Moving up

[Glen]

Looking for advice on the right camera for me. Have been shooting for decades, most recently using Nikon F-801s. Recently got a Sony Cybershot DSC-P8 to try going digital. Benefits are great but that camera is way too limited so looking to move up. Nikon D70s or D200 seem possible. Wondering if the 23.6 x 15.8 mm CCD will mean my lenses are less effective than with 35 mm film. Like to keep using my Speedlight unless the built-in flash is "good enough". Answers to your questionaire ...

Budget - not a major issue
Size - full body "SLR" with replacable lenses
Features
- minimum 4 Megapx
- optical zoom - not sure
- image quality is VERY important
- manual controls a must
General Usage
- travel, animals, closeups, people, scenery
- big prints of the best shots only
- indoor no, low light yes
- sports and/or action photos from time to time
Miscellaneous
- I already have several AF Nikkor lenses I'd like to keep using
- considering Nikon D70s, D200
- desire Wide Angle, Image Stabilization, Weatherproof, Hotshoe

[Rex914]

The D200 is a very, very nice camera, and the only true unknown at this point is optical quality, but what's the chance of that bombing out?

The D200 is a $1700 camera while the D70S is $900. That's almost a two fold difference. But you also have a old flash and some old lenses (which ones?), so you're not starting out completely from scratch.

The biggest differences between the D200 and D70s are in build quality, handling, ergonomics and usage through the larger and brighter viewfinder and the superior AF system. I highly doubt that the image quality (while 4 MP more) will be much different. So it becomes a question of whether you a) want to spend $1700 and b) want the improvements I just described.

I'm personally looking at a D200, and the biggest thing going against it for the next month or so is availibility and the possibility of bugs / issues in the first batch. Other than that, it's a heck of a camera if you're willing to fork over $1700, and I'd take it over a D70s anyday. :)

[wxcloud9xw]

You'll find that the D70/s overprocesses the photos sometimes, which often results in artifacts and moire. I've seen quite a few photos from the d200 from foreign websites and the images are much less processed and smoother like the canon 20D. Didn't see any artifacts in any of the shots so far or moire yet...but I haven't seen any shots of buildings with fine details yet where moire can pop up. I'm 99% sure Nikon has listened and fixed this considering the images look a lot smoother"silky smooth".

[Glen]

You'll find that the D70/s overprocesses the photos sometimes, which often results in artifacts and moire. <snip> I'm 99% sure Nikon has listened and fixed this considering the images look a lot smoother"silky smooth".

Are you suggesting that the overprocessing was an issue in the earlier software in the body, but MAY not be an issue now?

[Glen]

The D200 is a $1700 camera while the D70S is $900. That's almost a two fold difference. But you also have a old flash and some old lenses (which ones?), so you're not starting out completely from scratch. <SNIP> I'm personally looking at a D200, and the biggest thing going against it for the next month or so is availibility and the possibility of bugs / issues in the first batch.

That is a big $ jump - hadn't looked that far into it yet. Still, I'm tempted. I presume that the D200 is a much more recent release and thus the jury is still out on the quality of the software in the body?

My existing equipment includes a bag full of gear and filters plus AF Nikkor 28-70, AF Nikkor 70-210 and Speedlight SB-25. Nothing fancy, but a shame to not be able to use any more!

Are there other DSLR manufacturers that support attachment of those? Is the resale on that stuff, and the F-801s body, likely to be any good?

[Rex914]

That is a big $ jump - hadn't looked that far into it yet. Still, I'm tempted. I presume that the D200 is a much more recent release and thus the jury is still out on the quality of the software in the body?

My existing equipment includes a bag full of gear and filters plus AF Nikkor 28-70, AF Nikkor 70-210 and Speedlight SB-25. Nothing fancy, but a shame to not be able to use any more!

Are there other DSLR manufacturers that support attachment of those? Is the resale on that stuff, and the F-801s body, likely to be any good?
The D200 launches this week, so apart from hands on tests (which confirm that the build quality and handling are top rate), there hasn't been any hard test of optical quality. I believe that your lenses should work. Even some of the manual focus lenses work too on the D200. Is that the 28-70mm f/2.8 you're speaking of? That's a really nice lens...

Compatibility Chart

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/NikonD200/Images/lenscompatible.gif

[wxcloud9xw]

This is a post that shows the overprocessing figures in the nikon line.

Originally Posted by coldrain
Where do you get from that the D50 has "less detail"? Nikon also over processes in the D50, resulting in these resulting resolution figures:
Nikon D50 with f2.8 60mm Micro D:
ISO 200, line pairs per image height 983
ISO 400, line pairs per image height 975
Noise at ISO 200: 74.8 dB S/N

Nikon D70 with f2.8 60mm Micro D:
ISO 200, line pairs per image height 1118
ISO 400, line pairs per image height 1090
Noise at ISO 200: 64.1 dB S/N

Nikon D70s with f2.8 60mm Micro D:
ISO 200, line pairs per image height 1072
ISO 400, line pairs per image height 985
Noise at ISO 200: 71.5 dB S/N

All have the same processor, Nikon is just playing with the processing of the CCD data.... As you can see Nikon decided to less overprocess with the D70s compared to the D70 after all the critisizm of moire and artifacts, their over processing to gain detail pre post processing blew up in their face. (Yes, Nikon DOES process quite heavily in the D70(s)/D50 George, thats why they seem to gain such a resolution advantage... but gaining artifacts in the process).

