Camera quality seems low for big money?

[Ghost9]

alright so here's my situation; I am a graphic designer that enjoys photography. I want a good high quality camera from which I'll use the pictures in my designs. I was looking at the Cannon Rebel dSLR because from what I've read it had good reviews and the specs were good for the price. But I went to circuit city and played with the one they had on display and I was greatly dissappointed. The lens was the standard EF-S 18-55mm lens that comes with it if I choose it. or i could just buy the body for 100 bucks less. What I was dissappointed with was the lens. It seemed extremely cheap and low quality for a 1000 dollar camera. I know there's a lot of discussion about lenses, but what I want to know is hard to grasp based on reading specs.

Basically the lens felt like a cheap plastic and the focus range was extremely limited. I'm not looking for a zoom lense. I used to use a 35mm film camera that had nice solid feeling construction of glass and metal that had a very sharp focus. So I guess my question is, are all these camera lenses now adays this cheap poor quality type of product? or was it that they had crap out on display? I don't want to go spend 1000 dollars and what I witness in the store. Are other lenses out there of better quality?

[timmciglobal]

For more money sure, my 17-40L is built like a tank but costs 699 retail (625 online)

Think of a dSLR like a gigantic roll of film with a disposable camera attached to it. That's how they work and should be thought of because you won't have the same camera in 5 years saying anything but "wow, I need a new one"

Tim

[aparmley]

First off that was a consumer lens and the kit to be exact, $125 lens. They aren't going to put a $1,000 lens on the body and let whomever take it off and walk out.

Yes - They make better quality lenses if you are willing to spend the money. The XT body can be hand for under $800 - Its not a $1000 camera, its street price is about $789 Buying it anywhere else for more is just giving 200 bucks away. Sure its large cost of entry. Its not really a disposable camera - I think the big thing is that they have to cater to the old Point and shoot crowd - Small light - they won't want to make the leap into an SLR system if something is big, bulky and heavy - sounds crazy. Plus with all the technology inside the camera, using a cheaper chasis for the camera body makes sense from a business standpoint, corners are cut in some areas and I think that in the XTs case the body got the smallest budget, But it can be remedied nicely with the battery grip! for another 400 I think the 20D is a leap up in quality - but the XT's image quality is very close if not identical in most respects to the 20Ds.

[Ghost9]

Thanks I appreciate the replies. I'm not looking for just a point and shoot. I want the camera to be able to auto focus, but I also definately want control over film speed, focus, etc. I'm looking for a professional camera with great image quality, but since I'm still somewhat of a beginner in photography i thought I'd be good with the rebel xt. Though it is awfully small for my hand. I was looking at the 20d but wasn't sure it was worth the extra cost at my skill level. The main things I want is control, and high print quality images.

Since you can't actually test the image quality of the camera in the stores, i just based it on what I saw. I have no issues with spending money on a lens if it is quality. My concern is that all lenses would be like the one in the store. if I spend the money I want to make sure it is worth it. Perhaps I over-reacted to what they had in the store?

[TenD]

Canon L lenses are all built like tanks and heavy. Tokina lens build quality also tends to be very high. The 18-55 lens you tried in the store is of the poorest build quality Canon has, everything in Canon's line is of higher quality with the exception of the 50mm f/1.8.

[aparmley]

The main things I want is control, and high print quality images.


I'm not saying you should go XT [Even though I like it and recommend it] - But, The XT will deliver what you require. You do have choices though. Nikon D50, D70, Canon XT, 20D - these will all meet your requirements.

[Ray Schnoor]

Since you can't actually test the image quality of the camera in the stores...
You can do what I always do when I am considering which camera to buy. Bring a CF card with you, take some photos, and check them out when you get home.

[mediyoga]

I am not a pro, i use the rebel xt for my medical work. I believe that the 28-135 (supposed to be fast) may give gou a decent range to begin with. Its priced at USD 409 @B&H.

Cheers
Dr Krishna Raman

[Ghost9]

Canon L lenses are all built like tanks and heavy. Tokina lens build quality also tends to be very high. The 18-55 lens you tried in the store is of the poorest build quality Canon has, everything in Canon's line is of higher quality with the exception of the 50mm f/1.8.


L lenses? From the description i read, the xt only works with EF lenses. Am I getting confused here?

At the moment, the type of lense I really want is just one that will adjust the focus. I don't want a zoom right now. I'm planning on using it for product shots and other close up type of things where I want to be able to bring things in and out of focus. Not looking for zoom right now, but it seems like the majority of lenses out there are about some form of zoom.

[cdifoto]

L lenses? From the description i read, the xt only works with EF lenses. Am I getting confused here?

At the moment, the type of lense I really want is just one that will adjust the focus. I don't want a zoom right now. I'm planning on using it for product shots and other close up type of things where I want to be able to bring things in and out of focus. Not looking for zoom right now, but it seems like the majority of lenses out there are about some form of zoom.


