Which system is suitable for me? Open to suggestions.

[jaris]

Hi guys,

First post. I've been browsing through this forum for a while. Great people here!! It maybe a long post, please be patient with me...;)

I'm looking to buy my first DSLR. I will also take a class and learn from one of my friends who's experienced in photography. However, I'm very tempted to buy the equipments in the next few months before my travel to Europe. Here's my background and hopefully that can help you guys to help me with my questions.

1. It will be my first DSLR. Completely newbie. Currently have a Sony M1 5MP point and shoot camera which we don't use too often.

2. My wife and I will be traveling frequently to many European countries in the next couple years. We want to take advantage of this great opportunity and take many nice pictures for memories. I will be mainly taking scenary shots, architectures, and of course my family. Mostly outdoor, with some indoor shots (like family gathering, newborn in the house, etc). I'm not looking to use it professionally.

3. I don't think we will print out anything larger than 8x10.

4. I pretty much have to buy everything to start this hobby (expensive one indeed...) :) I read a lot about Canon 30D, XTi, 80D here and the lens as well. I'm leaning towards the 30D because of the current rebates and it should be a very good camera for my level of use I assume. Do you guys have any other recommendation for my situation? After some research here, I'm leaning a little towards Canon. I also have no experience in post editing. I have to learn that as well. :)

5. Can you guys suggest the types of lenses I should get at this stage? I'm not looking to spend that much money on L-series lens from Canon ($1000+ each). But a few hundreds dollars is fine with me. I read from here that investing on good lenses is better than investing on camera body. What type/brand/model should I get for my type of shooting. I don't want to carry 3 or 4 lenses all the time.

6. Should I be concerned with no IS on the camera based on my experience?

7. After your suggestion on the body and lenses, I will continue to do my research here for batteries, memory cards, bags, etc. Any tips or advice in terms of accessories?

8. I don't want to spend top top dollars on the best best equipments "yet" but I also don't have a tight budget. I'd consider anything "reasonable" or "worth the price".

Your comments/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance.

[ReF]

although saying that the budget isn't tight helps a little, it's still open to interpretation. you could easily rack up $4000-5000+ in suggestions for a good starting setup (just ask richNY ;) ). so it would likely be a great benefit to you if an upper limit budget was stated. also keep in mind that accessories like a bag, decent tripod and head, + spare battery, polarizer, and cf cards can add up to $urprising amounts pretty quickly so make room for that in the budget.

[ktixx]

Canon 30D - $1,170.00 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=423708&is=REG&addedTroughType=search)
Canon 17-55 f/2.8 IS - $1,040 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=425812&is=USA&addedTroughType=search)
Canon 10-22 f/3.5 - 4.5 - $690 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=351542&is=USA&addedTroughType=search)
Canon 70-200 f/4 L - $585.00 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=183198&is=USA&addedTroughType=search)

Sandisk 2GB Ultra II CF Card - $60 (After $20 rebate) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=311828&is=REG&addedTroughType=search)

Canon Rebates:
Canon 30D - $200
Canon EF-S 10-22 - $30
Canon 70-200 f/4 L - $70
Total - $300

Total Price after Rebate: $3,245

Here are some other things I would consider:
1) Scrap the 30D body and get the Canon Rebel XTi - $800.00 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=457506&is=REG&addedTroughType=search)- this will save you about $400
2) Don't get the 10-22, but if you do that you are going to have to find another canon product on the rebate list or you won't get double rebates (The 17-55 is not part of the rebate program).
3) Keep the 10-22 and scrap the 17-55 for the Canon 24-70 f/2.8 - $1,150 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=264304&is=USA&addedTroughType=search) Buying this would add $100 to the rebate making the total package the same price, but you would have a higher quality piece of glass..(but of course..no IS)
4) Get the 10-22 (above) the 70-200 (above) and add on the 50mm f/1.4 - $314.00 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=12140&is=USA&addedTroughType=search) to fill the gap in between (This product is included in the rebate - $40 off)
5) Just get the 30D body and the 17-55 f/2.8 IS lens and worry about the rest later...

