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View Full Version : Manual, Av or Tv mode



TassieD
12-17-2006, 07:56 PM
Just a quick question to see what peoples opinions are.

For sports photography would it be best to use Manual mode or one of the creative modes i.e. Av or Tv?

I got to thinking this after my cricket shots yesterday and now think there has to be a better way.

Apologies for the basicness of the question but I have been second guessing myself all day and am now totally confused....lol

zmikers
12-17-2006, 08:04 PM
If it were me, I'd use Tv mode as you will need to make sure your SS is quick enough to stop the action. Set it to the desired SS and go from there. That's my opinion but I'm not a pro or anything.;) :D

pagnamenta
12-17-2006, 08:30 PM
Your shots are great, so whatever settings you are using are obviously working. I shoot a lot of sports, soccer, basketball, football, just a few. I always use M mode because it gives me control over nearly everything. I always have to shoot wide open at f2.8 so M really helps.

The think I don't like about Av is that if I set a low f stop, say 2.8, the shutter speed is always too fast. If I use Tv mode, and set the shutter speed at what I need to freeze the frame, the aperature never opens up enough, so my shots are again too dark.

Nickcanada
12-17-2006, 08:40 PM
I shoot Av and adjust the exp compensation if need be. I find it too much to think about in M. If the sun moves and I'm not paying attention or if I move or the action moves to the shade, it would be very easy to underexpose.

I've been checking my histogram and highlight warning alot lately, it's made a huge difference for me. I've been reading about exposing to the right too, very intresting stuff.

TassieD
12-18-2006, 12:59 AM
Thanks for the input guys, I will be back at the ground on Thursday and Friday. This time no coloured pajamas and white ball, they will be in whites and using a red ball.

cwphoto
12-18-2006, 04:45 AM
If the light is consistent then I shoot M mode for everything. I'm old-school; incident light meter and all.

aparmley
12-18-2006, 06:14 AM
The think I don't like about Av is that if I set a low f stop, say 2.8, the shutter speed is always too fast.

??? Meaning, that instead of freezing the action you wanted to blur it with a slower shutter speed. . .well in AV just stop the lens down and there ya go! Basically, you're saying that your shooting in a bright setting wide open, ofcourse your SSs are going to be fast.



If I use Tv mode, and set the shutter speed at what I need to freeze the frame, the aperature never opens up enough, so my shots are again too dark.

??? Which is telling you that your lens is too slow or you need to increase ISO, or simply, your venue is to dimly lit.

How does shooting manual change the available light?

Did I read something wrong?

cdifoto
12-18-2006, 06:40 AM
??? Meaning, that instead of freezing the action you wanted to blur it with a slower shutter speed. . .well in AV just stop the lens down and there ya go! Basically, you're saying that your shooting in a bright setting wide open, ofcourse your SSs are going to be fast.



??? Which is telling you that your lens is too slow or you need to increase ISO, or simply, your venue is to dimly lit.

How does shooting manual change the available light?

Did I read something wrong?

This raised my eyebrow as well. Av, Tv, and M are three ways of arriving at the same conclusion: Proper exposure. Whether you select f/2.8 and get 1/1000th automatically via Av, choose 1/1000th and get f/2.8 automatically via Tv, or choose f/2.8 and 1/1000th yourself you're still getting the same settings....

Although I've never heard of a shutter speed being too fast. Unless you're shooting motorsport and need the wheels spinning (or something similar), there's really no such thing as a SS that's too fast. Cricket, football (both kinds), basketball, etc all benefit from as fast a shutter speed as you can get.

If you're underexposed in Tv but you're already using the slowest shutter speed that'll let you freeze what you need to freeze, like Andy said, your ISO is obviously too low or you're screwed anyway.

M doesn't change the requirements for proper exposure.

pagnamenta
12-18-2006, 08:47 AM
When I shoot in M, I get exactly what I want. The exposure is perfect and I get the proper depth of field or shutter speed. When I shoot in Av or Tv, the results are never as good when I'm in M. I've used the exposure comp. but it still doesn't work. Perhaps it's the camera's fault, I don't know.

cdifoto
12-18-2006, 08:59 AM
When I shoot in M, I get exactly what I want. The exposure is perfect and I get the proper depth of field or shutter speed. When I shoot in Av or Tv, the results are never as good when I'm in M. I've used the exposure comp. but it still doesn't work. Perhaps it's the camera's fault, I don't know.

