NAS - It can happen to you!

[timmciglobal]

NAS is a serious disease and it can happen to you.

What is NAS?

Nikon aquisition syndrome.

When does it strike? When you used a friends D200 for a day because some complete idiot took his batteries out to charge them and went over a friends house to take some pictures with camera, flash, 2 lenses and no batteries.

What are the signs?

You will experience an annoyance when you realize canon should of done this.
You will keep repeating the phrase "Wow, that's so cool"
You find yourself saying "no way, really?"
You are no longer attracted to your canon as you once were.

Result: You order a D200.

Yeap, I did it.

Why? Tim you've got a 70-200 F4L, a 24-70 F2.8L a 10-22, a 430EX a 20D your nuts...

Let me tell you, the more and better glass I've gotten I've had one tired object at the point of fustration, the 20D. Sure it's nice but it lacks many of the features of a 1 series I've so lusted for. The 30D was going to be my answer but in the end it turned out to be a more minor upgrade then had been anticipated.

Some know I owned a D50, and I liked my D50. I found it's quality to be relativly high and features like auto ISO to be simply amazing for focusing on picture taking and not on settings.

So what did I do with some of my canon gear? Sold some of it, the 20D, the lenses went fast.

Will I still be around posting? If you let me on this forum, I've used the canons and probably will use XT (as friend has one and he's always over bothering me) for quite some time more.

Just don't become like me, don't pickup a D200... the viewfinder, the settings, the fact it's designed completly amazingly.... don't do it, NAS will get you too.

Tim

[cwphoto]

Good grief that's just crazy!:eek:

The D200 looks like a great camera. Not for me as (against the grain I know) I can't stand Nikon's ergonomics, but I'm keen to find out more about how it operates day to day.

Commisser... I mean: congratulations!:p

[cwphoto]

You and Rhys can be camera buddies, yeah!

[cdifoto]

The grass is always greener...

[timmciglobal]

It truly is though in nikon land right now.

The D200 is what 30D should of been. It's the pro features mostly stuck in consumer body. The menu options and controls on 30D are purposly build to be lacking so you buy a 1 series, the D200 I think is nikon admitting that if you won't spend 5 grand you won't spend 5 grand period.

I think its more to due with nikon desperation then competition. You have to improve your product to gain market.

4 banks of custom menus, mirror lockup on dial, auto 0.5 sec shutter delay mode, 5 AF modes, two AF schemes for sensors, .94X 95% view prism, weather seals...

Tim

[ReF]

so very very glad to see you're not a senseless abrand name freak (hardcore canonite or nikonian or whatever).

The D200 is what 30D should of been.

i know many people are completely happy with their 30d's but i was hoping the same. the xt was only supposed to hold me over til the 20d replacement came out, but i still have the xt...

one question that's been bugging me for the longest time: how does the nikon lenses without AFS (there are many) compare to the canon USM that you're used to, tim?

[timmciglobal]

Lenses without the silent wave motor?

Well on my D50 it was clearly slower but the silent wave motor lenses were just as fast as the USM lenses.

Tim

I actually picked up a tamron 28-75 F2.8 for now rofl until I decide what I want :p I want to buy a 80-400 VR.

[aparmley]

The D200 appears to be one fine tool! Its sexy too - very sexy. You'll have to link over to the Nikon boards when you start posting samples!

Good luck on your journey. ;)

[Rhys]

I love the Nikon ergonomics. I always have.

The only thing that I dislike about Nikon and it's no biggie is the backwards bayonet mount. That takes some getting used to.

[timmciglobal]

Just to point out a few things so far I've got to say canon needs to ripoff EXACTLY as it's done in nikon

1) Shooting bank menus. EVERYTHING thats customizable on the nikon (and litteraly everything is) is able to be stored in one of 4 shooting bank menus. You click over to a menu (a/b/c/d which you can rename to whatever you want) and you've got all the settings changed to what you set. This is simply godly.

2) Function button customization! There is a little button where the DOF preview button is on 20D which is customizable to whatever you want. For the D200 I have it set to spot metering. Think of this, in ONE button press with your pinkie you can check exposure RIGHT where your center AF point is (for example a face) and then stop pressing it and you've got matrix back up. GODLY. You can instantly know "oh look matrix is giving me 1/320th @ F8 but my spot is asking for 1/160 @ F4 maybe I need to adjust that"

3) Auto ISO. and "Recent Settings" tab in menu. Don't want to be bothered with watching your shutter speeds? Don't. Auto ISO @ 1/60th sec and the iso will boost in 1/3 stops until it gets you 1/60th OR display "low" so you know it can't.