Canon makes L series (ie professional grade) lenses which are the premium lineup of lenses in the EF mount for their EOS cameras, compared to non-L lenses (ie consumer lenses).

[Ghost9]

Canon makes L series (ie professional grade) lenses which are the premium lineup of lenses in the EF mount for their EOS cameras, compared to non-L lenses (ie consumer lenses).


i c. thanks for the reply

[aparmley]

. . . but it seems like the majority of lenses out there are about some form of zoom.

CANON EF Primes
------------------------
EF 14mm f/2.8L USM
EF 15mm f/2.8 Fisheye
EF 20mm f/2.8 USM
EF 24mm f/1.4L USM
EF 24mm f/2.8
EF 28mm f/1.8 USM
EF 28mm f/2.8
EF 35mmm f/1.4L USM
EF 35mm f/2
EF 50mm f/1.4 USM
EF 50mm f/1.8 II
EF 85mm f/1.2L USM
EF 85mm f/1.8 USM
EF 100mm f/2 USM
EF 135mm f/2L USM
EF 135mm f/2.8 w/ Softfocus
EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM
EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM
EF 300mm f/4L IS USM
EF 400mm f/2.8L IS USM
EF 400mm f/4 DO IS USM
EF 400mm f/5.6L USM
EF 500mm f/4L IS USM
EF 600mm f/4L IS USM
EF 1200mm f/5.6L USM
EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro
MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro
EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM
EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM
EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro USM
TS-E 24mm f/3.5L
TS-E 45mm f/2.8
TS-E 90mm f/2.8

You should be able to find any of these you want at the major online retailers.
B&H Photo
Adorama
Norman Camera
KEH
Canoga
and any other I left out. . .

[Ghost9]

wow. Thanks for the reply. That's awesome. I got some research to do I think. Thanks a lot! I'm going to have to frequent this forum more often.

[aparmley]

wow. Thanks for the reply. That's awesome. I got some research to do I think. Thanks a lot! I'm going to have to frequent this forum more often.


there is already a wealth of knowledge and information in this forum, just look at old threads, do a search or two.

While your looking around at lenses and everything else there are a few sites that are worth while to visit.

www.fredmiranda.com - they have an equipment review section that is pretty good.

www.pbase.com - http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon - this is their camera database - if you scroll down to the bottom section they have most if not all the lenses with sometimes thousands of sample images from Pbase's members taken with any lens. Warning - That site will consume a lot of time and can be blamed for excessive spending if you aren't careful.

I went back and bolded those prime lenses which I feel are extremely popular. The vary greatly in cost but I found that they are the most popular primes. The ones highlight in red represent those that I feel deliver the best image quality + performance + lowest price - Let me explain, they aren't cheap lenses - but very affordable in terms of all around quality i.e. for the money, they will deliver the highest image quality and performace. I suppose this is another way of saying - those are the best bang for your buck lenses. Guys, did I word that appropriately? Help me out if you know what I am saying and can do so better.

[Ghost9]

thanks. I appreciate the help and understand what you are saying.

[Ghost9]

i've pretty much narrowed my choices down to either the rebel xt, or the 20D. What I'm trying to figure out, is what makes the 20d worth so much more, and if it would be worth that much more to me. From the specs I just can't see where the 400 dollar difference is coming from. is it about the materials that the camera is manufactured with? cause the performance doesn't seem all that different.

I've also been reading up and trying to figure out exactly how the manual controls work. Are they not like the old cameras where you'd adjust the focus on the lens anymore? When they say manual control of focus, does that just mean you can pick the point of focus, or can you actually control the focus specifically so if you want an unfocused image you can do it?

sorry if i'm being annoying. People here seem knowledgable and I appreciate the help, even though these same questions have probably been asked over and over.

[ReF]

I've also been reading up and trying to figure out exactly how the manual controls work. Are they not like the old cameras where you'd adjust the focus on the lens anymore? When they say manual control of focus, does that just mean you can pick the point of focus, or can you actually control the focus specifically so if you want an unfocused image you can do it?

.

i don't know of a lens that can't be manually focused. on some of the cheaper lenses, there is no manual focus ring, instead, you just turn the front of the lens that sticks out. on most lenses though, there is a manual focus ring that lets you adjust the focus to your liking.

[Ghost9]

none of the cannon or nikon ones that are in displays in stores have focus rings that i have found yet. except for an olympus one.

[aparmley]

none of the cannon or nikon ones that are in displays in stores have focus rings that i have found yet. except for an olympus one.

You gotta be kidding right? :confused:

[Ghost9]

You gotta be kidding right? :confused:
nah. unless i wasn't paying close enough attention. It had the adjustment for zooming in and out, but the image was always out of focus.

