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beachluvr
02-06-2006, 01:13 PM
I've been following several threads on this forum lately. Some are in the category of "which DSLR is best", where an inordinately large number of participants are arguing whether it is Canon or Nikon. If they grudgingly mention another brand Pentax seems to be down in the "who are they?" realm.

I mentioned in another thread on the Pentax forum that my first SLR was a Pentax and I have long recommended Pentax cameras to those first learning the craft of photography.

Now that Pentax not only has a great DSLR, but it is one of the very lowest cost ones, the Canon and Nikon folks seem to be quaking in their boots that people will actually buy this "no name" intruder in their hallowed halls of "real" cameras.

Of course this is all just my observation and opinion. The more I read posts by "Pentax people" I find they tend to have more understanding of photography and a more open mind to breaking away from McDonalds and Burger King (Nikon and Canon), and trying something else.

Please don't respond with some silly thing like "Beachluvr hates Nikon and Canon". I have been a Nikon owner for most of my life and have utmost respect for their products. I also think Canon makes some of the best upper-end SLR equipment in the industry.

The reason for my post here today is just to say I hope more people become aware of the company that created the modern SLR camera "as we know it". To give that hope a little push, here is an fascinating link about the history of the early Pentax SLR. Enjoy!

http://www.cameraquest.com/pentorig.htm

jeisner
02-06-2006, 07:15 PM
Now that Pentax not only has a great DSLR, but it is one of the very lowest cost ones, the Canon and Nikon folks seem to be quaking in their boots that people will actually buy this "no name" intruder in their hallowed halls of "real" cameras.

Its a shame as in the 60s Pentax was what Canon is now... Although I don't think most C and N users are quaking in their boots, they couldn't care less about this 'no-name' brand LOL..


Of course this is all just my observation and opinion. The more I read posts by "Pentax people" I find they tend to have more understanding of photography and a more open mind to breaking away from McDonalds and Burger King (Nikon and Canon), and trying something else.

I find that most Pentax owners, own pentax as they specifically wanted a Pentax DSLR, Pentax isn't represented in stores well, so don't pick up first time users who walk into a camera store with little knowledge of what they want... The camera store staff recommend the big C or big N or whoever is giving the biggist SPIV that week (SPIV is a common sytem of 'kickbacks' from wholesalers direct to retail sales staff)..

beachluvr
02-06-2006, 08:24 PM
... they couldn't care less about this 'no-name' brand LOL..
...The camera store staff recommend the big C or big N or whoever is giving the biggist SPIV that week (SPIV is a common sytem of 'kickbacks' from wholesalers direct to retail sales staff)..

1. When writing, hyperbole can be your friend :)
2. So true, I doubt there are many retail stores that even carry Pentax, let alone pay a spiv (sometimes called a spiff) to push it on unsuspecting newbies*.
3. *When writing, hyperbole can be your friend

ktixx
02-06-2006, 08:48 PM
I've been following several threads on this forum lately. Some are in the category of "which DSLR is best", where an inordinately large number of participants are arguing whether it is Canon or Nikon. If they grudgingly mention another brand Pentax seems to be down in the "who are they?" realm.

I mentioned in another thread on the Pentax forum that my first SLR was a Pentax and I have long recommended Pentax cameras to those first learning the craft of photography.

Now that Pentax not only has a great DSLR, but it is one of the very lowest cost ones, the Canon and Nikon folks seem to be quaking in their boots that people will actually buy this "no name" intruder in their hallowed halls of "real" cameras.

Of course this is all just my observation and opinion. The more I read posts by "Pentax people" I find they tend to have more understanding of photography and a more open mind to breaking away from McDonalds and Burger King (Nikon and Canon), and trying something else.

Please don't respond with some silly thing like "Beachluvr hates Nikon and Canon". I have been a Nikon owner for most of my life and have utmost respect for their products. I also think Canon makes some of the best upper-end SLR equipment in the industry.