4) On camera "switches" for every important thing and ISO in viewfinder all the time!

5) (this one is HUGE) delayed shutter mode. You enable it and the shutter won't fire till 0.4 sec AFTER the mirror has gone up. Why is this godly? Mirror slap. Simple as that, you enable it and your mirror slap is almost removed. No double press on the shutter in mirror lock up (which is avalible YES as a button, no menu option to need to play with)

So far it's incredible. I'm telling you, if the D200's noise performance was up to the 30D I think canon would be in DEEP trouble. That's the ONLY thing so far that seems inferior. (in relation to canon, not in relation to actual use, the ISO performance is quite good so far, ISO 1600 well exposed shots seem nice)

P.S. MY GOD is 10.2 megapixels big. You don't get much of a resolution advantage but you do see it on the screen when your used to zooming in in PS you scroll wheel, stoped quite a few times at 80'ish and forgot I got to go in a bit further to get 100%.

Tim

[Jason25]

Wow, that's quite a case of NAS! Congrats on your D200!

I guess I need to do more reading about them, as I didn't realize it has some of the features you listed (which are a big deal for me). I guess I didn't read up on it yet because of the price :D I'm sure I'll get one later on, though. I'll just enjoy my D50 for now ;)

I really want an 80-400 as well, though I'm not sure which one (Nikkor or Sigma).

[Gopher]

That's a real nice set of features. Seeing you jump makes one wonder and think about our own reasoning. A few immediate thoughts.

Is the Nikon Flash Sync still at 1/500th too?

The 5D (or even 30D) ISO performance is a tough one to pass up but it's somewhat software repairable.

Canon lens lineup also hard to beat. Does the Nikon IS system have a panning mode and does it correct as well as the Canon's (3 stops), as well as sense tripod mode?

Well, congradulations on making your mind up. It does sound like Nikon's doing something in their R&D area to warrant notice.

[Bluedog]

I handled one that Nikonian had while we both were trying to capture the same shot in Yosemite. Nice camera yea but as someone else said I didn't care for the ergonomics of the D200 as compared to my 30D.

Canon rules above ISO 800 ... :p

[Jason25]

That's a real nice set of features. Seeing you jump makes one wonder and think about our own reasoning. A few immediate thoughts.

Is the Nikon Flash Sync still at 1/500th too?

The 5D (or even 30D) ISO performance is a tough one to pass up but it's somewhat software repairable.

Canon lens lineup also hard to beat. Does the Nikon IS system have a panning mode and does it correct as well as the Canon's (3 stops), as well as sense tripod mode?

Well, congradulations on making your mind up. It does sound like Nikon's doing something in their R&D area to warrant notice.
The D200 has 1/250 flash sync. The D70s and D50 have 1/500. Oddly enough, even the D2X has 1/250 as well.

VR does have a panning mode, not sure about tripod sensor. EDIT: Nikon states that the 300/2.8 VR has tripod sensing after quick Google.

VR II (like on the 18-200) is said (by Nikon) to correct up to 4 stops, which some have found to be true that I've read. I'm not sure about the previous VR.

[timmciglobal]

Few Q there

X-sync if 1/250th but the SB-800 like canon's support > high speed sync.

The VR2 system is up to 4 stops actually and has an active/passive mode I don't know if it has tripod detection.

As far as ISO, the 20D/30D deffinitly win out > 800. Honestly it's not as much of an issue for me since I don't use ISO 1600 much but it's an issue.

Ergonomics wise only thing I'll have to disagree on, accept for one very poorly placed switch (which is quite poor for how I hold camera) the nikon feels much better in my hands. Simple things like function button, AF-On button make a huge difference.

Tim

[24Peter]

Tim - I'm honestly happy you've found what works for you. I know all those added features are important to you but I just can't help but wonder if you waited a few more weeks to see what SONY's new camera offers for half the price. I'm betting they even made some headway on the noise problem with the D200 sensor. That, along with built in IS, could make it a Canon-killer. But I can't wait to see some shots from your new toy and wish you a lot of success with it. :)

[Rhys]

Nikon's flash synchs have always been different.

The FM had 1/125, the FM2 had 1/250. That's a logical progression.

The F3 - which was their professional model around the time of the FM2 had 1/90th.

[some guy]

congrats. Just stay below ISO400 ya. Otherwise the you'll turn from :) to :( .

You sure switch faster than Rhys! LOL!!! come on, u're lagging behind! :p

IMHO the D200 is supposed to compete against the 5D. And in every review the IQ for the 5D is superior. Just don't let those cocky A100 users tell ya that your camera is the same as their Sony ok!

