Polarizing issues

[DonSchap]

Over the past couple of days, I've noticed significant focusing issues arising when I attempt to use a circular polarizer (CPL) filter on long glass.

With the CPL attached, the Canon 70~200mm f/2.8 and the TAmROn 200-500mm f/5-6.3 are focusing rather poorly at the long end. SO badly, in fact, at 500mm on the TAmROn is almost unrecognizable.

Take the CPLs off and they are both razor sharp.


Has anyone else experienced this kind of response with these type of filters?
Is the Canon CACP77 filter the only game in town?
Is anyone using or can vouch for a Tiffen brand TICP77 polarizer?
Is anyone using a B+W brand BWCP77 polarizer?

I would like to resolve this issue quickly... so I am starting on the DCRP, before I go straight to the manufacturers and get the "run-around" and finger pointing (or giving). LOL.

[CptOfGondor]

TAmROn SP AF200~500mm F/5-6.3 Di LD looks like a freaking cannon w/ lens hood + extension to 500mm. LoL

[timmciglobal]

CP reduces incoming light by 1.5>2 stops... could be that?

Tim

[DonSchap]

TAmROn SP AF200~500mm F/5-6.3 Di LD looks like a freaking cannon w/ lens hood + extension to 500mm. LoL

Chew makin' fun of my lil' friend? (Al Pacino dialect)
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CP reduces incoming light by 1.5>2 stops... could be that?

Tim

Tim... the Canon 70~200mm f/2.8 wouldn't give two hoots if you put a 3x T/C on it... the focus is deeply disturbed by this filter. I called Canon Support... out of desperation and their take is... "Just use our CP... then we'll talk." Canon CP ($124)

They would NOT recommend any other manufacturer... so the question remains... are Tiffen ($68) or B+W ($120) good enough, also? The 77mm SunPak CP that I have works fine on the TAmROn 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6, mainly because focus is not as big an issue with that focal length. When you start stretching to 200mm+... then it really seems to start becoming an issue.

So... experienced users can apply. How about you wedding guys... any ideas on these manufacturers? You have the "L"-glass, what do you use?

[cdifoto]

I don't know if this helps any or not, but I couldn't get Bigma to focus with a CPL on it either. Without the CPL it was fine. I don't have a 77mm CPL for my Ls so I can't speak there. I do have a 77mm 3 stop (.9) ND Filter made by Hoya and it doesn't seem to be problematic so far.

Hoya, B&W, and Tiffen are 3 of the best names out there. I don't remember the source, but I heard Canon filters are no better than the bottom feeder brands...you're just paying for the Canon logo. It may or may not be true.

[DonSchap]

First thing, tomorrow, I will make a trip back to Calumet Photographic... where I got this beast. There, I can fire it up with several different 77mm CP filters and find out which one cuts the mustard.

The one thing I do not want to do is play the "back & forth" game with some Internet bunch. Knowing exactly what I need is the only way to win. I guess I had just hoped someone might have had this issue before... and successfully addressed it. A lot of outdoor shots really are enhanced by CP filters, especially lake shots. :cool: All that reflected sun goes away and you can actually see something... with color no less! :eek:

Thanks Don, for your input.

[cdifoto]

First thing, tomorrow, I will make a trip back to Calumet Photographic... where I got this beast. There, I can fire it up with several different 77mm CP filters and find out which one cuts the mustard.

The one thing I do not want to do is play the "back & forth" game with some Internet bunch. Knowing exactly what I need is the only way to win. I guess I had just hoped someone might have had this issue before... and successfully addressed it. A lot of outdoor shots really are enhanced by CP filters, especially lake shots. :cool: All that reflected sun goes away and you can actually see something... with color no less! :eek:

Thanks Don, for your input.

I don't blame you for not wanting to play the back and forth game. If you can try a Hoya SMC (Super Multi-Coated) 77mm CPL filter on your 70-200 and it works, let me know. It seems to be the best priced high quality filter out there. B&W filters are like 50 bucks more.

[noyjimi]

Don,

I use a 77mm B+W Kaesseman (with a step-up ring) on a 200mm L with no problems, if that helps any bit.

-noyjimi

[noyjimi]

I don't blame you for not wanting to play the back and forth game. If you can try a Hoya SMC (Super Multi-Coated) 77mm CPL filter on your 70-200 and it works, let me know. It seems to be the best priced high quality filter out there. B&W filters are like 50 bucks more.

Much cheaper on eBay and they're genuine enough for me :D (as always, DD before buying)

[DonSchap]

is a staggering 86mm! Not many manufacturers address that size. Even B+W only has a Kaessemann CP ($229) for it. Tiffen ($118) and Hoya ($144) make a CP that size, also, but that's where it seems to end.

I would like to also know which one can do the trick with it. I'm telling you, it is frightening to see the results with the OEC CPL on it. That filter will probably never see the light of day, again. Isn't too much call for 86mm. Well, maybe as a little frisbee. :rolleyes:

[cwphoto]

So... experienced users can apply. How about you wedding guys... any ideas on these manufacturers? You have the "L"-glass, what do you use?

I use the Canon CPs (52mm drop-in, 72mm and 77mm). I don't ever remember having focusing issues.:confused:

[cdifoto]

is a staggering 86mm! Not many manufacturers address that size. Even B+W only has a Kaessemann CP ($229) for it. Tiffen ($118) and Hoya ($144) make a CP that size, also, but that's where it seems to end.

I would like to also know which one can do the trick with it. I'm telling you, it is frightening to see the results with the OEC CPL on it. That filter will probably never see the light of day, again. Isn't too much call for 86mm. Well, maybe as a little frisbee. :rolleyes:

Hmm....the CPL I had for Bigma (86mm) is also an OEC...maybe it's just a junk filter...

[coldrain]

Canon circular polarizers are quite good. I use a B+W polarizer on my 70-200 f4 L and it works fine, so my bet is that the polarizer you are using is a lot less circular and a lot more linear than "advertized". This is the only thing that can explain AF going bad.

B=W are of course good... Tiffen seems to be a bit questionable and I use a cheap Hama (probably the same manufacturer as Hoya?) non-multicoated 77mm on my Tokina, and it seems to work well... I need to use it more to really know how well it performs though.

[cdifoto]

Canon circular polarizers are quite good. I use a B+W polarizer on my 70-200 f4 L and it works fine, so my bet is that the polarizer you are using is a lot less circular and a lot more linear than "advertized". This is the only thing that can explain AF going bad.

B=W are of course good... Tiffen seems to be a bit questionable and I use a cheap Hama (probably the same manufacturer as Hoya?) non-multicoated 77mm on my Tokina, and it seems to work well... I need to use it more to really know how well it performs though.

I dont know about Hama but Tiffen makes Hoya. Hoyas can be had in different grades, however. SMC (Super Multi-Coated) seem to be quite good.

[coldrain]

As far as I know Tiffen is not the same as Hoya. You can see that even from build quality... Tiffen seems cheap. I also remember seeing a Tiffen polarizer (I am sort of sure it was a Tiffen... but i am not 100% sure!) next to my B+W when I was buying one, and the Tiffen had a very weird colour, which made me decide to go for the B+W. I did not want a weird colour cast...

One thing is certain, Hoya makes their own filters. If anything, Tiffen's CPL filters get made by someone else.

[cdifoto]

As far as I know Tiffen is not the same as Hoya. You can see that even from build quality... Tiffen seems cheap. I also remember seeing a Tiffen polarizer (I am sort of sure it was a Tiffen... but i am not 100% sure!) next to my B+W when I was buying one, and the Tiffen had a very weird colour, which made me decide to go for the B+W. I did not want a weird colour cast...

One thing is certain, Hoya makes their own filters. If anything, Tiffen's CPL filters get made by someone else.

Oops you're right. It says Made by TOKINA on the back of my Hoya box. :o

[ReF]

i also hear a fair bit of complaints concerning several tiffen filters. hoya, tokina, and kenko are all connected in some way.

don, you said somewhere on another thread that the CP you are using is a cheapie right? well i really think the CP is to blame here. i've never had any sort of problem with the Hoya SMC CP on ANY of my lenses including the 70-200 f4 and f2.8, both with and without the 1.4x TC, and 400mm f5.6 L. even in dim, gloomy weather the 400 f5.6 lens focuses quickly with the CP on. another thing don, the glass elements on super teles may be huge, but do you really think something with such a narrow FOV is going to need a 86mm filter? go to a store and try a step down ring and a filter one or two sizes down. i don't think you are going to see any vignetting, especially not an a 1.6x crop. but don't take my word for it, just try it out and see if it works

[JTL]

I think Coldy is right...maybe it's not a circular polarizer at all...and it's actually a linear...

Did you do the mirror test?

[DonSchap]

I went to the Camera shop and fired up "ol' Betsy". We shot a series using just the UV... and then a series using the Polarizer stacked on top. It actually improved the focus! No kidding. :eek:

I was shooting at f/2.8 and the gal goes, "Are you sure you want to be a f/2.8 when you do this?"

I answered, "Why yes, little lady... :rolleyes: I shoot wide-open for testing."

I figured I wanted to be at the shallowest DOF I could get.. focus and fire. The polarizer had a definite reduction in f-stop... but at f/2.8, who gives two hoots? The resulting photos (with and without the polarizer) were dead on sharp, but there was a definite improvement with the polarizer on it. I'm not complaining, that's the way I use these lenses, anyway.

About 'IS'... I have to tell ya... picking up the 200mm and just pushing the shutter release, without having to think about it... man... that's unsettling. Bad habits could set it, quick.

Okay, about the FOV on the 86mm. One of the drawbacks of shooting with the SP AF200-500mm f/5-6.3 is that at 500mm... you are at f/6.3. You add the Polarizer (with its inherent light attenuation) and you are definitely playing with the camera's abilty to AF. The f-stop is well beyond f/8... perhaps f/9. That may be what I am suffering from, with that issue. Like I said, it's hard to test... at 200mm f/5, the lens was still out-of-focus. I do not have an 86mm reducer to get to 77mm and throw this new Hoya 77mm CP on there, to see what happens (but, there is one on the way... LOL).

At 86mm, it is tough to find equipment and accesories. I mean to tell you, 82mm was hard, with the TAmROn SP AF28-105mm f/2.8 LD. Nobody seems to carry this size, locally. Just isn't enough call for it.

Here are the SunPak 77mm CP (before) and the Hoya 77mm CP (after):
These following shots are not the store test. These are home test shots: The first is from last night and the second from this afternoon.

B4 100% crop
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AFTA 100% crop
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Personally, I'd tend to say that is pretty significant. :rolleyes: Why... you can count the hairs on his chest! :eek:

Thanks for the contributions guys... testing over.

[cdifoto]

Looks a Helluva lot better to me. I'll be going with Hoyas across the board then.

[phillman5]

Don,
Have you found a CP for the Canon 70-200 f2.8? What did you get finally? In a hurry before I left on a trip I got a Tiffen CP and a skylight filter for my 28-105L. I noticed no trouble with the CP, but the skylight filter is loose in its frame and easily slides about, I am sure it will crack soon.

Tim,
Can I ask the name of the tripod you show sitting on the chair.

[DonSchap]

The Hoya 77mm CP wound up being my selection... after some in-store testing at Calumet Photographic.

The cheaper SunPak 77mm CP, that I had, severely impacted the Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8 ISM USM's autofocus. The TAmROn SP AF11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 Di II LD doesn't seem to care... it's AF is razorsharp... but look at that focal range? 7mm! LOL :D The only reason I have it on the UWA is to get some sharper skies... and minimize glare/reflections. I have found that sharp focus usually is a minor issue with UWAs... barrel distortion is more of a concern than anything.

11mm f/4.5 1/60 sec. ISO-400 w/flash w/CP and UV... note vignette shadows.
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I did post the CP results on the 70-200mm in this thread. (See post #19)

BTW: The lil' tripod in the chair is mine. It is a SLIK... and you can get them for around $30. They are great for table top shooting and non-sandbag heavy lens stabilization.