PDA

View Full Version : Lumix FZ20 vs. Canon Digital Rebel



BryanMsi
10-24-2004, 02:58 PM
I have been a amateur photographer for a few years, the last of which has been with the Canon Digital Rebel as my camera of choice. After reading all the reviews raving about the Canon quality I was starting to think I was crazy...the Rebel never really lived up to the hype for me. For one, its metering system is severely (and intentionally) limited by Canon and it tends to underexpose pictures. For another, it never seems to produce the "tack sharp" photos I was expecting (I will admin to not owning any "L" lenses, but a Canon 28-135 IS, the 18-55 Kit lens, and a Sigma 28-300 APO zoom). But when it nails an image, the quality is great...

So I bit the bullet earlier today and bought the Panasonic Lumix FZ20 – Circuit City had it for $539 plus a free bag and battery (worth $100). My thought was that the Lumix would serve as a "little brother" to the Canon for casual photos (vacations, museums, etc.) where I don't want to lug around the rather large dSLR.

For grins, I decided to compare the two cameras directly. Let me just say that I was shocked to see the results.

I took some sample photos for comparison and was hoping the quality of the Lumix would come close enough to the famous Canon sensor that I wouldn’t be disappointed with the Lumix. Instead, I found the Lumix consistently besting the Canon shots – both in exposure metering and in overall quality!

:eek:

You can see these shots at the following address (I'll try to post full size images if anyone is interested):

http://homepage.mac.com/bmacdonald/Public/PhotoAlbum31.html

For starters, the Canon consistently got the exposure wrong – 2/3 of the shots I took were underexposed which is not all that unusual for this camera. The first shot (Canon vs. Lumix 1) shows both cameras at their exposure defaults and clearly the Canon shot is badly underexposed (the Canon is on the left). The Lumix consistently metered the shots correctly.

But, I adjusted the Canon using my handheld light meter so I could get comparable pictures.

Canon vs. Lumix 2-4 show shots taken with the cameras on tripods approx 2 inches away from each other with the same composition (or as close as I could come). I put them side-by-side in Photoshop with no adjustments. You be the judge…

Oh – image stabilization is off on the Lumix, and I was using a Sigma 28-300 lens on the Canon (which may be part of the problem, but that’s comparable to the lens on the Lumix, at least in terms of focal length).

That Leica lens really seems to rock! A Canon lens comparable to the f2.8 435mm image stabilized zoom built into the Lumix would cost thousands of dollars.

The details
Canon
Sigma 28-300 APO zoom
Aperture priority – 5.6
Exposure compensation +1.6 or + 2.0 (except shot #1, that shot is +0)
Metering – not selectable (default)
ISO 100
White Balance - Cloudy
High quality JPG
Approx. zoom – 300mm (x 1.6 = 480)
Image Stabilization – N/A

Lumix
Leica 35-435mm (equivalent)
Aperture priority – 5.6
Exposure compensation – none
Metering – Center-weighted evaluative
ISO 80
White balance – Cloudy
High quality JPG
Approx zoom – 435mm
Image Stabilization - off

Surprising results, to say the least. I expected the Rebel (outside its rather weak metering) to blow away the Lumix and that just didn't happen. I think there are 2 things going on here. First, the Sigma 28-300 APO lens is simply no match for the Leica glass on the Lumix. Second, the Canon's metering doesn't do the sensor justice. Put both together and you have murky, soft images vs. properly exposed and tack sharp images.

If someone wants to send me a Canon L lens, I'd be happy to repeat the test! :D

-Bryan

Nytmair
10-24-2004, 03:03 PM
wow, very interesting! Now i don't feel too bad that I can't afford the rebel and instead am getting the FZ20. Thanks for the comparisons!

Those are pretty suprising results :eek:

-Dan

John_Reed
10-24-2004, 03:21 PM
I have been a amateur photographer for a few years, the last of which has been with the Canon Digital Rebel as my camera of choice. After reading all the reviews raving about the Canon quality I was starting to think I was crazy...the Rebel never really lived up to the hype for me. For one, its metering system is severely (and intentionally) limited by Canon and it tends to underexpose pictures. For another, it never seems to produce the "tack sharp" photos I was expecting (I will admin to not owning any "L" lenses, but a Canon 28-135 IS, the 18-55 Kit lens, and a Sigma 28-300 APO zoom). But when it nails an image, the quality is great...

