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View Full Version : D70 or EOS20D? BEGINNER NEEDS HELP...PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!



nightvision
10-18-2004, 11:31 PM
I have no experience on SLR's(YET), but I would like to invest in good camera that will last me a long time, as I do not intend to buy the newest models every second year or so. I NEED to know which of these is somewhat easier to learn and operate so that I can get the hang of using a SLR camera. PLEASE help me before I invest some serious cash in the wrong camera for me!!!!!!!!!

Ant
10-19-2004, 04:08 AM
I don't think you'll go wrong with either camera, neither could be described as easier to learn. Just go into a shop and try both of them out to see which you like better.

maflynn
10-19-2004, 05:40 AM
Depends on your needs, since its your money and only you can make that decision.

For me I went with the D70 for the following reasons:
1. The 20d was out of stock everywhere I went, so I ended up comparing the D70 with the 10D.
2. I liked the feel, balance, construction of the 10d.
3. I couldnít justify the cost difference between the D70 and the unseen 20D. 4. I donít need to produce 8mp pictures.
5. I plan on keeping this camera several years not every second or third, and I believe Nikon Quality affords me that.

I went to numerous camera stores asking lots of questions. They all came back and recommended the Nikon D70.

For my needs, I wanted a faster camera (faster then the P&S), Having raw format was a plus, better optics and more control over the various controls. I was in Hawaii this past summer and my Sony DSC P72 had problems on the ocean. The auto setting over-exposed the images.

Since your starting out (as I am), Iíd recommend the D70, purely from a price perspective. The Canon 20D has more bells and whistles, since its newer but will you use them, will you use all of the bells and whistles of the D70.

What type of experience do you have with digital camera's How do you know a high(er) end digital point and shoot such as the Canon A95 won't surffice?

Finally you really need to go to some camera stores ask questions try both out. You may like how the Canon fits in your hand and the feel of it (as I did with the Nikon).

Good Luck and you won't be disapointed with either camera IMHO

Mike

nightvision
10-21-2004, 09:41 PM
That some seriously good advice. I apreciate it.

Scott Jennings
10-27-2004, 11:48 PM
You buy a DSLR over a point and shoot because of the ability to control the camera. All have very good automatic modes to do everything for you until you learn how to run it yourself. The D70 offers more control when you get to that point and in a much more user freindly format than the DReb. Most of the things you want to adjust are available without having to go through layers of menus or holding down two buttons while you scoll another knob. The D70 is priced in between the two Canons and has the most bang for the buck.

skyfree
10-28-2004, 04:25 AM
I have a d70, at the moment the 20d wasn't out yet... now I think I should have waited to buy a 20d... read the reviews on that site, on steve's digicam.. look at the samples you can find on the web.., print them in a professional lab, and make your own decision...

D70FAN
10-28-2004, 07:52 AM
I have a d70, at the moment the 20d wasn't out yet... now I think I should have waited to buy a 20d... read the reviews on that site, on steve's digicam.. look at the samples you can find on the web.., print them in a professional lab, and make your own decision...

I felt that way too, but after using the 20D a few times, and comparing photos, I decided not to "trade-up". The D70 does everything I need a camera to do and more. My only beef is with the price of VR lenses, so I have to pack my monopod when I'm shooting. The same is true for Canon.

You can always sell your D70 and buy a 20D, but I don't think you will really see that much difference in the final result.

At this point I would think people would be waiting to see how the Konica Minolta 7D comes out. With built-in image stabilization, and a similar pricepoint to the 20D it might just be worth the switch.

Ant
10-28-2004, 08:30 AM
Even if somebody offered me a free trade I wouldn't part with my D70 for a 20D....seriously!!

The 20D has got lots of features that I don't really want or need, but it's also missing a couple of things that I use a lot on my D70: Spot metering...D20 hasn't got it. I also prefer to get good JPGs straight out of the camera without having to do too much post edit, and I never shoot RAW. The D70 custom curve feature is extremely useful for this and something else that the 20D doesn't have.

It's all a matter of personal taste really. :rolleyes:

eagle17
10-28-2004, 09:15 PM
Even if somebody offered me a free trade I wouldn't part with my D70 for a 20D....seriously!!

The 20D has got lots of features that I don't really want or need, but it's also missing a couple of things that I use a lot on my D70: Spot metering...D20 hasn't got it. I also prefer to get good JPGs straight out of the camera without having to do too much post edit, and I never shoot RAW. The D70 custom curve feature is extremely useful for this and something else that the 20D doesn't have.