[timmciglobal]

The sony one from all reviews is built nothing like the Nikon. The nikon has a very nice viewfinder which is a major issue by itself and body based IS doesn't work as well as lens based, 2 stops vs 3/4.

As far as over ISO 400, I shot some 1600 and it didn't look that bad, not worse in well exposed scenes then 1600 really on 20d. The difference seems to be in long exposure which causes a lot more noise in the D200 or in underexposed scenes.

I'll post some sample crops at various ISO's, keep in mind the D200 can do ISO 1250 not 1600 if you need > 800, just like 30D, which is a nice feature since noise is a curve not a direct bump from 400>800.

Tim

[timmciglobal]

One other thing which is actually quite a big deal if you do like shooting people, I'd imagine wedding shots would be huge on this, the shutter is quieter but more importantly significantly less "sharp" sounding. The 20/30D's shutter is "cALANG!" the D200's sounds more traditional to an SLR a "cha-thud"

Oh and yes, I preordered a 18-200 VR :p Why won't canon cave in and make a walk around lens like that!

Tim

[cdifoto]

One other thing which is actually quite a big deal if you do like shooting people, I'd imagine wedding shots would be huge on this, the shutter is quieter but more importantly significantly less "sharp" sounding. The 20/30D's shutter is "cALANG!" the D200's sounds more traditional to an SLR a "cha-thud"

Oh and yes, I preordered a 18-200 VR :p Why won't canon cave in and make a walk around lens like that!

Tim


Congrats on the new camera and enjoyment of it. That's what it's all about in the end...

Don't think I was knocking you earlier Tim. I know if I had Nikon I'd feel the same about Canon...that there's always something better on the other side eventually. Nikon and Canon tend to leapfrog one another for the most part. That's my only reason for saying what I said early on.

Just wanted to clarify that. :)

[timmciglobal]

Oh I didn't think so, and I already miss the "clean" ISO 800/1600 but to counter that, and one major complaint I always had about nikon, was no ISO 100. It's not terrible @ 800 or 1600 but it's not "canon clean." Though I did make a 8x10 ISO 3200 shot earlier and realized that evulating noise @ 100 percent on a 3877X2592 image is a very bad idea since when printed @ 300 DPI it didn't look bad at all, thats before noise reduction.

ISO 100 on the d200 is as perfectly clean as the ISO on 20D, which is a nice

That's it for my D200 ranting though :p

::gets tearey eyed:: I'll miss the canonites! No more red ring!

For sake of explanation on ISO, here are 4 100% crops 800X800 area. Some shadow some non shadow for the D200's high ISO'ability. Notice the shadows have a lot more noise. It's deffinitly a noise ninja type thing

http://pictures.divergentservices.com/d200iso.jpg


Tim

[cdifoto]

That's really not too horrible. I mean it's not Canon Clean, but it's certainly printable. Nailing the exposure is the most important part anyway. Even Canon can be perceived as noise prone if the exposure isn't correct from the start.

[coldrain]

Setting a little point straight, even my 350D has that shutter delay, and so did your 20D.

While I am impressed with a lot of things about the D200, there are also a few things I really do not care for, and therefor would not consider it over a 30D or 5D.

I find the noise it produces horrible. Apparently when measured it is not that bad, but just look at how horrid that noise looks. It is like the heads of your printer are cloughed up, awful.
Related to that probably is how it handles shadowy parts. No smooth transitions, but weird artifact like blotches, especially noticable in skin tones in portraits. My 350D does a lot better there. I think it must be a dynamic range thing... I really am very disappointed in what the D200 does in this area.

And, like cwphoto probably, I do not at all like the Nikon ergonomics. My fingers are quite long, and holding a D200, or D70, or D50, it all feels wrong, forced and uncomfortable. I do prefer the 350D to the 20/30D in this repect too, by the way.

And the menu structure... Nikon has made it very complex.

What I do not really understand is your lens choice. You seemed always to be very critical about your lenses IQ wise. And the 18-200 is not really a stellar lens, just a convenient consumer lens. And the 80-400 VR, while being Nikon's only tele zoom option, does not perform as well as what Canon offers in that area.

So... while I hope you will be happy with your D200 and wish you a lot of joy with it, it is not a camera for me. I fail to be impressed by its performance (where it counts... image quality) and its complex operation.

[cdifoto]

ISO1600 out of the XT (no sharpening, no NR) for comparison. Saved to 9/12 quality to attach. 1/160th f/1.4. Converted in RSP.

[timmciglobal]

As far as the 80-400 not performing up to say the 100>400 L I hadn't heard that. In fact I've heard pretty good things about it, but if it doesn't perform I can always buy a 70-200 VR or 200-400 VR.

