CCD and CMOS

[George Riehm]

Here is a little lite reading for those interested in where whese technologies are, and where they are heading. This may also help answer the question about what sensor size Canon will choose for the 20D replacement, and why that may be a tougher assignment than you think. It also may help to explain why Nikon went back to a CCD for the D200 after using CMOS on their flagship D2X. And why (very expensive) medium format digital backs, and cameras, are using CCD.

The first is the main article, and sub article(s) (also highlited and accessable from the main text). The Litwiller piece is well done and relatively easy reading.

Enjoy.

http://www.dalsa.com/markets/ccd_vs_cmos.asp

http://www.dalsa.com/shared/content/pdfs/CCD_vs_CMOS_Litwiller_2005.pdf

[coldrain]

Can someone ask George, who comes back at this same point over and over, why the Canon EOS 20D with its 8mp 1.6 x crop factor CMOS perfoms better than the Nikon D50 with a 6mp 1.5x crop factor CCD?

According to George and the atricles he tends to choose to prove this point over and over again, the D50 should perform a lot better, since it has only 6mp, and on a larger sensor, and above all, it is CCD?

And while that someone is at it, can that someone ask George why the D2X performs better at ISO 400 than the D50 (D50 being less noisy than the D70)?
I mean, with 12.x mp CMOS... on the same surface than 6mp CCD pixels...

And why does the 5D with 12.x mp perform so ridiculously a lot better than the 10mp D200? In noise, and in dynamic range? After all, with a CMOS the 5D would even at full frame have to struggle to keep up with the D200's CCD technology.... Or... why does the EOS 1Ds mk II 16.x mp perform better than the D200... after all, at a crop factor of 1.5 and 10mp, the Nikon's sensor is verrrry close to 16mp at 1x crop....

I asked George many times, I told him maybe things were not so black and white (and have not been ever since Canon came with their own DSLR's, replacing the EOS DCS 1 from Kodak), and maybe all these articles are written based on knowledge from YEARS ago, not keeping up wih developments (or able to keep up, because Canon (and Sony and samsung) do not want to have people look in their kitchen)).

Thing is, George, if you are reading this, time and time again the Canon DSLR's outperform colour and noise wise the CCD competition, sometimes by a smaller, sometimes by a bigger margin. And if CMOS from Canon would be less than CCD from Sony, this would be simply impossible... unless Canon would have rigorous noise filters.... but they don't.... their cameras are as sharp as anything on the market... except the D70(s).... because they over process a lot.... creating artifacts...)
Yet you keep on bringing this up, about every 2 months I guess. Like you, as Nikon D70 owner, have something to prove. The same as your most asked question of the last 3 months: "It is so silent on Canon Land, the Nikon D200 must have taken them by surprise". Yes George, it was rather surprising we had to wait 4 years for a successor for the D100. And it is rather surprising it does not perform better than it does (http://www.potatobear.com/ND200/D200F.htm), after all, they had 4 years to develop it. And they did not even have to develop the sensor themselves.
yes, I know it is not fair to compare the full frame 5D with the 1.5x crop factor D200. Or is it? After all, the 5D is severely hampered by its CMOS technology....

So, George, can YOU ask yoruself that question? Why, when CCD is much better than CMOS, teh D70(s)/D50 does not perform as well as a 20D? And no, the answer may not be "because Canon uses severe noise reduction", because that is simple not true.

Well, maybe George is not reading this... and maybe no one will ask him... So I guess perhaps we will have to see a similar post in another 2 months time.
When George is bored.

;)
*rant finished for now... thanks for reading... George(?)*

[George Riehm]

I thought that you might want to actually know what is going on out there. So I posted the information, and stated my thoughts on it.

If you take the time to read the material you will find that CMOS has indeed made significant strides, and I may not be disagreeing with you after all.

The last time I checked it was still ok to post links to interesting articles, and voice an opinion. So I will continue to do so until the owner of this board asks me not to.

[wxcloud9xw]

LoL:p Coldrain.
Soo true:rolleyes:

[coldrain]

I thought that you might want to actually know what is going on out there. So I posted the information, and stated my thoughts on it.

If you take the time to read the material you will find that CMOS has indeed made significant strides, and I may not be disagreeing with you after all.

The last time I checked it was still ok to post links to interesting articles, and voice an opinion. So I will continue to do so until the owner of this board asks me not to.
That you post links is great. My response was about the spin you give it. The 20D sensor size blahblah. I never said you can not give your spin either. I just keep wondering why it keeps coming up so often, and it is like you never read anything that was responded the last time around. Or why you never respond to any point in this area (like: why does the 20D with CMOS perform better than the D70s with CCD).

