Is the new Panasonic DSLR a fundamental shift?

[K1W1]

Looking at the features it appears that Panasonic have started with a clean piece of paper. Image quality is obviously going to be the most important factor but assuming that Panasonic have got things correct is this a fundamental shift in DSLR technology that traditional camera companies like Nikon and Canon are going to have to respond to?

BTW. I kinda like the retro Leica Rangefinder look but I'm not sure I'd actually feel happy handling one.

[coldrain]

More a post for the DSLR forum, I do not see much "Nikon" about this post.

The Panasonic is nothing more than a repackaged Olympus E-330, with the same image processor, live preview and sideways swinging mirror. So, the clean sheet of paper got started by Olympus. It is called the 4/3's system, and it is just another DSLR system, the small image processor of the E-1 and E-300 impressed with image quality at lower ISO's but got a bit noisy at higher ISO's (a bit like the Nikon D200 ;) ).

Since Nikon and Canon did rather well compared to Olympus, they may not be panicing, but with preview and the style, the Panasonic may carve a slice of the entry level pie.

[K1W1]

You are of course correct. There is nothing specifically "Nikon" about my post but I posted it here to see if a could start an intelligent discussion between Nikon DSLR owners about the broader subject of where DSLR's are heading. Obviously your negative know it all post will have now killed that prospect stone dead so all I can say is than you for ruining another thread.

[erichlund]

Looking at the features it appears that Panasonic have started with a clean piece of paper. Image quality is obviously going to be the most important factor but assuming that Panasonic have got things correct is this a fundamental shift in DSLR technology that traditional camera companies like Nikon and Canon are going to have to respond to?

BTW. I kinda like the retro Leica Rangefinder look but I'm not sure I'd actually feel happy handling one.
No.

George said it best. This is a Rube Goldberg solution to shoehorn live preview into a dSLR. I'm afraid that until the EVF is every bit as good (and fast) as the optical viewfinder, there really won't be a good SLR solution. What Panasonic SHOULD have done was really go with the rangefinder idea. They already have the basic design (their eq. to Leica Digilux 2) and access to Leica lenses, they should have just put a 4/3 sensor of larger size into an appropriately sized body. I realize they may have had to upsize it a bit, but can you imagine the cachet of a camera able to use all those legendary Leica lenses. How would you like to be the ONLY digital camera on the block that can mount a 50mm f/1.0 without an adapter? (OK, maybe the 1.0 wasn't their best peice of glass, but that's just one example).

[GabOrcinus]

You are of course correct. There is nothing specifically "Nikon" about my post but I posted it here to see if a could start an intelligent discussion between Nikon DSLR owners about the broader subject of where DSLR's are heading. Obviously your negative know it all post will have now killed that prospect stone dead so all I can say is than you for ruining another thread.
No need to get rude. Coldrain did answer your question, and in a polite manner.

Respect should breed respect.

[coldrain]

No.

George said it best. This is a Rube Goldberg solution to shoehorn live preview into a dSLR. I'm afraid that until the EVF is every bit as good (and fast) as the optical viewfinder, there really won't be a good SLR solution. What Panasonic SHOULD have done was really go with the rangefinder idea. They already have the basic design (their eq. to Leica Digilux 2) and access to Leica lenses, they should have just put a 4/3 sensor of larger size into an appropriately sized body. I realize they may have had to upsize it a bit, but can you imagine the cachet of a camera able to use all those legendary Leica lenses. How would you like to be the ONLY digital camera on the block that can mount a 50mm f/1.0 without an adapter? (OK, maybe the 1.0 wasn't their best peice of glass, but that's just one example).
You can mount a 50mm f1.0 on any Canon EOS DSLR ;) .
http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/data/2/2ef50mmf_10l_1_.jpg
Problem is to find a copy of that lens.

Epson already has a range finder digital camera, the very cool R-D1. The market for range finder cameras is very small though, compared to DSLRs.

[erichlund]

You can mount a 50mm f1.0 on any Canon EOS DSLR ;) .
http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/data/2/2ef50mmf_10l_1_.jpg
Problem is to find a copy of that lens.

Epson already has a range finder digital camera, the very cool R-D1. The market for range finder cameras is very small though, compared to DSLRs.
I was not aware that Canon had also made a 1.0 (well, I think I've seen it before, but I did not recall). I think I was really thinking of the R-D1. Is it still produced? IIRC, they priced it a bit over the top, but that could be because of the limited salability + looking like a Leica M series ;) . I wonder if Panasonic couldn't do better with a similarly sized 4/3 sensor that was capable of live preview. It's gotta be easier to manufacture than than that other thing. Even if they stuck with the smaller sensor, they'd have a good quality lens lineup and I've got to believe fewer long term camera problems.

Heck, if it were reasonably priced, I'd consider one for the wife (though I'd probably use it more :D ). Hmmm. Maybe Nikon will consider one with an F mount. (Yeah, I know, the F mount is a little large for a rangefinder.)

[coldrain]

The reason the R-D1 was priced a bit high ($2200 list price I think) is probably that, besides the low production numbers, you do not make extra proffits from selling lenses too. I guess it is a bit comparable to printers (dirt cheap) and printer ink/paper (that is where the money is made with).

[D70FAN]

You can mount a 50mm f1.0 on any Canon EOS DSLR ;) .

Problem is to find a copy of that lens.

Epson already has a range finder digital camera, the very cool R-D1. The market for range finder cameras is very small though, compared to DSLRs.

More a post for the Canon forum. I don't see much "Nikon" about this post.;)

[coldrain]

Haha, now you are a little less "gabriel" :p

[erichlund]

Well, since we're all yakking about a Panasonic today, I came across some info that indicates this is not internally exactly the same as the Oly.