Ken

[Rhys]

How about something really compact? For travel I'd be looking at the smallest most compact cameras possible. I'd also be bearing in mind whether I wanted to run them from AA batteries.

The Pentax K100D has a built-in image stabiliser, runs of AA batteries and is fairly compact. The bonus - it'll use any Pentax lens ever made.

The Olympus dSLRs are pretty decent. The lenses are compact and the bodies are fairly compact. They use proprietry batteries however.

Norm in Fujino has an Olympus dSLR and Jeisner has a Pentax K100D as far as I know.

[unix04]

you can get the xti with the tamron 18-200 + 50mm 1.8 as the ultimate convenience set. it wont give you the best quality you can get, but it will give you most of what you need in terms of focal range and low-light shots.

another lens option could be the sigma 17-70 and the 70-300 APO. both lenses will cost about 550 combined, but it will offer a higher level of image quality at a very affordable price.

if you absolutely must go the 30D route, i'd suggest the sigma 17-70+70-300 combo and the 50mm 1.4 or 85mm 1.8 to round up the double rebate. (not getting the double rebate and just taking $100 off is not a bad option though. you shouldnt buy a lens you dont want or will not use often)

[jaris]

Thanks, everyone. I think I'm leaning towards 30D at this point. I went to a store and hold the cameras (without turning them on) to get a feel. I don't like the feel of XTi. I like D80, but 30D has a slightly better feel. I guess it's due to the magnesium body? They don't have the Pentax there. The 8mp vs. 10mp is not a concern for me. I think I'll be happy with either D80 or 30D.

Let's say if I get the 30D, how about buying the Canon EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM as an all-around lens? I may just stick with this lens until I become more experienced and actually know what I am doing. What do you guys think? I'll seriously consider all the lenses that you guys suggested. But I have some credits from Costco and I'm thinking about applying the credits towards this purchase. And this is one of the Canon lenses they carry. But if it is not a good one, then I'll go with some of your suggestions.

Thank you.

[unix04]

the 30D + 17-85 IS kit is many steps up from the 18-55 kit lens, and also qualifies you for the double rebate. i think it's fine, and should suffice for most settings. you might lack a little bit in low-light, so if you want low-light shots, i'd still suggest picking up the 50mm 1.8 prime (it'll cost you only $80 US more).

there are a lot of people with qualms against the 17-85 though. image quality not worth the $500 price tag, but you'll have to judge for yourself. here's a link to a lens test between the sigma 17-70 and the 17-85 IS:

http://www.pbase.com/lightrules/17701785

[jaris]

great. maybe I should also get the Canon 70-300mm IS lens from Costco as well. I saw that they have it. With 3 lenses (Sigma 17-70, 50mm 1.8 prime and 70-300mm), I think I'm all set for a long while. However, which lenses will I probably use more often based on my situation? I think having the 70-300mm IS is just a bonus/luxury? 17-70 and 50mm 1.8 prime should be a well around setup for me, right?

I am very excited and can't wait to order them...but part of the fun is the research process...:D

[michaelb]

great. maybe I should also get the Canon 70-300mm IS lens from Costco as well. I saw that they have it. With 3 lenses (Sigma 17-70, 50mm 1.8 prime and 70-300mm), I think I'm all set for a long while. However, which lenses will I probably use more often based on my situation? I think having the 70-300mm IS is just a bonus/luxury? 17-70 and 50mm 1.8 prime should be a well around setup for me, right?

I am very excited and can't wait to order them...but part of the fun is the research process...:D


In my opinion, this would be a really nice, budget friendly set-up. Personally I love to shoot landscapes / scenery and if you will be travelling Europe I bet you will to. (My wife and I took a month long driving trip of Europe last year.)

The 50mm 1.8 is cheap, but a great lens. It lets you get the most artistic control out of your dSLR due to the f/1.8; you can really control depth of field. Without a lens like this, you might as well get a good point and shoot camera, like a Canon S3 IS. The 50 1.8 isn't the best focusing camera, but the image quality is excellent.