The reason for my post here today is just to say I hope more people become aware of the company that created the modern SLR camera "as we know it". To give that hope a little push, here is an fascinating link about the history of the early Pentax SLR. Enjoy!

http://www.cameraquest.com/pentorig.htm

FORD was the first company to mass produce the automobile, yet today they are not exactly regarded as the best car on the road...in fact, they are regarded as lower quality cars. If you were to put a Ford (Pentax) against a Nikon (Mercedes) or BMW (Canon) which would you pick. I understand your desire to remember Pentax, but the truth is that they are surpassed by better performing, higher quality products. I don't understand your need to criticize Canon and Nikon fans just because we say Canon/Nikon is better than Pentax. Just realize that if Pentax had incredible quality, with new (useful) technology they would be all the talk on the forum and the debates would be about them. Unfortunately (for them) they slipped back and the true performers rose to the top. They may have been the best at some point, but that was a long time ago...
Ken

beachluvr
02-06-2006, 09:20 PM
FORD was the first company to mass produce the automobile, yet today they are not exactly regarded as the best car on the road...in fact, they are regarded as lower quality cars. If you were to put a Ford (Pentax) against a Nikon (Mercedes) or BMW (Canon) which would you pick. I understand your desire to remember Pentax, but the truth is that they are surpassed by better performing, higher quality products. I don't understand your need to criticize Canon and Nikon fans just because we say Canon/Nikon is better than Pentax. Just realize that if Pentax had incredible quality, with new (useful) technology they would be all the talk on the forum and the debates would be about them. Unfortunately (for them) they slipped back and the true performers rose to the top. They may have been the best at some point, but that was a long time ago...
Ken

1. Ok I don't quite understand why you hate Jaguar and Volvo and think that they are inferior to Chryslers (er, um, *COUGH* Mercedes) or BMW (which I own btw, my second). Oh, didn't know that FORD owns Jaguar and Volvo? ... sooooo sorry.

2. Sub-$1000 entry-level Canons and Nikons can HARDLY be compared to the SLR cameras that made them famous, or even their professional offerings sold today. Mass-produced hunks of plastic with cheap bundle lenses? Right ....

3. True performers? Evidently you're not reading the real story about "marketing" and how Canon and Nikon pay big bucks for shelf space, feature ads, spiffs, etc. at the big box retail stores like Best Buy and Circuit City. Popularity hardly means quality ... of course if you eat at McDonald's every day I might as well not try to convice you of that, right?

4. WAIT ... I should have stopped reading as soon as you equated Pentax with Ford and Nikon/Canon with Mercedes/BMW. After sharing Pentax's illustrious contributions to photography, which were aptly copied by Nikon then Canon, anyone who thinks Nikon/Canon is "better" simply lacks credibility.

5. "Criticize" Nikon/Canon owers????? OMG, you did just what I told you not to do!! Here's the quote in red "Please don't respond with some silly thing like "Beachluvr hates Nikon and Canon". I have been a Nikon owner for most of my life and have utmost respect for their products. I also think Canon makes some of the best upper-end SLR equipment in the industry."

6. Have you ever owned a Pentax? How about any brand other than what the salesman convinced you to buy? You're probably barking up the wrong tree to come into the Pentax thread and make fun of them.

coldrain
02-07-2006, 12:34 AM
You are being a bit weird about DSLRs on the moment. You seem to start an awful lot of threads/posts with KM and Pentax as subject, saying that you do not understand why so many people only seem to be looking at Nikon and Canon.

Your arguement time and time again is that they get picked because they are the biggest thwo, and that their offerings are inferior to KM/Pentax (maybe even Olympus?).

It is getting rather annoying, all the more since your posts are often baseless.
I have not seen much posts that say that Pentax makes crap cameras. All I have seen is people saying that IF you want a pentax, the *istDS(2) is a better choice than the *istDL, and that the lens range of Canon and Nikon is larger. Just that Canon and Nikon offer very good entry level cameras, and that they sell well too, does not say anything about other makes, and does not mean that it is strange to choose a Nikon or Canon, just like it is not strange to choose a Pentax or Olympus.

Now AGAIN you are saying that Canon and Nikon cameras are hunks of plastic with cheap lenses. Do you realize that the Pentax is made of plastic? So is your KM5. Anyone saying the Nikons do not feel solid is not being honest on their arguements. And the lens that pentax bundles is not exactly a great lens, it is built very cheaply and in comparison to what Canon and Nikon offer it is inferior. The Olympus kit lens is the best offering.

Why do you feel the need for these posts that are not exactly laced with a lot of facts? All it does is produce some counter posts and you will again in the same factless manner attack those.

