Need a replacement for Sony F717

[tompagenet]

Hi guys

I’d really appreciate some help. On Thursday my F717 was stolen. I really liked the camera – the picture quality was, in my opinion superb, and the zoom/manual focus ring at the end of the lens was a particularly favourite feature of mine.

Now I have to decide upon a replacement. Here’s the list (alphabetically):

Canon EOS-300D/Digital Rebel
Nikon 8800
Sony F828

Are there any that I should be including that I’m not?

Here’s my pros and cons on each of them:

Canon:
Pros: D-SLR, huge CMOS sensor, good reviews for image quality
Cons: Slow lens included, low zoom range (28-88) and the canon 88-320 lens is another £200 that I don’t have, “only” 6MP, rather naff AF assist method

Nikon:
Pros: 10x zoom, Nikkor lens, image stabilisation
Cons: No reviews yet! Not seen any images either! Anyone know of any galleries? No zoom or focus ring. May also suffer from noise and purple problems

Sony:
Pros: 7x Zoom, Carl-Zeiss Lens, loved my 717, manual focus & zoom rings
Cons: DCRP and DPReview both complain about purple fringing and noise.

I’ve looked at the gallery for the F828 at dpreview:

http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/sonydscf828_samples/

And I must say I think the images there are rather good. I would dearly love to see some info on how the 8800 performs. I know SLRs are the best, and I know having a large CMOS sensor is lovely, but I can’t afford £200 worth of lens, nor do I very much want to carry another lens around, but I do like my telephoto pictures.

Image quality is very important to me, but I really am fixed at a budget of £600 ish – for people in the US that basically equates to any of the cameras above (the Canon would include the 28-88 lens).

Any comments would be helpful – I really am feeling a bit stuck – should I just try and buy another F717? Is that a little short-sighted?

Many thanks, Tom

[John Tropi]

Sorry about your 717 - theft is the reason I am looking for a new camera too!

I'm not qualified to offer advice other than to mention that a replacement f717 can still be obtained, new, in UK for around £440.
It's on my list of possibles, only held back a little by the price of proprietary Sony Memory Sticks, which offsets its very reasonabe price to some degree and that, although its LCD tilts, it won't fold inward for protection.
But if you really liked yours, then there is a lot to be said for a straight replacement.
I will follow this thread with great interest!

[John_Reed]

Hi guys

I’d really appreciate some help. On Thursday my F717 was stolen. I really liked the camera – the picture quality was, in my opinion superb, and the zoom/manual focus ring at the end of the lens was a particularly favourite feature of mine.

Now I have to decide upon a replacement. Here’s the list (alphabetically):

Canon EOS-300D/Digital Rebel
Nikon 8800
Sony F828

Are there any that I should be including that I’m not?
At least in America, the FZ20 is quite a bit cheaper than your choices, and although it has "only" 5MP, (a trait shared with your dearly-departed Sony), I think its image quality hangs in pretty well when compared to at least the 8800 and F828, particularly at higher ISOs. AND, it has a big manual-focusing ring on the lens barrel. What more could you want? As for the Canon dReb, it puts its pants on "one leg at a time" too. Check this (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1760) recent thread comparing that camera to the FZ20.

[D70FAN]

At least in America, the FZ20 is quite a bit cheaper than your choices, and although it has "only" 5MP, (a trait shared with your dearly-departed Sony), I think its image quality hangs in pretty well when compared to at least the 8800 and F828, particularly at higher ISOs. AND, it has a big manual-focusing ring on the lens barrel. What more could you want? As for the Canon dReb, it puts its pants on "one leg at a time" too. Check this (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1760) recent thread comparing that camera to the FZ20.

Ya' know John. That is a one man show on the DReb vs. the FZ20. If you look through the galleries of pictures taken with the DReb they are superb. And I hear nothing but kudos from pros using it as a backup to their higher end 1Ds and MK II's. That said, they all agree that you have to do a little fiddling with the metering. dSLR's are definately not point and shoots.

