A Different Look at the G7

[Rex914]

I think that the subject of the G7 being disappointing has been beaten into the ground enough and that for a G series camera, this leaves a bit to be desired. However, let's think of it differently and not dismiss this camera quite yet.

If you don't want to read through my whole post, take this one line away: The G7 would more aptly be called the S90; it's really an S series camera in disguise because it packs power into a small package.

G7 vs. A710 IS

A lot of people are comparing this camera to the A710 IS and derisively calling it an A710 IS with a hot shoe. Let's say for a moment that we were just comparing the two on specs alone, ignoring the G series name. The A710 IS costs $400 while the G7 costs $600, a $200 difference.
What does the extra $200 get you? Apparently, quite a bit if you really think about it.

http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/psg7/img/iso-dial.jpg

- DIGIC III (better overall performance)
- Hot Shoe
- Better sensor (10 MP 1/1.8" type CCD vs. 7 MP 1/2.5" type CCD)
- Up to ISO 1600 (vs. ISO 800)
- Bigger (but not faster) lens with special coatings
- Far superior handling - dedicated ISO dial, rear dial (vs. 4 way controller)
- Bigger viewfinder with diopter adjustment
- Much better exterior styling
- Better build quality (less plasticky), rubber edges and grip, high quality dials pulled from the Rebel XT.
- Superior Screen (207k pixels vs. 110k)
- Much stronger Built-In Flash
- Minor Things: faster max shutter speed, slightly faster burst rate, superior movie mode

While I completely agree that this might pale in comparison to previous G series cameras, this is a fair $200 upgrade in my opinion. Usually, $100 extra only gets you a megapixel upgrade. $200 gets you upgrades across the board. Think of it this way. $100 buys you 7MP->10MP and DIGIC III. The other $100 buys you the slick body, better handling and the other things.

What's in a name?

Maybe it's all in the name. If Canon called this the A800, would people have complained as much? Could it have been better? Certainly, but if we compare specs to specs, the G7 isn't as bad as it seems. I think that people, myself included, were quick to dismiss the camera, and I will be the first to admit that my gut reaction was a bit hasty and unwarranted and that the people who were calling it a flop even before it's up for sale is silly. This isn't a half bad camera if you treat it as a completely different beast from the G6. About the only aspect that it shares with the G series is the premium designation.

S series in disguise?

If anything, I almost see this as the next incarnation of the S series, with a long, IS zoom rather than a wide angle zoom. People who desire lots of power in a small package that fits in your pocket (i.e. those who bought an S80) will find a lot to like here. It compares pretty well with the other two cameras of this kind which are the Panasonic LX2 and the Samsung NV7. All three are pretty small yet fully featured. This is where the G7 really fits in the big picture, at least for me.

[XaiLo]

G6 - G7 somewhere in there is an implication of superiority. I can see the argument having gone through it with the S2 vs S3. the only thing is Canon did not yank raw or anything else out in the upgrade, at least for me this is the primary issue.

[BowerR64]

To me it just seems like the camera took a step backwards.

To me raw is a step up, hot shoe is a step up. the swivel LCD is one of the best ideas on a digital camera IMO.

Im not ready for SLR but this camera i thought would fill that space. In the past it was one of the higher end before SLR.

[Rex914]

In my post, I'm comparing the G7 to its closest cousin, the A710, not the G6. While it might be a step down from the G6, that's not my point.

I'm isolating the camera from its predecessors and evaluating it on its own, and in that respect, it's not bad at all. It's not a serious prosumer camera like the previous G series camera but rather, a powerful, pocketable camera like the S series.

Compromises were made by Canon in downsizing it. That's part of the reason why I think the LCD in particular got cut out. The G7 is actually smaller than the A630/A640 believe it or not. Did Canon shift its priorities by downsizing it? Maybe that's the case. I'm just trying to offer a different view from all the bashing I've seen today though your comments are valid.

So to sum it up, the prosumers probably don't like it, but I can imagine that the people who bought the S70 and S80 might like this camera a lot.

[Koosla]

Your post makes quite a bit from sense; however, in a way, it doesn't resolve the main question, it merely shuffles it: instead of being "Why did Canon make such a downgraded G-line camera?", it becomes "Why did Canon use the 'G' name for an 'A' specs grade camera?".

I don't have a problem with an A800 camera without RAW, swivel LCD and fast lens. But I still have a problem with a G-line camera without those features.