Proper use of EC will yield the same as M. When you use M are you always playing match-the-needles? If so, you might as well play in Av without EC at all because it's the exact same thing, only faster. If you do override the middle in M, all you have to do is EC so that the needle goes the same place as you would have put it when in M. Try a controlled scene for yourself...try M, try Av.

You also have to remember that EC isn't something you can set and forget. You guesstimate your scene and adjust accordingly if you think the camera's meter might be fooled, the same as you don't set M and forget it. You adjust with each scene.

michaelb
12-18-2006, 10:33 AM
Proper use of EC will yield the same as M. When you use M are you always playing match-the-needles? If so, you might as well play in Av without EC at all because it's the exact same thing, only faster. If you do override the middle in M, all you have to do is EC so that the needle goes the same place as you would have put it when in M. Try a controlled scene for yourself...try M, try Av.

You also have to remember that EC isn't something you can set and forget. You guesstimate your scene and adjust accordingly if you think the camera's meter might be fooled, the same as you don't set M and forget it. You adjust with each scene.

I agree with this. I often adjust the exposure compensation and shoot in Av mode. I usually prefer my outdoor shots slightly underexposed as compared with the XT's meter, so I often have the EC set at -1/3. Sometimes I shoot in P mode to see what the camera "suggests" and then change the aperature if I feel the need to; its nice that Canon allows the ability to change aperature and shutter speed while in P mode.

I don't see what advantage shooting in M gives you over setting the EC and then shooting in Av or Tv mode (unless your using a light meter); just seems like more finger work to me. :D

adam75south
12-18-2006, 11:22 AM
if i want to get the fastest possible shutter, then i set it to Av and then open it up...then adjust ISO accordingly. but if there's plenty of light and i don't want too little dof, then i'll go with the Tv and set it to 1/1000s.

i also like to use M if everything is pretty consistent, that way i don't get as many variations.

pagnamenta
12-18-2006, 11:26 AM
Whenever I use Tv or Av I let the camera compute the EC. I always get varied results just like Adam75south said. I like M because it gives me consistant results. I don't see what the big problem is about me not shooting in Tv or Av. I like to set the dept of field and shutter speed and what not.

cdifoto
12-18-2006, 11:40 AM
Whenever I use Tv or Av I let the camera compute the EC. I always get varied results just like Adam75south said. I like M because it gives me consistant results. I don't see what the big problem is about me not shooting in Tv or Av. I like to set the dept of field and shutter speed and what not.

Whatever works for you works but like I said before - shooting in Av or Tv and leaving the EC at neutral the way you say you do isn't going to always give you the proper exposure. That's the same as shooting M and always matching up the needle, never overriding it. You might as well shoot in Green Alien...I mean Green Box mode, since you're still letting the camera make the decisions.

pagnamenta
12-18-2006, 11:56 AM
What ever works best for you

adam75south
12-18-2006, 01:29 PM
i think he/she means they are finding a good setting and then sticking with it???? sometimes that's what i do if i'm in the same exact spot and shooting the same direction. i get quite a few varied shots when letting the camera decide otherwise. at least this way you can make a recipe...or actions with photoshop and apply to all.

that being said, i use Av or Tv about 95% of the time.

Vich
12-18-2006, 01:45 PM
I'm not an experienced sports shooter, but it seems reasonable that basic principles apply;

M has added advantages if the light is consistant.


If you can expose for the players, then it won't matter about the background, particularly if you might be pointed towards the sun on some shots.

The camera reacts faster because it doesn't have to figure out exposure.


On the down side; if you get it wrong then all your shots will be equally messed up. For this; you might consider bracketing. Can you bracket in continuous shutter mode?

Nickcanada
12-18-2006, 02:53 PM
So you guys ajust your exposure as needed? How do you tell if your camera is doing a good job? Histogram? LCD? Laptop? Highlight warning? Tarrot cards? Light Meter? (for the dinosaur:p ) ...Other?

cwphoto
12-18-2006, 03:17 PM
If the lighting is consistent, I use M because it takes away the problem of changeable or non-average subject reflectance - which is surprisingly common for the sort of subjects I shoot:

Weddings: plenty of high/low key subject matter (brides and grooms).
Sports: same as above; some teams have white uniforms (like the last soccer game I shot), some cars are very dark/light etc.