It's all a matter of personal taste really. :rolleyes:

I happen to use spot metering on my 20D all of the time, On the canon it is called partial metering. You are correct about the custom curve and if you are getting good results from that then more power to you, I for one do not believe that it is as practical as it looks on the outside but then again I have not had the chance to use it. I would also like to point out the price of the D70 should make it more attractive also, and if you do decide to start using it more you can still get some very high quality lenses for it.

I have the 20D and picked canon based on the fact that I have had canon slr cameras and already had a few lenses for them. I have recomended the D70 to friends who have a collection of nikon lenses from there n90s. I would take the D70 over the digital reb, and I would take the 20D over the D70. But that is my personal choice. an it all depends on what you really want to do with it... for the price of the 20D you can get a D70 with a few lenses and maybe even a cheap flash.

John

Ant
10-29-2004, 02:55 AM
I happen to use spot metering on my 20D all of the time, On the canon it is called partial metering.
John

I don't think that the 20Ds partial metering is exactly equivalent to genuine spot metering. I think it's about the same as the D70s Centre weighted metering when set to the minimum area....and that definitely performs slightly differently to proper spot metering.

Having said that though I've not used a 20D so I'm just going off specs and what info I've got from other 20D owners.

EDIT: I've just spent some time reading up on this and the 20D's partial metering is definitely not genuine spot metering.

patricktom
11-05-2004, 04:50 PM
Hello I'm a person who just bought a 20d as my first camera in 20 years...
The 20d has been pretty good for me so far...the camera teaches you a lot
just by the feed back you get from it every shot you take...you can read in forums about the particular quirks the camera has in relation to the type of
photographs you're trying to take which is very helpful...I wanted the 20d for
for four reasons...fast multiple shots,ability to change to b&w in camera,
8mp, and cheaper lenses...right now what I use most in the camera is the iso
setting and b&w...It seems though that your trying to figure out if the egg is
any good without cracking it open...it will be difficult to tell you which will be
easier to learn because manuals including mine are not always clear...and
controls can be counter intuitive depending on the way you are intuitive....
I'm actually joking here...ha ha...anyways if any of those features I had mentioned you would like to have buy the 20d...on another note...you might see if you can rent a d slr or any slr...take some photography lessons...and find out what interest you in features you could want in a camera...you might even get some good opinions by the people who might be in the class...no matter how difficult the camera is to use in the beginning...you will learn it... at the price you're paying for the camera I hope you use it at least once a week...happy shooting

Reminisce
11-06-2004, 02:38 PM
I just recently purchased a 20D after upgrading from the DReb and I will never look back. The D70 is one helluva camera, let me tell you. I was looking at that before the 20D came out, and the 20D came out of nowhere to me.
I've used both, and there are just too many pros than cons when comparing these cameras. The 20D is without a question, a master of handling high ISOs (noise ratio), and is silky smooth from 800 down. Its also the fastest camera in its price range as far as image processing, shutter speed, and fps (5fps), I've been able to burst over 60 shots at 5fps in Small JPEG mode with an Ultra II card. The avg user will not use this feature to this extent, but its just a piece of mind knowing its there. The camera also is very smart at focusing and noticeably faster in this aspect than my former DReb and the D70 I played with.

As far as image quality goes, in most cases its very minimal, and this is where the investment in bodies becomes minor and the investment in lenses becomes major. Thats another topic altogether, that I wont get into.
It all boils down to what you can afford really. The D70 is possibly the best bang for the buck. The 20D is a pure 'you get what you pay for'. I'd get the D70 over anything if the 20D didnt exist. But thats me.

wishbone
11-07-2004, 05:42 AM
I'm in the same situation, although my purchase is probably a few months off. Luckily, I will be in NY over the holidays and plan on spending some time at one of the big camera stores to get a chance to handle the camera to help make my selection. I think all DSLR's today will take great pictures, so the final decision depends on which features are most important to you, and how they feel.

Models I am considering (and various pro's and cons:)

Pentax *istDS: Small size is appealing (hard to find Pentax stuff)
Olympus E1 (or E300:) Size, build quality (E1), anti-dust technology (noise at higher ISO, longevity of 4/3)
KM 7D: Anti-shake makes all lenses VR (pricier than others, large size)
Sigma SD10: Lots of limitations, but I love the Foveon technology (noise at higher ISO, RAW only, big body)
D70: Custom curves, proven great camera (no real negatives)

Ok, I can't make up my mind :D

Realiztically, I expect I will decide, after handling, how important the size and AS benefits are to me and either end up with the D70, 7D, or Olympus.

