I'm frustrated with the results...

[tarawynne]

I am really bummed out with the results I am getting with my XT. Obviously, there are some great shots, great clarity, mostly on the stils/portraits. BUT, I am trying to shoot indoor children's parties (like I used to with my 35mm) and I just can't seem to get it right. I am getting a lot of blur and halo effects and bad color. I purchased the speedlite 430 to use and my first experience stunk. Can someone tell me wether or not I have all of the tools I need (camera, lens and external flash) to take great shots OR if I need different/new equipment. If I have everything I need, then I will obsess over the settings until I get it right!

I have a lot to learn, but I would appreciate a response to the following:

1. Should I point the flash directly at the subject (indoors) in order to get the sharpest result? I used a lot of bouncing off walls to avoid the direct flash, but was really disappointed.

2. Is it OK to leave the camera on the AUTO setting, when unsure? Will this give me the best combo of settings for the flash, etc. indoors?

3. Are the flash settings in AUTO mode usually pretty accurate or would it be normal that I would have to adjust the flash?

4. Lastly, what are the tried and true settings I should look for when shooting kids indoors? For instance, I was in a disco type setting yesterday(dark, disco lights, big dance studio with high ceilings and mirrors on one wall) and didn't get anything right!!

I can post examples if it would help... Thanks, Tara, NJ, snow, 20 inches!!!!!

[cdifoto]

I am really bummed out with the results I am getting with my XT. Obviously, there are some great shots, great clarity, mostly on the stils/portraits. BUT, I am trying to shoot indoor children's parties (like I used to with my 35mm) and I just can't seem to get it right. I am getting a lot of blur and halo effects and bad color. I purchased the speedlite 430 to use and my first experience stunk. Can someone tell me wether or not I have all of the tools I need (camera, lens and external flash) to take great shots OR if I need different/new equipment. If I have everything I need, then I will obsess over the settings until I get it right!

I have a lot to learn, but I would appreciate a response to the following:

1. Should I point the flash directly at the subject (indoors) in order to get the sharpest result? I used a lot of bouncing off walls to avoid the direct flash, but was really disappointed.

2. Is it OK to leave the camera on the AUTO setting, when unsure? Will this give me the best combo of settings for the flash, etc. indoors?

3. Are the flash settings in AUTO mode usually pretty accurate or would it be normal that I would have to adjust the flash?

4. Lastly, what are the tried and true settings I should look for when shooting kids indoors? For instance, I was in a disco type setting yesterday(dark, disco lights, big dance studio with high ceilings and mirrors on one wall) and didn't get anything right!!

I can post examples if it would help... Thanks, Tara, NJ, snow, 20 inches!!!!!


1. No - your best results will come from bouncing off of walls and ceilings and such to provide a broader, softer, more diffused light source. The lighting won't affect sharpness. It's just light.

2. No. The last thing you want to use is Auto. For flash usage indoors, it's save to go into Manual mode and set your Aperture for the depth of field (subject isolation) you want, then set your shutter speed to what you need to freeze the action. If it's kids playing and such, 1/100th or 1/125th is a pretty safe bet. Don't be afraid to boost your ISO to 400 or so with flash. Noise isn't too bad on these dSLRs. I usually have my ISO at 400 even if I don't need it to be there...because it puts less strain on my flash even though it can handle it. It just lets it recycle faster so I can pop off more shots in a row.

3. Stay away from Auto (see #2)

4. There aren't really any "ideal" settings. It all depends how much flash you want compared to how much ambient (natural) lighting you want. In my house, my flash has to be the primary light because the natural lighting is so bad there's really nothing there to work with. Other people have brighter, better lit homes so they really only want the flash to fill in shadows. For a disco, you probably wouldn't want to use flash. I'm willing to bet a faster lens that you can open up the aperture wide would be better so you can get more of the ambience (flashing lights & such) into the scene, or use that same fast lens and just use your flash to fill in faces.

[arigato]

What lenses are you using to shoot with indoors, and what focal length/shutter speed are you shooting with out of curiosity?

[ktixx]

I have a lot to learn...