So I bit the bullet earlier today and bought the Panasonic Lumix FZ20 – Circuit City had it for $539 plus a free bag and battery (worth $100). My thought was that the Lumix would serve as a "little brother" to the Canon for casual photos (vacations, museums, etc.) where I don't want to lug around the rather large dSLR.

For grins, I decided to compare the two cameras directly. Let me just say that I was shocked to see the results.

I took some sample photos for comparison and was hoping the quality of the Lumix would come close enough to the famous Canon sensor that I wouldn’t be disappointed with the Lumix. Instead, I found the Lumix consistently besting the Canon shots – both in exposure metering and in overall quality!

:eek:

You can see these shots at the following address (I'll try to post full size images if anyone is interested):

http://homepage.mac.com/bmacdonald/Public/PhotoAlbum31.html

For starters, the Canon consistently got the exposure wrong – 2/3 of the shots I took were underexposed which is not all that unusual for this camera. The first shot (Canon vs. Lumix 1) shows both cameras at their exposure defaults and clearly the Canon shot is badly underexposed (the Canon is on the left). The Lumix consistently metered the shots correctly.

But, I adjusted the Canon using my handheld light meter so I could get comparable pictures.

Canon vs. Lumix 2-4 show shots taken with the cameras on tripods approx 2 inches away from each other with the same composition (or as close as I could come). I put them side-by-side in Photoshop with no adjustments. You be the judge…

Oh – image stabilization is off on the Lumix, and I was using a Sigma 28-300 lens on the Canon (which may be part of the problem, but that’s comparable to the lens on the Lumix, at least in terms of focal length).

That Leica lens really seems to rock! A Canon lens comparable to the f2.8 435mm image stabilized zoom built into the Lumix would cost thousands of dollars.

The details
Canon
Sigma 28-300 APO zoom
Aperture priority – 5.6
Exposure compensation +1.6 – 2.0 (except shot #1, that shot is +0)
Metering – not selectable (default)
ISO 100
White Balance - Cloudy
High quality JPG
Approx. zoom – 300mm (x 1.6 = 480)
Image Stabilization – N/A

Lumix
Leica 35-435mm (equivalent)
Aperture priority – 5.6
Exposure compensation – none
Metering – Center-weighted evaluative
ISO 80
White balance – Cloudy
High quality JPG
Approx zoom – 435mm
Image Stabilization - off

Surprising results, to say the least. I expected the Rebel (outside its rather weak metering) to blow away the Lumix and that just didn't happen. I think there are 2 things going on here. First, the Sigma 28-300 APO lens is simply no match for the Leica glass on the Lumix. Second, the Canon's metering doesn't do the sensor justice. Put both together and you have murky, soft images vs. properly exposed and tack sharp images.

If someone wants to send me a Canon L lens, I'd be happy to repeat the test! :D

-BryanIt looks like you might be thinking of using the FZ20 as your "mainstay" and the dReb as backup? Thanks for posting your results. The other day someone was lamenting all the Panasonic fanatics on this forum, but your results may put even more wind in our sails! :D

HawkeyeLonewolf
10-24-2004, 04:51 PM
Great pics!

Love the waterfall even if it was shot from a Canon..

Aside: Did you get the $539 deal IN STORE on ONLINE? I need to go claim my price rebate if instore.

Thanks!

lumixfan
10-24-2004, 05:02 PM
Hi:
Nice comparison and very methodically done. Need to get the Panasonic's might known to the public. I saw that in many websites finally they are beginning to acknowledge Panasonic power in ratings. we may be early adopters :)

Regarding the price, how has it dropped to $ 539 so fast. Do they have other rebates also. As the previous poster has asked I am also curious if it is in store price. Then we may be able to get price match. I wonder if CC has price match policy, and till how many days.

BryanMsi
10-24-2004, 05:07 PM
It was $539 as web only, but you can buy online and then pickup at the store. Seems silly that they would make you pay for it online but let you pick it up locally.

If you go to to the following URL:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Panasonic-Lumix--Digital-Camera--DMC-FZ20-/sem/rpsm/oid/98885/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

And add it to your cart, you'll see the price. Don't know if they price match their own web site, but if you bought it less than 14 days ago, you can return it and then order another one on the web (or threaten to - I can't imagine they would force you to do that if they know you're just trying to get the sale price).