D70FAN
11-07-2004, 08:10 AM
I'm in the same situation, although my purchase is probably a few months off. Luckily, I will be in NY over the holidays and plan on spending some time at one of the big camera stores to get a chance to handle the camera to help make my selection. I think all DSLR's today will take great pictures, so the final decision depends on which features are most important to you, and how they feel.

Models I am considering (and various pro's and cons:)

Pentax *istDS: Small size is appealing (hard to find Pentax stuff)
Olympus E1 (or E300:) Size, build quality (E1), anti-dust technology (noise at higher ISO, longevity of 4/3)
KM 7D: Anti-shake makes all lenses VR (pricier than others, large size)
Sigma SD10: Lots of limitations, but I love the Foveon technology (noise at higher ISO, RAW only, big body)
D70: Custom curves, proven great camera (no real negatives)

Ok, I can't make up my mind :D

Realiztically, I expect I will decide, after handling, how important the size and AS benefits are to me and either end up with the D70, 7D, or Olympus.

The E1 and 7D are both very intregueing. I like the 4/3 idea, and image stabilization in-camera is an excellent idea (we will see if it can survive the rigors of exposure to the elements). For now I'm just enjoying the D70 for what it is, a nice tool.

eagle17
11-07-2004, 02:24 PM
Wishbone, why do you leave off canon? bad experience? In my view they have a ton of lens's and accesories which give them an advantage over some of the brands you list.

also George, I like the idea of bulit in image stabilization however all of the info I have seen claims that you will have to use new lenses made for the 7d and the KM lenses that are out now will not work. If third party lenses are not delveloped by sigma, kenko, tamaron, etc. then it may be hard to justify.

D70FAN
11-07-2004, 10:29 PM
Wishbone, why do you leave off canon? bad experience? In my view they have a ton of lens's and accesories which give them an advantage over some of the brands you list.

also George, I like the idea of bulit in image stabilization however all of the info I have seen claims that you will have to use new lenses made for the 7d and the KM lenses that are out now will not work. If third party lenses are not delveloped by sigma, kenko, tamaron, etc. then it may be hard to justify.

Haven't seen that information. Not being able to use old lenses will definately be a bummer for Minolta SLR folks. We'll see. But still a great idea. As is the 4/3 imager for Olympus. Yet another lens challenge.

Wishbone probably should add the DReb and 20D to the list.

wishbone
11-07-2004, 11:00 PM
I have added the 20d to my list. Part of what I do for a living is marketing, and I am not that wild about how Canon has handled their product life cycle, but after looking at some 20D reviews, photo's, and lense options, that really is not a smart idea to not look at it.

I hadn't heard any of that about the Minolta, my understanding was that with the sensor size and how AS works, there will not be any problems with older lenses, although some of the digital only lenses might not work as well.

Realistically, my choice will come down to perceived benefits of some of the differentiating factors: Size and dust prevention on the Olympus, ISO performance of the Canon, AS for the Minolta, or Custom Curve ability of the D70.

One other factor I will also look at is image quality in auto mode...my wife will use the camera as much as I will, and while she does shoot in A with our current camera (Dimage 5), the ability to grab it and get good images in auto mode is important to her.

D70FAN
11-08-2004, 08:52 AM
I hadn't heard any of that about the Minolta, my understanding was that with the sensor size and how AS works, there will not be any problems with older lenses, although some of the digital only lenses might not work as well.

Realistically, my choice will come down to perceived benefits of some of the differentiating factors: Size and dust prevention on the Olympus, ISO performance of the Canon, AS for the Minolta, or Custom Curve ability of the D70.

One other factor I will also look at is image quality in auto mode...my wife will use the camera as much as I will, and while she does shoot in A with our current camera (Dimage 5), the ability to grab it and get good images in auto mode is important to her.

I think it is the 4/3 sensor on the Olympus that will have a problem with lenses designed for APS-C (most dSLR's) due to vignetting. The KM should not have that problem, but again we'll see when they hit the market.

In my case it's a "don't care" as the D70 more than meets my needs, there are a ton of lenses and accessories available, and my wife can easily use it as well (even in aperture priority mode). Auto mode does require a one-time, review and set-up, of the variables, but once that's done anyone can use the camera.