And your idea that because Pentax had produced a nice camera in the past, they still make the best cameras, is a very odd idea. Cars from the 50's are really not comparable to what we drive now, and the designer of those days is not the designer of today. That a certain brand in a certain era made a certain product of good quality only says something of that exact product of that era.

And why YOU come to the Pentax tree to bark down I really do not get... I do not get the reason of your posts, they are not factual, seem to be written to stir things up, and have little to do with what the forum is about, help and information about DSLRs.

And before you flame me again, no where did I claim Pentax makes crap DSLRs, and my choice of camera is not to be made fun of, it too is a very good camera.

MatH
02-07-2006, 02:35 AM
Of course this is all just my observation and opinion. The more I read posts by "Pentax people" I find they tend to have more understanding of photography and a more open mind to breaking away from McDonalds and Burger King (Nikon and Canon), and trying something else.

My answer is about what type of users certain brands attract and not their product quallity. Here's what I think:
Since Pentax isn't popular camera brand, most of it's entry level dSLR users buy it based on its specifications and their estimated needs whilst on the other hand some Nikon and even more Canon entry level dSLR users buy their cameras based on brand popularity. What maters to that type of users is an impresive and expensive camera from a well known brand that makes better pictures than P&S. Learning to use full potentials of camera takes too much effort for that type of users.
To sustain my claim let me tell you that many EOS 350D/RebelXT KIT users bring their cameras to Canon serivce (where I take my A510) saying that it doesn't make pictures as good as their P&S did. Some are even wandering why isn't live preview working. That's not because the camera is bad but because some users are so ignorant.
If Pentax was the most popular camera brand those type of users would be among us.

A note about the Canon kit lens (18-55): I've been seriously considering EOS 350D/Rebel XT and was reading through many forums, online and magazine reviews. This particular lens has a plastic! mount and very low ratings.

coldrain
02-07-2006, 03:05 AM
A note about the Canon kit lens (18-55): I've been seriously considering EOS 350D/Rebel XT and was reading through many forums, online and magazine reviews. This particular lens has a plastic! mount and very low ratings.
It actually is quite a capable lens considering its price, and it bests Pentax' DA 18-55mm f3.5-5.6 AL kitlens and Nikon's AF_S DX Nikkor 18-70mm G-IF ED kitlens in vignetting and distortion, so don't let the cheap materials fool you... it is only a 100$ lens, and not as bad as a lot of people claim. Yes, the mount is plastic, but what does that do to picture quality? Just keeps the price down.

WightWalker
02-07-2006, 04:37 AM
FORD was the first company to mass produce the automobile, yet today they are not exactly regarded as the best car on the road...in fact, they are regarded as lower quality cars. If you were to put a Ford (Pentax) against a Nikon (Mercedes) or BMW (Canon) which would you pick. I understand your desire to remember Pentax, but the truth is that they are surpassed by better performing, higher quality products. I don't understand your need to criticize Canon and Nikon fans just because we say Canon/Nikon is better than Pentax. Just realize that if Pentax had incredible quality, with new (useful) technology they would be all the talk on the forum and the debates would be about them. Unfortunately (for them) they slipped back and the true performers rose to the top. They may have been the best at some point, but that was a long time ago...
Ken
Poor comparison as I would suggest that the the Pentax is more like Rolls Royce attracting the more discerning purchaser & yes, the Canon is probably like the BMC as everyone is under the impression that it's an up market car.

beachluvr
02-07-2006, 08:37 AM
You are being a bit weird about DSLRs on the moment. You seem to start an awful lot of threads/posts with KM and Pentax as subject, saying that you do not understand why so many people only seem to be looking at Nikon and Canon.

Well, um, no I didn't say that. I fully understand why Nikon and Canon are "popular". Popular does not equate with good. Another individual equated popular with Ford cars and felt that was bad. Now that is weird.

Your arguement time and time again is that they get picked because they are the biggest thwo, and that their offerings are inferior to KM/Pentax (maybe even Olympus?).

