Superzooms are on the way out

[Riley]

Sort of ....... in the beggining
their were dSLRs and compacts
Company's that had less of a place in dSLRs generated bridging cameras, the super-zooms. Other companies had decided that they should compete in this market and developed their own superzooms.

In this coming year, it is thought that sales of compacts will top out, and many in the market will move to dSLRs, thus increasing the dSLR portion of the market. Previously the market was 89% point and shoot, and 11% dSLR, with dSLRs bringing in 30% of revenue.

So for the coming year, no surprise that there are new market entrants into dSLRs, and a strengthening of position from existing suppliers. It seems clear that the low end of the market will be fought out on price.

Since many of the superzoom makers now also have dSLRs, they are in effect competing with themselves where they used to take a margin away from the dSLR market as a whole. Sony have been the first to spot this conundrum and have strangled supply of the R1, which is clever because if they straight out axed it the rest of the market would look as to why, and reconsider their own position.

In my judgment, the days of superzooms are numbered

[Elisha]

that would be nice if an entry level DSLR can do what the superzooms can do nowadays.

[David Metsky]

Most folks don't see any advantage to a dSLR except for high ISO. Plus, they're bigger, more complex, don't have preview, and don't take video. You need to switch (expensive) lenses to achieve the same range as the ultrazoom 12x lenses.

The majority of the photo taking world isn't interested in the advantages that a dSLR offers (versatility, high ISO, top notch image quality). They want good quality images without a lot of hassle. Cameras that deliver that will sell, no matter what technology they use.

[mattdm]

I think Riley's generally right on the category of "bridge cameras" in general. Take a look at the Canon G7 -- no more RAW support. And Olympus no longer makes the awesome Camedia series (like the C5060 and relatives). SLRs are where the money is, and if you're a camera manufacturer with a decent offering in the low-end SLR category, you don't want to undermine yourself.

However, I don't think this category will die completely, because there's simply too many different camera makers. If there's a niche, someone will try to address it. And there's definitely a niche here, because the bridge cameras can be more compact, don't require special dust removal features, and, having smaller sensors, have higher apparent zoom range with smaller lenses.

[DonSchap]

As a photographer, once you go SLR, though ... and appreciate what is possible ... the niche kind of gets ... filled in ... with "glass."

The market will dictate the market. If the need is there, someone will get rich. :D

'Tweeners come and go.

[ARP]

I think Superzooms will be around for a while. I agree with other posters that until DSLR's can do the same as Superzooms (a "true" live preview, really good walkaround lens, easy to use auto features), then Superzooms will be around for a while. In fact I think they could recapture some of the entry level SLR market if they could:

1) Improve high ISO shooting (bigger or better CCD/CMOS). I'm willing to give up some zoom range and a high megapixel count for this.
2) Give up some of the zoom for a slightly wider angle (e.g. 28-300)
3) Keep a good aperature throughout zoom range (2.8 would be ideal)

Sony tried this with their camera but it's a bit too big and clumsy.

So my ideal superzoom would be:

1) 6-8 MP with a larger DSLR style CCD/CMOS for better ISO performance. It doesn't need to be the huge CMOS that Sony used.
2) Focal range of 24-28 to 250-300 (rougly 7-10X)
3) 2.8 Apt. throughout zoom range.
4) Physical anti-shake
5) Full auto and manual settings.

Of course, how to package this in a managable size/price is another story. Admittingly, this has somewhat broken down into a "ideal camera" post, I think it shows Superzooms potential.

[mjsneddon]

I think that the so-called super-zooms will be around for a while. I currently own three digital cameras but have been seriously considering acquiring a Canon S3 for the following reasons:

1. My "pocket" camera (Panasonic LX2), while smaller than an S3 and having a wider FOV stops far short of the S3 at the long end of the zoom.

2. My main dSLR (Canon 5D with battery grip and batteries) plus my typical walk-around lens (28-70) weighs in at 79.5 ounces (2.26 kg). My other dSLR (Canon 20D without battery grip) + my lightest lens (50mm f1.4) tips the scale at 37.4 ounces (1.06 kg). The Canon S3 with batteries weighs a mere 18 ounces (511 grams). Bottom line here: Sometimes I am willing to give up superior image quality and awesome low-light, high ISO performance for something small and lightweight but still very capable.

Just my opinion. Actually I am still wrestling with the issue of do I really need a superzoom or can I be happy with my Panasonic LX2. My wife is no help - she already firmly believes that I already own too much photographic stuff. She has a Canon SD300 and thinks that no one needs more than that. Oh well.

[Rhys]

I think SUperzooms still have a place.

People will buy them thinking they have a dSLR but will then need extras - longer and wider lenses etc. Then they'll buy a dSLR.