[bluppy2]

Rex914: I think you are completely right... I've no experience at all with previous G-series models and I really think this camera is worth the extra money (if it does what it promises). It's important to judge the camera on it's own qualities instead of his name.
I really see it as an alternative for a much more expensive DSLR because of it's size and price (with a little luck it just fits into a pocket..). I just hope the ISO performance is not too bad.

[BowerR64]

Ide rather have the G6

[peppy5]

with the G7 out, can't wait to see what the s4 is going to have as this technology is filtered down.

[JTL]

S4 with digic III...I'm there...

But with the mascaraing of the G6...what will they lose from the S3? I think the G7 proves all bets are off.

Canon marketing Dept: "Those people don't need a swivel LCD they want a swivel LCD, let 'em buy an A640...why should we give people image stabilization and a swivel LCD...let's make 'em choose. And let's slow that lens down too...they want a fast lens...let 'em buy a Rebel..."

It might be S3 RIP too...

[JTL]

Ide rather have the G6If you want one, buy one fast...the few that are left will disappear very quickly...

[JTL]

Rex914: I think you are completely right... I've no experience at all with previous G-series models and I really think this camera is worth the extra money (if it does what it promises). It's important to judge the camera on it's own qualities instead of his name.
I really see it as an alternative for a much more expensive DSLR because of it's size and price (with a little luck it just fits into a pocket..). I just hope the ISO performance is not too bad.Without RAW it sadly is not. It USE TO BE a viable DSLR alternative, but that is no more...

[JTL]

While I completely agree that this might pale in comparison to previous G series cameras, this is a fair $200 upgrade in my opinion. Usually, $100 extra only gets you a megapixel upgrade. $200 gets you upgrades across the board. Think of it this way. $100 buys you 7MP->10MP and DIGIC III. The other $100 buys you the slick body, better handling and the other thingsAn upgrade that gives people what they couldn't care less about (10MP) and takes away things that make the camera a class leader (fast lens, swivel LCD, RAW) is no upgrade. It's bait-and-switch.

Rex, let's face it. The G6 is (was) a legendary camera. A photographer's camera. Do you see the G7 as legendary?

I see it as a mish-mash of flung-together features more driven by spreadsheets than photographers.

Maybe it wil attract some "new" buyers. But, alot of current Canon customers are disappointed and peeved. Maybe dead cameras should be left that way...instead of coming back as Frankencameras...(or other film reference choices: 28 Cameras Later; Night of the Living Cameras; The Evil Camera, etc. :D ).

[TenD]

I have to agree with JTL on this. The G series has lost it's identity with this release. I think it will sell a lot of copies, but it's definitely more of an A series or S series camera now. I replaced my G2 with an S2, and miss the G2 in some ways. I was excited when I saw the announcement, but dissappointed when I saw the specs.

[JTL]

I have to agree with JTL on this. The G series has lost it's identity with this release. I think it will sell a lot of copies, but it's definitely more of an A series or S series camera now. I replaced my G2 with an S2, and miss the G2 in some ways. I was excited when I saw the announcement, but dissappointed when I saw the specs.Hey. We agree on something else...I think Wyoming is one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen...

[TenD]

I am priveledged to live there. Now, only if I could spend more time there, I spend about half my year on the road, in Alaska...But Alaska isn't to shabby either.

[XaiLo]

If you want one, buy one fast...the few that are left will disappear very quickly...

going going gone. :eek:

[BowerR64]

This camera should end the G series, Specialy if it sells for what they think it will.

[Rex914]

An upgrade that gives people what they couldn't care less about (10MP) and takes away things that make the camera a class leader (fast lens, swivel LCD, RAW) is no upgrade. It's bait-and-switch.
As I said above, it is no G series camera nor is it legendary by any means. I see far more similarities with the S80 than I do with the G6. Now, if you did not like the the S80, then my argument is a moot point. :)

So rather than being a mid-size prosumer camera that could stand in as a DSLR, this camera just competes with the other high end compacts like the LX2 and NV7 rather than the few prosumers that are left like the R1 and P880.

Perhaps the next Pro series camera, if that ever comes, will be what we prosumers really wanted.

[BowerR64]

Some one said if we wanted SLR features to just get an SLR. But why build a camera that use to fill the gap between P&S and SLR and strip it of all the features that use to fill that gap.

I think the older G series was just ahead of its time and we just wernt ready for it yet.

The S80 reminds me to much of pocket film cameras, the ones that used 110 film or somthing. Im sure it was a great camera though.