As far as the 18-200's image quality, it's not really that bad actually. I may find L lenses fantastic but I also find them limiting in having to swap out constantly. Am I happy with the tamron 28-75 so far? Not really, I'll probably buy the 17-55 DX or the 28-70 F2.8 but we'll see.

Tim

[coldrain]

That Tamron 28-75 peforms better than the 17-55 f2.8 DX, especially in the long end where the Nikkor loses in sharpness and contrast.
The 28-70 f2.8 is a good lens though, like the EF 24-70 f2.8.

[jamison55]

Congrats Tim! While Nikon certainly made a great camera (I am jelous of the viewfinder!), it's probably the camera that made more Nikon wedding photographers change brands than any other (no hard data on this, just based on the number of "jumping ship" threads on the pro wedding forum I frequent). Problem is, us wedding photographers crave light possibly more than any other niche of photography, and the high ISO performance of the otherwise excellent D200 is just not good enough - especially compared to the low noise king: the 5D. Canon coming out with the 5D a few months before the D200 set a standard that was too high (in my industry) for the D200 to reach. We kept seeing too many amazing shots at 3200ISO. About 2 months after the D200 came out there were a lot of "going over to the dark side" threads.

Even on my lowly 30D, I don't hesitate to shoot a whole wedding at 1600, knowing that I probably won't even need a trip through neatimage to make things clean enough to print. My good buddy shoots weddings with a D2X and has nothing but praise for the camera - except when he has to bump up the ISO!

[JTL]

I also find them limiting in having to swap out constantly. Hey, Tim...watch out...not wanting swap lenses is a capital offense around here! Oh, that's right...they're much nicer over there on the Nikon forum so you won't have to worry about things like that! :D

[cdifoto]

Congrats Tim! While Nikon certainly made a great camera (I am jelous of the viewfinder!), it's probably the camera that made more Nikon wedding photographers change brands than any other (no hard data on this, just based on the number of "jumping ship" threads on the pro wedding forum I frequent). Problem is, us wedding photographers crave light possibly more than any other niche of photography, and the high ISO performance of the otherwise excellent D200 is just not good enough - especially compared to the low noise king: the 5D. Canon coming out with the 5D a few months before the D200 set a standard that was too high (in my industry) for the D200 to reach. We kept seeing too many amazing shots at 3200ISO. About 2 months after the D200 came out there were a lot of "going over to the dark side" threads.

Even on my lowly 30D, I don't hesitate to shoot a whole wedding at 1600, knowing that I probably won't even need a trip through neatimage to make things clean enough to print. My good buddy shoots weddings with a D2X and has nothing but praise for the camera - except when he has to bump up the ISO!



I'm actually tickled pink with my XT. I can't even IMAGINE using that 5D....wow.

[aparmley]

After using the 30D at Best Buy I can honestly say that the shutter is quieter than my XT - which I believe to be quieter than the 20D. So without shooting the 5D I would think the 30D is Canons quietest DSLR shutter to-date. Maybe Jamie can shed some light on this as he has all three in his possession currently.

[Vich]

Gee Tim. Dropped in to show this humorous link. (http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1134620)

It would pain me to congradulate you too deeply because I think you traded Manhattan for a chest full of trinkets, but (gulp) congrads on the purchase! Somehow, I think you'll be back some day when you come to your senses but in the meantime, enjoy a wonderful camera!

After using the 30D at Best Buy I can honestly say that the shutter is quieter than my XT - which I believe to be quieter than the 20D. So without shooting the 5D I would think the 30D is Canons quietest DSLR shutter to-date. Maybe Jamie can shed some light on this as he has all three in his possession currently.
Evil! Now I have to go check it out because I was duely impressed with the 5D's silence.

Tim, how much did you get for your 20D?

[Bluedog]

After using the 30D at Best Buy I can honestly say that the shutter is quieter than my XT - which I believe to be quieter than the 20D. So without shooting the 5D I would think the 30D is Canons quietest DSLR shutter to-date. Maybe Jamie can shed some light on this as he has all three in his possession currently.

The shutter on the 20D is by far the loudest of the bunch _ Canon listened and responded the users request in developing the 30D shutter action. Like you say Andy it is indeed quieter than the XT's.

[timmciglobal]

825 for 20D after shipping.

Jamie: I can deffinitly agree with you but for me it came down to the benefits of the system and my continued disapointment with the canon flash system. It really is a mini 1 series, something I hope canon finally makes for the crop factor people (weather sealing, switch based options)

Tim

[coldrain]

In what way did the Canon flash system disappoint you?
And doesn't a mini 1 series need a better sensor to be called a mini one series?;) :p

And have you ever needed weather sealing... I mean, did you ever break a camera because it did not have that? Or not make photos because of it? I do not find making photos in the streaming rain a very nice prospect, weather sealing or not.

