If you could do it all over, again...

[DonSchap]

For this exercise, you have an imaginary budget of $6500... (Use B&H pricing for reference) for an SLR (not P&S). Out of this budget comes all your camera body, lenses, filters, flashes, software, teleconverters, batteries, battery grips, cases, tripods, studio lights and printer costs (except paper and ink). You must cover a focal range from 10(12)mm - 400(500)mm however you want to (within budget). Every lens must have a "good" UV filter on it.

Which brand and model of digital SLR camera body would you buy?

What lenses would you buy and why?

What other stuff would you also add?

Please take a moment explain why you feel your choice is better, now, than your original choice was then. :D

Remember... stay in the budget... and use all of it... all purchasing, no renting or lease agreements. The one with the best use of funding (my decision and only one winner) can have my kit lens (Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 s/n 0620573042) This lens has had very little use. :D I will ship (USA only - USPS) for free. You have ten days. Contest expires 7/1/2006.

Good luck, folks :D

[Esoterra]

I was going to choose Canon as my choice until I read your thread on Canon's focus issues with Sigma and other 3rd party lens, and though there are 2 sides to the story, the seed of doubt is still planted within my soul. Because I have no Nikon seeds of doubt...if I get to do it over again... I would pony up the extra $$$ and put my money into a D200... still waiting to sell my gear though. We'll see.

With your budget though, here is my list

D200
Nikkor 28-70 f/2.8
Nikkor 70-200 f/2.8 VR
Tokina 12-24
Tamron 200-500

I should be in your budget...but if I am over... well I would put the rest on my AMEX! :eek:

Naw I know... cant go over the 6500... but Im tired of people telling me what I CANT do DANGIT!!!

Ok, I have to go now... I will check in on this thread tomorrow! I think you opened up another can of worms Don Juan!

[TenD]

Canon 20D body $1034.95
Canon 100-400L IS $1399.95
Canon 70-200 f/2.8 $1139.95
Canon 24-70 f/2.8 $1149.95
Tokina 12-24 f/4 $499.95
Canon 430EX flash $239.95
Canon RN-80N3 remote $49.95
Bogen 3221WN legset $174.95
Acratech Ball Head $269.95
2 lens plates $79.90
1 “L” plate 20D Kirk $139.95
1 Cokin WA filer holder $11.95
1 Cokin 77mm ring $13.95
1 HiTech .3 grad ND $39.95
1 HiTech .6 grad ND $39.95
1 HiTech .9 grad ND $39.95
2 Impact BP 511 batteries $69.90
2 SanDisk Ultra II 1 gig $105.90
1 Giottos Rocket blower $10.95
1 Canon 10EG bag $59.95
Cleaning stuff $20.00
For a total of: $6591.85
Canon Rebate 70-200 50.00
Canon Rebate 24-70 50.00
Total after rebates $6491.85

All of the lenses have a 77mm filter size so one adapter ring fits all for the ND filters. I may wish to add a warming filter and a polarizer to the mix after I am able to save for a while. Still even without those filters this set up would get me started nicely in a very professional manner.
I overlap quite a bit with my middle range zoom, but I kind of think of the 100-400 as something I would have on the rig for wildlife and the 70-200 as a portrait/street/all around urban assault zoom. In other words I don't think I would be swapping the two around with each other much.
It's certainly a weighty bag, but I never consider weight over image quality. I could have fun with this kit, it's similar to what I have now with a much better quality short zoom and the addition of the ultra wide which I am currently debating about.
I personally would never take a chunk of money like this and spend it all in one place like B&H even though they are a fantastic store. I would probably find the 100-400 used and probably forego the 24-70 for the older 28-70, again used, saving me a little coin. I would also have gone for a bag like the Nature trekker, but the B&H budget had my hands tied. I also would have scoured Ebay for stuff like the CF cards and batteries, I am certain I could have come in with some careful shopping a couple of hundred less than what I came up with through B&H enabling me to get the better bag and maybe even a Carbon Fiber Tripod. I see many possibilities and too much work tracking them all down for an excersize.

[jamison55]

After 2 years wth Canon DSLR's my vote goes to...CANON! The cleanest ISO's clenches it for me. Now if Nikon could clean up their high ISO noise I might be tempted by the superior AF and flash metering...

[cdifoto]

I don't really want your kit lens so I won't play the shopping game...plus I'm way over that with what I have already...

...but I would definitely stay with Canon. Like Jamie, I'm spoiled by clean high ISO, which I tend to use a lot. I'm even on a pair of lowly XT bodies.

[ReF]

this contest is a little complicated and time consuming so here's just a quick run down for fun:

question: the extreme wide and tele ends, that's with crop factor right? as in 400mm on 1.6x is only 250mm, right?

nikon d200, sb 800 x2, 17-55 f2.8, 80-200 f2.8 or 70-200 VR + 1.4x TC (maybe tamron sp), 50 f1.8
i don't know much about nikon or third party ultra wides.