The wide angle zoom you choose (17-70, etc) is the lens you will likely find yourself using the most, so choose wisely.
I would suggest either the Sigma 17-70 or the Tamron 17-50 f/2.8. If you want a nice Canon the 17-40L f/4 is a really nice lens, but with a limited focal range.

If you want a telephoto lens, the Canon 70-300 IS is hard to beat for the price. Just make sure you get one of the newer ones without the "vertical orientation" issue.

[unix04]

if you're on a budget, i'd hold off on the 70~300 IS. the setup you mention (30D + sigma + 50 + 70-300 IS) already breaks $2K. add onto that compact flash cards, preferably a bag to carry all of it around and a lens hood and you can add another $100.

if you want an alternative to the 50mm f1.8 and would like more range beyond the 70mm that sigma gives you, you can get just a tad bit more in the 85mm f1.8 prime. the 85mm is an excellent lens, and will enable the double rebate for your 30D. this setup will keep you around $1500. (alternative to the 17-70 sigma, there's also the tamron 17-50 or the sigma 18-50, which are faster and cost about as much).

and the extra money you pocket can buy you some nice meals and other luxuries while in europe!

[DonSchap]

You might want to take a peek at the SONY system. Its 10MP sensor and built-in anti-Quake feature makes it quite useful for a heldheld novice.

16523

It will save you a lot of cash in IS-equipped lensing, that's for sure. It gives Image Stability to every lens, by default. That's a pretty nifty option. It's kind of like having a virtual tripod built right in.

SHAKE, SHAKE, SHAKE... nope, not this camera. :cool:

[krzkrzkrz]

Don Shap has a strong point there.

Sony A100 is quite good and will save you the big buckaroos ($$$) when investing in lenses because of the in-built image stabilisation feature.

However, I was just in the shops yesterday. Once again tried the Sony A100 and it did feel a bit too "plastic". I didnt really like the build quality, but I have to admit that the grip on this camera was better than the smaller grips on the Canon 350D and Canon 400D. Never-the-less, I own a Canon 400D and have no issues with the grip. Its just a myth :) So I've learned through experience :D

Furthermore, I've read the reviews comparing the Canon 400D, Nikon D80, and Canon 30D. All are very good DSLR's. The reviews seem to mention that the Sony A100 lacks in image quality (particularly in noise levels). BUT HEY the image is good enough! In fact, the level of detail is only obvious if you zoom right into the image to notice any difference.

It also comes down to lens selection. Canon and Nikon are market leaders in this sector, but since Sony's acquisition of Konica Minolta, you may still have a large variety of lens option.

Just my 2 cents / honest opinion. :)

[jaris]

Guys, thanks again for the helpful advice. I was out of town for a few days.

I agree with the plastic feel of the Sony A100, similar to Canon Xti. I'll probably stick with the Canon 30D. I just feel great holding it. :) That's the first impression I have and to me, it's important.

Since Canon is a market leader, I believe they will always come out with great products in the future, like lenses, camera bodies, etc. I can invest money on the lenses that are designed for Canon now. And "when" Canon introduces new camera body with Anti-Shake and other new features, I will probably upgrade mine. For now, I'll "probably" stick with the setup that we discussed earlier. However, I'll spend another week and do more research on each individual lenses that you guys suggested here. Again, it's part of the fun. In terms of budget, $3K is fine.

[cwphoto]

I'll probably stick with the Canon 30D. I just feel great holding it. :) That's the first impression I have and to me, it's important.

Now that makes perfect sense - if it feels good your half-way there.

Well maybe not half-way, but I hear very little debate about how important the user experience is to the photographic process - and it's very important in my book.

[Vich]

Nice choice, 30D. One thing about Costco (not sure about their online), they have an unreal return policy.

I believe you can expect the 30D to be replaced with a 10MP version soon. Just a guess. I'd guess it'll have the Digic III processor, albiet the Digic III improvements seem to be more consumer oriented.

For $3K, my choice would be:

30D ($1049) ($100 rebate)
EF-S 17-55 f2.8 IS ($1039)
EF-S 50 f1.4 ($314) ($20 rebate)
EF 70-300 IS ($550)?