[pianoplayer88key]

It's not a G-series if the lens doesn't open up to at least F/2.0 at wide angle...

[JTL]

As I said above, it is no G series camera nor is it legendary by any means. I see far more similarities with the S80 than I do with the G6. Now, if you did not like the the S80, then my argument is a moot point. :)

So rather than being a mid-size prosumer camera that could stand in as a DSLR, this camera just competes with the other high end compacts like the LX2 and NV7 rather than the few prosumers that are left like the R1 and P880.

Perhaps the next Pro series camera, if that ever comes, will be what we prosumers really wanted.Maybe the whole concept of a "prosumer" camera is dead. Which is a shame...because there are some people who simply don't want to deal with all of the expense (and for some, hassle) of a DSLR. Hey...I own a G6 an S3 and an XT. The XT actually spends the most time in the bag collecting dust. And, I'm not alone on this...

But, the "cash-cow" potential of a DSLR is just too tempting for the manufacturers to ignore...so I guess it's only natural that they want to push primarily prosumer "fringe" shooters like me over the edge...it's just that I've been over the edge already and have landed on some rocks! :D

And, give me the S70 over the S80 any day of the week...:) ;)

[BowerR64]

So far the 710 is, is the only camera that i want from canon this quarter.

[fun with pictures]

I currently own an A620 and was looking for the next step up. I have been eyeing this G7 for the past couple of days until I started reading this site. I liked the aspherical lens and the coating (both essential I hear for true fidelity) as well as the 6X zoom and 10 MP. I first thought I'd get the A640 until I really started looking. I'd love to hear anyone's recommendations either stepping up from the A620 or alternatives to the G7. I do like the swivel LCD and I am a little bummed to see no RAW format.

Thanks

[dotbalm]

Maybe dead cameras should be left that way...instead of coming back as Frankencameras...(or other film reference choices: 28 Cameras Later; Night of the Living Cameras; The Evil Camera, etc. :D ).

Return of Camula; Dawn of the Cameras; 2001 A Camera Odyssey. Okay, I'm not great at the whole dead and back theme, but I couldn't toss these to the scrap heap (nor 20,000 Cameras Under the Sea).

PS: Dear Canon: amateur photographer seeks compact with full manual, raw+jpg, pop-up flash, fast lens, 10x optical, clean high ISO sensor and a big burst buffer to match. 5-7 MP will do - focus on sensor quality not # of MP. CF and AA okay, but will understand if not. 3X okay if ultracompact, but if flash is built-in, must maintain long distance relationship with lens - make it red-eye "resistant." Weather resistance also a plus. Non-smoking.

It's Friday here, have a great weekend.

[BowerR64]

We arnt asking for this toatly unrealistic camera and those backing it think we are. I just think they should of atleast carried over what was already on the G6 with what ever else they have improved wether its the digic 3 processer, better sensor or more mp but they robbed it of all its best qualities.

What a let down :(

[albino]

i'm with "fun with pictures",



have been eyeing this G7 for the past couple of days until I started reading this site. I liked the aspherical lens and the coating (both essential I hear for true fidelity) as well as the 6X zoom and 10 MP.

i'm have also put my eyes to the fuji f30.


i want to replace my beloved p&s cameras:

- leica minilux
- contax t3

i beleve it could be time to go digital for the normal purposes, aside to my contax rts3 for dia :)


i compared (if possible) the reviews of the fuji f30 with other cameras with 10mp and watched to the new pics of the canon a710-is:

witch things, do you beleve, will be better at the g7 than the f30 ?

what will be less good? (batteries and?)

i have to buy a digi bevor november 20!

will any of these cameras make as great quality pictures as my minilux and contax t3 do? (please be honest!)

[ben7337]

We arnt asking for this toatly unrealistic camera and those backing it think we are. I just think they should of atleast carried over what was already on the G6 with what ever else they have improved wether its the digic 3 processer, better sensor or more mp but they robbed it of all its best qualities.

