Tough situation

[JMWallace]

Ok...i've gotten myself into a REALLY good one!

Heres the situation. The guy that I did the Sushi food shoot for has asked me to do something for him...and PAY me.

A cousin of his that he pretty much grew up with is getting married. The gift he would like to give her is an album with some pictures from the wedding and DVD of video shot at the wedding.

He has asked me to shoot the pictures and friend of mine to do the video. It is almost 3 hours away, but he is basically paying us $1,800 ($900 each) plus paying for the hotel room. Neither of us are anywhere near "Pro", but I think I am getting the better end of the deal.

Here is the issue.

The bride has her OWN photographer hired. I was hoping that the guy they hired shot traditional like the guys up here do. That way, there would be a definitive difference between photographers. Well, I got the info on this photographer today. Let me tell you...this is NOT GOING TO BE THE CASE!!! Oh TRUST me, there WILL be difference. The difference between what MY shots look like next to CW's.

HOLY CRAP, look at this guys work! www.jimsandersphoto.com (http://www.jimsandersphoto.com)

I mean, this will be an incredible chance to learn...but, but, but....

I will be giving him a call to talk to him about what is going on. I just don't feel it would be fair to just show up and surpise him. The only other thing I am worried about is that he won't be very receptive and it will throw a wrench in things. OR, am I worried he WILL be receptive.

anyway, HOLY CRAP...

[forno]

Damn, that is a tough bind.

Toes are in danger of being trodden on with 2 paid photographers doing the same event. Is your stuff supposed to be a suprise or do the B&G know your are doing it?

[cdifoto]

Contact that Jim Sanders guy and ask him how he wants things to proceed. If it's supposed to be a surprise to the B&G, make sure he knows not to let the cat out of the bag. Chances are he'll work with you instead of against you. Who knows...it might lead somewhere. :D

I'd consider it a blessing!

[JMWallace]

Damn, that is a tough bind.

Toes are in danger of being trodden on with 2 paid photographers doing the same event. Is your stuff supposed to be a suprise or do the B&G know your are doing it?

Well, it will be interesting...thats for sure! Like I have said before, around here, WP are very traditional. So, me being the wingman and snapping "unstaged candids" (I would no where near consider it PJ) adds a little something to the package for the B&G. But in this case, he is DEFINATELY a very well accomplished PJ WP...I have no idea what my horribly inexperienced "unstaged candids" can offer.

No, it's not a surprise - partially because we need to in the dinner count.

Contact that Jim Sanders guy and ask him how he wants things to proceed....Chances are he'll work with you instead of against you. Who knows...it might lead somewhere. :D

I'd consider it a blessing!

That would SWEET to have a mentor of that caliber even if he is a little distance away. I really hope he is an easy going guy. I'm with ya' - what a blessing this could be! As far as I have seen, in my area, there is no one doing this style. Where else would I get the opportunity learn like this?? Australia? Massachusetts??

[jamison55]

I know Sushi Guy is a client but I'd turn him down out of professional courtesy to the pro that the bride hired.

JM, you sell yourself short, you have the skills to turn out professional photos. Problem is, your professional photos in an album as a gift could potentially cut into Jim's sales. Jim's business model might include post wedding sales of prints and albums. Even with the best of intentions, you might be unwittingly cutting into his profit margin.

If you were an invited guest, he would have to deal. But you would be there in the capacity of another hired pro. Jim may actually have a clause in his contract that allows him to leave the wedding if another pro is present (many photogs do), which could really ruin the bride's day.

I'm sure that sushi guy could buy a really nice album for his family member from the hired photog for the $1800 he's paying the two of you...

[cdifoto]

I know Sushi Guy is a client but I'd turn him down out of professional courtesy to the pro that the bride hired.

JM, you sell yourself short, you have the skills to turn out professional photos. Problem is, your professional photos in an album as a gift could potentially cut into Jim's sales. Jim's business model might include post wedding sales of prints and albums. Even with the best f intentions, you might be unwittingly cutting into his profit margin.

If you were an invited gues, he would have to deal. But you would be there in the capacity of another hired pro. Jim may actually have a clause in his contract that allows him to leave the wedding if another pro is present (many photogs do), which could really ruin the bride's day.

I'm sure that sushi guy could buy a really nice album for his family member from the hired photog for the $1800 he's paying the two of you...

This is possibly true, but I still say ask rather than assume. At package pricing starting at $4000 I somehow doubt he relies on print/album sales.