[cdifoto]

nah. unless i wasn't paying close enough attention. It had the adjustment for zooming in and out, but the image was always out of focus.

The image being out of focus means you have to turn the ring to obtain focus. Lots of people play with those things.

There's always a focus ring for a lens, even if it's a prime. Some are just larger than others.

[timmciglobal]

The canon and nikon kit lens focus ring is not full time manual override. You need to set it to manual focus and turn the front ring (the very edge of the end of lens) other higher end canon and nikons have full time manual focus rings.

Tim

[coldrain]

nah. unless i wasn't paying close enough attention. It had the adjustment for zooming in and out, but the image was always out of focus.
For one, like others said, you need to put the lens in MF first to be able to manual focus, and the out of focus part, you need to press the shutter button halfway to let the AF focus.

[24Peter]

For one, like others said, you need to put the lens in MF first to be able to manual focus, and the out of focus part, you need to press the shutter button halfway to let the AF focus.

OMG - that's why my shots are always so blurry! I'm glad someone finally explained that to me. ;)

[coldrain]

OMG - that's why my shots are always so blurry! I'm glad someone finally explained that to me. ;)
I'm glad we cleared that up :p ;)

[Ghost9]

i'm a noob i know. in the stores the cameras don't even have power so it's hard to get the full grasp of how well or not well they work. thanks though

[Ghost9]

does anyone know exactly why the 20d is worth 400 more than the rebel xt?

[aparmley]

If I hadn't known anything about either camera this is the list that I'd give you pointing out the differences between the 2 as found at dpreview (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?method=sidebyside&cameras=canon_eos350d%2Ccanon_eos20d&show=all)

20D features that top the 350D
----------------------------------
Larger sensor [slightly] little more resolution [again slight.]
ISO 3200
9 AF points vs 7 for the XT
Kelvin WB overide
1/8000 max Shutter speed vs 1/4000 for the XT
5 FPS vs 3 FPS with the XT
slightly more pixels in the LCD
Weighs a little more
Is bigger than the XT
Menu Dial on the back
I think start up time is a little quicker, noticable?
Does not feel like a toy - seems to be the concensus.

Ok - Does that look like $400? To some people it doesn't so they don't go for the 20D. If I had to evaluate it I would say that a skilled photographer should be able to produce the same quality of work with either camera. The sports shooter/wildlife shooter may have a better reason to choose the 20D ove the XT for the 5fps, better AF servo tracking, 9 focus points, larger body helps hold the larger lenses. increased ISO to 3200 for higher shutter speeds in lower light. The 20D is a better all around camera than XT. It bests the XT slightly in all the areas mentioned. To me, yes the 20D is worth the extra 400. I have the XT though so how can I be sure, because if I had the money, I'd upgrade. Now, I am caught in the lens collection business. I am targeting the great lenses because I will always have them and the XT will suffice for a while. So I don't need a new camera yet.

So for a newb looking to buy today - my advice would be to spend the rest of the month reading everything you can get your browser on! haha. but seriously, read what people are saying about each camera, learn more about the equipement, read reviews. At the end of the month see what Canon announces at the PMA - The Canon camp may have a new DSLR to talk about, most think it will be the 20D's replacement. If this is true, the 20D may come down in price and/or the used price of 20Ds will drop because a lot of people will dump theres for the latest and greatest. I'd make my decision after learning what Canon announces.

[cwphoto]

aparmley, does the 20D allow you to scroll through images taken on RAW only? I was talking with a 350D/XT owner on Friday night and they reckon they can only review JPEGs on the LCD - could be another point of differentiation?

[Ghost9]

So for a newb looking to buy today - my advice would be to spend the rest of the month reading everything you can get your browser on! haha. but seriously, read what people are saying about each camera, learn more about the equipement, read reviews. At the end of the month see what Canon announces at the PMA - The Canon camp may have a new DSLR to talk about, most think it will be the 20D's replacement. If this is true, the 20D may come down in price and/or the used price of 20Ds will drop because a lot of people will dump theres for the latest and greatest. I'd make my decision after learning what Canon announces.

Thanks. very helpful and I think I may do that.

[coldrain]

aparmley, does the 20D allow you to scroll through images taken on RAW only? I was talking with a 350D/XT owner on Friday night and they reckon they can only review JPEGs on the LCD - could be another point of differentiation?
You can review RAW photos fine with an XT. Main advantages besides speed of the 20D are two separate dials to change aperture and shutter speed in M mode (XT needs you to press a button to use one dial for both) and the better noise performance of the 20D. One drawback of the 20D compared to the XT is the loud mirror sound.

I prefer my 350D being small and lighter, others prefer the 20D's sturdy magnesium alloy feel. That is a personal choice. Image quality wise both are very close, except where noise performance in concerned at higher ISO's.