$240 in rebates.

I'd get the 50 f1.4 version because of the double rebates. If you have $3K to spend, you'll find the f1.8 lens frustrating. It's very capable, but misses it's AF point a lot. The extra $140 in rebates makes it not much more.

Note: I find the 35mm length far more useful on my 30D (I have 35L) but it's commonly $900+ used. So the 50mm should do for when you need really low-light (like in a museum). Either that or spring for the L version - maybe even get the 28mm.

Then get 2 or 3 2GB cards, an extra battery, bag, etc. You'll slide in for just about $3K.

Reason for EF-S 17-55 f2.8 IS? IS will save so many shots and eliminate any real need for monopod, f2.8 allows DOF creativity, 17mm gives you something reasonably wide.
I'd recommend the Tamrac bag system with accessory lens holder. You can carry your whole rig in a low profile over-shoulder bag, always ready to access.

Oooooor, about 10 other combos would give you similar.

Also; a lot of people here have the 12-22 and love it. That might come in handier than the telephotos if you're doing architecture.

[jaris]

cwphoto, I agree. Getting into this hobby is for my enjoyment. Image quality is very important. But if I don't enjoy holding the camera in the first place, I don't think I will enjoy much while taking pictures with it. I will feel something's wrong. I went to a Best Buy this afternoon and confirmed my feel. well...I'm subjective before I even went in there...:D

Vich, thanks for the advice. I think I will consider 12-22 later on. I'm new to DSLR and I will spend a lot of time learning and trying to take good pictures with my current (soon) setup. I love the reach from 70-300 IS. That's one of the many reasons (my wife said "excuses") I want a DSLR. :) But I'm still not quite sure about switching to 50 f/1.4 from 50 f/1.8. Being a newbie, I don't know how much a difference will 1.4 make. I will spend some time to research on this topic here.

I also like the Costco generous return policy. Haven't abused or used it myself. I may go that route even though it's a little more expensive than other places. It gives me a sense of security knowing that if something's not working, I can always bring it back there like an extended warranty. :) Hopefully, I don't have to go through that process though...

[RichNY]

Having been thru the decision you're now facing last week (and then again this week when I started second guessing my choices), I'd offer you the following suggestions:

30D $1139-$200 rebate (BH price)
17-55IS $999 (BH price when you have them match Beach Photo's Price)
70-300 $560
580EX flash $369-$30 rebate
With two 2GB CF cards, an extra battery and a case you'll be right at $3000.
- I think the flash will come in more handy than the 50mm prime.

I went this route except with a 85 f/1.8 instead of the 70-300. That rig got me right thru the weekend until Monday when I bought the 70-200 f/2.8 and 10-22.

Make your life easier and download the 30D printer manual and print it out in 8.5 x 11 format. There is a lot to learn but fortunately you can still be taking some nice pictures during the learning curve and you'll be sure to like the 17-55IS.

[jaris]

I didn't think about the 580EX flash earlier. I may need to add that to my shopping list. So do you guys recommend getting the 580EX first or the 50 f/1.8 first? I guess I may end up with both together...:D

Fortunately, one of my friends will let me borrow his 17-85 IS while I'm picking up this new hobby. Then I can decide whether to get the 17-55 later this year. So at this point, I will get the 30D, 70-300 IS, 2 2GB CF, bag, extra battery, card reader, etc. I'm still doing research on getting 50 f/1.4 or 50 f/1.8 or 85 f/1.8 and the 580EX. I also need to buy a software for post editing (already saw some recommendation on this forum).

[cwphoto]

Don't dismiss the 430EX - a good unit for a good price.:)

[wh0128]

As someone already mentioned about shooting in museums, the 50mm 1.4 prime lens would work wonders in museum lighting where they don't allow flash (sometimes). To me I would rather have the prime lens than the flash for this reason. You asked jaris what would be the difference in the 1.8 and 1.4? well the 1.4 would allow you to let in twice as much light giving you the capability to play with the shutterspeed and allow it to be faster, especially if you have to bump up the ISO in low lighting. The 1.8 lets in half as much light so your shutterspeed will be 2x slower than the 1.4 to compensate for the amount of light hitting the sensor in your camera.