I specifically asked people who post replies not to suggest I dislike Nikon/Canon, I even put my opinion about the high quality of Nikon/Canon cameras in huge red text. I don't what else I can do to get people to READ what I say! Infering that I feel Nikon/Canon products are inferior is completely untrue. Quoting me "I have been a Nikon owner for most of my life and have utmost respect for their products. I also think Canon makes some of the best upper-end SLR equipment in the industry ...(and) after sharing Pentax's illustrious contributions to photography, which were aptly copied by Nikon then Canon, anyone who thinks Nikon/Canon is 'better' simply lacks credibility."

It is getting rather annoying, all the more since your posts are often baseless.
I have not seen much posts that say that Pentax makes crap cameras.

Neither have I, who said that? What's your point?

All I have seen is people saying that IF you want a pentax, the *istDS(2) is a better choice than the *istDL, and that the lens range of Canon and Nikon is larger. Just that Canon and Nikon offer very good entry level cameras, and that they sell well too, does not say anything about other makes, and does not mean that it is strange to choose a Nikon or Canon, just like it is not strange to choose a Pentax or Olympus.

Now AGAIN you are saying that Canon and Nikon cameras are hunks of plastic with cheap lenses.

Nope, never said that. The quote is "Sub-$1000 entry-level Canons and Nikons can HARDLY be compared to the SLR cameras that made them famous, or even their professional offerings sold today. Mass-produced hunks of plastic with cheap bundle lenses? Right ...." That IS a fact. Just about every sub-$1000 DSLR is mass produced (right?), is plastic (right?) and has a cheap bundled lens (right?). When you mis-quote you continually try to infer that ALL Nikons and ALL Canons are top-of-the-line professional quality and MY point is that you get what you pay for.

Do you realize that the Pentax is made of plastic? So is your KM5. Anyone saying the Nikons do not feel solid is not being honest on their arguements. And the lens that pentax bundles is not exactly a great lens, it is built very cheaply and in comparison to what Canon and Nikon offer it is inferior. The Olympus kit lens is the best offering.

Absolutely, I never said they were not made of plastic. And that doesn't necessarily make them bad (I didn't say it does). Those who own sub-$1000 cameras and feel the camera is equivalent to more expensive DLSRs are only fooling themselves.

Why do you feel the need for these posts that are not exactly laced with a lot of facts? All it does is produce some counter posts and you will again in the same factless manner attack those.

When I read the counter-posts they seem to agree with me, including yours. I do see you trying to twist my words to suggest something I never said, but have yet to see where my posts contain any definitive fact errors.

And your idea that because Pentax had produced a nice camera in the past, they still make the best cameras, is a very odd idea. Cars from the 50's are really not comparable to what we drive now, and the designer of those days is not the designer of today. That a certain brand in a certain era made a certain product of good quality only says something of that exact product of that era.

Never did I say that Pentax ever in the past made the "best" cameras and never did I say they do today. Someone else made that false accusation as well. My article was posted in the Pentax thread because I am a past Pentax owner (who is also considering a Pentax DSLR) to publish some factual history about this innovative company. Pentax is responsible in great part for what we know as a SLR camera. Your analogy of a camera to a 1950's car is way too esoteric for me to figure out.

And why YOU come to the Pentax tree to bark down I really do not get... I do not get the reason of your posts, they are not factual, seem to be written to stir things up, and have little to do with what the forum is about, help and information about DSLRs.

And before you flame me again, no where did I claim Pentax makes crap DSLRs, and my choice of camera is not to be made fun of, it too is a very good camera.

I explained why I opted to guest at the Pentax thread. The question is why YOU are here if not to stir things up. You need to understand that posting historical information to help other forum members is not the definition of "flaming". Tearing apart a post, making wild accusations of fact errors and making fun of well-meaning factual information ... especially in a thread where you have no experience ... indicates an attempt to make trouble and is not the intent of this forum.

The bottom line is, as those who read my articles are well aware, there are no "good" or "bad" cameras ... only good and bad photographers. A box with a pinhole in the right hands can produce a masterpiece, the world's most expensive camera can produce nothing more than a snapshot. With cameras, like most things in life, you get what you pay for. Buy what you want. Buy what you need. And realize that an opinion is not necessarily fact.