I think the advantages of the FZ20 include ease of use, which cannot be said for even the best dSLR. Had Brian taken the time to learn the DReb It may have come out differently. Many of the original shots with my D70 were gawd-awfull, and I was a little miffed that I could get better shots with my old 990 right out of the box. But once I realized that even in "auto" you need to check some settings it was like night and day.

You know I'm a fan of the FZ series, but using Brian as an example may be a little over the top. As I've said before, if I didn't own a dSLR the FZ20 would be in my camera bag.

[John_Reed]

You know I'm a fan of the FZ series, but using Brian as an example may be a little over the top. As I've said before, if I didn't own a dSLR the FZ20 would be in my camera bag.George, I wasn't trying to say that the dReb was a piece of crap, just that it isn't perfect. And more than just Brian's post, there was another thread posted here the other day lamenting the dReb's tendency to under-expose, and how sometimes there weren't many things you could do about it. The dReb is, after all, a purposely-hamstrung (by Canon) version of their 10D, so it's probably not as well-featured as, for example, your D70, which I regard as a "no-compromise" product by Nikon.

[Terracotta]

Other SLR-Like compacts in the same kind of area are the Minolta A2 (I had absolutely no focus problems with the A2 I borrowed) & Canon PRO1. Personally I work out what compact SLR-like you wanted then compared the dRebel to that in a 'shoot out' situation, as the dReb is a very interesting animal, and work out if the extra premium is worth it.


Canon:
Pros: D-SLR, huge CMOS sensor, good reviews for image quality
Cons: Slow lens included, low zoom range (28-88) and the canon 88-320 lens is another £200 that I don’t have, “only” 6MP, rather naff AF assist method

A few notes about the dReb, I think after a weekend with a Sony F828, Minolta A2, Nikon 8800 & Canon PRO1 & 300D I can say that the dReb has more effective resolution in most circumstances compared to the 8MP compacts & as for zoom there's a Tamron 80-210 for 75£ at Jessops, though how good it is is another matter, but also you might be able to pick up a 300D body w/Sigma 28-105 (45~168 w/crop) with a bit of negotiation for the same price as the 300D + kit lens or with the Sigma 28-135 (45~210mm) macro, don't be put off by the macro bit read it as ultra-close focus, for about 650£. Also lens reviews are based on SLR camera reviews, quite often a lens that is much better than a compact lens is rubbished in reviews due to the competition being a lot better.

[tompagenet]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Terracotta, interesting info on the lenses for the EOS-300D. The trouble is I think I'd like to keep the kit lens at least, because it has the wide angle - 28.8mm equiv. Starting at 45 doesn't really appeal. Again, I'm really at the edge of my budget with the 300D lens kit and a decent-sized CF card. Both the Nikon 8800 and the Sonfy F828 are cheaper even with memory card considerations.

I'm interested to hear about the Lumix FZ20 - it's quite cheap, big zoom. Disapointed by the low-res EVF and lack of gain increase in the dark - that wasn't a problem on the F717 because of the night framing. The noise also looks as bad as the F828, although the purple fringing looks better. Should I expect the images that come from the FZ20 to have the same level of detail as the Sony F717?

Thanks guys - you're all great!

[John Tropi]

Applogies for veering slightly off topic, but it might be interesting for all . . .

Terracotta
After your weekend with those cameras, I would be very interested to see any comparative comments about the F828 and Pro-1, which are both on my short list. :

[Terracotta]

After your weekend with those cameras, I would be very interested to see any comparative comments about the F828 and Pro-1, which are both on my short list. :

Hum, okay. The reviews @ dpreview are fairly accurate where these cameras are concerned from my experiences, what I would add is this -

Ignoring the Minolta A2 (which if I was going to get a SLR-like would be my camera of choice btw) the PRO1 was the camera of choice for the weekend, it came to the hand easily in weight and size & I almost instantly knew where the controls were. Quite the opposite for the F828, it was in fact the first camera I've ever out-right rejected on pure ergonomics, it's big, very big, making it very fiddly to get the framing right. Not only that but for some reason I couldn't get my head around the control placement of this camera I was always taking it away from my eye to look at the control buttons. Sony's tilting body/lens thing is no way near even the A2's flip out LCD let alone the PRO1's swivel job. I found the menus nicer on the Canon to.