Apparently, Panasonic left off the full time preview by not using the second sensor. So, this is a case of either/or. Either you have a viewfinder or you have LCD preview, but not both. Personally, I think this is better, since the viewfinder light is not being stolen for the second sensor, and it should be less complicated internally. It would still have to close the shutter, then fire it for the shot, and that still makes the live preview mode a tripod option, just as with the Oly. But, I gotta believe some engineer at Panasonic handled the Oly, rolled his eyes and said "No way!"

I should mention that whenever I think about buying electronics and mention this to my brother-in-law (an electronic tech), Panasonic is high on his list of options. Not because of superior performace but because of reduced failure rate and easier maintenance. Seems the folks at Panasonic have heard of Rube as well. ;)

[coldrain]

My friends dad is a service technician for Panasonic, and he is less enthousiastic about certain Panasonic devices (like cell phones, TV's and such). I do not have the idea they are much better or worse than other mainstream makes. Oh, my Panasonic cell phone still works after having gotten it 3 weeks ago ;)

[wisely_foolish]

I was wondering, will that new Leica lens accompanying the Panasonic L1 fit any of the Nikon DSLRs? If it doesnt fit, is there a way to make it fit? TIA

[coldrain]

No, it will not fit, and there will be no way to fit it on a nikon DSLR.
It will only fit on Panasonic and Olympus DSLRs.

[wisely_foolish]

thank you for your reply.

that's such a shame...I heard that the best lenses come from leica? however, I prefer the ergonomics of the Nikon DSLR to the panasonic one

[Payne]

To me the new and first Panasonic DSRL is a wonderful camera.
Beautiful photographic tool that now comes with an excellent, fast and stabilized Leica lens.......(live view and dust buster)....I love my D50 but Im thinking of buying this camera probably this end of year...:)

[coldrain]

thank you for your reply.

that's such a shame...I heard that the best lenses come from leica? however, I prefer the ergonomics of the Nikon DSLR to the panasonic one
Some lenses from Leica over a lot of decades have been very good, yes.
But that is not to say that Nikon and Canon do not make some very good lenses too, because they do.

In this class of the new Leica lens for the Panasonic, Canon just now introduced an EF-S f2.8 17-55 USM IS, which looks very promissing. Nikon has a very good lens in the same focal range, the f2.8 17-55 DX. That lens too is a very good zoom lens. Both the Canon and Nikon have a constant max. aperture, the Leica does not.

I have not seen the price of the Leica, but if it is near the quality of the Nikon and near the presumed quality of the Canon, it will not be cheap.

[coldrain]

To me the new and first Panasonic DSRL is a wonderful camera.
Beautiful photographic tool that now comes with an excellent, fast and stabilized Leica lens.......(live view and dust buster)....I love my D50 but Im thinking of buying this camera probably this end of year...:)
I'd wait till the price of that lens is known and the lens is tested... the Panasonic will be quite a bit more noise above 400 ISO too. IS in that focal range is nice in very low light, but for the rest not necessary. So, remains the preview option and the dustbuster... in exchange for the great noise performance of the D50.

Nikon has a great lens in that segment too.... the 17-55 f2.8 DX.

[D70FAN]

Haha, now you are a little less "gabriel" :p

Ya, I thught you would appreciate that...;)

[GabOrcinus]

Haha, now you are a little less "gabriel" :p
Huh? :confused:

[Payne]

I'd wait till the price of that lens is known and the lens is tested... the Panasonic will be quite a bit more noise above 400 ISO too. IS in that focal range is nice in very low light, but for the rest not necessary. So, remains the preview option and the dustbuster... in exchange for the great noise performance of the D50.

Nikon has a great lens in that segment too.... the 17-55 f2.8 DX.

I know Cold, the D50 is the best noise performer, but this new Panasonic Reflex is really beautiful, I love its retro desgin....It's a fact the new Panasonic is gonna be noisier than my D50 above Iso 400 but 90% of the time I shoot only at low Isos (200-400), so I think this camera will fit my photographic needs...I also enjoy shooting wildlife and the reach of the new Bigma 50-500 for 4/3 is amazing, 500mm are equivalent to 1000mm (wow!) hope Leica and Lumix make something similar but with OIS.....the Zuiko 50-200f2.8-f3.5 is also very attractive.

[K1W1]

I assume that people have seen Phil Askeys "hands on" with pics of an actual camera in his hands. It appears that there is a lot more difference between the Panasonic and the Olympus than first meets the eye.

One of the reasons I suggested that this may be a fundamental shift is that when you think about it Panasonic are the first real new DSLR manufacturer (forget the Samsung / Pentax clones) who has the technical, engineering and manufacturing expertise to really get amongst the Nikons and Canons. With Panasonics electronics history and their background in video cameras from home user to broadcast, their tie up with Leica, their money and their overwhelming corporate hatred for Sony (also moving into the DSLR market through the Minolta route) and desire to succeed in this market I think we are in for some interesting times in the next 12 - 18 months.

The perception of what a DSLR is and should look like and how it should work may be seriously challenged by these new manufacturers who will apply knowledge from other fields to "think outside the square" that the traditional companies have largely remained inside. I'll give you one small example. The motors that drive the OIS in Panasonic camera's were originally sourced from the division that makes electric shavers i.e. in house. Nikon and Canon for example would probably have had to outsource the development of a feature like this or build it entirely from scratch with virtually no in house expertise in the field (Yes I know Nikon have VR lenses but up until the 18-200 they have really been pro priced products). Panasonic in particular have the options of going to their broadcast camera divison or their air conditioning division or their microwave oven divison or their battery division or numerous other places to get answers to questions that we may not even think of that will ultimately result in better cameras for everybody.