I think this is the key statement. You could give a person new to photography a $10,000 setup and a Professional a $2000 setup and I guarantee the results will be 10x better from the pro. Take a TON of shots, try all kinds of different settings and see what works for you. Because it is a digital the only thing you will be waisting is batteries.
Good Luck
Ken

[mediyoga]

"No. The last thing you want to use is Auto"
cdi-buy.com, can you clarify this statement of yours? any single reason to avoid auto on indoor shots? I tried your advise on this, on a patient of mine, non moving subject, lighted by flourescent lamps, kept shutter at 80, widest aperture at 4 and used the flash. Though the meter said that I was underexposing, the shot was ok.
Krishna Raman

[cdifoto]

"No. The last thing you want to use is Auto"
cdi-buy.com, can you clarify this statement of yours? any single reason to avoid auto on indoor shots? I tried your advise on this, on a patient of mine, non moving subject, lighted by flourescent lamps, kept shutter at 80, widest aperture at 4 and used the flash. Though the meter said that I was underexposing, the shot was ok.
Krishna Raman

Auto tends to choose settings that are not handholdable or won't freeze the motion. It also doesn't let you choose your own focus point, which is important when trying to achieve focus on the first try.


Unless you're using the flash as fill-only (ie to lift shadows on facial features), you must ignore the camera's meter because it will always display underexposure. It's only metering for the ambient light, not taking into account the flash that will be included when you hit the shutter button.

[cdifoto]

Since this is in the Canon section, I assume we're all using Canon products so this link should prove very useful to everyone concerned:


http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/



I consider it to be required reading for anyone using flash with the Canon system.

[24Peter]

Tara and Krishna - Don's advice about using the flash and staying away from "Auto" indoors (outdoors it may be OK but I've never used that setting) is good. The only thing to add is in terms of shutter speed, to shoot handheld with shakefree shots, boost the ISO until you get a shutter speed 1) for a wide angle lens equal to 1/60th or the actual focal length of the lens, whichever is greater or 2) for telephoto lens (anything above say 100mm) 1.5-2X the focal length.

Post some photos. That may help us diagnose the problem. :)

[cdifoto]

Tara and Krishna - Don's advice about using the flash and staying away from "Auto" indoors (outdoors it may be OK but I've never used that setting) is good. The only thing to add is in terms of shutter speed, to shoot handheld with shakefree shots, boost the ISO until you get a shutter speed 1) for a wide angle lens equal to 1/60th or the actual focal length of the lens, whichever is greater or 2) for telephoto lens (anything above say 100mm) 1.5-2X the focal length.

Post some photos. That may help us diagnose the problem. :)

That's good advice regarding handheld shots. As for the ISO, however, unless you're only using the flash as fill to lighten up shadows, it really doesn't matter a whole lot. An external flash will generally have enough power to illuminate a room even at ISO100...it'll just take more of the flash's power and recycle slower. I keep mine at ISO400 just so I can pop off more shots in a row.

Also when shooting indoors with flash as the primary light, you'll never have a proper exposure according to the camera's meter. It'll always show underexposure but that's ok. It's not taking into account the flash that will be added to the scene. Just watch your histogram and adjust your Flash Exposure Compensation (in camera or on the flash unit itself) if you're using capable units (check your manuals) to adjust your exposure. FEC of about +2/3 or +1 is normal for Canon E-TTL II flash systems.

[jamison55]

That's good advice regarding handheld shots. As for the ISO, however, unless you're only using the flash as fill to lighten up shadows, it really doesn't matter a whole lot...

Au contraire mon frair (I know you think I'm sexy when I write in french, Don ;) ).

I find that the ISO settings are a powerful tool in boosting the ambient light so that the background looks more natural in flash shots. Indoors, I am usually at ISO 800 with both my cameras, and even 1600 with the 20D.

I prefer the more natural look of photos where the ambient light is brighter in the backgrounds. The most common way to do this is to lower the shutter speed. This allows for more light to reach the sensor from the background and even out the flash/ambient exposure...making for more natural and less "flashed" looking photos. In fact, if you switch the camera over to "night shot" mode, it should do this for you automatically.