If i gave you the impression that I wanted to keep you from posting your posts, I apologize. I just have some critisizm, which I am sure you think is alright too.
Just being my critical self, George :)

[George Riehm]

That you post links is great. My response was about the spin you give it. The 20D sensor size blahblah. I never said you can not give your spin either. I just keep wondering why it keeps coming up so often, and it is like you never read anything that was responded the last time around. Or why you never respond to any point in this area (like: why does the 20D with CMOS perform better than the D70s with CCD).

The 20D does perform better than the D70s, no argument there. I have even considered changing systems, but I use spot metering and like Nikons flash system, so I can live with the difference. Also for $400 more, the 20D should be (much) better. Even the 350D has better image quality than the D70s, and I think that I have voiced my opinion on what a dumb move the D70s represented on Nikons part.

I don't think my last post said anything negative about the 20D other than to say that Canon is going to have a tough time replacing it. I'm still not convinced that they can squeeze enough performance out of a 10MP or 12MP 1.6X CMOS sensor. But, if they do go with that size then you are right and I am wrong. I'm just trying to make an educated guess on the future, and you keep bringing up the past. Anyway, just read the article.


If i gave you the impression that I wanted to keep you from posting your posts, I apologize. I just have some critisizm, which I am sure you think is alright too.
Just being my critical self, George :)

Just try to tone it down a little. I don't have stock in Nikon and my only interest is that they do something right so that I and other Nikon owners can benefit. Recently all they have done is piss me off. The jury is still out on the D200 and the new 18-200 VR. the D50 is about the only shining star since the D70 2 years ago (before the 20D).

The article was posted to help people understand the differences and challenges of imager design and manufacture. Nothing more, and nothing less.

[cwphoto]

"It is so silent on Canon Land, the Nikon D200 must have taken them by surprise". Yes George, it was rather surprising we had to wait 4 years for a successor for the D100.

Laughing my arse off here.:D

[cdifoto]

I don't spend too much time reading what George writes anymore.

[Clyde]

I don't spend too much time reading what George writes anymore.

Then why do you bother replying to his threads?

[Vich]

Thanks George!

You should know better than to discuss religion in a public forum!

[TheObiJuan]

thanks for the links george.
coldrain, thanks for the input from the other side. :D

[cdifoto]

Then why do you bother replying to his threads?

Just proving a point to Coldrain...that if he's gonna get worked up over a thread, it's best not to read it.

[George Riehm]

thanks for the links george.
coldrain, thanks for the input from the other side. :D

Juan, you're welcome.

[erichlund]

Thanks George. Interesting read. I have bias toward simpler solutions, so conceptually the CCD appeals to me. It's interesting though, how the costs have come to level out.

They didn't directly address the CMOS limitation, other than to recognize that the CMOS needs to be developed on a much finer 18microMeter (or is that nano) technology, versus an uspecified larger format for CCD. Extrapolating, it seems CCD has more room for long run miniaturization based on this information, since they still have room to move to finer grain manufacturing technologies.

Of course, the above just makes sense, since with CCD, the sensor is dedicated to a single purpose, sensing, and processing is done elsewhere.

Cheers,
Eric

[George Riehm]

Thanks George. Interesting read. I have bias toward simpler solutions, so conceptually the CCD appeals to me. It's interesting though, how the costs have come to level out.

They didn't directly address the CMOS limitation, other than to recognize that the CMOS needs to be developed on a much finer 18microMeter (or is that nano) technology, versus an uspecified larger format for CCD. Extrapolating, it seems CCD has more room for long run miniaturization based on this information, since they still have room to move to finer grain manufacturing technologies.

Of course, the above just makes sense, since with CCD, the sensor is dedicated to a single purpose, sensing, and processing is done elsewhere.

Cheers,
Eric

Glad you liked the article. I think it explained a lot as far as why decisions are made for one technology or the other.

Anyway, thanks for actually reading the article, and the feedback. I will try to hunt down updates as they are published.

[Vich]

Just proving a point to Coldrain...that if he's gonna get worked up over a thread, it's best not to read it.

Good point.

I've always found George's posts enlightening and a model of respectful communication. I presumed your comment was somehow humor but it went over my head. I sort of get a kick out of Coldrain's approach although I think the non-regulars may find it a little offensive at times. We have all the color of just about any small town barber shop.

Thanks for the links George, always good to keep abreast of developments, and thanks for the opposing feedback Coldrain, always good to read opposing arguements, as it were.