Did you say how long you will be in Europe? For suggestions, since you probably won't be shooting in RAW format, I'd shoot images at Fine, Medium which would give you a ton of images to record if you were going to be shooting with 2 2gb CF cards, and even more with an extra card. My D50 6.1mp at Fine Medium on a 1gb SD card can hold well over 300 photos, so for you to have 2-3 2gb CF cards would be well over a thousand photos which is good especially if this trip might be once in a life time. Hope you get what you want and that you take excellent photos. Be sure to stop back here from Europe and show us what you did with your new equipment and tell if you gained any experience.

[DonSchap]

I did some comparing, last night with the amount of light a 580EX throws out compared to a 420EX.

At six feet... 580EX.... f/16
" ................420EX.... f/11

A full f-stop less for the 420EX. Food for thought.

[cwphoto]

I did some comparing, last night with the amount of light a 580EX throws out compared to a 420EX.

At six feet... 580EX.... f/16
" ................420EX.... f/11

A full f-stop less for the 420EX. Food for thought.

Simple maths says there was always gonna be around a stop difference Don, just divide 42 into 58...

[DonSchap]

I was just pointing out some basic differences between the two.

Thanks

BTW, Christian... I got me a ST-E2 Speedlight Transmitter, tonight.

16743

I'm going to try and use the remote flash capability of the 580EX and 420EX as offset slaves, with umbrellas. It's slightly cheaper and smaller than getting another 580EX.

I also considered brand new "Interfit" (http://www.interfitphotographic.com/) Stellar twin 300W (http://www.interfitphotographic.com/Lighitng/Pop%20up%20pages/Stellar%20300%20pop%20up.htm) flash heads, complete with 2 medium stands, 2 power cords, 1 silver umbrella, 1 translucent umbrella, 2 sync cords, instructions and all-in-one carry case (OMG! :eek:) for just under $600. The lamps are 5600K +/- 100K and recharge every 1.5 seconds. That one sounds like a decent deal.

16744

[RichNY]

Fortunately, one of my friends will let me borrow his 17-85 IS while I'm picking up this new hobby. Then I can decide whether to get the 17-55 later this year. So at this point, I will get the 30D, 70-300 IS...

If you've got full time access to a 17-85IS for a while thats great. If you don't I'd recommend going with the kit lens for only $80 more than the body only. It will be $80 well spent to get the focal ranges you will be missing with only a 70-300IS. Even if you replace it later, consider it like a rental in the interim.

[wh0128]

Hey Don, how good is that light kit? Cuz that seems like a really good price for all that equipment. I might even have to look into that one, cuz me and my friend might start doing portraits.

[jaris]

wh0128, we are planning to relocate there for a couple years. So we get to travel to many European countries during weekends and holidays.

Let's say I shoot pictures in a museum with low light condition and I use the 50 f/1.8. They will be "still" pictures, like paintings, etc. Do I need 2x light like f/1.4? Will f/1.8 be sufficient for that kind of pictures?

[Vich]

wh0128, we are planning to relocate there for a couple years. So we get to travel to many European countries during weekends and holidays.

Let's say I shoot pictures in a museum with low light condition and I use the 50 f/1.8. They will be "still" pictures, like paintings, etc. Do I need 2x light like f/1.4? Will f/1.8 be sufficient for that kind of pictures?
Think High ISO too.

No matter what, you'll probably be maxing your ISO. There's a huge difference between ISO 800 and ISO 1600 IQ wise.

Imagine that you achieve your minimal shutter speed (say 1/40th), the best you know you can hand-hold. If you had an aperture double the size, you could use ISO 800 instead! Or; if you have one of the newer cameras, maybe use ISO 1000 and get 1/60th (a more acceptable SS).

If you can rig some sort of monopod, let's say use an extra long cane and mount a rubber stopper on it.

Also; if you are shooting anything but a straight-on, f1.4 may have too shallow DOF to achieve focus from side to side. It'll depend upon how far away you are of course.