What a let down :(

I agree. now I have no clue what camera to get. the G7 is way overpriced and missing everything that I liked in the G6. So I am curious. should I go get a G6 while I can? will the current miage quality of the G6 ever be available in another digital camera that is the same size or smaller (including lens since it would probably be a mini DSLR) I am just curious because if I can buy like an A620 or A630 right now and save money knowing in 3-10 yrs there will be a good Digital camera as good as the G6 on the market then maybe I should just save money. However if this is not possible then the G6 is the logical choice right? any good alternatives? any cameras that can make photos like these? that are smaller than the G6?

http://www.photocamel.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12523.0;id=6397;im age

http://fmphoto.smugmug.com/photos/87974713-L.jpg

[JimL]

Rex914: I think you are completely right... I've no experience at all with previous G-series models and I really think this camera is worth the extra money (if it does what it promises). It's important to judge the camera on it's own qualities instead of his name.You don't judge a Lexus by pretending it's just a Toyota. If you pay for a Lexus and it's called a Lexus, you expect the automobile to really BE a Lexus. This is a Toyota with a Lexus tag.

Jim

[BowerR64]

I love what you do for me, toy yoda

http://static.flickr.com/15/21367317_d111d6be74_m.jpg

[bluppy2]

You don't judge a Lexus by pretending it's just a Toyota. If you pay for a Lexus and it's called a Lexus, you expect the automobile to really BE a Lexus. This is a Toyota with a Lexus tag.

Jim

If the camera does not live up to his price tag, you are right. But if this camera offers superb handling with (for example) good (F30 like) ISO performance, it can really be worth the extra money.

To use your car metaphor: If this car is still a Lexus but has much better cornering and handling, and his engine is more powerful then all other Lexus, would you still not buy it because it hasn't the gimmicks and gadgets of other Lexus cars? It's just a new type of Lexus... :)

True, this camera is likely to disappoint if you look at the past, but maybe it's better to wait with the judgment until someone with enough camera knowledge had some first hand experience with the camera. :)

[flippedgazelle]

You don't judge a Lexus by pretending it's just a Toyota. If you pay for a Lexus and it's called a Lexus, you expect the automobile to really BE a Lexus. This is a Toyota with a Lexus tag.

Jim

But there have been Lexuses (Lexi?) that are "merely" gussied-up Toyotas - in fact, that's what the Lexus brand was built on. There was a time when the Camry was nearly as good as an entry-level Mercedes, so Toyota realized they could tweak the ride, add luxury touches and sell the "Camry" as a Lexus. And this worked because because the basic vehicle - the Camry - was good enough.

[BowerR64]

Its gona have to outperform itself to sell me one with what its missing.

Who do you think the target user is with the G7? If its a prosumer camera wouldnt you think the above average user would go for this camera? one who knows whats missing.

[truflip]

there are more general users gettin into digital photography than the above average enthusiast who could use RAW, flip LCD, faster lens and all that..

i think Canon is marketing on these general users so they cut down some key features on the G7 to reduce production costs.. and be able to sell to the general user..

i mean.. look at this way.. 3895734865 point and shooters x $600
versus
535665 enthusiasts x $800

where do you think they'd get more money from? which did you think they'd choose over? they decided to neglect US and focused more on those who dont know much about a camera and just want a reliable somethin somethin to shoot with.. n i think thats what the G7 is.. i mean... show it to someone who dont know much about digicam and explain the features.. what they hear is worth $600 to them.. but if you were to explain to same features to me, you or other enthusiasts, its definitely a different story.. i think and i hope this made sense....

[Rex914]

But there have been Lexuses (Lexi?) that are "merely" gussied-up Toyotas - in fact, that's what the Lexus brand was built on. There was a time when the Camry was nearly as good as an entry-level Mercedes, so Toyota realized they could tweak the ride, add luxury touches and sell the "Camry" as a Lexus. And this worked because because the basic vehicle - the Camry - was good enough.

As a sidenote, there is only one Lexus which is a dressed up Toyota, and it's the ES350, a souped up Camry. All the others are original creations as far as I know, including the IS series which was designed and made from scratch. The other arguable one is the GX which used to be Toyota Land Cruiser but was selling for $60k already (and was luxurious), so they decided to rebrand it and drop the Toyota name.

[BowerR64]

there are more general users gettin into digital photography than the above average enthusiast who could use RAW, flip LCD, faster lens and all that..

i think Canon is marketing on these general users so they cut down some key features on the G7 to reduce production costs.. and be able to sell to the general user..

i mean.. look at this way.. 3895734865 point and shooters x $600
versus
535665 enthusiasts x $800

where do you think they'd get more money from? which did you think they'd choose over? they decided to neglect US and focused more on those who dont know much about a camera and just want a reliable somethin somethin to shoot with.. n i think thats what the G7 is.. i mean... show it to someone who dont know much about digicam and explain the features.. what they hear is worth $600 to them.. but if you were to explain to same features to me, you or other enthusiasts, its definitely a different story.. i think and i hope this made sense....