OR

canon 5d, 580 EX x2, 17-40, 70-200 f2.8, 1.4x TC, 400mm f5.6, 50mm f1.4

if i were starting out i'd be torn between cleaner ISO and more pixels which are important for large prints or the crop factore which greatly boosts the macro and tele range that i often shoot.

would need a macro lens for either system, and probably a dynatran tripod and head while possibly saving for something better (like a gitzo).

sorry, i hardly ever use UV's and buying a decent one for each lens is too much $$$

the print setup i want would easily take up half the budget already so i didn't include it

[coldrain]

After 2 years wth Canon DSLR's my vote goes to...CANON! The cleanest ISO's clenches it for me. Now if Nikon could clean up their high ISO noise I might be tempted by the superior AF and flash metering...
Nikon does not have superior AF though... maybe compared to a XT, but a 5D or 30D have better AF performance than Nikons. Faster and more accurate... that is just how things are. I know it seems different at times with all the complaining going on. But if you would actually compare a D200 or D70s, you would realize how good the Canon AF is. This does not mean the nikon AF is not good though!!

[Rhys]

I'd probably go for a Nikon D200 or if the forthcoming Fuji S4Pro will take AIS lenses and work with them then the Fuji S4 Pro.

[George Riehm]

This would be a tough decision, and with Sony looming on the horizon the picture may change in the future. I just like the way Nikon thinks and it is reflected in their cameras, lenses, and accessories. It is unfortunate that their ISO performance is a stop behind Canon, but that's why I bought Noise Ninja.

I tend to be a minimalist so:

D200 $1700
50mm f/1.8 $110
105mm f/2.8 VR Micro $830
Nikkor 10.5 $570
Tokina 12-24 $500
Nikkor 28-70 f/2.8 $1335
Nikkor 70-200 f/2.8 VR $ $1535

Sub Total = $6580

If you want the best it costs more than $6500 add a SB600 four flash setup and a couple of Manfrotto tripods and heads and you're at $8000 real quick. Stick a D2Xs in there and add $3000.;)

[Rhys]

I don't find noise as objectionable as others. On the other hand, the reduced lattitude with the higher ISOs is more cumbersome.

Sony might come up trumps with their dSLR but as they don't have enough models then I'm not going to be that impressed. Olympus has 3 models under their belt (maybe more). Nikon has several current models on offer as does Canon. Pentax has one basic model with versions that have various tweaks. Fuji and Samsung have taken existing models and applied their own tweaks.

If I swop brands then I'll return to the Nikon fold. I liked Nikon but when I changed they didn't have a camera that would fully utilise my AIS lenses. Now they do, I'm more encouraged to change.

[DonSchap]

A few side notes... for clarification. Do not "over think" this...

The "Digital Correction Factor"(DCF) for APS-C sensors is NOT a factor in determining your 10(12mm)-400(500mm) focal range for this exercise (I apologize if I gave that impression). Basically, this focal range was added to make people think about stacking their lenses and to encompass the average full range of lensing. In other words, 300mm does not stretch to 400mm by virtue of the DCF, for this exercise. You must have at least 400mm stamped on the lens to qualify. Please do not violate the "honest intent" of the exercise. You can use a 1.4x or 2x Teleconverter along with your 300mm lens, to cover the range, I suppose. Of course, you didn't hear that from me. Don't forget to add the cost... and use a good one... not some $60 joke.

You folks are just lucky I didn't ask for MACRO lensing, too. :eek: LOL

Please include your B&H-pricing when you do post, as it will be important in the budgetary process. Taxes, shipping & handling, duties and insurance do not factor into this calculation.

The main thrust of this effort is have "newbies" or inexperienced folks understand that it costs more than $1500 to do a decent shopping job for good, solid and proved DSLR equipment, not make up a bag of crap or "trial-glass" and hardware. Try to use "good stuff" as the intent is to have you to design your dream $6500 "bag of glass"... remember, you supposedly would have to carry all this, too. LOL :rolleyes: (Those 64 oz lenses add up real fast.)


BTW & IMHO: If you are a seasoned professional or non-pro (hobbyist) and do not participate, I believe you real do a disservice to the intent of the exercise as a member of DCRP. People read a lot of this stuff, on a regular basis, and your ideas are respected... and therefore, with that territory... your "experienced" contribution becomes invaluable in the decision making of others who are "less experienced"... and regardless if you "need" the lens. :cool:

Let's just say: Your "professional" opinion is appreciated.

Give the lens, you might win, to a family-member or friend who is thinking of buying a Canon EOS APS-C DSLR BODY-ONLY! LOL :D

I will announce the winner after the July 4th, 2006 Holiday.

[cdifoto]

You're asking an awful lot for a kit lens. I'd be more apt to cooperate if it was for that shiny new 70-200mm f/2.8L IS. :D ;)

[DonSchap]

Even my "limited means" are stretched to own that lens.

You know, this is kind of funny... not even a rep or sales guy would do something like this. Here I am, "Joe Average"... simply trying to get people to think for themselves... and the "best idea of how to make it work for $6500" gets a little something for doing it.

It's a tough sell... LOL :rolleyes:

[jamison55]

Whoops - sorry, DON, like many people here habitually do, I completely glossed over your post before posting my vote and post.

$6500 huh? I think I can do this...

As I said earlier - my preference is Canon - here's what a $6500 B&H gift certificate would buy me (I hear Peter's giving them out for Christmas!).

Canon 30D Body $1300
Sigma 10-20 f4-5.6 $500
Canon 17-55 f2.8 IS $1180
Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS $1700
Tokina 80-400 f4-5.6 $490 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=230072&is=REG&addedTroughType=search)(This one's only because the rules say I need to go out to 400mm and this is the cheapes lens that does this. In reality I would never use this lens so the fact that it reportedly has crap IQ wouldn't matter - it would never leave the box).
Kenko 1.4x Converter $194 - (this is what I would use - with the 70-200 IS - when I needed a bit longer reach)
Canon 580EX $380
Canon 50 f1.4 $289

Oh look, I have $467 left over - oops, I forgot to buy UV filters...then again I don't use them...and if I did, I'd buy them off EBay where Hoya HMC's are $20 /ea.