But I gotta say - its still a bargain at $600. Just think, you could have invested twice that much in a Rebel...

Rprincess
10-24-2004, 05:40 PM
I just replied on the other forum,
I have been tossing around the idea everyday since Thursday as to which camera to buy. I have read reviews, posted on the forums and still hadn't come up with my answer yet as to which camera to buy, Canon Rebel or the Panasonic FZ20. Well your the info on your thread and the pictures has finally made my decision. I will be buying the FZ20 tomorrow!

For info regarding the price match at CC, I was just in my store this evening and discussed this very issue with the manager who was helping me. I asked him if he would price match their price that was on-line? He asked me what the price was and I told him $539, he went to the computer checked it out and said YES he would match that price. So go get your camera! :D

PS If you buy from CC don't forget to get your rebate for a Free Camera Bag & Battery!

HawkeyeLonewolf
10-24-2004, 05:49 PM
It was $539 as web only, but you can buy online and then pickup at the store. Seems silly that they would make you pay for it online but let you pick it up locally.

If you go to to the following URL:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Panasonic-Lumix--Digital-Camera--DMC-FZ20-/sem/rpsm/oid/98885/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

And add it to your cart, you'll see the price. Don't know if they price match their own web site, but if you bought it less than 14 days ago, you can return it and then order another one on the web (or threaten to - I can't imagine they would force you to do that if they know you're just trying to get the sale price).

But I gotta say - its still a bargain at $600. Just think, you could have invested twice that much in a Rebel...

Threatening to return it will do you no good... You'll be hit with a 15% restocking fee which would eat the $60 savings. I'm calling my store tomorrow per RPrincess' comments and verify they will credit me the $60 in price-match.

Rprincess
10-24-2004, 06:20 PM
Sorry I misunderstood,

When I was in the store today I was considering purchasing the camera. What I understand from this thread is that the camera has already been purchased and you want to get the adjustment. According to CC website they say you have 30 days that if you find it cheaper they will match the price. So it still should apply to your situation. Hope this helps.

wmussatto
10-25-2004, 10:50 AM
I bought my FZ20 at CC in the store. However, I showed them their web price and they matched it. Normally they will price match only othe brick and mortars, but they would match their own price. Look around and see if they are still running the special on the Sandisk Ultra II 512 cards..
BTW: make sure you get the second register tape.. There is a free battery and case from Panasonic, but only if you buy from CC. The register kept spitting out paper and that was a pleasent suprise.
Bill

HawkeyeLonewolf
10-26-2004, 10:17 AM
I bought my FZ20 at CC in the store. However, I showed them their web price and they matched it. Normally they will price match only othe brick and mortars, but they would match their own price. Look around and see if they are still running the special on the Sandisk Ultra II 512 cards..
BTW: make sure you get the second register tape.. There is a free battery and case from Panasonic, but only if you buy from CC. The register kept spitting out paper and that was a pleasent suprise.
Bill

Bought mine 10 days ago... Called CC today and they said they'd do the price match.

Went back, got $60+$6 credit ($66!!!). What a great camera and a great deal. Now I only have to wait another 13 weeks for my battery and case :)

zookeeper
10-27-2004, 08:24 PM
After seeing those pictures...................Da$# am I glad I bought the FZ-20. I've been getting great pics myself but I could only compare to others' examples. Sure glad to see someone with both cameras in the same hands. There is no way anyone can compare posted pics between different cameras unless the pics were taken on the same day under the same conditions. Great going....... Now I wonder how the new Minolta Maxxum 7D is going to compare. I have a Maxxum 7000 film camera with several lenses and thought about the new digital Maxxum but I may have saved myself a bundle of money with the FZ-20. I understand the new Digital Maxxum body-only will be in the $1600-1700 range. OUCH... Thanks for the comparison...
....The Zookeeper

BC_Grl
11-07-2004, 10:36 AM
Thank you so much for the comparison.

I had no idea the differences would be staggering. :eek:

wmussatto
11-08-2004, 08:32 AM
-sorry I didn't read entire thread

eben@flmodelsearch.com
11-13-2004, 03:31 AM
i work for circuit city in the imaging department orlando central store for the past 1 1/2 years. yes we price match, the price match policy per the company states that if it is a "web only" price which is stated on the website, then it has to be purchased online. there is an express pickup option available which means you can order it on the website, then pick it up in store. the reason why it is done that way is because of how the inventory system works (i am not allowed by company policy to delve any further on the inventory system though). now by store, and not every store will do it this way, it really depends on manager if they will match it in store for a web only order.

Golfy
11-16-2004, 06:34 AM
Well, not sure to be right but why is there so many differences between
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/samples/rescharts/canon_eos300d.jpg
and
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/samples/rescharts/panasonic_fz20.JPG

I love FZ20 (I've bought one) but I think it couldn't be better than a six megapixels CMOS like 300D. May be your Canon as a problem and need a reparation ? :confused:

srvdcr
11-18-2004, 10:22 AM
I own a FZ-20 and a Canon D30. I'd have to say that I've found similar things, but notice that with post-processing, they can be pretty comparable. When I take images (especially RAW) from the D30, they are consistently underexposed, but nothing that can't be handled with Photoshop. Canon doesn't do much if any in-camera processing, and the Lumix does.

I think the real advantage from the dSLR for me is the ability to follow action and slightly faster autofocus (something newer like the 20D would win hands down). I haven't had too much luck with the red-dot systems for an "optical viewfinder" either. But I love the FZ-20 and don't always want to post-process. For the price, the zoom and the f2.8 aperture, the FZ-20 is hard to beat.

D70FAN
11-18-2004, 11:58 AM
I own a FZ-20 and a Canon D30. I'd have to say that I've found similar things, but notice that with post-processing, they can be pretty comparable. When I take images (especially RAW) from the D30, they are consistently underexposed, but nothing that can't be handled with Photoshop. Canon doesn't do much if any in-camera processing, and the Lumix does.

I think the real advantage from the dSLR for me is the ability to follow action and slightly faster autofocus (something newer like the 20D would win hands down). I haven't had too much luck with the red-dot systems for an "optical viewfinder" either. But I love the FZ-20 and don't always want to post-process. For the price, the zoom and the f2.8 aperture, the FZ-20 is hard to beat.

Just a quick question: Are you using a UV/Haze filter on the D30? If so, try shooting without it. I noticed that my D70 does not like the extra glass and tended to underexpose more with it on.

For as much as I am a (big) fan of the FZ family, they are just no longer usable for me. I almost bought an FZ3 (and later an FZ20) as a backup, but just could not adapt to the EVF and cumbersome ergonomics (compared to the D70). But the FZ's still take some of the best pictures I've seen from an all-in-one. It's all about that lens!... I think they just threw the camera in for free. ;)

Bob Yarbrough
11-20-2004, 04:10 PM
I have a Digital Rebel with 5 lenses including IS long tele. The ranges covered with these lenses is from 28 to 430mm in film camera equivalents.

I use the FZ-10 most of the time as it is so easy to carry and the photos although a little less perfect than the Canon Digital Rebel are fine with me.

I really only use the Rebel when I need the wide angle. Probably going to sell it as I hardly ever use it since I got the FZ10.

Get an FZ20 and be happy

MarkW
11-20-2004, 09:39 PM
I have spent less time on trying to decide between a medium format digital back for my Mamiya 645 afd or the canon eos 1d mark ll than I have this camera. By the way I have both now!!! I have spent hours pouring over the reviews of this camera. The images presented for comparison were just what I needed to be pushed over the edge. My pro gear sits in the studio while my kids grow up without good quality snaps. I needed a camera that takes a great image and plenty of zoom range. This fits the bill just fine. I am quite sure that my wife will be able to operate it as well. Thanks for the CC info. I will be going tomorrow to twist an arm for the match. The free bag and battery are an added bonus. This will be a great family camera that will fill my technical needs and the simplicity for the rest of the family.

Photoshop CS tip:

Make your images poster size from a 5mp image.
Go to:
Image size
Select percent
Type in 110
Hit enter and you’re all done. Repeat this process until you get the size you want. If you create an action for this it speeds up the process. As a note, only 110 % will work. Anything else messes the image up.
Good Luck

Thanks again all,

Mark

BryanMsi
11-20-2004, 10:08 PM
I can't be certain my Rebel doesn't have an issue, but a close friend and fellow shutterbug also has a dReb and it produces the same results as mine, so I doubt it.