As far as sales are concerned, the compacts market will top out soon. People have compacts. Most only ever print to 6x4 so they don't need more megapixels. We're all megapixeled-out. Who can honestly say they really need more than 6mp for 99% of applications? Most people now will only be buying new cameras if they offer facilities they cannot live without or if their existing cameras break.

The Canon S1 IS is a phenomenal superzoom. I have one. I won't upgrade unless it dies. Similarly I have a Nikon 3100 which is a phenomenal compact which I won't replace until it too dies. I even have a Nikon 995 which I can use for macro (read ebay). All print to 10x8 so I don't need more than 3mp as I'm highly unlikely to print to more than 10x8 for personal use.

I even have an SLR. Why Canon crippled the AF on the XT, I don't know but again, I won't be upgrading as 8mp is more than enough - even for pro applications. I might get a 30D if I get into wedding photography though.

[Riley]

i dont disagree that some of these cameras are worthwhile
and I can understand that they have a following, even a considerable one
but if the camera goes against a companies strategic needs
they will chop it in a heartbeat
as has been pointed out this has happened before

there is coming some reshaping of the middle of the market
we have seen this already in the xti, to an extent the D40, the E400, and the G7

[mjsneddon]

I am certainly no expert when it comes to marketing. However, it occurs to me that once a product has been introduced into the market and found its niche, a manufacturer is ever so cautious about moving people out of that niche into another.

The public will let the manufacturer know when it is time to abandon a niche by simply not spending its money on that product in sufficient quantity to justify staying in that niche.

The best example of a mistake in this area was when Coca-Cola changed the formulation of their signature product and attempted to pursuade the public that they should buy the new product. They soon learned that their attempt to move the public was not a good idea.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[JLV]

Maybe the superzoom wars have just begun. Check out this link. Olympus is coming out with an 18X zoom.




http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/3697/first-look-olympus-sp-550-uz.html

[Elisha]

looks pretty badass but i hate XD cards.
rather stick with SD.

[Riley]

lol
it isnt long, its loooooooooong

wonder what the EVF is like

they used to take 2 types of card Elisha

[Razr]

Unless and until my SLRs can give me 735mm @ f/3.5 max aperture w/monopod and under three pounds, I will continue to shoot my superzooms.

So I have to give up true wide angle.
No real loss to me: I do not shoot much in the way of landscapes outdoors in any case and my indoor work is most often done with a 24mm f/1.4 rectiliniar lens.

[Wesan]

I think it seems like the superzoom cameras are getting better and better from each model or generation to the next. I'd guess they will soon put larger sensors in them, as the number of pixels keeps increasing. Then, the image quality will get better, and at higher ISO too. The lenses will move closer to dSLR-lenses, when it comes to aperture (the aperture settings will grow at both "ends", let's say with f-stops from 1.8 to 27). In short, they will be more competitive with the dSLR-cameras.

Maybe professional photographers at the "low and middle end" of "the ladder" (if you see what I mean...? Sorry for my English... :o ) will use advanced superzoom cameras instead? And only those with the highest demand for image quality and versatility, and who don't mind paying for it, will use dSLRs?

Superzooms are already good value for the money. I think they'll keep being that, and become even better.

Does anyone beleive in this future?

[Riley]

highly unlikely Wesan
Sony have now officially chopped the R1
which was the only large sensor P&S around
they did this i believe, b/se it competes with their dSLR aquisitions
not because it wasnt popular or good
in fact its images were first class

the other thing is
it gets much more difficult to provide long zooms with larger sensors
indeed much easier with tiny sensors

Riley

[Norm in Fujino]

Maybe the superzoom wars have just begun. Check out this link. Olympus is coming out with an 18X zoom.

Yes, if the SP-550 UZ has ED glass and produces images on a par with their 7xx UZ series, it should sell very well indeed.

[Riley]

I think you have Olympus gear tho Norm
and you would be as aware as anyone as to the oddball things Olympus does
like when they canned the apparently successful C5050 and C7070 series
Olympus are about to hit the hay ride with 3 new dSLRs and 6 more lenses
it will be interesting to see if the SP-550 lasts

the bit that will tell if Im right or not is when, or not
the S3is is defeatured like G7 was, or cut from Canons lineup
or if Panasonic doesn't develop further the FZ50, being that the FZ8 is around the corner (Q: is FZ8 so different from FZ7?)
look for is a more marked delineation between dSLRs and P&S

[gilly]

Superzooms will always be around. I've got an FZ20, I'm about to shell out the big bucks on a 5D and some L glass, but theres still no way I'll let the FZ20 go. For travelling etc I don't need the worry of all the heavy lenses, and I don't need the worry of theft/damage while travelling. A compact doesn't quite cover my needs, where the FZ20 is a perfect compromise.