Now let's get rid of the 400mm lens that I'd never use, and revise the list a bit...

Canon 30D Body $1300
Sigma 10-20 f4-5.6 $500
Canon 17-55 f2.8 IS $1180
Canon 35 f1.4 $1134
Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS $1700
Kenko 1.4x Converter $194
Canon 580EX $380

Total: $6388

There you go, my perfect kit - come to think of it, that's what's in my bag right now. This covers equiv 16-480mm with IS (it's CRAP to not consider the crop factor if that's the kind of body you're shooting with)!

Am I "off the hook" for not giving my "professional" opinion now?

[cdifoto]

Ok ok here's my go. Prices approximate.

[2] Canon 30D - $2640 (PSMAY)
[1] Tokina 12-24mm - $475 (PSMAY)
[1] 24-70 2.8L - $1100 (PSMAY)
[1] 70-200 2.8L IS - $1600 (PSMAY)
[1] 2.0x Tamron Tcon - $150
[2] 2GB Sandisk Ultra II - $172
[1] Canon 580EX - $360 (PSMAY)

Grand Total: $6497. 12-400mm covered whether you include crop factor or not. ;)

EDIT:

PS: Screw the filters. Can't even use them effectively on the long glass anyway. Now I'm "off the hook" too. Even though I'm no pro.

[aparmley]

Contest expires 7/1/2006.


A contest? weird contest.

I'd buy Canon and get the gear that I want. I'd be happy with that budget.

[some guy]

If I have to start all over again which is not difficult since I don't have much, I'd still stick with Canon. I don't just buy a dSLR body and add some lenses. Those people can buy Sony, Pentax/Samsung, and other fringe mfg. I am looking into a complete photography system and currently only Canon and Nikon fulfils that solidly.
They mfg their lenses to be optimised with their SLR bodies, sensors, AF system, flash etc. It's more than just slapping a Carl Zeiss badge onto a Sony A100. It's more than that... at least for me. And since I am used to Canon, I will stick with Canon. If it's blank slate, I might try Nikon. But who am I kidding, white lenses just get you more chicks at the party. :D

[Vich]

If I have to start all over again which is not difficult since I don't have much, I'd still stick with Canon. I don't just buy a dSLR body and add some lenses. Those people can buy Sony, Pentax/Samsung, and other fringe mfg. I am looking into a complete photography system and currently only Canon and Nikon fulfils that solidly.
They mfg their lenses to be optimised with their SLR bodies, sensors, AF system, flash etc. It's more than just slapping a Carl Zeiss badge onto a Sony A100. It's more than that... at least for me. And since I am used to Canon, I will stick with Canon. If it's blank slate, I might try Nikon. But who am I kidding, white lenses just get you more chicks at the party. :D
Ditto. Nikon or Canon are only contenders.

I'd get a 30D, 580EX flash, and go as far as I could towards my ideal lens collection, that I know will eventually be real expensive (way momre than $6500).

In this order:

30D
580EX FLASH
Good Monopod w/ ball-head
Canon EF 50 f2.8
Canon EF-S 17-55 f2.8 IS
Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS
Canon EF-S 10-22
Good Tripod w/ ball-head
Canon 1.4x TC
Canon EF 100 f2.8 Macro
Canon 300 f4.0L IS
Canon 85 f1.8


I found this exersise fascinating in that I started out by saying I would get the 5D and switched to APC-S sized sensor system.

[SpaceMonkey13]

Canon Rebel XT w/kit lens ($710)
Crap trial glass 70-300mm macro ($300)
DSLR For Dummies ($14.99)
Trip to Italy to figure out how to use camera ($5400)

I'd like to think there's a middle-ground between a $300 p&s camera and a $6500 bag many pros would be envious of. I'm hoping to find it.

Dave

[Rhys]

, white lenses just get you more chicks at the party. :D

In that case I'm getting darkest black lenses. I'm very happy with my wife.

Seriously though - I've just sold one of my Canon lenses. I never really liked nor used my Canon 50mm f1.8. It was one of those lenses that I thought was a good idea but which really wasn't. Pretty much the same can be said for my Tamron 70-300, which goes next.

[DonSchap]

Here is my "quality bag"... not skimping in important areas. I submit this knowing 'quality stuff' is not for the faint of heart. Wow!

The format for this information is in the following way:

Item Specific Item (Price) rebate B&H part #
Body Canon 30D ($1,299.95) CAE30D
Lens 1 Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4 AT-X 124AF Pro DX ($499.00) TO122440CAF
Lens 2 Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di II LD Aspherical (IF) ($449.00) TA175028CAF
Lens 3 Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di LD Aspherical (IF) ($379.00) $30.00 TA287528CAF
Lens 4 Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM ($1,699.00) $50.00 CA7020028LIS
Lens 5 Tamron SP AF 200-500mm f/5-6.3 Di LD IF ($879.00) $30.00 TA20050056M
Fltr for lens 1 Hoya 77mm Haze UV(0) (S-HMC) ($52.50) HOUVSMC77
Fltr for lens 2 Hoya 67mm Haze UV(0) (S-HMC) ($38.95) HOUVSMC67
Fltr for lens 3 Hoya 67mm Haze UV(0) (S-HMC) ($38.95) HOUVSMC67
Fltr for lens 4 Hoya 77mm Haze UV(0) (S-HMC) ($52.50) HOUVSMC77
Fltr for lens 5 N/A or practical
CP Fltr for lens 2 & 3 Hoya 67mm Circular Polarizer ($53.95) HOCP67
CP Fltr for lens 1 & 4 Hoya 77mm Circular Polarizer ($76.50) HOCP77
T/C Tamron 1.4x SP AF Pro Teleconverter for Canon EOS ($179.95) TA14XPCAF
Bag Lowepro Nature Trekker AW II Camera Backpack ($189.95) LONTAW2B
Flash 1 Canon 580EX Speedlite E-TTL II ($379.95) $20.00 CA580EX
Flash 2 Canon 430EX Speedlite E-TTL II ($239.95) $15.00 CA430EX
Tripod Bogen / Manfrotto 3011BN Tripod Legs (Black) ($109.95) BO3011BN

Total - rebates = $6,473.05... and this is a modest bag!

I guess I was hoping to see something like this for Nikon, Pentax, SONY and Fujifilm... just to see where people weigh in on this. All OEM equipment is okay... but kind of pricey, as you know.

BTW: I didn't even get to the software, yet. I'll have to use what comes "bundled" in the camera's box.

[Vich]

Here is my "quality bag"... not skimping in important areas. I submit this knowing 'quality stuff' is not for the faint of heart. Wow!

The format for this information is in the following way:

Item Specific Item (Price) rebate B&H part #
Body Canon 30D ($1,299.95) CAE30D
Lens 1 Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4 AT-X 124AF Pro DX ($499.00) TO122440CAF
Lens 2 Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di II LD Aspherical (IF) ($449.00) TA175028CAF
Lens 3 Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di LD Aspherical (IF) ($379.00) $30.00 TA287528CAF
Lens 4 Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM ($1,699.00) $50.00 CA7020028LIS
Lens 5 Tamron SP AF 200-500mm f/5-6.3 Di LD IF ($879.00) $30.00 TA20050056M
Fltr for lens 1 Hoya 77mm Haze UV(0) (S-HMC) ($52.50) HOUVSMC77
Fltr for lens 2 Hoya 67mm Haze UV(0) (S-HMC) ($38.95) HOUVSMC67
Fltr for lens 3 Hoya 67mm Haze UV(0) (S-HMC) ($38.95) HOUVSMC67
Fltr for lens 4 Hoya 77mm Haze UV(0) (S-HMC) ($52.50) HOUVSMC77
Fltr for lens 5 N/A or practical
CP Fltr for lens 1 & 2 Hoya 67mm Circular Polarizer ($53.95) HOCP67
CP Fltr for lens 3 & 5 Hoya 77mm Circular Polarizer ($76.50) HOCP77
T/C Tamron 1.4x SP AF Pro Teleconverter for Canon EOS ($179.95) TA14XPCAF
Bag Lowepro Nature Trekker AW II Camera Backpack ($189.95) LONTAW2B
Flash 1 Canon 580EX Speedlite E-TTL II ($379.95) $20.00 CA580EX
Flash 2 Canon 430EX Speedlite E-TTL II ($239.95) $15.00 CA430EX
Tripod Bogen / Manfrotto 3011BN Tripod Legs (Black) ($109.95) BO3011BN

Total - rebates = $6,473.05... and this is a modest bag!

I guess I was hoping to see something like this for Nikon, Pentax, SONY and Fujifilm... just to see where people weigh in on this. All OEM equipment is okay... but kind of pricey, as you know.
That's an impressive set of choices Don. Quite a hobbiest quiver.

Can't say for sure I'd trade it for my bag + $2000 but you are covered from 12mm to 700mm with a nice camera, flash set up, filters, solid tripod, etc. I'm 4K away from achieving the same. I think your choice of the Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS was really stellar. Curious to hear your opinions after 6 months using that puppy.

[ReF]

oh, that's the point of the exercise. shoulda said so sooner. here's what i'd get as an idea setup around that price range. i will deviate from the rules a bit

BTW donschap i think it's quite generous of you to give out the kit lens as a way of getting people to participate.




canon xt x2
580 EX x2
canon 10-22
canon 70-200 f2.8
17-40 f4
canon 50mm f1.4
canon 400mm f5.6
sigma 50mm macro
canon 1.4x TC
1gb sandisk ultra II x2
manfrotto 3021 Pro + 488 RC2 head + plates
hoya 77mm smc circular polarizer
hoya 58mm hmc circular polarizer

personally i also use IR filters which ins't something many others are into so i left it out

if doing it on a tighter budget then:
only 1 xt
only 1 580 EX
kenko extension tubes instead of sigma 50mm macro
sigma 10-20 or tokina 12-24 instead of canon 10-22
kenko pro or tamron sp 1.4x TC
dynatran equivalent of manfrotto 3021 Pro and 488 RC2

if on a slightly bigger budget then:
replace one xt with a 5d, this also elimates the need for the 10-22
1gb sandisk ultra II x4 instead of x2
hitech ND grads, soft and hard edge

if even more funds are available then:
replace the xt with 20d or 30d
replace 70-200 f2.8 with IS version
gitzo tripod, RRS plates and head


i think this was a good thread in getting people starting out to understand that a good, very capable setup is not cheap at all. of course, many beginners may even understand what all the above items are and why i listed very few cheaper equivalents.