Good luck on choosing, just keep in mind that any, and all, of these cameras will give quality images (not just good), and you really can't make a wrong choice.

wishbone
11-08-2004, 12:39 PM
I don't think the 4/3 sensor will have problems with vignetting, isn't the 4/3 sensor smaller than the APS-C? We'll know soon enough on the KM, hopefully some images will be released soon.

Looking at some of the images out on pbase, I've got to say the 20D and D70 have definitely taken the lead, although the Sigma SD10 is an impressive beast in the right conditions. We'll see what the KM looks like when it is released, but it might end up being between the Canon and Nikon.

I also prefer the simple lense choices for the Nikon, Canon, or Sigma models. KM does not seem to have an 18-70 option available, although I expect a lense or two will be coming shortly after release. The 18-125 and 70-300 APO are available for the Canon, Nikon, and Sigma, and all seem to be a good starting point until I determine what other needs I might have.

D70FAN
11-08-2004, 03:28 PM
I don't think the 4/3 sensor will have problems with vignetting, isn't the 4/3 sensor smaller than the APS-C? We'll know soon enough on the KM, hopefully some images will be released soon.

Looking at some of the images out on pbase, I've got to say the 20D and D70 have definitely taken the lead, although the Sigma SD10 is an impressive beast in the right conditions. We'll see what the KM looks like when it is released, but it might end up being between the Canon and Nikon.

I also prefer the simple lense choices for the Nikon, Canon, or Sigma models. KM does not seem to have an 18-70 option available, although I expect a lense or two will be coming shortly after release. The 18-125 and 70-300 APO are available for the Canon, Nikon, and Sigma, and all seem to be a good starting point until I determine what other needs I might have.

Yup, I think you are correct on the 4/3 sensor, as I just read the IR preview, and they do reference older lenses as usable (even though it's a 2x crop), and the smaller sensor being vulnerabe to noise above ISO800. Not necessarily a show stopper.

I was thinking full frame. Sorry about the lapse.

I also keep forgetting that the KM-7D is in the $1600 range. Even with AS I'm now thinking that that may be a bit over the top, and I would still be concerned with the longevity of the mechanical part of the AS system. This concern applies to the Olympus as well with the ultra-sonic sensor cleaner.

There are a few other disapplointments with the E300 ergonomics, like lack of an information LCD, and the odd popup flash and hotshoe arrangement, but they have always marched to the beat of a different drummer. Not always a bad thing, but when you are competing with the likes of the D70, all of those little things count.

Again, in the end, none of these things will make you a better photographer, but they certainly enter into the purchase price.

wishbone
11-08-2004, 06:05 PM
I was fairly confident I was going to get the D7D, as I have absolutely loved my Dimage 5, but the price is more than I was hoping for. We'll see how it looks after the production model is released and the reviews start coming in.

I agree, no camera will make one a better photographer. It's been interesting, the more I read the more I see each model has something that differentiates it from the rest, but I am starting the think the D70 is hard to beat when combining what it can do with it's price. It does most everything well, little poorly.

And at this point, anyh DSLR is far beyond my current skill as a photographer :)

eagle17
11-08-2004, 06:17 PM
my mistake it was the olympus that I was refering to the lens availability with... there are so many dslr's coming out this year it has caused too much brain overload....

I can't wait to see some reviews of the built in anti-shake and how it compares to the gyroscope bases lenses stabilization method of other vendors. the price is a little steep but if you look at the price of stabilized lenses then it easily makes up for it with just two lens purchases.

D70FAN
11-08-2004, 09:43 PM
my mistake it was the olympus that I was refering to the lens availability with... there are so many dslr's coming out this year it has caused too much brain overload....

I can't wait to see some reviews of the built in anti-shake and how it compares to the gyroscope bases lenses stabilization method of other vendors. the price is a little steep but if you look at the price of stabilized lenses then it easily makes up for it with just two lens purchases.

Yes, I agree that AS is intregueing, but like any electro-mechanical function I am concerned with reliability. If the AS function fails, what will be the cost of repair?

If you want to know if/how it works just check out the A2. Same system and so far so good, but the A2 is a sealed unit, where the 7D sensor is occasionally exposed to the environment.