I can tell you 3 things:

1. dReb exposure metering just isn't as good as the Lumix. As noted at dcreview.com, the Lumix has an extremely high percentage of "hits" even in challenging conditions...plus you can actually select the metering used by the Lumix. Can't do that with the Canon.

2. The Canon at ISO 100 has significantly less noise than the Lumix at ISO 80. I would say the dReb at ISO 400 and the Lumix at 80 are comparable, noise-wise. Noise Ninja does a great job with both. The Canon at 400 ISO is still useable, the Luix is not.

3. The Leica lens on the Lumix is not only supremely versatile it delivers sharper results than comparably priced dSLR lenses. This is very clear in my comparison shots. My Canon 28-135 IS lens cost almost as much as the entire Lumix camera and still isn't as sharp.

This is one of those cases where simply taking comparison shots and looking at the results tells a much different tale than reading reviews. Based on some reviews, the dSLRs are magic and the point-n-shoots are hopelessly outclassed for "real photographers." Well, it just ain't so.

I do believe that the Canon, with an L lens will blow away the Lumix. However, comparable IS lenses on the Canon would cost thousands of dollars and I don't see thousands of dollars of quality difference between the two cameras. In fact, more often than not, taking the same shot with both cameras has the Lumix on top.

Your mileage may vary...

Golfy
11-22-2004, 01:54 PM
I agree with you !
FZ20 is between pro and basic users ! it have good things but lacks on other... the next digital camera I will buy would be perfect :rolleyes: ! :D

Your experience is however very interesting to learn relativity ;)

cincyimages
01-02-2005, 05:57 PM
Very interesting. I have also been very very happy with my FZ-20.

TheObiJuan
01-02-2005, 11:22 PM
Does anyone own a D70 and the FZ20? I am considering buying the D70, but lately the ease of one great lense has caused me to rethink my potential purchase. I would never need to print more than 8x10, and just for recreational use.

thanks.

jeisner
01-02-2005, 11:49 PM
dReb exposure metering just isn't as good as the Lumix. As noted at dcreview.com, the Lumix has an extremely high percentage of "hits" even in challenging conditions...plus you can actually select the metering used by the Lumix. Can't do that with the Canon.

This is infact something Canon meant to do to get you to buy the 10D, if they didn't cripple the 300D in some ways no-one would ever buy the 10D (well many wouldn't....


The Canon at ISO 100 has significantly less noise than the Lumix at ISO 80. I would say the dReb at ISO 400 and the Lumix at 80 are comparable, noise-wise. Noise Ninja does a great job with both. The Canon at 400 ISO is still useable, the Luix is not.

No disagreement here!!!!


The Leica lens on the Lumix is not only supremely versatile it delivers sharper results than comparably priced dSLR lenses. This is very clear in my comparison shots. My Canon 28-135 IS lens cost almost as much as the entire Lumix camera and still isn't as sharp.

For one it is in some ways unfair to compare $ for $ the Leica lens is a lot smaller (therefore cheaper) as it is providing light to a MUCH smaller sensor (which has its own disadvantages).

Which you get all depends if you want/need the larger sensor and advantages of a true SLR, I have switched to the Pentax ist DS and sold my FZ20 and have no seller remorse, as the Pentax offers advantages that I want ie

1) Optical viewfinder (I hated the FZ20 EVF it really hindered the nice manal focus control for me)
2) Bulb mode
3) Much less noise at higher ISOs
4) Related to point 1 but the lack of gain up on the LCD in dark places was very annoying, even my old Kodak 6490 had this.
5) Well you might complain about lens costs but I like the choice afforded by DSLR and the wideangle and tele offered by Panasonic are EXTREMELY expensive for what they are....

It all depends on what you need... That all said I like the FZ20 but am not a fan of the 300d and would have preferred a comparison to the Nikon D70 or the Pentax *ist DS that haven't been intentionally crippled....

jeisner
01-02-2005, 11:55 PM
Oops left one out:

6) Better/more control over DOF with DSLR...

yusuf
08-03-2005, 10:48 AM
6) Better/more control over DOF with DSLR...

Sorry for my ignorance but how does it matter. DOF can be controlled in non-DSLR camera same way as DSLR by controlling aperture, or am I missing something

TheObiJuan
08-03-2005, 11:00 AM
Sorry for my ignorance but how does it matter. DOF can be controlled in non-DSLR camera same way as DSLR by controlling aperture, or am I missing something

Your missing something.
Digital SLR cameras have much more control over depth of field, moslty, because the aperture range is wider and the dof varies so darn much.
With p&s cameras, really, only macro work will give you nicely blurred background.
At f/2.8 and 300mm the fz20 will probably give similar background blur as a 85 f/1.8 at f/5.6 or f/8.
As the p&s lenses get larger and the sensors get larger, expect this to change. Also, noise will (should) go down with the larger sensors..



Also, it's interesting to see this thread. I posted above many months ago about wanting a d70 or fz20, and look at me now, with a 20D instead. ;)

SVT4ME
08-03-2005, 11:24 AM
Interesting thread! A little old I guess but since it got bumped back to the top I'd like to throw in my experiences so far. I've had a Digital Rebel since 2003, and just last month bought an FZ3 - also with the idea in mind that it would be my "point 'n shoot" backup camera. And again, I've had similar results (even though I have the "lowly" FZ3 and not the FZ20) - pictures of the same subject taken under the same conditions were markedly better in color, clarity, and exposure from the FZ3! Now, I have to admit to not having any "professional quality" lenses for the Canon, and the Digital Rebel (as most Canons) was designed to take a slightly "softer" picture at the default settings, but even so, the difference was jarring!

If it weren't for the fact that I got a "dud" FZ3 that has developed issues it would be my new favorite camera. Once the issues are resolved it may indeed take the position of "first camera I grab" when heading outdoors. The Rebel still has it's place, as mentioned before its ISO performance is superior, and of course the fact that it's an SLR means you can always get more lenses as your budget allows. With a lens that has ring USM, the focusing speed is usually faster than my FZ3 as well.

Before purchasing the Lumix I made a trip to a local car museum and brought the Canon along. I can tell you with certainty that the Lumix would have failed badly in those conditions - it was EXTREMELY dark inside in order to preserve the condition of the cars. Having no tripod, I had to use the highest ISO setting (1600, not counting the "hack speed" here) on the Canon to avoid ugly flash photographs, and yet at least a handful of the pictures still came out presentable even when viewed at 100% (after post-processing) and would make fine prints. The results of the FZ3 would have been dismal in comparison, if for no other reason than that the noise levels at 400 ISO are rather objectionable (I don't have noise reduction software).

IMHO the Lumix cameras are great for when you have adequate lighting and want results straight from the camera (i.e. popping the SD card into a printer and making prints straight off) and the Canon is better for when you want the ability to tweak the photo to your liking (putting aside the resolution differences between the Rebel and the FZ3).

lynchbird
08-04-2005, 09:42 PM
While there are exposure differences in the pictures presented on the initial post, it also seems as if there are focusing issues. I wonder if the Canon images were taken within the correct focus distance for the particular lens/lenses used?

Rex914
08-04-2005, 10:03 PM
I'm not downplaying the FZ20 in any way, but this test is somewhat misleading in several ways.

1) This may not be the author's intent, but the end users are deriving a conclusion that the FZ20 is a better camera than the 300D. And bringing this argument further, they will be led to believe that (entry level) DSLR's aren't what people hype them up to be. Again, I don't think this was the author's intent, but based on all the responses, this is how those users interpreted the post as.

2) This is the biggest reason. For lack of better words, the lens mounted on the DRebel sucks big time. Read the reviews on the Sigma and Tamron 28-300's. Pretty awful. A DSLR with an awful lens will be worse than a lot of point and shoots.

3) The 300D is a crippled camera without that hack, coming out with less functionality and robustness in some areas than Canon's prosumer point and shoots. This test is not represntative of your typical DSLR. The "second generation" entry level DSLR's like the D50, *ST DS, 350D are definitely huge strides over the 300D.

SVT4ME
08-04-2005, 10:38 PM
Fair enough. I won't be throwing my Rebel off a cliff any time soon, but it is interesting to find just how well a "point and shoot" (even the cheaper model Lumix, like my FZ3) can hold it's own against one of the bigger boys when it comes to picture quality. I'm speaking only from my own experiences, however.

The lens that came with the 300D wasn't that bad considering it's cost, but it sure wasn't great either. I'm too poor to have multi-thousand dollar lenses so for now I've got the kit lens and one nice-condition used lens, which I've found to be a noticeable improvement over the kit lens.