However, with a subject that is really moving, you run the risk of motion blur with the slow shutter speeds. When you up your shutter speeds, however, the ambient background light starts to darken. The solution is to up your ISO. For example, it you like the results you are getting at 1/60 and ISO 400, but see some motion blur in your subjects, you will get the same results (sans blur) by shooting at 1/125 and ISO 800.

In fact, for general purposes, I often shoot in "P" mode. This allows the camera to make the Aperture/SS decisions, while allowing me to tweak the FEC and ISO to my liking. This works really well with my 17-40 and 28-70 lenses, but I suspect that it would be a bit slow for a longer tele (since P mode tends to pick a SS of 1/60).

[cdifoto]

It truly depends on your surroundings. In my house, there's no ambience to speak of so upping the ISO can only serve to lessen the flash's *strain*.

I guess I need to live in a real house to make use of ambience. :eek:

Anyway yeah you're right that upping the ISO does increase the ambience but my understanding was she's shooting in her home and bouncing and her shutter speeds are too slow, etc etc. Trying to give a basic rundown rather than go into too much detail.

[jamison55]

You know, in my house it diesn't make much of a difference either, now that you mention it.

The Disco she wants to shoot in is another story altogether!

[cdifoto]

You know, in my house it diesn't make much of a difference either, now that you mention it.

The Disco she wants to shoot in is another story altogether!

yeah in the disco I'd either no flash at all or ISO1600, widest aperture as possible, and set my shutter to something like 1/125th. Then I'd play around and go with the slow shutter speeds :D

[mediyoga]

What happens if the background inside a room of the house is all white? For e;g., in my house there are plenty of white cupboards and wall closets all painted white. With flourescent light falling on these and the subjects the reflection is really bright and white. How would one use a flash without a horrible white glare resulting ?
1) Bounce it?
2) in this situation of white background upping the iso may increase the light reflecting off the white cupboards
3) If one stands far away ( say 10 feet ) from the subject or so, then too the white background is always a pain to get nice pics compared to colored backgounds.
Cheers:)
Krishna Raman
EDIT> the link on Flash photography is too good! I have to digest every paragaph on it. Thanks to CDi for posting that!

[cdifoto]

What happens if the background inside a room of the house is all white? For e;g., in my house there are plenty of white cupboards and wall closets all painted white. With flourescent light falling on these and the subjects the reflection is really bright and white. How would one use a flash without a horrible white glare resulting ?
1) Bounce it?
2) in this situation of white background upping the iso may increase the light reflecting off the white cupboards
3) If one stands far away ( say 10 feet ) from the subject or so, then too the white background is always a pain to get nice pics compared to colored backgounds.
Cheers:)
Krishna Raman
EDIT> the link on Flash photography is too good! I have to digest every paragaph on it. Thanks to CDi for posting that!


1) Yes.
2) No because E-TTL fires a preflash that determines the proper power of the actual exposure flash. The preflash is so short and quick that it's difficult to see. It's fired immediately before the main flash. Any extra light bounced back (non-reflective like mirrors and chrome and reflective paint and such) will be accounted for and the main flash will be weakened accordingly. Read that tutorial I linked. It explains it in great detail.
3) White background is better than colored background. Colored backgrounds will actually screw up your white balance. Shooting in RAW will let you correct it later. You can adjust in JPEG but it's more difficult.


Again, read that tutorial that I linked to in my earlier post.

[tarawynne]

Thanks for all of the responses, sorry I haven't replied in a few days. I wanted to post a couple of pics from the party and also to tell you that I shot with a Canon EF 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5 II USM. Please take note of the wierd colors (especially sample five), the bad lighting (my fault i'm sure, but what do I bounce off of in a large dark room??), and the consistent "just out of focus" look I managed to achieve in almost every shot! I need to go back and re-read a few of your answers again, but in the meantime I wanted to get these up so you could see what I am talking about. Thanks again.

[jamison55]

Here's what I see:

In the two samples that are actually exposed correctly (#5 and #6), the shutter speed is too slow for the action, so you got motion blur.

With the exception of #7 all of the others are very underexposed.

Canon DSLR's tend to need a bit of FEC to boost the flash output a bit. I shoot with my FEC at +2/3 to +1 for the best results. Also, bump up your ISO when using a flash to better balance your room light with the flash output.