[Bluedog]

And have you ever needed weather sealing... I mean, did you ever break a camera because it did not have that? Or not make photos because of it? I do not find making photos in the streaming rain a very nice prospect, weather sealing or not.

I have to agree with coldy on the above _ what the heck are your images gonna turn out like if shooting where water is involved. Personally I ain't getting my gear wet if I can help it.

[jamison55]

Tim: I can definitely see where you are coming from - before ETTL-II, I considered switching to Nikon many times. While I prefer Canon, I can definitely see the Nikon draw - and but for the $300 cheaper price tag of the cheapest DSLR when I bought my first one, I'd probably be a Nikon user today. I wish my 30D would overlay the histogram on top of the full size image, and give me the option to display blinking highlights on a full screen display - heck, even a D70 does that!

As for the shutter sound on the 30D - Parm the muzac must have been pretty loud at the Best Buy, because I can't hear any difference between my 20D and 30D. Neither is a quiet at my 10D used to be. AFAIC, they both sound like firecrackers in an old quiet church!

[aparmley]

As for the shutter sound on the 30D - Parm the muzac must have been pretty loud at the Best Buy, because I can't hear any difference between my 20D and 30D. Neither is a quiet at my 10D used to be. AFAIC, they both sound like firecrackers in an old quiet church!

Really - no difference between the 20D and 30D - No offense or anything - That statement contradicts every opinoin I've ever read about the shutter sound. :confused:

They had the XT + kit lens right next to the 30D at best buy.

I'm not saying your wrong but - could all these other people be wrong? Does something like shutter sound vary from camera to camera? You have me seriously doubting the validity of a lot of remarks.

Blue had the XT and now the 30D and he states his 30D is quieter than the XT - And isn't it true that the 20D is notorious for a loud "Clack!" especially compared to the XT or 10D [as you stated]??

:cool:

Wait a tick - are you drinking this afternoon?

LOL

No doubt anything in a nice quiet church sounds a little too loud.

[timmciglobal]

Consistence of exposure using E-ttl2. I think it's generally accepted that nikons flash is far better, pretty much always has been. E-ttl2 is a huge jump but it isn't as consistent as Nikon's.

As far as weather sealing, I've been VERY VERY carefull so obviously it's never happened BUT at a similar price point (300$ isn't much) I'd rather know that a light rain when I'm just carrying camera + lens (obviously a gasketed lens) won't risk damage versus worrying about it.

Tim

[Bluedog]

As for the shutter sound on the 30D - Parm the muzac must have been pretty loud at the Best Buy, because I can't hear any difference between my 20D and 30D. Neither is a quiet at my 10D used to be. AFAIC, they both sound like firecrackers in an old quiet church!

:confused:

Jamie I gotta agree with Andy on this one _ a friend here in town has the 20D and I've had two XT's one when I purchased the 30D > the 30D is by far the quietest of the three bodies in question.

[aparmley]

Parmesan strikes again!

[Picture a Jack-Blackesque Andy with a makeshift bed-sheet-cape running around flapping his arms!] :eek: :D

[cwphoto]

Parmesan strikes again!

[Picture a Jack-Blackesque Andy with a makeshift bed-sheet-cape running around flapping his arms!] :eek: :D

...um..... no thanks - some of us are still eating our tea!:p

[coldrain]

...um..... no thanks - some of us are still eating our tea!:p
Oh yeah, something interesting about Australia... while the rest of the world drinks tea, the Australians eat it. For some weird warp in history, they call dinner tea. And they say ta instead of thanks. :eek: ;) :p

[jamison55]

Believe me guys, I really wanted my 30D to be quieter. It may be a skooch, but not noticably so to me. When I first bought the 30D, I had my wife close her eyes and I fired both cameras off. She picked the 20D as the louder one, but had a really had time telling the difference...

And people still look at me when I shoot one off in church (and I'm usually using the 30D b/c that's the body that holds the 70-200).

[jamison55]

Oh yeah, something interesting about Australia... while the rest of the world drinks tea, the Australians eat it. For some weird warp in history, they call dinner tea. And they say ta instead of thanks. :eek: ;) :p

Yeah, and their "supper" consists of chocolate cake...

[24Peter]

And people still look at me when I shoot one off in church (and I'm usually using the 30D b/c that's the body that holds the 70-200).
Sorry to break the news pal, but they ain't looking at you like that 'cause of your camera... ;)
But on a more serious note, they do have those silent housings still photographers use on movie sets... :cool: