View Full Version : Sony Alpha 100 dSLR Announced
Norm in Fujino
06-05-2006, 06:38 PM
Newest dSLR on the block from the recent buyers of Konica-Minolta:
Sony Alpha 100 dSLR (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_8382.html)
britkev
06-05-2006, 07:07 PM
A $900 body seems an odd point to enter the market...
too expensive to take much of a bite out of the D50/Digital Rebel camp, yet is there enough there to tempt the more serious photgraphers, who presumably will already have a significant collection of Canon/Nikon glass, away from the D200/30D
Newest dSLR on the block from the recent buyers of Konica-Minolta:
Sony Alpha 100 dSLR (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_8382.html)
They're so brave. IS + full APC sensor + larger viewfinder + 2 1/2 inch LCD, good so far. Word on price? No mention on the Sony site.
Their relationship with Zeiss should give them a confidence boost.
EDIT: Oh, I see BritKev has a price ($900). Yeah, very odd. Maybe they figure on starting a Megapixel war. Some sample high ISO shots will come along soon and we'll see if their APC sensor can cut it at over 10MP.
DonSchap
06-05-2006, 07:21 PM
The only lens that seems unusual is the 18-70mm offering. That is close the to perfect walk-around focal length... except they didn't open it up. At f/3.5-5.6, that's not enough juice for anyone to make the leap. It appears to be just another mediocre 'KIT' lens. (Yawn...)
To me, it appears that they are simply offering a roster of K-M, TAmROn and SIGMA medium-end glass. There is nothing extraordinary here... so I'm probably sticking with the Canon... at least for for the time being and do them a big favor. Call me if things get significantly better... otherwise, this is just a rehash of two-year old technology.
Now, if they came out with f/2.8 glass in a 18-70mm or even a 17-200mm... they'd effectively kill off everything. :eek: Ah yes, the dream offering, eh? Still, it's not there... wow, another BLOWN opportunity for what could have been a super launch! It's not like they didn't know this was going to happen. (shaking head in disappointment.)
Oh well... Zzzzzzzzzzzz :rolleyes: Shake me when they do... oh yeah, I forgot... it's a got "anti-shake" technology built into the camera... and full sensor, too? No, that's NOT a full sensor... that's a LARGER than normal APS-C sensor. Much better idea than trying to get the same effect for the KM-7D's 6.1MP. So... the lenses are still geared to APS-C style shooting, although it can make use of 35mm lensing. Not much of a change, here. Kind of reminiscent of the Fujifilm S3 (12MP).
Okay, y'all... as I consider this... I'll bite. Honestly, I'll get one of these SONY ALPHA bodies... in July, just for the hell of it and "take one for the team!" Heck, the price is right ($900) (considering they are still selling KM-7Ds for about the same price) and they are effectively "dumping" these 10MP units to initially flood the market. God knows, I've got glass... others have glass... heck, we all might have glass... from the earlier Minolta MAXXUMs. Might as well get some more mileage out of it. This darn thing better have "standard" flash hot-shoe, but I kind of doubt it. They are already talking about all sorts of new flash items. Upon closer examination, they have the KM-style of foot on the flashes... so it's SONY/K-M flash or nothing.
Hey... is there a new "money-tree" out there or something?
Check this link for more...
http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20565
aparmley
06-05-2006, 07:22 PM
Some sample high ISO shots will come along soon and we'll see if their APC sensor can cut it at over 10MP.
I'm guessing this will be their weakness!?? :confused:
polysigh
06-05-2006, 07:38 PM
Only time will tell how these pictures will shape up but I got a pretty good feeling they'll will be similar to those from the Nikon D200... since Sony did supply Nikon the CCD used in it.
My thinking is if Sony can make things right (marketing, technology, etc.), they could come up on top or atleast on par with Nikon.
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Maxxum 7D, 7000
AF 17-35 f2.8-4, 28-85 f3.5-4.5, 28-80 f4-5.6, 50 f1.7, 75-300 f4.5-5.6
Proprietary hot shoe = dumb idea that won't help win them any converts...
daddy
06-06-2006, 02:02 AM
For me it seems that Sony took same inspiration from Olympus dust protection system.
Price is really too high to have a chance against Eos 350D an Nikon D50
capedeci
06-06-2006, 02:20 AM
good for me.
900 is def not the street price when it released.
sure it ll be 800 and lower at the end of the year. Which is a good combo of 10.2MPwith AS and anti dust (kills olympus).
prop hot shoe is no problem for me.. Either canon or nikon shoe canot use TTL with other flashes not made specifically for them, so i dont use manual flashes.
Norm in Fujino
06-06-2006, 02:57 AM
. Which is a good combo of 10.2MPwith AS and anti dust (kills olympus).
Bravely spoken. I'll take my chances and wait to see the real article before paying my last respects.
drew_viii
06-06-2006, 05:22 AM
For me it seems that Sony took same inspiration from Olympus dust protection system.
D50
i think they also took same inspiration from sigma's camera with protective shield over the sensors... it said it has 2 anti dust system, the shake and the cover.... and i knew that sigma has that the same cover anti dust system...
this one seems like a winner so far. now we'll have to see how the lens line up turns out and if there are any problems
i'm thinking this camera's gonna take a good bite out of 30d and d200 sales at $800
hopefully this kind of competition will force canon and nikon to come out with a stabilized sensor of their own SOON (so i don't have to jump ship and sell my stuff or dish out the big bucks for a stabilized lens)
Maalak
06-06-2006, 06:48 AM
Price is really too high to have a chance against Eos 350D an Nikon D50
I'm not so sure... you get considerably more bang for your buck... the Rebel XT generally costs about the same, especially if you want a decent lens better than the 18-55 the kit comes with... the price for the XT in stores is about the same, and I'm sure the online price for the sony will be on par with what you can get the XT for online.
as for the d50, you get features that are more on par with the d70s then the d50 for the extra money.
I've been holding on buying a digital SLR to see if Nikon is going to update the d70s, although now I'm very much looking forward to checking the Sony Alpha out when it's released.
George Riehm
06-06-2006, 10:42 AM
this one seems like a winner so far. now we'll have to see how the lens line up turns out and if there are any problems
i'm thinking this camera's gonna take a good bite out of 30d and d200 sales at $800
hopefully this kind of competition will force canon and nikon to come out with a stabilized sensor of their own SOON (so i don't have to jump ship and sell my stuff or dish out the big bucks for a stabilized lens)
The a100 looks pretty darned impressive... Make that "very" darned impressive. If the images turn out to be as good as the camera, I may start building a small collection of Minolta lenses in the very near future.
About my only niggles are the lack of an info LCD, and using the flash as the AF illuminator (similar to Canon).
I agree with you Ref, this camera could definately, and very seriously, impact the current market leaders, and potentially kill-off the four thirds consortium.
For the first time in a couple of years, I am enthusiatic about a new dSLR, and can't wait to see what Sony throws at us next.
P.S. It's too bad that they didn't find a way add the very nice laser AF system from the 7xx and 8xx series.
Proprietary hot shoe = dumb idea that won't help win them any converts...
Will Sony ever learn?
Maybe it's in the Sony designer handbook, "get'em on the accessories, never share our customers, everything proprietary".
Although, if by some wierd twist of fate, they match the Nikon D200 in IQ (esp. high ISO), have built in IS, Dust protection, and have true Carl Zeiss lense IQ, then $900 will indeed attract some converts. Dream on, ahe?
coldrain
06-06-2006, 12:31 PM
Canon can NOT make the sensor have IS over the entire lineup, since only APS-C DSLR's can do that because of the reduced image circle. Full frame sensors would get in trouble (ie. sensor moves out of the image circle). From a purely technological standpoint IS in a lens is a better idea (You can't for instance make advanced sensors with off-center microlenses when the sensor is allowed to move a few mm.)
And I am also sure there are some licensing/patent issues involved in this area too (just like with USM).
And probably the sensor of this Sony will match what Nikon offers. If their software(processing) is up to spec and the range of lenses has some good ones inbetween there (the old Minolta lens lineup is not all that spectacular in that respect), Sony will not have to wait their stated 3 years to gain a 25% market share.
George Riehm
06-06-2006, 05:44 PM
Canon can NOT make the sensor have IS over the entire lineup, since only APS-C DSLR's can do that because of the reduced image circle. Full frame sensors would get in trouble (ie. sensor moves out of the image circle). From a purely technological standpoint IS in a lens is a better idea (You can't for instance make advanced sensors with off-center microlenses when the sensor is allowed to move a few mm.)
And I am also sure there are some licensing/patent issues involved in this area too (just like with USM).
And probably the sensor of this Sony will match what Nikon offers. If their software(processing) is up to spec and the range of lenses has some good ones inbetween there (the old Minolta lens lineup is not all that spectacular in that respect), Sony will not have to wait their stated 3 years to gain a 25% market share.
All very good points especially as the AS system applies to full frame sensors. But if I'm Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, Olympus, Pentax and Samsung I have just seen my entry level cash-cows tipped.
Sony is no stranger to signal processing at the extremes. If the 10MP sensor is as good as the D200, this is a winner. If it's better, and DRO/Bionz work as advertised, then this is a killer.
Now, what if Sony launches a professional dSLR? From what I have read KM had one in the works.;)
coldrain
06-06-2006, 06:17 PM
I agree that Sony may have a winner in this one. It would seem a bit off to pay double for a D200 with in effect only buying weather sealing extra, for instance. If their 10.x mp model performs better than a D200 noise wise for instance, and a bit more smooth in gradients, it will not only compete with entry level cameras, but also with a Canon EOS 30D, a Nikon D80.
KM always had pro cameras.... one of the reasons their marketshare was so very small is their lens lineup. This is where Canon and Nikon are on top. And a LOT has to change there before they will be a viable option for pros... a nice body does not make a nice system.
Canon was very slow to enter the digital camera market, and had to play catch-up with Sony for years. In DSLR land they have been the main player since the introduction of the EOS D30. It will be interesting how Sony's new DSLRs will influence Canon. And to see if Nikon can keep up (they are comparatively a small company). The Dx2 gave/gives good hope Nikon CAN keep up though.
George Riehm
06-06-2006, 07:58 PM
Guess we will have to see what happens with Zeiss, and whether the 9D turns into the a200.
Sonys advantage is a clean slate, but with some history in the Minolta line (I never considered Konica to be a real contributor, but more of the funding unit.
Sony has some pretty deep pockets, and are more a threat to everyone except Canon... but maybe even Canon down the line.
Pretty exciting stuff.;)
DonSchap
06-06-2006, 08:47 PM
just Minolta. TAmROn, SIGMA, and Tokina provided and still provide lenses with this mount, also. The range stretches much further that just what SONY... uh, bought. They have more than a head start... they just grabbed 30% of the market, by the gonads...
Stock purchases might be in order... it's on the down tick at 44.6... watch the sales charts in July, when they release. :D
12830
One hundred shares, now... might just go a long way to getting you a new A100 in August. Just a thought... :D
Guess we will have to see what happens with Zeiss, and whether the 9D turns into the a200.
Sonys advantage is a clean slate, but with some history in the Minolta line (I never considered Konica to be a real contributor, but more of the funding unit.
Sony has some pretty deep pockets, and are more a threat to everyone except Canon... but maybe even Canon down the line.
Pretty exciting stuff.;)Is it time for Nikon to break free of the dependence on Sony? Canon has it's own sensor R&D which gives it an advantage over Nikon to begin with...but...now with Sony as a direct competitor...in the picture offering the same sensor technology...there has to be plenty of nervous Nikon executives...
George Riehm
06-06-2006, 09:46 PM
Is it time for Nikon to break free of the dependence on Sony? Canon has it's own sensor R&D which gives it an advantage over Nikon to begin with...but...now with Sony as a direct competitor...in the picture offering the same sensor technology...there has to be plenty of nervous Nikon executives...
Well actually that's not the way it works. Sony Semiconductor is a separate business unit, and sells CCD and CMOS sensors to a lot of different customers, including Canon (not for dSLR's). Usually there are NDA's in place before a project starts, and I'm betting that Nikon pays well for their proprietary designs.
Nikon could ill afford to build and operate their own semiconductor plant, and I'm sure that Canon is starting to face some difficulties on this front as well. For reference, a new fab running .18 micron CMOS on 300mm wafers costs about $2-3 billion. Farming sensors out to other foundries like TSMC is not an option either.
I'm sure that Nikon and Sony have an agreement in place that protects Nikons interests.
Is it time for Nikon to break free of the dependence on Sony? Canon has it's own sensor R&D which gives it an advantage over Nikon to begin with...but...now with Sony as a direct competitor...in the picture offering the same sensor technology...there has to be plenty of nervous Nikon executives...
Good point. However there's a lot more to a camera than a sensor. For that matter, there's a lot more to a sensor than the sensor. It's a whole computer archetecture with layers of pre-processing and post-processing. Then there's the marketing genious', ergonomic designers, of course lense lineup, reputation, loyal following.
I think Nikon would have trouble if Sony stopped supplying, but otherwise they're not much worse off than the other like-sized players.
When the high ISO samples come through, we'll see. If everything above ISO 400 is trash, it'll fizzle. If it's D200-like, then look out.
I'm sure that Nikon and Sony have an agreement in place that protects Nikons interests.Like Microsoft and Apple had? Or like Microsoft and IBM had? ;)
coldrain
06-07-2006, 03:07 AM
No reason to be worried about Nikon getting sensors from Sony, Sony has always been a reliable parts partner for everyone.
And besides, it is not like Sony is the only image sensor producer, there are many more that would not mind Nikon as customer. Or Canon for that matter.
George Riehm
06-07-2006, 07:12 AM
Like Microsoft and Apple had? Or like Microsoft and IBM had? ;)
This is Japan we are talking about. A different business culture altogether.;)
This is Japan we are talking about. A different business culture altogether.;)Ah...yes...I forgot...they have something there...I think it's called...honor? :D
Ah...yes...I forgot...they have something there...I think it's called...honor? :D
I worked at Epson for 13 years. In the beginning, we made HP and IBM printers (dot matrix days). Yet, we competed directly.
I can only say that Epson didn't throw a party when that business went away.
I don't know if the Sensor mfg. is a separate entity at Sony, but honor aside, it simply doesn't make business sense. Nikon has a lot of leverage with Sony to be sure.
George Riehm
06-07-2006, 12:58 PM
I worked at Epson for 13 years. In the beginning, we made HP and IBM printers (dot matrix days). Yet, we competed directly.
I can only say that Epson didn't throw a party when that business went away.
I don't know if the Sensor mfg. is a separate entity at Sony, but honor aside, it simply doesn't make business sense. Nikon has a lot of leverage with Sony to be sure.
Sony Semiconductor (where the sensors are designed and manufactured) is a separate business unit, and competes with the other semi manufacturers in the marketplace even for Sony's internal system division business. In some cases the external semi suppliers have a stronger business relationship with Sony divisions than Sony Semi.
Honor is an odd word here, where I think mutual respect, a common goal, and even camaraderie, would fit better.
Coltess
06-07-2006, 01:42 PM
Canon can NOT make the sensor have IS over the entire lineup, since only APS-C DSLR's can do that because of the reduced image circle. Full frame sensors would get in trouble (ie. sensor moves out of the image circle). Actually you could implement Anti Shake on a full frame camera. All that is needed is for the sensor to be larger than a 35mm frame by whatever measure that the sensor can move in a given direction. Granted the camera would then have to crop the image and it would be a "waste" of sensor area, but it could be done.
coldrain
06-07-2006, 02:07 PM
Actually you could implement Anti Shake on a full frame camera. All that is needed is for the sensor to be larger than a 35mm frame by whatever measure that the sensor can move in a given direction. Granted the camera would then have to crop the image and it would be a "waste" of sensor area, but it could be done.
uhmm... that does not make much sense. It is not the sensor that needs to be larger at all. The pixels need to move "with the moving image". You do not have to crop, just make sure the pixels remain under the image during exposure time. And full frame will then move some pixels out of the 35mm image circle.
uhmm... that does not make much sense. It is not the sensor that needs to be larger at all. The pixels need to move "with the moving image". You do not have to crop, just make sure the pixels remain under the image during exposure time. And full frame will then move some pixels out of the 35mm image circle."Never" is a brave word in the world of today's electronics.
DonSchap
06-07-2006, 03:11 PM
is another.
Let's just see where this "over-sized" sensor winds up, shall we?
You NEVER know. :rolleyes:
Esoterra
06-08-2006, 02:14 PM
If the new Sony DSLR is as good as we think it might be, what about all those people that have D50-D70s or Canon comparable cameras (350, 20D) and lens?? Does it make sense to buy into Sony when they have their lens collections already?? How much of the DSLR market does this group makeup? I can't imagine that Sony is setting their sights low hoping to capitalize on "new DSLR owners" buisness...rather I think they would want the whole cash cow and go for the switch overs! That being said, they will really have to come out with a killer camera to get consumers to switch to Sony. And then there is this issue with lens quality and options. Just my opinion but from first glance... they look pretty cheap. Of course, that says nothing about performance. When I think of Sony, I think of cheap cassette players, DVD Players, and such. Good at all things not great at one thing type of reputation. Lets see how this camera does!
DonSchap
06-08-2006, 03:11 PM
that SONY bought the plant that made and invented this equipment. They didn't do much in the way of inventive research, they simply adopted the entire Konica-Minolta camera manufacturing arm and found a way to change the branding process.
In fact, I'd go as far as to say... the only thing SONY about the A100...
IS THE NAME! :p
:rolleyes:
Esoterra
06-09-2006, 04:44 PM
that SONY bought the plant that made and invented this equipment. They didn't do much in the way of inventive research, they simply adopted the entire Konica-Minolta camera manufacturing arm and found a way to change the branding process.
In fact, I'd go as far as to say... the only thing SONY about the A100...
IS THE NAME! :p
:rolleyes:
Yehaa... that sums up Sonys marketing approach on most of their markets! And also along the lines of Japenese business....take what somone has already invented... and make it better and more stylish!
George Riehm
06-09-2006, 05:33 PM
that SONY bought the plant that made and invented this equipment. They didn't do much in the way of inventive research, they simply adopted the entire Konica-Minolta camera manufacturing arm and found a way to change the branding process.
In fact, I'd go as far as to say... the only thing SONY about the A100...
IS THE NAME! :p
:rolleyes:
... well, maybe the 10MP sensor... and the processor... and the new firmware... And they seem to be adding some Zeiss pro grade glass to the collection. Again, too bad they couldn't have included the nifty laser focus system from the 7xx and 8xx families. Maybe on the alpha 200 (modified 9D).
AllanMarcus
06-11-2006, 11:35 PM
Sheesh, we all know Sony is just getting started in the dSLR business. Yes, the A100 is logical evolution of the 5D. This is not unlike the Rebel 350xt replaced the 300. Nikon is still on first gen for low end stuff, but the D50 might be considered second gen off of the D70. All are good cameras.
$900 MSRP for the camera is not too odd. The D50 lists for $720 and the 350XT for $799. The A100 MSRP is $900, which is <$200 more. Buy one IS/VR lens and you save that and possibly more.
The major "odd" part about Sony's pricing to me is their lenses. Hard to tell until we see street prices, but they should be less than their IS/VR counter parts because there is no need for IS/VR. We will have to see. Also, we sill need to wait at least a year to see if Sony can make SSM practical and affordable.
As for the market to sell into, well that's easy. They are selling first to people with no dSLR; probably people with Sony P&S cameras. The dSLR switcher falls into two categories: the one with no extra lens (easy to sell to when the "old" camera is too "old" and the one with many lenses. The many lenses person is obviously much harder to get to switch.
Bottom line, there is still a ton of space in the dSLR market. There is some room for competition too. To me, Nikon and Canon don't need to worry as much as Pentax and Olympus. Still, no one wants to have Sony set their sites on them, although Sony completely failed to unseat the iPod. Then again, no one has come close to that.
Just my 2 cents,
Allan
jeisner
06-12-2006, 02:07 AM
Bottom line, there is still a ton of space in the dSLR market. There is some room for competition too. To me, Nikon and Canon don't need to worry as much as Pentax and Olympus.
mmm, I don't think Canon has to overly 'worry', but I think Sony is more going after the Canon/Nikon market than Pentax (or maybe even Oly)... As you said most people buying this camera are first time SLR users, who generally go Canon/Nikon anyway.. I don't know about Oly but the vast majority of Pentax DSLR owners I know are ex pentax SLR owners or have dual systems, (ie my best friend has a 20d and a large Canon L glass collection but also is buying a K100d and pancakes/limiteds for a compact DSLR kit.. I know a few people with both Canon and Pentax kits) Off topic: This niche is Pentax's best possibility of making any sort of success these days IMHO, too many big fish ;-)
What I find interesting about the A100 is the dropping of the top LCD (or back second LCD for Canon).. This is the first DSLR I have noticed to drop this feature of the film days and I wonder if it will become a trend (to be honest I hope not) but for the P&S crowd moving into DSLR, I am sure most don't care/know anyway..
some guy
06-12-2006, 12:37 PM
When I think Sony I think Playstation and TVs... maybe Aibo too. People move out of one way when they see you carrying a Canon and Red-ringed L lens at an event. Heck sometimes people will ask you which publisher are you with. Try that with a Sony. No body gives a crap. :)
When I think Sony I think Playstation and TVs... maybe Aibo too. People move out of one way when they see you carrying a Canon and Red-ringed L lens at an event. Heck sometimes people will ask you which publisher are you with. Try that with a Sony. No body gives a crap. :)Yeah Baby! Status! Clout!:D
Watch it though. Remember what happened with the cheap "Made in Japan" label. Used to mean "El Cheapo".
You're right though, that Canon red ring does command respect. :rolleyes:
George Riehm
06-12-2006, 03:07 PM
mmm, I don't think Canon has to overly 'worry', but I think Sony is more going after the Canon/Nikon market than Pentax (or maybe even Oly)... As you said most people buying this camera are first time SLR users, who generally go Canon/Nikon anyway.. I don't know about Oly but the vast majority of Pentax DSLR owners I know are ex pentax SLR owners or have dual systems, (ie my best friend has a 20d and a large Canon L glass collection but also is buying a K100d and pancakes/limiteds for a compact DSLR kit.. I know a few people with both Canon and Pentax kits) Off topic: This niche is Pentax's best possibility of making any sort of success these days IMHO, too many big fish ;-)
What I find interesting about the A100 is the dropping of the top LCD (or back second LCD for Canon).. This is the first DSLR I have noticed to drop this feature of the film days and I wonder if it will become a trend (to be honest I hope not) but for the P&S crowd moving into DSLR, I am sure most don't care/know anyway..
The 5D/7D did not have an info LCD either... so they weren't dropped... they just weren't added.;)
jeisner
06-12-2006, 03:16 PM
The 5D/7D did not have an info LCD either... so they weren't dropped... they just weren't added.;)
Ahh OK, thanks, I never noticed (never really used one)...
jbl4750
06-12-2006, 04:01 PM
When I think Sony I think Playstation and TVs... maybe Aibo too. People move out of one way when they see you carrying a Canon and Red-ringed L lens at an event. Heck sometimes people will ask you which publisher are you with. Try that with a Sony. No body gives a crap. :)
Funny I didnt get noticed until we started hireing out the Sony DSR-300AP DV CAMs and other Pro Sony gear and I have 500G + invested in post production tools alot of it sony, most Cams @ Broadcast level are sony, when I think of Sony I dont think Playstation just good solid Pro hardware. Look up out of consumer not down to the playground ;)
George Riehm
06-12-2006, 05:11 PM
Ahh OK, thanks, I never noticed (never really used one)...
It's one of the things I didn't like, until I tried a 7D (being a creature of habit) and it is a little cumbersome sometimes, but the info LCD function is diplayed when the camera is not doing anything else, and would be blank anyway, so it's not bad, and very easy to read, especially with all of the controls easily accessable via switches vs. menu options. This may have a downside in power consumption as a monochrome info LCD consumes very little power vs. a 2.5" color LCD.
That said, I still prefer a monochrome info LCD.;)
some guy
06-12-2006, 05:46 PM
Funny I didnt get noticed until we started hireing out the Sony DSR-300AP DV CAMs and other Pro Sony gear and I have 500G + invested in post production tools alot of it sony, most Cams @ Broadcast level are sony, when I think of Sony I dont think Playstation just good solid Pro hardware. Look up out of consumer not down to the playground ;)
You must think Sony Xplods are pro speakers too. :D
Echoing what you wrote, when one look at Canon camera products, people associate it as pro hardware. Just watch World Cup and you can see a row of White lenses situated right next to the side lines. That is instant marketing that Canon didn't even pay for advertising. Buy into the system not a camera. ;)
Ultimately, I hope the A100 will be a success. It just bodes well for us consumers.
George Riehm
06-12-2006, 10:57 PM
You must think Sony Xplods are pro speakers too. :D
Echoing what you wrote, when one look at Canon camera products, people associate it as pro hardware. Just watch World Cup and you can see a row of White lenses situated right next to the side lines. That is instant marketing that Canon didn't even pay for advertising. Buy into the system not a camera. ;)
Ultimately, I hope the A100 will be a success. It just bodes well for us consumers.
Why would you demean the character and input from jbl4750, who obviously has some experience in professional video equipment, by using a put-down in an area having nothing to do with photography? Really uncalled for.
I would be willing to bet that there are very few, if any, non-series 1 Canons being used on the World Cup sidelines. And take my word for it, the average person doesn't have a clue that those are Canon lenses, nor do they care, so the advertising value is... what?
cwphoto
06-13-2006, 12:57 AM
You must think Sony Xplods are pro speakers too. :D
Echoing what you wrote, when one look at Canon camera products, people associate it as pro hardware. Just watch World Cup and you can see a row of White lenses situated right next to the side lines. That is instant marketing that Canon didn't even pay for advertising. Buy into the system not a camera. ;)
Ultimately, I hope the A100 will be a success. It just bodes well for us consumers.
If anyone's going to threaten Canon & Nikon (if you want you can include Leica in that list but their market share is quite small) in the pro space it's the new Sony.
By using the legacy KM mount they already have some nice pro glass - obviously not the breadth and depth of the two established players but at least if Sony want to go after the big end of town (and I'm not entirely convinced they will) the investment required is not as huge as say Panasonic or Samsung.
This new body looks middle of the road and is obviously not a pro tool, but at least they have like half a lens system in place already should they decide to pursue the pro market with a suitable camera body.
Rambler358
06-14-2006, 06:54 PM
Will Sony ever learn?
Maybe it's in the Sony designer handbook, "get'em on the accessories, never share our customers, everything proprietary".
Regarding the hotshoe - Sony's keeping their existing KM customers very happy, and providing an excellent upgrade path by using existing accessories. And - the KM hotshoe is arguably better then the ISO equivalents.
DonSchap
06-14-2006, 09:47 PM
went ballistic when K-M started that proprietary hot shoe nonsense. Most saw it as a "marketing ploy"... not really anything other than that. There still is a lot of ill-will toward that decision, by camera owners and store owners.
I still reel at the idea of having two flash systems for my film-based Minoltas. In fact, I finally tossed the newer ones... in order to save money. LOL.
My conversion to Canon was more as a revolt to this kind of stupidity... in my own way. K-M didn't let me down, either... more mismanagement and malfeasance landed them right into the hands of the SONY sharks.
We are where we are... ah me. (Sigh) :rolleyes:
Anyway... there is a converter stump (flash shoe adapter) that can be used to adapt the flash. They're a little hard to find, but they do exist. The Minolta FS-1100 would allow a standard hot-shoe TTL-flash to be placed atop the SONY A100 and operated. What functions that may not work are not clear, at this time. The adapter is only about $30, if you can locate one.
"This company will self-destruct... in five years" (Don Schap, circa 2000) Good luck, Agent Phelps.... fffssssssstttttttt... gone!
pagnamenta
06-14-2006, 10:06 PM
Canon definately gets awesome publicity with the white lenses on the field. I must see a Canon lens every 2 minutes during the world cup. Canon made a great decision to make the lenses white, plus they help keep the lens cool.
Sony definately hasn't made a professional camera. I would never trade it in for my 20D. As stated earlier, you buy into a system, and that system is Canon.
cwphoto
06-14-2006, 10:45 PM
Sony definately hasn't made a professional camera. I would never trade it in for my 20D. As stated earlier, you buy into a system, and that system is Canon.
Sure it ain't no professional camera - but neither's the 20D.
jeisner
06-15-2006, 03:57 AM
Canon made a great decision to make the lenses white, plus they help keep the lens cool.
They have little choice in keeping the flourite cool, you wouldn't appreciate it if they didn't ;-)
Sure it ain't no professional camera - but neither's the 20D.Ah...but thousands of pros use the 20D as their "back-up" body and depend on it to perform day in and day out.
Ah...but thousands of pros use the 20D as their "back-up" body and depend on it to perform day in and day out.
i think CW's point was just that the 20D is not catagorized as a pro level body, NOT that it's unsuitable for pro usage.
George Riehm
06-15-2006, 06:57 AM
They have little choice in keeping the flourite cool, you wouldn't appreciate it if they didn't ;-)
You guys have obviously never lived in the Sonoran desert... in the summer.
Todays high? 113F, but we are on a cooling trend dropping to a bitterly cold 107F tomorrow...
Just wait until summer gets here.;)
Nobody's flourite, white, black, or grey, stays cool in this neck of the desert.:cool:
3 summers here has been a brutal test of camera and lenses.
Update: Only 105F today (brrrr). 111F next week... come-on summer! Were frickin' freezin here Mr. Bigglesworth...
cwphoto
06-15-2006, 07:31 AM
Ah...but thousands of pros use the 20D as their "back-up" body and depend on it to perform day in and day out.
As I'm sure many Sony users will see this new Alpha as suitable back-up if Sony go after the pro market.
George Riehm
06-15-2006, 11:21 AM
As I'm sure many Sony users will see this new Alpha as suitable back-up if Sony go after the pro market.
The a200 (aka 9D) has to be lurking out there somewhere. How long do you think Sony will wait to introduce it?
As a side note: Maybe they're waiting to complete development on the 24 x 36 CMOS (or CCD) sensor... Nah, they wouldn't do that. Would they?
some guy
06-15-2006, 12:05 PM
Sony supplies chips to Nikon. Now with Sony entering the dSLR market will they 'cripple' the CCDs to Nikon? Apparently the A100 CCD is similar to the D200 or was it D2h?
As I'm sure many Sony users will see this new Alpha as suitable back-up if Sony go after the pro market.
Wouldn't it make more sense for a backup body to accept the same lenses?
I think "pro system" is what the Sony is not (yet), but somebody with a 20D and $5000 in pro lenses, first off will be getting pro results and secondly, is just a one-item purchase from a completely pro system.
I exaggerate a little; some of those Sony lenses look pretty "pro". Are they weather sealed? Do you think an everyday, in the trenches photographer, would select some of these Sony lenses should they ever come out with a true pro body?
Most of us amatuers dream of, if not becoming entirely pro, doing at least some pro work some day. Or at least matching the pro-quality. Our high-end lens purchases always seem to keep that in mind, as do our brand selection. If Sony overcomes that, they'll win a big part of the amatuer high-end market battle.
George Riehm
06-15-2006, 12:53 PM
Sony supplies chips to Nikon. Now with Sony entering the dSLR market will they 'cripple' the CCDs to Nikon? Apparently the A100 CCD is similar to the D200 or was it D2h?
Sony supplies sensors to everybody. Canon only makes their own CMOS sensors for their dSLR's, and also buy 2/3" and smaller CCD's from Sony, (and other sources) for their all-in-ones.
It bears repeating that Sony Semiconductor is a separate business unit from other Sony business units, and Nikon, Pentax, and even Canon are important customers. If they go away Sony Semi is in a world of hurt.
The D200 is a 10MP NMOS CCD, as is the alpha a100. I'm sure that the two are very similar, if not identical.
The D2h is a 4.1MP CCD, and the D2X(s) (which is probably what you were thinking of) is a 12MP CMOS imager.
cwphoto
06-15-2006, 05:34 PM
Wouldn't it make more sense for a backup body to accept the same lenses?
I think "pro system" is what the Sony is not (yet), but somebody with a 20D and $5000 in pro lenses, first off will be getting pro results and secondly, is just a one-item purchase from a completely pro system.
I exaggerate a little; some of those Sony lenses look pretty "pro". Are they weather sealed? Do you think an everyday, in the trenches photographer, would select some of these Sony lenses should they ever come out with a true pro body?
Most of us amatures dream of, if not becoming entirely pro, doing at least some pro work some day. Or at least matching the pro-quality. Our high-end lens purchases always seem to keep that in mind, as do our brand selection. If Sony overcomes that, they'll win a big part of the amature high-end market battle.
Gees Vich, it's spelt: "amateur"!!!
Not sure what you are getting at - Sony have some pretty decent pro lenses:
* 70-200mm f/2.8
* 300mm f/2.8
* 85mm f/1.4
* 35mm f/1.4
* 135mm f/1.8
And I'm sure more will come. In fact the similarities between Sony's new venture and Canon abandoning FD for EF back in the late eighties are quite striking for me - and we all know what happened there.
Weather sealing is over-rated in the overall scheme of things. We have been photographing now for for over a century and yet we were still able to take photographs in adverse weather prior to the advent of weather-sealing.
Nice to have but not a deal-breaker for most pros.
Gees Vich, it's spelt: "amateur"!!!
Not sure what you are getting at - Sony have some pretty decent pro lenses:
* 70-200mm f/2.8
* 300mm f/2.8
* 85mm f/1.4
* 35mm f/1.4
* 135mm f/1.8
And I'm sure more will come. In fact the similarities between Sony's new venture and Canon abandoning FD for EF back in the late eighties are quite striking for me - and we all know what happened there.
Weather sealing is over-rated in the overall scheme of things. We have been photographing now for for over a century and yet we were still able to take photographs in adverse weather prior to the advent of weather-sealing.
Nice to have but not a deal-breaker for most pros.
(thanks for the spelling lesson - my nemesis - always appreciated - noted and corrected)
You're a pro CW so of course have a better feel for these matters....
Weather sealing: When I go to the ball game and see those huge whites along the sidelines, and see the results occassionally of fantastic stills of muddy player, I have to imagine that those pros would hate to be risking sure rain damage in the everyday course of things. The various rain-protection-devices must be a hassle. Maybe a studio photographer would have a different take.
Pro lineup: Pros in any field go for the tried and true, even if others are touted as being equal. In my field, I purchase IBM servers, Cisco and HP routers, and I don't just buy a service agreement because the price is less. I can't afford to find out the hard way that I decided wrong. Save 10K in servers and loose $300K in business because the servers messed up.
Also; they have a half dozen lenses that look (and possibly will prove) to be pro lenses. Not much of a choice.
That said, I did say "yet".
Still; a 2nd camera that uses a different lens lineup just doesn't seem logical. Maybe some odd purchase opportunity can make it come about, but why would you buy a Sony Body + Lens instead of just a 30D.
As I'm sure many Sony users will see this new Alpha as suitable back-up if Sony go after the pro market.Nikon and Canon have decades of service to the pro SLR market...I don't think Sony will develop that kind of cred anytime soon...but I could be wrong....but not likely ;) . When I see most wedding photogs using Sonys, and the sports photogs at the Super Bowl using Sonys and others who generate income through photography using Sonys, then you can say "See?" Until then, it's a marketing department fantasy...
George Riehm
06-16-2006, 06:52 AM
Nikon and Canon have decades of service to the pro SLR market...I don't think Sony will develop that kind of cred anytime soon...but I could be wrong....but not likely ;) . When I see most wedding photogs using Sonys, and the sports photogs at the Super Bowl using Sonys and others who generate income through photography using Sonys, then you can say "See?" Until then, it's a marketing department fantasy...
All it takes is a dozen well known photographers to jump ship. It would take a good camera system (like Minolta), some super lenses (like Zeiss) and about $200K a year per photographer... Maybe an investment of $8-10 million for 2 years including hardware. A virtual drop in the bucket.
I don't remember reading that Sony had laid-off the (Konica) Minolta engineers or shuttered the manufacturing facilities. This isn't a new venture for Sony. They are pretty well know at sports venues worldwide for their professional video equipment, and it wouldn't take much to parlay that to professional still equipment. Don't underestimate the power of Sony's marketing department. It has made them the number one consumer electronics company in the world.
But you are right that it remains to be seen what they actually do with this group.
jeisner
06-16-2006, 08:07 AM
It has made them the number one consumer electronics company in the world.
I thought that title was owned by Samsung these days???
All it takes is a dozen well known photographers to jump ship.That's as likely as a dozen oil shieks jumping ship and driving Chryslers...:p
George Riehm
06-16-2006, 11:57 AM
That's as likely as a dozen oil shieks jumping ship and driving Chryslers...:p
We shall see. It may end up that Sony has no such aspirations.