note:
-i left out bags cuz that's a personal choice. budget a minimum of about $70-100 for a decent bag.
-i only use macro lenses in manual focus, thus the sigma choice to minimize cost. people who use AF in macro might want to look at a canon instead.
-most people probably won't make use of the 400mm range so i don't think it's quite neccessary
-the 400mm f5.6 is a personal choice and is more difficult to use than alternatives due to the fixed focal range, lack of IS, and manual focus requirement when used with a TC. the 100-400 IS, tamron 200-500, or sigma 50-500 will probably be a better choice for others at the expense of sharpness

[DonSchap]

to post my own list (hey, you have to start somewhere!), earlier (at the beginning of the contest), but I didn't want to tip the scales one way or the other, until I saw what kind of response I was going to get to the thread. The idea, as I stated, was to simply get the newer digital photographers to appreciate what realistic costs are involved in "covering the spread".

This stuff is not junk... this is relatively excellent quality stuff... and should serve anyone very well. Not perfect, by any means... but, you won't be putting it on the shelf in three months, either, which is probably why many people quit photography, initially. They tend get some rather mediocre or unsatisfactory results, not fully understanding why... and leave. They are totally disillusioned with the cheap lens they originally bought or old lens meant for 35mm film cameras and do not want to spring for new lenses to replace them. Feels like a real waste of coin... and probably is. The alternative: Why not make the leap right up front with the understanding that with knowledge comes wise choice?

P&S (point & shoot) cameras are already built with a lot of the features ready to rock. For 80% of people, this may be all they will ever use... but for the serious and creative photographer, it is just a teaser.

Let's be honest, so many come in here with the idea that $1500 is going to solve everything... or you can, somehow, fit it all in there under budget. Coming from a P&S budget... you can see how that leap of understanding is almost reasonable: "Let's see... the average very good P&S is around $500... and if I add a $1000 more, heck, I can get me a dSLR."

Truth be told (get real)... to get something you are not going to easily upgrade out of... and wind up having this relatively "unused" camera now sitting around... it's a most serious investment, indeed. The upfront costs are quite appreciable. In fact, its a whole different animal, not a "P&S on steroids."

The $6500 budget tends to show what the "basic, full and good quality line-up" of stuff can average out to. If you are being practical and serious, expect to spend no less... or you will get less. Arguments abound, of that I am sure... but you need only look at the lists of chosen equipment to see that we are darn close to the "average cost"... for a EOS 30D outfit. Add about $2000 more for a solid EOS 5D.

I asked you all to choose "good stuff", not lots of junk. That request certainly looks like it is being complied with. Also, I think by looking at the lists, we all kind of realize how much further you need to go to get to "top-drawer" equipment. :eek:

Good luck in your choices... and thanks for participating. :D

BTW: Don't worry about dSLR sales dropping or slipping because this exercise. If anything... people may be a little less reluctant to spend to knowing that... THESE ARE THE REAL COSTS! No hiding them behind cheap glass. :D

[TenD]

When I started my post, I first thought I could make that budget go a lot further(5D, etc.). But I had to quickly move back to the 20D to make it all fit. I snuck some 3rd party lenses in at first to try to save some money but with the quality(pro quality)3rd party lenses I ended up nearly the same, sometimes MORE that the Canon offerings(I still had to leave out the 10-22, but the Tokina is worthy and is in my consideration for an ultra wide). My own bag contains: 17-40 f/4L, 28-135 f/3.5-5.6 IS(Looking hard at the 28-70 f/2.8L), 80-200 f/2.8L(my personal favorite),300 f/4L, Kenko 1.4X pro, 10D, and various sundries, most of which I "re-purchased" in this exercise. I have purchased this arsenal over the last 6 years and film equipment. Alas the film stuff is gathering dust. I was also very surprised to see how much money I had invested in my bag already.

[some guy]

There is a flaw in this survey Don. By giving away your kit lens which I presume is a Canon-mount, you're gonna disuade non Canon shooters to participate. Afterall what is a Pentax *ist person gonna do with an Canon 18-55 kit lens?
Hence you will for obvious reason net more Canon participants.

So do I win anything for pointing this out? :)

[Rhys]

If I were to buy lenses then I'd probably go for wide angle lenses rather than telephoto.

As far as bodies are concerned, I'm not that interested in bodies that have "special" batteries because I don't get to take photos often enough to make it worthwhile to have one on charge all the time. It's better for me to have something that'll run off AA batteries on the basis that I often have some on charge and my AA charger charges a set of 4 in 15 minutes as well as the fact that I can always use alkalines if I don't have any AAs charged.

Image quality at higher ISOs isn't that interesting as I use only 100ASA. IQ at low ASA is more interesting.

Oddly enough, huge megapixelages don't interest me that much either. I'm happier with 6-8 megapixels. 10mp and more would be overkill. Sure - the Fuji S3 Pro does 12MP images but I gather the IQ is better when it's set to 6MP.

AF assist would be good too.... so.. you can see it's not really a case of one camera being perfect but more a case of all of them having things I like and none having everything (I hate it when this happens which is pretty much why I dumped AE cameras in the 90s for my trusty FMs).

[Vich]

As a personal choice, I would rather blow my budget and get the best, when the best is just 20 or 30 % (or even 2x) higher. If the best were 4x the cost, then I'd settle, maybe.