So you dont think the G7 falls into the prosumer catagory? with a hotshoe and a dial for ISO speeds? Every other P&S camera canon has out is designed for the new user in photography.

SD small pocket P&S maximum portability cares more about portability and MP then anything else.
A series small package with some upgrade options new user/medium advanced
S series max zoom medium/advanced user
G series (up to the G6) medium advanced user not ready for SLR or lacking the funds of SLR (me) wants to try Raw but not ready for all the stuff that goes with SLR including CF memory and battery packs :rolleyes:

The G use to be like the S series with less zoom. It had all the things i wish the S2 and S3 had like the hotshoe, faster lens and the RAW. Now i think the S3 is the better camera to get before SLR.

Im just glad they didnt rob all the stuff from the S3 that the S2 had.

[truflip]

as far as I understand, prosumer means professional/producer and consumer..
what percentage of the 'prosumers' are producers? and what % are general consumers like those who literally rip out cameras and press shutter buttons?

i dont think the term prosumer would really fit in canon's terms.. because as far as i know, Canon only seems to know pros and cons, no prosumers..

[BowerR64]

as far as I understand, prosumer means professional/producer and consumer..
what percentage of the 'prosumers' are producers? and what % are general consumers like those who literally rip out cameras and press shutter buttons?

i dont think the term prosumer would really fit in canon's terms.. because as far as i know, Canon only seems to know pros and cons, no prosumers..

"The second usage describes a purchaser of technical equipment who wants to obtain goods of a better quality than consumer items, but can’t afford professional items (older terms for goods of this intermediate quality are semi-professional and industrial quality). Here, the word is a blend of professional and consumer. Prosumers of this sort are famed for their enthusiasm for new products and their tolerance of flaws and, from the marketing point of view, have much in common with early adopters. This usage is common among those selling video equipment, digital cameras, and similar goods (and the examples below illustrate this sense). Some manufacturers treat the SOHO (Small Office, Home Office) market as being much the same thing"

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/BowerR64/Junk/Prosumer.jpg

[truflip]

I guess I have a different look at the G7.. oh well, just be happy with what you have and dont but the G7 then ;) pretend it never existed :p

[BowerR64]

I guess I have a different look at the G7.. oh well, just be happy with what you have and dont but the G7 then ;) pretend it never existed :p

Thats gona be hard because i wanted a G6 :(

[JimL]

To use your car metaphor: If this car is still a Lexus but has much better cornering and handling, and his engine is more powerful then all other Lexus, would you still not buy it because it hasn't the gimmicks and gadgets of other Lexus cars? It's just a new type of Lexus... :)

True, this camera is likely to disappoint if you look at the past, but maybe it's better to wait with the judgment until someone with enough camera knowledge had some first hand experience with the camera. :)Unfortunately (for me), the G7 lacks what have been the G series nicest features...fast lens, swivel screen, RAW, etc. You're right about one thing: it's a new kind of "Lexus" alright...a GS300 for an LS430 price. This camera just doesn't make the cut (not even close) as a G series.

...just my take.

Jim

[flippedgazelle]

As a sidenote, there is only one Lexus which is a dressed up Toyota, and it's the ES350, a souped up Camry. All the others are original creations as far as I know, including the IS series which was designed and made from scratch. The other arguable one is the GX which used to be Toyota Land Cruiser but was selling for $60k already (and was luxurious), so they decided to rebrand it and drop the Toyota name.

The initial IS series were also Toyotas - just Toyotas that were not sold in North America.

I guess my point is that I think most folks will be ready to judge the G7 on its own merits, not its heritage. Of course, if enough professionals and serious amateurs generate a buzz that the G7 is really a bastard child of the G-series and the A-series, there may be a large enough cloud of negativity hovering over the G7 to seriously impact its sales success.

I have never used a G-series camera. I currently have an A620 that has helped me get somewhat enthusiastic about digital photography, and I am probably in the target demographic for the G7. I am not concerned with the lineage of the camera, I am concerned with its merits relative to the competition. But if someone more knowledgable than me points out everything that this particular camera is "missing", then I likely would not buy it - even if, in reality, the camera can satisfy my needs. This will probably be the most common scenario for consumers who actually research before they purchase, and hence does not bode well for Canon.