A bounce card device like a Flip-It! or Omnibounce helps in a large room because it pushes some light forward instead of solely relying on the bounced light.

Sometimes there's nothing you can do but aim the flash directly. Better to get well exposed images with harsh lighting than unusable images.


So you could have improved your results by:

Choosing a faster shutter speed - to really stop moving action you should start at 1/125. If you think that makes the background too dark, just up the ISO. I have no problem shooting my XT up to 800, and my 20D up to 1600.

Using a bounce card or aiming your flash directly at your subjects - If you are doing this as the "hired pro", you may want to consider a bracket. It doesn't improve the "straight on" look of direct flash, but it does make sure that the light is coming from above the lens, so no side shadows.

USE THE HISTOGRAM - the LCD is very unreliable for image review. I'm sure you were reviewing the images at the shoot, and they looked fine in the LCD, right? The LCD always makes images look brighter than they really are, especially in dark venues. The histogram never lies. If your image is bunched up to the left, than the image is underexposed.

Not to worry, though. Many new digital users have come to appreciate just how much their old film photo labs did for them!

[cdifoto]

^^^^^^^^^^ what he said ^^^^^^^^^^

[tarawynne]

I went back and looked at all of the photo properties and it seems that on the Auto mode with external flash, the camera never chose a SS higher than 1/60 with AV at 4.0. I was using ISO 400 and I thought that would be alright, but I can see now that I should have bumped the ISO and adjusted the FEC, and ultimately, the SS. I am lucky this time in that I practiced on a family member. What's driving me crazy is that I have been to kid's parties where the parents have hired a "photographer" and I watch them shoot with the XT and external flash and they never touch the camera or flash settings. All the photos are shot with direct flash and they get paid A TON of money. I ask them questions about their settings and they don't even know what I am talking about. Admittedly, the say they have no idea what all of the buttons are for. They say they just keep it on Auto and shoot. So, anyway, I learned my lesson. I thought maybe, this camera was smarter than me. I just wish I took one picture with direct flash so I could have had something to compare it to.

[cdifoto]

Auto mode doesn't let you go any higher than ISO400, even if you wanted to. You really should shoot in Manual when you're using flash. E-TTL with proper Flash Exposure Compensation will maintain good exposures, since the camera meters for the ambient lighting only. The flash fires a preflash to determine exposure of the subject/scene.

Set your shutter speed to something you can live with, depending what you're shooting. If it's movement, get it at around 1/125th or faster like Jamison said. Set your aperture for depth of field you want, and then play with your ISO to get more or less ambience into the scene as desired.

I honestly don't know how someone can get paid to shoot an event like that and not even know what settings they're using. That baffles me.

[jamison55]

Admittedly, the say they have no idea what all of the buttons are for. They say they just keep it on Auto and shoot...

Sounds like 1) the "pro" is doing a lot of work in PS to fix his pictures -OR- 2) the "pro" didn't feel like answering any questions!

[cdifoto]

Sounds like 1) the "pro" is doing a lot of work in PS to fix his pictures -OR- 2) the "pro" didn't feel like answering any questions!

Hah number 2 is very possible. When a guest at the Emory wedding asked about my camera & lens I told them that I didn't really know how to work this stuff but carry it because it looks cool.

[aparmley]

Hah number 2 is very possible. When a guest at the Emory wedding asked about my camera & lens I told them that I didn't really know how to work this stuff but carry it because it looks cool.

I bet someone somewhere told other people this guy has no clue about what hes doing! "He told me he didn't know how to work his gear!"

[cdifoto]

I bet someone somewhere told other people this guy has no clue about what hes doing! "He told me he didn't know how to work his gear!"


Hah yeah...little did they know at the time, I was serious! :eek: :D


In my defense, all I promised was heads would not be cut off. I fulfilled my obligations!

[tarawynne]

I can tell you that it is not a case of "knowledge is power"...this "pro" had absolutely no clue and I have confirmed since that she spends a lot of time in PS.

Thank you all for your personal preferences on settings, it helps to guide me a bit. Even though I will have to find my own comfort zone, knowing what you all gravitate towards gives me a good baseline. Thanks Again