Case in point, Tamron 28-75 f2.8 vx. Canon 24-70 f2.8. About a 4x cost difference yet the Tamron is arguably Pro-stuff. IMO, the Canon gives an extra 10 or 20% on the IQ and functionality. Ultimately, if I did get the Tamron, it would be with the intent of upgrading some day.

CWPhoto made the point that he "can't believe what us guys drop on our hobby". So I think there's a set of us hobbiest for whom the Tamron lineup is appropriate, ie: those with lesser budget. If you make good money though, and this is your one really expensive hobby, then $10K as the ultimate equipment cost for a dream setup isn't so much. That's a year of taking lunch to work and not driving the toll road - or some similar sacrafice.

[DonSchap]

Some Guy: The winner can sell the prize for cash and then do as he/she wish. The lens is in great (nearly new) shape, so it has to have some value ($50-60?) on eBay?

Rhys: The batteries are consumed voraciously by "IS" driven lenses. Where do you think this additional sensor & motor power comes from... yes, the camera. Having a fully-charged BG-E2 is almost essential when you are strutting around with a EF 70~200 f/2.8 IS USM on your rig... or a pocket full of BP-511 batteries.

BTW, I also skipped through a high-speed CF card in the selection... hoping a purchase like this might prompt the B&H folks to toss one in for free. ;)

Again, best of luck with your lists. :D

[coldrain]

I'd buy a Nikon D50, (500$?)
with a 35mm f2 Nikkor, (230$?)
50mm f1.8 Nikkor, (100$?)
85mm f1.8 Nikkor, (310$?)
135mm f2 Nikkor, (400$?)
and Tokina f12-24 f4 (I am nice, aren't I), (450?)
Total $1990

Just to give it to Rhys, to get the AIS nonsense over with.

Then I would get a Canon EOS 350D (light travel), (650$ ?)
Canon EOS 5D (for max. IQ), (2800$ ?)
Tokina 12-24mm f4, (450$ ?)
Canon EF 17-40 f4 L, (700$ ?)
Canon EF 70-200 f4 L, (600$ ?)
Tamron 90mm f2.8 macro, (400$ ?)
and Soligor 1.7x convertor (125$ ?)
Total $5725

That is $7715 in total, only about $1000 over budget! It is worth the effort though, I think.:D

[Vich]

I'd buy a Nikon D50, (500$?)
with a 35mm f2 Nikkor, (230$?)
50mm f1.8 Nikkor, (100$?)
85mm f1.8 Nikkor, (310$?)
135mm f2 Nikkor, (400$?)
and Tokina f12-24 f4 (I am nice, aren't I), (450?)
Total $1990

Just to give it to Rhys, to get the AIS nonsense over with.

Then I would get a Canon EOS 350D (light travel), (650$ ?)
Canon EOS 5D (for max. IQ), (2800$ ?)
Tokina 12-24mm f4, (450$ ?)
Canon EF 17-40 f4 L, (700$ ?)
Canon EF 70-200 f4 L, (600$ ?)
Tamron 90mm f2.8 macro, (400$ ?)
and Soligor 1.7x convertor (125$ ?)
Total $5725

That is $7715 in total, only about $1000 over budget! It is worth the effort though, I think.:D
ROTFLMAO. I can truely say, Coldrain, that I look forward to each and every one of your posts.


Some Guy: The winner can sell the prize for cash and then do as he/she wish. The lens is in great (nearly new) shape, so it has to have some value ($50-60?) on eBay?
I confess to not having read through your initial post entirely. Missed the prize part. Ummm, if I .... can I have your bag instead (fully stocked - don't really need another kit lens)? Then I can promise you that I'll sing the praises of Tamron. Honest!

[DonSchap]

My camera bag has been quite a tidy sum... and its going require some serious photography, in the next year, to justify it.

An anecdote of sorts...
I told my mother, when I was young... "Mom, I want to make the 'big bucks'!"

She said, "Son... then be a lawyer, a doctor... or an Indian Casino owner."

To which I told her, "Nah... don't wanna be any of those."

To which she smiled and replied, "Then be a dectective... and get pictures of them... when they are with... their mistresses. You can make a lot more." :eek:

Photography... get the picture?

[Jason25]

You know, I'm really tempted by some of Canon's glass, but I think I would stick with Nikon. Just going to go with the meat of the kit on this one.

D70s - $680
10.5 - $590
Nikon 12-24 - $920
Tamron 17-50 - $450
70-200 VR - $1534 (after $100 rebate)
Tokina 100mm macro - $400
18-200 VR - $750
Sigma 80-400 OS - $1,000

$6,324 as per B&H pricing.

For primes, I'd be interested in : 18/2.8, Sigma 30/1.4, 50/1.8, 85/1.4, 105/2.8 VR, 180/2.8, 300/4 AF-S

EDIT: Prices changed to reflect B&H. Changed the mid-range to the Tamron 17-50, and the wide end to the Nikkor.

[DonSchap]

go ahead, hang it out there. Here's your chance to finally spell out the ($6500) 'bag of your dreams' on paper. Whittle around with it... just make sure it is what you would want to shoot with... quality, speed... and all the other nuances that make for successful equipment.

In other words... bump! LOL :D

[DonSchap]

Not as many responses as I would have hoped... or perhaps they are all lying low...

Here are the current submission contenders... (as I see it, as of June 30th, 1AM):
Jason25
coldrain
TenD
George Riehm
Esoterra
Ref
Jamison55
cdi-buy.com
Vich
SpaceMonkey13

If I have missed anyone else... please let me know.