It's not like buying endorsments have never been done in the photo industry. And, of course, Sony would have to present a really competitive product along with $$$ in compensation.
But never say never.;)
George Riehm
06-16-2006, 11:59 AM
I thought that title was owned by Samsung these days???
I'll have to look this up, but I'm pretty sure that Sony still holds the title.
Update: Yup, you are correct. As a corporation Samsung is larger. Sony is 5th behind IBM, HP, and Matsushita (Panasonic, JVC, and National). But I think that Sony is still the leader in actual consumer electronics...
http://cdn.hoovers.com/images/i/landingpgs/adsales/groundbreaking/ConsumerElectronics_CompLandscape.xls
some guy
06-16-2006, 04:42 PM
there's a difference b/t making good electronics and just plain selling more. Sony is good on certain areas. I will never touch any Sony sound systems nor even bother with their Clie PDAs.... or dare I say Vaios?
In terms of game console, the XBOX has gained alot of ground and with that new fandangled XBOX 360, Sony's new PS3 better be something revolutionary. As an electronic giant yes they have presence, but they are also facing flak from all sides. And they can only divert their limited resources to certain areas only.
Having said that I have a Sony TV. hehehehe :D Didn't knew better back then.
If netting the enthusiast-pro photographers is to just buy off a few pro-photographers I am sure alot of company would've done that by now. Judging from just the World Cup Canon/Nikon shooters at the side lines, Sony would have to 'restructure' Minolta's staff for that. :) It'll be fun to see how things pan out.
It's just sinking in for me. This will have IS.
Following discussions on other forums, the Cannonites aren't much interested in having in-camera IS. Besides being concerned about Canon's engineering hurtles (I don't really get it because now 2 others have done it), but also a fear that it won't be as good as In-Lens IS.
Also; thinking is that Canon still has to recoup lots of engineering costs.
Lastly; there's a lot of film shooters using IS lenses.
Now I'm not here to renew this discussion here, but I think that will play out with the Sony.
If:
1. the CCD is what we all expect (excellent IQ and high ISO performance),
2. flash sync is accordingly better (1/500th - don't know if this model has that but the next could),
3. IS is built in,
4. and the lens lineup has some exoticly amazing stuff (as we all know the Zeiss connection can produce).
That's an inticing combo. Think of it, Zeiss lens, IS, 1/500th flash sync, great CCD. For someone doing low-light shots a lot, this could sound attractive. Even for amatures, it'll tip the scales for some - maybe many.
Hmmm. Still mulling it over .... hmmmm. This'll be interesting!
coldrain
06-23-2006, 01:15 PM
Ok, no idea how often I have to explain this, but here we go.
You can not let a full frame sensor move so that you can have in-body IS. The sensor of a Sony/Pentax/KM has to be able to move a few milimeters in every direction. This will mean the sensor will actually move out of the image circle on a full frame 35mm SLR.
This is a BIG reason to have IS lenses. Else you need a totally different line of lenses for the 1.6x crop or 1.3x crop cameras, it will get confusing as hell.
There are technical advantages keeping it in the lens, and with this FF problem and also of course patent issues, Canon and Nikon will probably stay with IS in lenses. Of course IS in lenses will go down in price in future.
Ok, no idea how often I have to explain this, but here we go.
You can not let a full frame sensor move so that you can have in-body IS. The sensor of a Sony/Pentax/KM has to be able to move a few milimeters in every direction. This will mean the sensor will actually move out of the image circle on a full frame 35mm SLR.
This is a BIG reason to have IS lenses. Else you need a totally different line of lenses for the 1.6x crop or 1.3x crop cameras, it will get confusing as hell.
There are technical advantages keeping it in the lens, and with this FF problem and also of course patent issues, Canon and Nikon will probably stay with IS in lenses. Of course IS in lenses will go down in price in future.
Cold, you are so quick with your absolute answeres. Honestly, some imagination can resolve all issues. Its the nay-sayers unwilling to be open minded that are usually, in the end, in err. True, we need to recognize the difficulties and confront them, but they are not insurmountable. If a technical problem (like the image circle thing) arises, then deal with it - or go around it.
Off hand, if you want IS on a FF camera, then simply crop the image when IS is on. So what if it's now a 1.3 crop while IS is on - it'll get the sweeter spot of the lens. Actually, on-demand cropping isn't a bad feature all by itself.
Second, suggested by someone else here, is a TC with IS. Sure, it would need to talk to the lens. I don't know if this has some inherent reason for not working (like the moving IS element must be at the center focal point - probably).
Third; I'm not saying to put it on FF. They have a whole crop of 1.6 cameras.
Bottom line is, the competition will have it soon, albiet on cropped cameras. It can be lived without, but its a major factor in many people's decision process.
You have a fine mind and buckets of knowlege, just that nay-saying. Umm, you been hanging out with that horse Andy was talking about? OK, bad pun. Juuuust messin' wit ya!
some guy
06-23-2006, 02:17 PM
1. the CCD is what we all expect (excellent IQ and high ISO performance),
If it's like the D200 ISO performance, then I wouldn't expect too much at over 400. It's no CMOS. ;)
Somehow I really doubt that the new Sony/Carl Zeiss is all that what it should be. There are some low rent CZ lens that are contracted to Cosina. I won't be surprised these will be one of those too if pricing is to be palatable to the general consumers.
But has to concede that it does have some nice features.
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