The Olympus does not perform as well in my opinion in correct exposure and colour. It also is more noisy (has quite a bit smaller sensor) than the XT. But, it is a good camera. The main drawback of the Olympus is lens selection, specifically single focal point lenses are missing from the range.

[aparmley]

aparmley, does the 20D allow you to scroll through images taken on RAW only? I was talking with a 350D/XT owner on Friday night and they reckon they can only review JPEGs on the LCD - could be another point of differentiation?

I'm not exactly sure to which camera this is directed. On my XT what ever mode I am in the images can be previewed on the LCD, raw or jpeg. I'd assume the same is true for the 20D - Second thought, I don't know why one would make a camera that takes RAW but wont display the picture on the LCD? Doesn't really make any sense.

If you meant you talked to an XT owner and they claimed they couldn't review RAW images on their LCD they are right and they are wrong :cool: How's that? - What the Camera does is this: When a person shoots in RAW - It captures the image in RAW format - Stores it to the CF card - Then when the user wishes to review that RAW image the camera applys the in-camera parameter settings, converts it to JPEG and shows it on the LCD - If you run into the gentleman with the XT again, tell him to take two pictures, one raw, one fine jpeg - They will look identical [ if he maintains the exposure] on the LCD, because the RAW image will display with the same parameters applied to the jpeg - so in a strange way, no the XT does not display the RAW image "as taken" - it displays it only after applying the in camera parameters and converts it to jpeg. Now, I am pretty sure thats what goes on. So he is right and wrong. If he meant you don't see any image, then he is flat out blind and should immediately drive himself to the furthest eye doctor for a check up. :D

[cwphoto]

It was directed to the XT model, so maybe he just wasn't familiar with the controls yet - didn't sound right to me at the time either.

Not being able to review your images doesn't make a lot of sense - maybe Canon are saving this 'feature' for the new 3000D?:p

[aparmley]

Not being able to review your images doesn't make a lot of sense - maybe Canon are saving this 'feature' for the new 3000D?:p

:D LOL

I think they are going to add MP3 capability oh and the ability to watch video, so you can D/L some reruns of that 70's show sit back and watch it on your 2.5" LCD. :eek:

[cdifoto]

:D LOL

I think they are going to add MP3 capability oh and the ability to watch video, so you can D/L some reruns of that 70's show sit back and watch it on your 2.5" LCD. :eek:


I thought they were adding satellite internet by replacing the shutter button with a dish.

[ReValveiT]

I thought they were adding satellite internet by replacing the shutter button with a dish.

Or perhaps, god forbid, a PRINT BUTTON! ...




...Oh, hang on a sec...

[ReF]

nah. unless i wasn't paying close enough attention. It had the adjustment for zooming in and out, but the image was always out of focus.

some places only carry low end lenses, so i'm not surprised at all that you only found a MF ring on the Oly lens.

one thing you have to look out for is the diopter correction wheel near the viewfinder. if it's setting does not match your eye...condition or whatever even in-focus images will appear blurry. just turn the wheel to adjust the setting (camera does not need power for this).

[woffles]

I'm not exactly sure to which camera this is directed. On my XT what ever mode I am in the images can be previewed on the LCD, raw or jpeg. I'd assume the same is true for the 20D - Second thought, I don't know why one would make a camera that takes RAW but wont display the picture on the LCD? Doesn't really make any sense.

If you meant you talked to an XT owner and they claimed they couldn't review RAW images on their LCD they are right and they are wrong :cool: How's that? - What the Camera does is this: When a person shoots in RAW - It captures the image in RAW format - Stores it to the CF card - Then when the user wishes to review that RAW image the camera applys the in-camera parameter settings, converts it to JPEG and shows it on the LCD - If you run into the gentleman with the XT again, tell him to take two pictures, one raw, one fine jpeg - They will look identical [ if he maintains the exposure] on the LCD, because the RAW image will display with the same parameters applied to the jpeg - so in a strange way, no the XT does not display the RAW image "as taken" - it displays it only after applying the in camera parameters and converts it to jpeg. Now, I am pretty sure thats what goes on. So he is right and wrong. If he meant you don't see any image, then he is flat out blind and should immediately drive himself to the furthest eye doctor for a check up. :D

Not sure if this is quite right. I think, on the 20D at least, when you shoot raw only a small jpeg is created for viewing but not real high resolution. If you zoom in it doesn't look very good. If you shoot L (large jpeg) you can zoom in and tell sharpness better. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

To the OP, get a 350XT and a 50mm 1.8 and you'll probably be happy. Not the highest quality build on the lens I suppose but good sharp lens for only ~$80. Can't beat it anywhere for the price. I've had one picture accepted on ImageVortex using that lens. Only sent in two so far and the other was rejected due to content not quality.