[jamison55]

Doesn't matter what he costs, he was the guy hired by the bride, but JM would also be a hired pro. So who gets to stand in the aisle for the processional? They both have an obligation to their clients to get the photos they were paid for. So does JM take a backseat to Jim and stay out of his way? If so, how does he capture the first dance? Or the cake cutting?

If JM were the second shooter hired by Jim than the roles would be clear. He's not. He would be hired to do the same job as Jim (with the same obligation to his client) and that just doesn't work...

ETA - If someone were to email me about a wedding I was hired to cover with JM's story, I would call the bride right away and get things straigtened out. That would kind of ruin the surprise, but it would ensure that I would be able to do my job without constantly having to elbow another hired pro out of the way...

[JMWallace]

Hey Jamie, only being 7 months out of the gate, I am very flattered by your compliment!!!

I know where your coming from! When the Sushi guy asked me to do this, I told him that the WP may have contractual stipulations that could throw a BIG wrench in things. He understood that. That is why I think the conversation has to take place tomorrow! I would at least like to hear what Jim has to say about the idea.

If Jim is good with the setup, I have no problem at all letting him set the terms. If he doesn't want me to give the option to buy, I will have no complaint. It's his show, I'll let him set the boundries!

If he isn't onboard...well, I either won't be going or I'll be giving the video guy a hand.

I agree, there is always the fallback of bringing in the video guy and buying from Jim to put the gift together.

[jamison55]

That would SWEET to have a mentor of that caliber even if he is a little distance away. I really hope he is an easy going guy. I'm with ya' - what a blessing this could be! As far as I have seen, in my area, there is no one doing this style. Where else would I get the opportunity learn like this?? Australia? Massachusetts??

In that case turn down the wedding, then email Jim Sanders and explain what happened. See if he needs a free second shooter for a few '07 weddings...

[cdifoto]

Doesn't matter what he costs, he was the guy hired by the bride, but JM would also be a hired pro. So who gets to stand in the aisle for the processional? They both have an obligation to their clients to get the photos they were paid for. So does JM take a backseat to Jim and stay out of his way? If so, how does he capture the first dance? Or the cake cutting?

If JM were the second shooter hired by Jim than the roles would be clear. He's not. He would be hired to do the same job as Jim (with the same obligation to his client) and that just doesn't work...

ETA - If someone were to email me about a wedding I was hired to cover with JM's story, I would call the bride right away and get things straigtened out. That would kind of ruin the surprise, but it would ensure that I would be able to do my job without constantly having to elbow another hired pro out of the way...

I didn't say he should elbow in. I said he should communicate. Huge difference. They might be able to work something out, they might not. But you don't know if you don't ask.

And it does matter what he costs. Your argument is that he might be relying on part of his income in print sales. His pricing makes me think that he doesn't follow that business model. It's still possible but in my opinion it's not likely. So that reason might be moot. But then it might not. Again, communication.

But then what do I know. You're the pro, I'm not. Maybe real pros don't do the communication thing.

[24Peter]

ETA - If someone were to email me about a wedding I was hired to cover with JM's story, I would call the bride right away and get things straigtened out. That would kind of ruin the surprise, but it would ensure that I would be able to do my job without constantly having to elbow another hired pro out of the way...

Well Jamie, there's always your Glock if things get really tough, right? ;)

[cwphoto]

I'd be pretty uncomfortable with this if I was the hired pro. It's one thing having guests hanging around you doing their own thing - it's quite another having someone else that has been commissioned to do a similar job.

I think your Sushi buddy is a bit out of line even coming up with this idea. You have to remember at the end of the day it's the Bride and Groom's day and no-one elses - pulling a stunt like this could put a real dampener on things.

Sorry buddy, bad news on this one - I would politely decline.

[jamison55]

But then what do I know. You're the pro, I'm not. Maybe real pros don't do the communication thing.

Ouch Don :eek: Little past your bed time?

[cdifoto]

Ouch Don :eek: Little past your bed time?

Nope I'm just saying communicate. I never said it was a good or a bad idea. That's between JMW, Jim, and the couple.

[jamison55]

Well Jamie, there's always your Glock if things get really tough, right? ;)

Who needs a glock with 3.5 pounds of 70-200 IS to swing around...

[JMWallace]

Thanks for all the input so far!!! I really have a lot to sleep on tonight.

As much as I want to stay online all night and follow this, I do have to get to bed...still got the regular job to do in the morning.

I'll check back in when I get to the office tomorrow...then make the call to Jim and give an update.

I do atleast feel that Sushi guy deserves the courtesy of me giving Jim a call and Jim the courtesy of knowing the idea that has been thrown out there and deciding if he is comfortable with it. The wedding is July 14.

[forno]

I think your Sushi buddy is a bit out of line even coming up with this idea. You have to remember at the end of the day it's the Bride and Groom's day and no-one elses - pulling a stunt like this could put a real dampener on things.



Couldnt agree more

[aparmley]

I agree with Jamie and Christian. This sushi guy, perhaps trying to surprise the bride with an album, needs to speak to the hired pro about getting an album ordered after the event without the bride around. I'd forsee the hired WP not going along with this at all.

The 900 going your way Jeff, what does that cover. Are you supposed to pay yourself for working all day, working a few more days on edits, working a few more days on page layouts, find a way to make whats left over to pay for album costs as well - those can get expensive.

[JMWallace]

Well, I made the call. Jim was super cool and a real delight to talk to. Those who responded with a NOT hit the nail on the head.

Basically, he wasn't completely against the idea once I described the limitations I would personally set on the project out of respect for him and the integrity of his business. Things like Sushi guy only getting prints, not the digital orginals, that they would not be posted for the B&G (or anyone else) to order off my site, that the event is his not mine to promote, that it would be MY responsibility to know where he is at at all times so as not to get in the way of his shot. He shouldn't have interupt the creative juices from flowing to think, "alright, where the hell is that Jeff guy at!" I let him know that I wouldn't be over his shoulder, under his arm or between his leggs trying to capture the same moment he is...whats the use of duplicating efforts.

Anyway, what I mean by "not completely" against the idea is that he said if he was a "traditional" photographer I would be more than welcome because his efforts would be concentrated on something totally different. But since what I would be trying to shoot is what he is trying to shoot plus the fact that he brings along 1 sometimes 2 other shooters, he can't risk me getting in the way, missing a shot or the added confusion of another person with a big camera.

He was VERY professional and, although he may have been patronizing me, was interested in work I had already done. He asked if he could see a web site. I said sure expecting him to write down the address and NOT actually look at it later. Instead, he pulled up the site while we were on the phone and looked at things while we talked. He really made me feel good about what I was doing after only a couple of months. We talked for about 45 minutes. At the end of our converstation, I asked if he would welcome a 2nd shooter free of charge sometime if I could get away for a weekend. He said. "absolutley."

So, I either won't be going or will now be a video assistant at a lower pay rate! BUT, better to have built a bridge than to have burnt one!


I agree with Jamie and Christian...I'd forsee the hired WP not going along with this at all.

The 900 going your way Jeff, what does that cover. Are you supposed to pay yourself for working all day, working a few more days on edits, working a few more days on page layouts, find a way to make whats left over to pay for album costs as well - those can get expensive.

The $900 was to basically to cover "time" and buy off my wifes OK. He was also paying for the hotel room. The book would have been at cost since it would be my first run at it. I'm new at this, and he knows it. I'm not really interested in doing a gig on my own for free. I want to get paid at least a little since I would be responsible for all the work. Being second shooter...that I'll do a couple more times for free. Sushi guy knew that, if had hired a photographer & videographer to do is project, it would probably cost a minimum of $5000. And that wouldn't take into consideration of travel expenses. He felt we has getting a good deal and I felt decently compensated. It would be a fun weekend, but it would be away from the family.

[cdifoto]

A little communication goes a long way. At least now you know where he stands on the matter.

[24Peter]

A little communication goes a long way. At least now you know where he stands on the matter.

What?!? Huh?!? :p

[jamison55]

You were SOOOO right, Don :D (that statement has saved me a lot af marital grief).

[cwphoto]

You did well JMW, and now you have that bridge to exploit. Who knows, this could be the start of a good thing. :)

[JMWallace]

...this could be the start of a good thing. :)

I agree. BTW, did you take a look at his work CW? What do you think of it?

[cwphoto]

I agree. BTW, did you take a look at his work CW? What do you think of it?

Yeah, his work is good. Very fresh/contemporary. I like his website too. You yanks sure know how to market effectively. :D

[EOS Man]

Wow, that guy's stuff is pretty impressive. But nevertheless, I'm sure you could do well... all the best:)

[Honest Gaza]

Anyone can arrive in a Limo....but a Wedding in your own private jet ?

Now that's a Wedding.

Must have been in Dallas....where everything is bigger.