You have about 22 more hours... then it is July 1st... end of session. Do not edit your entries after midnight, June 30th, 2006, otherwise you will be disqualified. I will review the entires after the holidays... and announce the winning submission.

$6500 limit... as per current B&H pricing... no other pricing is eligible... unless they do not list the particular item you have chosen. If your submitted list exceeds the limit... disqualified. This only is to make it fair and easier for everyone to evaluate. Yes, you may use "current" rebate offers to stretch your budget by the corresponding amount for the product. (B&H should list these in their pricing and that'll help.)

I will then contact the winner, via the DCRP email message service, for the address, so I may ship the Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 lens to that person.

Good luck, folks, and thanks for participating... it was fun.

[Rhys]

And nobody has chosen a Leica R9 with its digital back!

[jeisner]

K100D Body only - $619 (not out but very soon and is listed on BH)
Pentax DA 10-17 f3.5-4.5 Fisheye - $499
Pentax DA 16-45 f4 - $409
Pentax FA 24-90 f3.5-4.5 - $429
Sigma DG EX 70-200 2.8 - $839

Primes:
Pentax DA 14mm f2.8 - $629
Pentax FA 31mm f1.9 Limited - $879
Pentax FA 43mm f1.9 Limited - $469
Pentax FA 50mm f1.4 - $219
Pentax FA 77mm f1.9 Limited - $689
Pentax D-FA 100mm f2.8 Macro - $539

TOTAL = $6,216

[DonSchap]

I am still reviewing... but, the sights have narrowed considerably. :) Some sincere effort went into several of these... and that only makes that much more interesting and tight. I am busily counting the budgets and evaluating the equipment suggested.

This limited exercise has demonstrated exactly what I had hoped... and I kind of wish anyone diving into the DSLR pool would have a chance to see just what they are getting themselves into and the investment involved in doing it "right." Is the DSLR pool a "bottomless pit"? No... but, the darn thing can sure get deep, huh?

Of course, there are those who will argue that there is no right way... and others that say there is only one way... and then the faction who say... ANYWAY!

The bottom line... as I see it... and this exercise has relatively demonstrated, it'll take nearly $6500 to acquire a reasonable bag of glass, a decent camera and other good quality stuff to cover the 10-500mm spectrum.

I figure to do it in grand style... with top-drawer glass... easily $10,000 and maybe as much as $12,000.

I'm sure we all had a "gulp" or two (that kind of throat tightening you can only feel when you sense the water is rising in ways you had hoped it wouldn't) watching the numbers ring-up as you calculated your bags.

I am certain I will have 'the winner' announced, tomorrow.

I want to thank you for your interest and participation. :D Happy Fourth of July!

[DonSchap]

Canon 20D body $1034.95
Canon 100-400L IS $1399.95
Canon 70-200 f/2.8 $1139.95
Canon 24-70 f/2.8 $1149.95
Tokina 12-24 f/4 $499.95
Canon 430EX flash $239.95
Canon RN-80N3 remote $49.95
Bogen 3221WN legset $174.95
Acratech Ball Head $269.95
2 lens plates $79.90
1 “L” plate 20D Kirk $139.95
1 Cokin WA filer holder $11.95
1 Cokin 77mm ring $13.95
1 HiTech .3 grad ND $39.95
1 HiTech .6 grad ND $39.95
1 HiTech .9 grad ND $39.95
2 Impact BP 511 batteries $69.90
2 SanDisk Ultra II 1 gig $105.90
1 Giottos Rocket blower $10.95
1 Canon 10EG bag $59.95
Cleaning stuff $20.00
For a total of: $6591.85
Canon Rebate 70-200 50.00
Canon Rebate 24-70 50.00
Total after rebates $6491.85

All of the lenses have a 77mm filter size so one adapter ring fits all for the ND filters. I may wish to add a warming filter and a polarizer to the mix after I am able to save for a while. Still even without those filters this set up would get me started nicely in a very professional manner.
I overlap quite a bit with my middle range zoom, but I kind of think of the 100-400 as something I would have on the rig for wildlife and the 70-200 as a portrait/street/all around urban assault zoom. In other words I don't think I would be swapping the two around with each other much.
It's certainly a weighty bag, but I never consider weight over image quality. I could have fun with this kit, it's similar to what I have now with a much better quality short zoom and the addition of the ultra wide which I am currently debating about.
I personally would never take a chunk of money like this and spend it all in one place like B&H even though they are a fantastic store. I would probably find the 100-400 used and probably forego the 24-70 for the older 28-70, again used, saving me a little coin. I would also have gone for a bag like the Nature trekker, but the B&H budget had my hands tied. I also would have scoured Ebay for stuff like the CF cards and batteries, I am certain I could have come in with some careful shopping a couple of hundred less than what I came up with through B&H enabling me to get the better bag and maybe even a Carbon Fiber Tripod. I see many possibilities and too much work tracking them all down for an excersize.

TenD did an excellent job :D ... focused where the money needed to be spent and proved out a great bag for under the $6500. :cool:

He wins my "kit lens" (Canon EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6) and has my thanks for making up a great bag... as requested. TenD, please message me with your address and I will ship your "prize" to you, right away.

Once again, my thanks to you all. It was a sincere pleasure. You definitely highlighted just how much our "avenue of pursuit" is going to cost us, in bits and pieces of $1000 lensing.