I simply take an ambient reading from my shooting position (assuming it is in the same lighting as the subject matter) and set the exposure accordingly.

The only problem with this method is when you suddenly need to shoot a subject in different lighting - say when you're trying to get a series of shots at a corner and then a crash happens on another corner under different lighting, or when the lighting is constantly changing (eg; clouds coming/going). Other than that, M is the way to go for me.

cwphoto
12-18-2006, 03:19 PM
So you guys ajust your exposure as needed? How do you tell if your camera is doing a good job? Histogram? LCD? Laptop? Highlight warning? Tarrot cards? Light Meter? (for the dinosaur:p ) ...Other?

Experience.

There was no such thing as histograms, LCDs, laptops, and highlight warnings with film.

Surpisingly, I still got some good good shots back then. You reckon weddings are daunting, with digital it's a walk in the park. With film you were always shooting 'blind' - but that's why they pay us the big bucks. :p ;)

aparmley
12-18-2006, 07:01 PM
Pagmagenta - No reason to get alarmed. . . I think what Don and I were trying to say is that the same thought that goes into shooting M can easily be applied to Av or Tv mode. It doesn't matter what you shoot as long as it works for you. But, you went farther than saying it works for you, you said, shooting Tv results in your lens not be able to open up wide enough, thats not the fault of Tv, thats the fault of poor lighting or your judgement, you aren't always going to be able to use 1/500. No offense intended by our remarks, I'm sure, we were just stating that the same logic you use to shoot in M and get the exposures you want, should easily be applied to Av and Tv to get the exact same exposures. What threw us was your comments regarding your inability to get exposures you think are accurate using Av or Tv. Sorry for the confusion and/or upsetting you, we might have misunderstood your comments. You're right to each his own. . . thanks!

pagnamenta
12-18-2006, 07:13 PM
What I'm saying is that if I'm shooting a football game and set the camera to Tv and set a shutter speed of 1/250th (this is a night game with poor lighting) the camera wants to use a aperature of f4 when my lens can go all the way to f2.8. The images come out too dark. I've tried letting the camera do the exposure and I've also set it to overexpose. I don't know why the camera does this, so I have to shoot in M.

cdifoto
12-18-2006, 07:31 PM
What I'm saying is that if I'm shooting a football game and set the camera to Tv and set a shutter speed of 1/250th (this is a night game with poor lighting) the camera wants to use a aperature of f4 when my lens can go all the way to f2.8. The images come out too dark. I've tried letting the camera do the exposure and I've also set it to overexpose. I don't know why the camera does this, so I have to shoot in M.

Even with EC +1 it still underexposes? I can see how it would want to underexpose with EC at 0 - the stadium lights would throw off the metering. But EC +1 should fix that and let it go to f/2.8....

Honest Gaza
12-18-2006, 08:14 PM
Even with EC +1 it still underexposes? I can see how it would want to underexpose with EC at 0 - the stadium lights would throw off the metering. But EC +1 should fix that and let it go to f/2.8....

CDI....can you please explain this in greater depth ?

zmikers
12-18-2006, 08:20 PM
I think this is quite amusing. Everybody is basically arguing the same thing. It doesn't really matter what mode you use, the equations will still be the same. What you feel comfortable using is the mode you should use. 1/250 SS at F/4 will be the same whether you are in Av, Tv or M mode. The mode selection doesn't change the light, unless your camera is God!!!!!!! LOL;)

pagnamenta
12-18-2006, 08:31 PM
Stadium lighting and indoor gym lighting is always really poor. I'm always shooting at ISO 1600. Thank god I have a Canon, the images are still pretty clean noise wise.

cwphoto
12-18-2006, 08:32 PM
Stadium lighting and indoor gym lighting is always really poor. I'm always shooting at ISO 1600. Thank god I have a Canon, the images are still pretty clean noise wise.

For most of the soccer shoots I did recently I was getting 1/1,000s @ f/2.8, ISO 1,600.

That was at a fairly well lit stadium (as you would expect for a national fixture) and the images were pretty clean.