So; f1.4 may not be completly necessary, but opens your options much more. Also; a more consistant AF may give better results too.
f1.4 on a 50mm in museum lighting will still re

[DonSchap]

The Interfit lighting is a great price... but, I have since decided to use my 580EX and 420EX as source strobes, rather than pop for the kit with even more strobes! I got the ST-E2 (http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r289/donschap/camera%20stuff/ste2_586x225.jpg), last night... and it just seemed to be a cheaper overall solution. I can still buy the Interfit heads when I want to put more into it. It was a coin-toss, of sorts... I really just want to get my money's woprth out of the portable strobes. I figured I paid enough for them, already, why not put them to work? Also, I backpack them, so they are always with me. I do not see myself doing that with the Interfit solution... just a bit too much to tote that way.

I went over to Calumet Photographic (http://www.calumetphoto.com/ctl?ac.ui.pn=search.Search&query=mf6060k) (they are having a sale of sorts), this afternoon and just before they closed, and picked up:

(stock numbers are hot linked)

three heavy duty stands (MF6060K (http://www.calumetphoto.com/ctl?ac.ui.pn=search.Search&query=mf6060k)), four extendable boom arms with "chip clips" (MF6860 (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/MF6860.html)), a case (p/o MF6060K), the 42" ZipDisc translucent with gold/silver/black/white cover (RM4040K (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/RM4040K.html)) the interconnecting hardware (studio clamp, swivel umbrella adapter and Stroboframe adapter for the flash) (MF6820 (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/MF6820.html) & MF6830 (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/MF6830.html) & SO7613 (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SO7613.html))

16767
This is kind of the basic idea... with another arm like the one holding zip disk, to hold either the 580EX or 420EX flash either behind of the translucent disk to provide a diffused wide spread of light or in front of the solid colored reflector, to reflect back sharper lighting.

The particular stands I chose (13.5') are definitiely more robust than the lightweight ones (8.5') that come with the Interfit system and you can also add casters to the larger stands. They're wider and weigh a little more, so you don't need to sand bag them to keep them from tipping (the ultimate portrait-taker's nightmare). Let's just say... plenty of growth potential with these.

This weekend, I plan on assembling the whole she-bang and popping of a few shots and a couple rolls of Fuji Velvia. I will snap a few pics of the lighting ayout, to give you and idea of what is involved in this simple "portable" studio idea.

Also, I'll try and get the entire thing weighed, over at the post office. LOL :D

[jaris]

just an update: I bought the 50mm f/1.4 instead. :D very nice and it totally changes the picture quality for the indoor shots...

[RichNY]

just an update: I bought the 50mm f/1.4 instead. :D very nice and it totally changes the picture quality for the indoor shots...

Congradulations- looks like you've got yourself a great lens. If you are like me you'd have been kicking yourself if you bought the 1.8 instead. I didn't realize you had purchased your camera yet- what gear did you end up going with?

[jaris]

RichNY, thanks. As of today, I have a Canon 30D, 50 f/1.4, 70-300 IS, 17-85 IS (borrowed from my friend), Slingshot 200 bag (I like the functionality but not much about the look), one 2GB CF card. I am thinking getting some UV filters and an extra batteries later on. I "try" to slow down on my purchase for the flash...maybe until December.

[RichNY]

RichNY, thanks. As of today, I have a Canon 30D, 50 f/1.4, 70-300 IS, 17-85 IS (borrowed from my friend), Slingshot 200 bag (I like the functionality but not much about the look), one 2GB CF card. I am thinking getting some UV filters and an extra batteries later on. I "try" to slow down on my purchase for the flash...maybe until December.

I agree that the Slingshot isn't going to win you any fashion awards (I own one also) but it is confortable transporting your gear, and a nice bag to work out of without having to take it off and put it on the ground like a backpack.

When you do get a flash it will fit nicely in the upper 'cone' section of the Slingshot, and you've got room enough for another lens or two in that bag. (Unless you get a 70-200 f/2.8 in which case you'll have to pack the camera body without any lenses attached.)