I'm going to stick my neck out here, I'd say that the PRO1 has by far the best in-camera processing, that is to say not a lot of it, I found the PRO1s images where by far the easiest to correct mostly afforded by the lack of camera correction, the downside is it can take a bit more post-processing. The Sony's output however was a total pain to work with, often finding that removing the problem left a worse image than leaving it in.

EDIT:
1) The Sony knocked the PRO1 for 6 in terms of Zoom & AF control.

2) I'm an Minolta S414 user, so I think I've got my head around the Minolta thinking. Thus I very quickly found that like my S414 the A2 took a fair bit of driving and really did need to be 'coaxed' into giving the best results but once you learnt how to drive it it's great, and yeah the AF SUCKS I never got a perfectly focused image with AF, but I found using the AF then over-ride I was consistently getting sharper images than any other SLR-likes.

[Adamzx3]

I am also looking into getting a new camera...I looked at the f717, f828 , and FZ20 the most....I threw out the f828 because of the cost, the f717 had better quality (not by much) than the fz20 but felt odd and also used those memory sticks, The FZ20 when used with Neat Image or noise ninja it produced a very nice image and was around the same as a f717 or even better (as far as noise and overall image quality) I ruled the F717 after trying the neat image program with sample FZ20 images....If you need more MP then I might go with the F828.

check out www.neatimage.com

[tompagenet]

Are there any production model reviews or good photo galleries for the Nikon 8800? It tempts me in some ways, although I think I'll miss my F717 whatever I choose!

[tompagenet]

I'm still trying to decide between the F828, the Nikon 8800 and the EOS-300D. I went into the camera shop today; they don't have the NIkon 8800, but they did have the other two. I tried them both - I do love the SLR what you see is what you get, although the autofocus (at least in the lighting conditions of the shop) didn't seem very good on the 300D, and the white balance seemed worse.

We loaded up the images on an in-store computer and the purple fringing was clearly there. I thought that this pretty much ruled out the F828, but then I've got home and thought about this a bit - PF affects pictures particualrly at wide angles and large apertures. The Sony instantly stands at a "disadvantage" here - the sony has a wopping great F2.0 aperture, but the Canon kit lens only goes to F3.5.

I looked at the chromatic aboration comparisons on dpreview.com - the Canon picture:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos300d/page17.asp

is taken at F3.5, whereas the Sony image:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/page16.asp

is taken at F2.0.

There is a comparison between the two cameras on the site - look here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/page19.asp

Again the comparison is less than fair - Sony is at F5.0 and the Canon is at F8.0 However it's a toss up which one looks worse on the silver spoons. I'd say the F828 is *just* worse, but not but very much.

Am I just talking rubbish here - it does seem to me that the comparisons aren't very fair - the F828 is a way faster lens than the kit lens from the 300D. Surely when you were in bright sunlight you could just set the lens to F8.0 or so - the foil torture test shows you that this will result in almost PF-free pictures. The 300D seems to have its bad moments with PF, see:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS300D/Samples/Fringing/030826-1449-25.jpg

(top-right corner).

Oh - and if anyone knows of any reputable reviews of the 8800 I would be very interested...

Thanks, Tom

[John Tropi]

I had a feeling that this thread would prove interesting and it has!
Thanks for the comments, terra cotta, and others. :)

Tom, if you are interested, I know that Jessops have at least one F717 in stock at £440 - I had my little paws on it yesterday. I have to say I found it a little uncomfortable in the right hand, just not 'easy' to hold naturally, even with the barrel naturally supported in the left. But I guess that's personal to the shape of one's mitts!

Ubfortunately I can't locate an FZ20 for a personal experience within 150 miles of home and am still sitting on the fence, reading everything I can find and head swirling with facts, figures and opinions!
Keep up the good work here guys - this is excellent stuff for the undecided!