I guess time will tell.

mpop2002
11-20-2004, 08:37 AM
Hey
I am not an expert photographer, but am a good photographer who has used both Canon, Nikon and Minolta cameras and follow all the major reviews of these particular cameras. I am going to say right now, according to reviews at dcresource.com, cnet.com reviews, dreview.com and several other notable sites. There is a MAJOR difference between the Nikon d70 and the Canon EOS 20d. 1) Canon is noticably faster and achieves 5fps with people saying that they have even gotten more than 60 shots continuouly and one person who got more than 144 fps in a more fine mode. 2) The canon gets better ISO resolutions with less noise, and better low light pictures than the Nikon and this is a significant difference between the two camera's. 3) when regarding pictures printed at 8x10 and 13X9, higher pixel count is always..always better and the Nikon d70 has a lower pixel count 6.1 vs 8.2 of the 20d. I am not putting now Nikon, of the camera's that i was deciding between it was the Nikon d70 or the Canon Digital Rebel up until a trip to Tibet and a chance to use a friends Canon 20D popped up and i used it, it produced spectacular shots and i mean picture perfect shots that in no way can be matched by Nikon or the Rebel. If you are a new photographer and are thinking about buying a camera, your best choices in the under 3000 price range are the Canon 20d and Nikon d70, if you cant afford the 20d do the nikon, but i would recommend any day of the week that you shell out the extra money because the 20d incorporates the same 8.2 megapixel cmos as found on the Canon 1d Mark II and has more generations than Nikon in the Digital SLR market and the Digital Market in General. Fuji might look good on paper and use nikon lenses, Minolta may look snazzy and Olympus can dream cant it, but it comes down to Nikon and Canon and Canon has the clear hand now and if you really want top end, shell out 8 g's for the Canon 1Ds Mark II with a 16.7 MP CMOS!!!!

D70FAN
11-20-2004, 07:06 PM
Hey
I am not an expert photographer, but am a good photographer who has used both Canon, Nikon and Minolta cameras and follow all the major reviews of these particular cameras. I am going to say right now, according to reviews at dcresource.com, cnet.com reviews, dreview.com and several other notable sites. There is a MAJOR difference between the Nikon d70 and the Canon EOS 20d. 1) Canon is noticably faster and achieves 5fps with people saying that they have even gotten more than 60 shots continuouly and one person who got more than 144 fps in a more fine mode. 2) The canon gets better ISO resolutions with less noise, and better low light pictures than the Nikon and this is a significant difference between the two camera's. 3) when regarding pictures printed at 8x10 and 13X9, higher pixel count is always..always better and the Nikon d70 has a lower pixel count 6.1 vs 8.2 of the 20d. I am not putting now Nikon, of the camera's that i was deciding between it was the Nikon d70 or the Canon Digital Rebel up until a trip to Tibet and a chance to use a friends Canon 20D popped up and i used it, it produced spectacular shots and i mean picture perfect shots that in no way can be matched by Nikon or the Rebel. If you are a new photographer and are thinking about buying a camera, your best choices in the under 3000 price range are the Canon 20d and Nikon d70, if you cant afford the 20d do the nikon, but i would recommend any day of the week that you shell out the extra money because the 20d incorporates the same 8.2 megapixel cmos as found on the Canon 1d Mark II and has more generations than Nikon in the Digital SLR market and the Digital Market in General. Fuji might look good on paper and use nikon lenses, Minolta may look snazzy and Olympus can dream cant it, but it comes down to Nikon and Canon and Canon has the clear hand now and if you really want top end, shell out 8 g's for the Canon 1Ds Mark II with a 16.7 MP CMOS!!!!

:rolleyes:

jer9ball
12-03-2004, 01:12 PM
mpop2002: You've made some odd claims. 144fps must be a typo. ISO has nothing to do with resolution. Higher pixel count is not always better, if the pixel density exceeds what the technology can support with low noise levels.

jer

Dan
12-14-2004, 09:58 AM
I was considering D70 (awarded "Camera of the year") seriously after having gone through some available reviews (lots of extensive materials available) on the internet, together with a few other DSLRs. Depending on what you're looking for, need and budget, you may want to include the E-300 of Olympus ("Evolt") in your shortlist.. After matching my wishlists (entry level to advance) with the price performance reviews/previews, I ended buying the "Evolt" last Saturday (after doing a bit of hunting around, as stock is hard as of date, at least here in Canada). You may want to check out my initial (beginer's) observations on the camera (Olympus D SLR thread). Hope this helps. Good luck. :)