BonjiB
12-18-2006, 08:48 PM
The mode selection doesn't change the light, unless your camera is God!!!!!!! LOL;)

My flash is God.

cdifoto
12-18-2006, 08:50 PM
CDI....can you please explain this in greater depth ?

It's more of a problem when using Evaluative metering, but if you're in Av or Tv, the camera will try to make the overall scene "correct", and the bright lights coming into the lens will throw the meter off and the camera will think it's too bright. There is a lot of light falloff and uneven lighting within most stadiums (especially non-pro ones) and this fooling of the meter underexposes the players. It's one of those times spot metering comes in handy since you can meter for the players' uniforms.

pagnamenta
12-18-2006, 08:54 PM
Well, I shoot high school sports and you're right, non-pro lighting sucks. I can't get above 1/320th with ISO 1600 in M. Maybe if I try Tv and overexpose I can get it up a bit higher, say 1/500th. Definately always use spot metering for all my sports shots.

cwphoto
12-18-2006, 08:57 PM
Well, I shoot high school sports and you're right, non-pro lighting sucks. I can't get above 1/320th with ISO 1600 in M. Maybe if I try Tv and overexpose I can get it up a bit higher, say 1/500th. Definately always use spot metering for all my sports shots.

That last bit alarms me and may be why you are having some exposure issues. The EV resulting from using spot metering can vary wildly depending on what exactly the spot is pointed at during metering, I would try a different technique for next time and compare results.

cdifoto
12-18-2006, 08:59 PM
Well, I shoot high school sports and you're right, non-pro lighting sucks. I can't get above 1/320th with ISO 1600 in M. Maybe if I try Tv and overexpose I can get it up a bit higher, say 1/500th. Definately always use spot metering for all my sports shots.

Overexposure with EC in TV mode won't move your shutter speed. You set that yourself. What it will do though is open your aperture a stop more than it would without EC adjust from 0.

cdifoto
12-18-2006, 09:02 PM
That last bit alarms me and may be why you are having some exposure issues. The EV resulting from using spot metering can vary wildly depending on what exactly the spot is pointed at during metering, I would try a different technique for next time and compare results.

This is true and why I also shoot in M anytime the light is consistent. In the stadiums with uneven lighting, I make some readings at various points of the field and try to remember those settings, and adjust manually when they're on that part of the field. If the differences are only about a third of a stop or so, I'll just go for the happy medium and "tweak" my exposure when I get home.

cwphoto
12-18-2006, 09:05 PM
This is true and why I also shoot in M anytime the light is consistent. In the stadiums with uneven lighting, I make some readings at various points of the field and try to remember those settings, and adjust manually when they're on that part of the field. If the differences are only about a third of a stop or so, I'll just go for the happy medium and "tweak" my exposure when I get home.

Don, the frequency of our similar techniques and viewpoints is starting to really worry me! :eek: :D

forno
12-18-2006, 09:12 PM
So both you guys have light meters?

cwphoto
12-18-2006, 09:17 PM
This is true and why I also shoot in M anytime the light is consistent. In the stadiums with uneven lighting, I make some readings at various points of the field and try to remember those settings, and adjust manually when they're on that part of the field. If the differences are only about a third of a stop or so, I'll just go for the happy medium and "tweak" my exposure when I get home.

I need to elaborate. The Spot mode can be very useful in combination with M. That way you have none of the erratic behaviour that Spot mode brings to the table when using the camera in one of the AE modes.

I used the spot meter for some of the night soccer game recently, but in M mode.

I simply took some reflected spot readings from around the ground (metering off an approx mid-tone; like grass) to see how evenly illuminated (or not) the ground was and as a re-assurance that a reading from my trusty incident meter was valid from my shooting position.

forno
12-18-2006, 09:26 PM
Which brings me to

How much of the VF does the center mode on the 350D use to meter, as in can you zoom right in on a particular point and then use that as you baseline?

Honest Gaza
12-18-2006, 09:26 PM
It's more of a problem when using Evaluative metering, but if you're in Av or Tv, the camera will try to make the overall scene "correct", and the bright lights coming into the lens will throw the meter off and the camera will think it's too bright. There is a lot of light falloff and uneven lighting within most stadiums (especially non-pro ones) and this fooling of the meter underexposes the players. It's one of those times spot metering comes in handy since you can meter for the players' uniforms.

OK....thanks :)