~Truth will be truth regardless of any persons igorance or refusal to accept it~

coldrain
02-07-2006, 08:52 AM
Everyone keeps "misinterpreting" your posts, you saying that Nikon and Canon are hunks of plastic without saying the otehrs are too is not misleading, and things like
"Of course this is all just my observation and opinion. The more I read posts by "Pentax people" I find they tend to have more understanding of photography and a more open mind to breaking away from McDonalds and Burger King (Nikon and Canon), and trying something else."
Can of course not give anyone who reads that the impression that Pentax is better and higher in the scale than Nikon and Canon. And besides that, your post is insulting to posters in the Canon and Nikon forums. And wrong, besides that, I do not think you can write that about people like George Riehm, Erichlund, cwphoto, aparmely, 24peter, and a lot of others.

Get real, maybe your writing style is just not right, maybe you do not MEAN to write certain things, but you do give the impression that I stated before.
How you can think for instance that you saying that KM makes class leading cameras (without specifying anything else) does not mean that they are the better than other cameras, is also beyond me. You may mean it differently, but you do not write it differently.

So, stop being surprised that lots of people seem to "misinterpret" your posts, and try to read your posts as if they were written by someone else. You will then see why we reply the way we reply.

beachluvr
02-07-2006, 09:29 AM
Everyone keeps "misinterpreting" your posts

News to me. Seems more like one or two readers like to pick out a few words or phrases and make a big deal of them and ignore my overall philosophies. Most of the responses I get are very supportive and understanding.

You agree with me more than you think. Reinforcing what I said that it is my "observation and opinion" was the right thing to do. You have a right to your observations and opinions too and I respect that. I also enjoy reading the posts from the other forum members you mentioned, many people here have a lot of valuable experience, that's why I am a member.

Thank you for your suggestions to me, I'll try to use them. Some suggestions for you would be to understand the whole concept of a thread rather than pick on the details. Bickering about who is "best" is counter-productive to helping other forum members. Stop telling people they are "wrong", their opinion is just as important as yours. Read a post carefully before responding and understand what the author means. And learn to stop treating people like newbies ... I've earned my credentials.

Oh one more thing ... have fun ... you'll live longer :cool:

beachluvr
02-07-2006, 10:09 AM
How you can think for instance that you saying that KM makes class leading cameras (without specifying anything else) does not mean that they are the better than other cameras, is also beyond me.

You asked the question so I am answering. I have never been the one to make broad sweeping statement that one brand makes better, or worse, cameras than another. Especially in the digital world there is just too much range in most manufacturer's lines to make that a believable statement. I never said that KM makes class leading cameras and that makes them better. What I did say is that “there are tons of people buying the 7D and 5D because they recognize they are class leaders and they believe Sony's acquisition will assure support and compatibility for many years to come.”

And it is absolutely true that KM is a class leader. No one said that Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Pentax, etc are NOT class leaders ... that's what the whole term "class leader" means, they lead in a certain class. Who says they are class leaders? Ah, that's the root of the issue. It can be reviewers, owners, the "trade", their competitors, even their own PR department.

For example, there are several well-know reviewers who think the KM body is better built than most other DSLRs in its class. Many think the KM autofocus is class leading. Certainly most agree that the range of external controls on the 7D and 5D is class leading.

But what "class" did the 7D and 5D occupy? Camera prices for KMs changed a lot compared to their competitive Nikon and Canon models, to name two. Then Nikon came out with a lower price version of their D70, while Canon did not respond with their own lower price version. So whatever class KM was in shifted significantly.

And, when somebody (whoever that is) has the opinion that a certain feature is "class leading" does that make the other brands less-good? For example, the body build of the KMs. Better? Well, at it's current street price the 7D certainly trumps the D70 and 350 with metal vs plastic. But that makes it heavier*. For some people an advantage, for some people a disadvantage.

I hope that answers your question about what class-leading means. Try not to see it as a broad generality that describes one model (or brand) as being better or worse than another. It more accurately describes some consensus that a certain feature of a certain model may lead their competition in that category. I would hope no one would read that as saying that brand or model is a better product.


* I came back to edit this for accuracy. Here are the actual body weights:

Nikon D70 (inc. batt/CF) 679 g
Canon EOS 350D (inc. batt/CF) 540 g
Konica Minolta 7D (inc. batt/CF) 872 g

jeisner
02-07-2006, 02:38 PM
Can the canon users go blow wind up their own butts elsewhere... Please...

Jeff Keller
02-07-2006, 02:45 PM
I'm closing this thread... can we stop the pissing contests please?