Ref's entry requires "honorable mention"... but the submission tended to wander off the real intent by several substitutions... and left me wondering... how could you be sure? This was for one bag of reasonable quality... lenses, filters, flash, camera and some novelties. If you review TenD's effort, I think you'll see he clearly met the request... and well done, too.

[jamison55]

I agree. Hats off to TenD for putting together the most complete $6500 kit.

[TenD]

Thanks guys, I wasn't really trying to win anything, I thought it an interesting exercise. In my job(fire fighting)I have been on Standby for some time and was a little bored, so I had some time to peruse the B&H catalogue. I have decided to let Don keep the kit lens, I really don't have a need for it as I shoot with a 10D and already have a 17-40 f/4L that effectively covers that range. Here is a copy of the PM I sent Don earlier today:
It's nice to win, I thought this was a great exercise and taught me you can get a really nice kit for $6500. I appreciate the prize, but I really can't use the 18-55 lens as I am still using an ancient 10D and already own a 17-40 f/4L. When I originally posted I didn't even read there was a prize. I can't really use the lens and I would feel guilty about taking it and then selling it. So, it was a fun thread, and you get to keep your 18-55.

[DonSchap]

Well... that was unexpected.

Anyway, I want to thank TenD for his excellent submission and gracious refusal of the "prize" for his efforts. For now, the lens returns to the glass-shelf and once again proving... you can't even give one of these away! LMAO :p

A closing remark, though... this was a fun exercise... as it was intended to be... and obviously, an eye-opener. $6500 gets you close, but no cigar.

I considered what would be a "perfect bag" for the beginning pro or serious hobbyist (non-pro)... who wasn't concerned with having all "L"-glass in his sack, but just wanted to cover the spread from Ultra-wide to high telephoto for a Canon APS-C digital body (350D/20D/30D) with quality semi-pro glass & w/ thin, trouble-free filters (reducing chance vignetting while zooming).

I also did the homework and came up with this little list. The "Alternate" lenses are simply listed as budgetary variations to maintain minimum quality levels.

Item Specific Item (Price) rebate B&H part #

Lens 1 (UW) Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4 AT-X 124AF Pro DX ($499.00) TO122440CAF
Lens 1 - Alternate Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM ($689.95) CA102235EF
Lens 2 (Portrait Prime) Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM ($314.00) $25.00 CA5014EF
Lens 2 - Alternate Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM ($339.95) $25.00 CA8518EF
Lens 3 (Standard) Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di LD Aspherical (IF) ($379.00) $30.00 TA287528CAF
Lens 3 - Alternate Tamron SP AF17-50mm f/2.8 XR Di II LD Aspherical (IF) ($449.00) TA175028CAF
Lens 4 (Telephoto) Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM ($1,699.00) $50.00 CA7020028LIS
Lens 4 - Alternate A Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 EX DG APO Macro HSM ($889.00) SI7020028DMC
Lens 4 - Alternate B Tamron SP AF70-210mm f/2.8 XR Di LD Asperical (IF) (~$900.00) TA7020028CAF (Currently not yet announced)
Lens 5 (Super telephoto) Tamron SP AF 200-500mm f/5-6.3 Di LD IF ($879.00) $30.00 TA20050056C
Lens 5 - Alternate A Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM ($1,399.95) $50.00 CA10040045LE
Lens 5 - Alternate B Sigma 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6 EX DG APO OS ($999.95) SI8040045DGC

Fltr for lens 1, 4 & 5 Alt. Hoya 77mm CP/UV Haze (HMC) ($172.50) HOUVCPU77
Fltr for lens 2 Hoya 58mm CP/UV Haze (HMC) ($77.95) HOUVCPU58
Fltr for lens 3 Hoya 67mm CP/UV Haze (HMC) ($95.95) HOUVCPU67
Fltr for lens 5 B+W 86mm Kaesemann CP ($214.95) BWKCP86

T/C Tamron 1.4x SP AF Pro Teleconverter for Canon EOS ($179.95) TA14XPCAF

Bag Lowepro Nature Trekker AW II Camera Backpack ($189.95) LONTAW2B

Flash 1 Canon 580EX Speedlite E-TTL II ($379.95) $20.00 CA580EX
Flash 2 Canon 430EX Speedlite E-TTL II ($239.95) $15.00 CA430EX

Tripod Bogen / Manfrotto 3011BN Tripod Legs (Black) ($109.95) BO3011BN
Ballhead Bogen / Manfrotto 484RC2 Mini Ballhead with Rapid Connect 2 (Quick Release) ($54.95) BO484RC2


Total 1st choices w/ matching filters + Canon EOS 20D ($999.95) - rebates = $6488.50

Remember: f/2.8... or you may be late.

The reason there are no 70-300mm lenses in this list, is there are none currently capable of f/2.8... and the minimum focus for such a lens is 5 feet. These two aspects eliminate this type of lens from the "low-light" or "indoor" bag. If we only consider only outdoor or sports shooting, then this becomes an entirely different discussion. I would, for the sake of argument, concede the 70-300mm f/4-5.6 as an "optional" lens... but not as a desired primary. Giving up f/2.8 between the range of 70 and 200mm seems to be a serious concession, indeed.

For those who just cannot live without this range, here is the back-ordered "option" to add:
Optional Lens (Telephoto) Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM ($559.00) $25.00 CA7030045ISQ
Fltr for Optional Lens Hoya 58mm CP/UV Haze (HMC) ($77.95) HOUVCPU58



Enjoy the summer... this thread and poll are over. :D