Back when I was looking to buy the FZ20 I thought about a 300D etc and reached the conclusion that all that glass was too expensive, the FZ20 will be more than I'll ever want... Then I got bitten by that well known photography bug, can't put the camera down and things have changed!

Superzooms in a way introduce people to the world of DSLR photography, give you a glimpse of what is possible - just enough to tease you so you can't resist digging deep into your pockets a year or so later for the real deal to get the real results!

[DonSchap]

After a recent discussion with the "teenaged-generation", the convenience of the "bridge" was quickly evaluated and demostrated by a younger member. With this quick understanding and demonstrated use, I do not believe SLRs are ever going to be the accepted replacement. They require too much expertise and practical photographic knowledge.

One of the problems I have noticed is that the "current youth" is dedicated to convenience over education ... they simply have no desire to understand something, only how to make it usable ... by pressing right, left, and quickly press the red button twice.

If you could hook a XBOX or NES game controller to everything in the near future, the interface would be complete.

Frankly, I'm a little scared. :eek:

[Riley]

while i respect your opinion Don, they are not exactly intimidated by technology either. In any event, how many dSLRs are in P mode, hell all but a few dont have aperture rings and speed dials anymore anyhow.

or if you dont agree with all that

why did Canon take away the fast lens, raw mode, vari-angle screen, IR remote, big long-life battery, LCD status panel from the G7, and its apparently quite expensive.

Why is FZ7, that comes without hotshoe, flip LCD, manual focus and zoom rings, to be replaced with FZ8, while there is no FZxx to replace the FZ50 in sight

Why was the R1, the P&S with the best images cut from the lineup, coincidently at the introduction of Sony's takeover of the Konica/Minolta dSLR concerns?

I dont doubt these cameras are popular, but there must be a reason they are reducing features, as opposed to adding them as they were just a year ago.

[BowerR64]

Anyone see that new P&S sigma camera with the 14mp foveon sensor in it? its the same sensor the SD14 has in it.

I betcha betcha betcha the super zooms evolve into cameras that use todays SLR sensors.

What i figured would happen is how Nvidia does with their video cards. Todays top of the line video card will be the MX in a few months from now. I figured they would keep using the same sensors but move them down into the P&S cameras as the SLR sensors improve.

IMO the zoom is fine. 12-18X is all i really need if the glass gets better, the wide end gets better and the ISO improves that would be al i would really want in a future camera.

[mattdm]

Anyone see that new P&S sigma camera with the 14mp foveon sensor in it? its the same sensor the SD14 has in it.

Has anyone actually seen more than the mock-up presented last year?



I betcha betcha betcha the super zooms evolve into cameras that use todays SLR sensors.


I'll take that bet. With a larger sensor, they lose one key advantage over SLRs -- more apparent telephoto range with a much smaller lens.

[Riley]

The DP1 is a 28mm F4 lens, it might hit the streets after PMA
its genuinely more like the fabled DMD than a superzoom
I really dont get the F4 bit, maybe it has good iso performance, could use a hotshoe and an OVF too
Like it or not, I think it has what it takes to be a landmark camera when it finally appears.

[mattdm]

High ISO performance is a weakness of existing Foveon sensors. It's possible they've improved it in this one, but between that and the relatively slow lens, I think it's mostly an outdoor camera. It'll be awesome in its niche, though.

[Riley]

its a curious design spec isnt it
although maybe follows on Ricoh's GR somewhat

[pict]

Currently own a sony 707 (5mp 5X optical zoom). Was "state of the art" when I bought it. But now...
I've been looking to upgrade for a long time and spent many, many hours researching that upgrade. I just feel the SLRs have too many negatives at this point.
When somebody makes a p+s with the larger sensor and at least a 5X lens and image stabilization - I'll buy it.
Still waiting.

[Riley]

the Sony R1 is/was for you
have you checked it out ?

[mattdm]

Pict -- I'm pretty sure sensor size is going to remain smallish for P&S cameras. This allows cheaper and smaller lenses. (And look at how much of a success the Sony R1 wasn't.)

But, you could have what you want _now_. Get the Pentax K100D, stick on a moderately priced lens that meets your needs, and never take it off. Presto, P&S camera with a larger sensor, image stabilization, and at least a 5x zoom.

[Riley]

thats very true Matt
theres alway been just one little niggle though
rumors about a four thirds EVIL persist, thats electronic viewfinder interchangeable lens

at least on paper, would seem to be cheaper to put together than a dSLR
E-400/410 demonstrates it can be a small format, without a mirrorbox even smaller
so with a price bracketed below D40, and better quality than P&S, the perfect intermediate ?