faking the other stops some how because it only has 3 mechanical modes that you can actualy see.

If you have an S2 or S3 test it yourself. I have an HP that goes from F2.8 to F11 and you can actualy see its stops and it works similar to the S2 as far as somthing is closing behind the apature and you can see it change.


What move are the aperture blades, which are part of the diaphragm, to create the size of the aperture.

Also, you have the have press the shutter button to see the actual aperture size. Like I already mentioned the aperture is not the real f/stop when not taking a photo.

I just confirmed and verified on my S3, you can see incrementally smaller aperture as you raise the f/stop to f/8, but only when you half press the shutter.

You can't fake F/stops, it is physically not possible. As the f/stop directly affects the light reaching the sensor.

[BowerR64]

Your right, now that i get it into some good light i can move the apature one step at a time and push the button halfway and it then closes down each step.

The moderator on the c-net forum said the diaphragm is more comonly known as the apature.

So if the repair place claims the spature is not working you should be able to test it and see if its working. If the apature is working when the shot is taken then it has to be the sensor.

Sometimes you can bang on the camera case and it will start working again. They say its just a connection problem, banging on it seems to help.

[rbtcnd]

BowerR64 and RJC, thanks for your replies and explanations.

So, if I am understanding correctly, the diaphragm is the leaves that open and close to create the size of the aperture.

Is it possible for the diaphragm to be stuck such that the aperture is completely closed?

If not, and the aperture has to be open (whether small or large) then why, when I take a photo, would I get a completely black image (as opposed to something, even if it is garbage?)?

And following on my (amateur) thread of logic, this would then mean my problem is the CCD and not the diaphragm.

I welcome corrections to my logic!

[RJC]

it is very possible that it has become either stuck because of something inside the camera body from the manufacturing process, or that the motor that controls it has died.

However, I highly suggest trying to look through the lens to see if you can see it opening or closing.

[BowerR64]

How many shots are on the camera do you think? maybe there is a limit to how many snaps it can take before it mechanicly fails? maybe some of the rest of us may start having problems when we reach the limit of snaps it takes.

I think i read that there is a limit to how many snaps some high end SLR cameras take wich is like 10k snaps but the S2 may break down before then.

[RJC]

How many shots are on the camera do you think? maybe there is a limit to how many snaps it can take before it mechanicly fails? maybe some of the rest of us may start having problems when we reach the limit of snaps it takes.

I think i read that there is a limit to how many snaps some high end SLR cameras take wich is like 10k snaps but the S2 may break down before then.


i have over 7800 photos on my S3 since Christmas, with a few outings of an hour or two in cold Canadian -20C weather.

I would hope a DSLR could take more than 10 000 shots, especially since there isnt a shutter in the body, or an aperture, or any zoom mechanics (except motor on some). So i think that number is way way off.

[pdran]

turn the camera on, set to widest zoom with largest aperature (f/2.8), with a bright light, look into the lens and see if the aperature is open. if you cant see a little "hole" then they probably are telling the truth.....

I had exactly the same problem. I checked it the way you described above and found that the diaphragm blades move perfectly as well as the zoom, autofocus and the rest of the camera.
A couple of months ago the CCD appeared to have some humidity condensed on it, but the Canon Service in Athens (Greece) considered it to be due to my faulty use! So they refused to clean it on their expense. After a while it went black (blank view blank images shot) but was self-repaired once or twice. A month later (20 days after the expiration of the guarantee) it blacked out for good.
I suspect this damage has a connection with the previous one. In Canon they told me that the lens is damaged of impulse (it has no sign of misuse) and I have to pay 250 euros to replace it. They don't cover the damage because they simply don't like to!!
Do you have any idea to whom I should address? I don't find the Greek representative in the Canon European List. (Maybe this is why they are so irresponsible)
I understood that with firms like this there is no use to seek for long term guarantee, since they refuse to cover by simply claiming misuse.
I was in love with this apparatus and cannot throw it away now. On the other hand, the price one can find it now is not far from the repair cost.
Thank you for your patience.
P. D.

[BowerR64]

i have over 7800 photos on my S3 since Christmas, with a few outings of an hour or two in cold Canadian -20C weather.

I would hope a DSLR could take more than 10 000 shots, especially since there isnt a shutter in the body, or an aperture, or any zoom mechanics (except motor on some). So i think that number is way way off.


I would hope not too but the IS mechanism is in there an may cause problems to the rest of the mechanism.

[kumarvarun]

Hey Everyone,

First of All, please Don't Panic. The CCD ( sensor ) defect / Black screen of death problem is on the rise. Its becoming a common issue with the S2 IS owners. Send in the Camera with this completed form ( http://consumer.usa.canon.com/app/pdf/dealer/FSC.pdf )

Mailing Address
CANON FACTORY SERVICE CENTER
1440 CHASE AVENUE
Elk Grove Village, IL 60007
(630) 250-6500

Briefly explain the situation and request for a courtesy repair. Good news is that Canon is repairing the Problem at ZERO Charge.
I'm certain that in the next few months Canon would issue an Advisory for a product recall as in the case of S1 IS.

S2 IS is a beautiful camera and Canon's customer service is fabulous. Hence please don't spread negative stories about Canon.

Regards,

Varun
A Proud S2 IS owner

[vpolineni]

I called and they would not offer a free repair.. quoted me 119 dollars.

[TEMPA]

Hey guys,

I know this thread is quite old but I haven't been here for a long time.... :o

I had this exact problem occur with my S3 TWICE. Once about 4 months I bought and it was repaired under warranty. Took them 3ish weeks to get it back to me. And again three weeks ago it died on me. Same problem.

This time it was a month out of the 12 months warranty.... When I returned it this time I demanded a refund or credit on the camera due to the repeating issues....

After two weeks of hard work on the company I bought it from I finally managed to convince them it was in their best interests to offer me the refund. I think they got sick of the constant phone calls and the fact that I went as high as the state sales manager of the company that sold the product. I was given a full refund for the purchase price of the camera, even after I had ownmed it for over 12 months. :D

The law here in Australia protects consumers quite well and as such I was able to use our Trades Practices Act against the seller to get them to comply to my wishes. Here in Australia the purchase "contract" is with the seller, not with the manufacturer. Therefore I was never involved in contacting Canon directly and there was certainly no mention of me paying Canon for any repairs.

I am not sure if this will be of any help to anyone else with this issue but I would have thought that from a "customer relations" point of view most of the larger, better known retailers would be willing to assist in some way if their customers are unhappy.

Cheers,

TEMPA