For comparison the same figures for 2 cameras with the same Sony CCD:
Konica Minolta 7D with AF f2.8 50mm Macro:
ISO 100, line pairs per image height 835
ISO 400, line pairs per image height 798
Noise at ISO 100: 72.3 dB S/N

Pentax *istDS with SMC-S-FA f2.8 100mm Macro:
ISO 100, line pairs per image height 822
ISO 400, line pairs per image height 823
Noise at ISO 100: 69.4 dB S/N

And the 20D with 8mp CMOS:
Canon 20D with EF f2.5 50mm Macro:
ISO 100, line pairs per image height 1010
ISO 400, line pairs per image height 1017
Noise at ISO 200: 73.7 dB S/N

The Pentax and Canon do NOT show the artifacts the Nikons (and especially the D70) show, and as you can see in these figures, the Nikons really DO process a lot to gain resolution in-camera (also in RAW) to give the idea of higher resolution than competitors (who leave the CMOS/CCD data "soft" to allow for post processing without the artifacts). Quit turning it around by saying "loss of detail" when what is going on is that Nikon processes its CCD information and sharpen to such an extent and which such algorythims that artifacts pop up. It has NOTHING to do with Canon having to use a lot of noise reduction. DSLR's just do not usually sharpen so much, with the exception of the D70/D70s/D50.

[Glen]

The D200 launches this week, so apart from hands on tests (which confirm that the build quality and handling are top rate), there hasn't been any hard test of optical quality. I believe that your lenses should work. Even some of the manual focus lenses work too on the D200. Is that the 28-70mm f/2.8 you're speaking of? That's a really nice lens... Compatibility Chart

I not in the market to purchase until Q1/06 so maybe we'll know more about the D200 then - I'll keep it on my "maybe" list.

The Compatability Chart is interesting, but I need to see all the "notes" associated with various combinations to make full sense of it. Where did you see this, can I see the original document?

My 28-70 was purchased when I was poorer <grin> so it is a 3.5-4.5 not a 2.8! Upgrade the body, then the lenses .....

[Glen]

This is a post that shows the overprocessing figures in the Nikon line.

Not sure I know how to interpret all that data correctly, but it looks like the D70 is the best of them all just in terms of the noise, and it might be the best in terms of line pairs as well. Wonder how the D200 fares on this scale?

Help me also with the sharpening that you say is at the root of it all. Is there a particular set of shooting situations where this is of a serious enough impact that I'd wish I was using a different body?

[Rex914]

Whoops, you might have needed these. :)

IX Nikkor lenses can not be used.
Vibration Reduction (VR) supported with VR lenses.
Spot metering meters selected focus area.
The camera’s exposure metering and flash control systems do not work properly when shifting and/or tilting the lens, or when an aperture other than the maximum aperture is used.
Electronic range finder can not be used with shifting or tilting.
Manual exposure mode only.
Compatible with AF-I Nikkor lenses and with all AF-S lenses except DX ED 12-24 mm f/4G and AF-S series ED 17-35 mm f/2.8D, DX 17-55 mm f/2.8G, ED 24-85 mm f/3.5-4.5G, VR ED 24-120 mm f/3.5-5.6G, and ED 28-70 mm f/2.8D.
With maximum effective aperture of f/5.6 or faster.
If AF 80-200 mm f/2.8S, AF 35-70 mm f/2.8S, new-model AF 28-85 mm f/3.5-4.5S, or AF 28-85 mm f/3.5-4.5S is zoomed in while focusing at minimum range, image on matte screen in viewfinder may not be in focus when in-focus indicator is displayed. Focus manually using image in viewfinder as guide.
With maximum aperture of f/5.6 or faster.
Some lenses can not be used (see following page).
Range of rotation for Ai 80-200 mm f/2.8S ED tripod mount limited by camera body. Filters can not be exchanged while Ai 200-400 mm f/4S ED is mounted on camera.
If maximum aperture is specified using Non-CPU Lens Data option in shooting menu, aperture value will be displayed in viewfinder and control panel.
Can be used only if lens focal length and maximum aperture are specified using Non-CPU Lens Data option in shooting menu. Use spot or center-weighted metering if desired results are not achieved.
For improved precision, specify lens focal length and maximum aperture using Non-CPU Lens Data option in shooting menu.
Can be used at in manual exposure modes at shutter speeds slower than 1/125 s. If maximum aperture is specified using Non-CPU Lens Data option in shooting menu, aperture value will be displayed in viewfinder and control panel.
Exposure determined by presetting lens aperture. In aperture- priority auto exposure mode, preset aperture using lens aperture ring before performing AE lock or shifting lens. In manual exposure mode, preset aperture using lens aperturering and determine exposure before shifting lens.
Exposure compensation required when used with AI 28-85 mm f/3.5-4.5S, AI 35-105 mm f/3.5-4.5S, AI 35-135 mm f/3.5-4.5S, or AF-S 80-200 mm f/2.8D. See teleconverter manual for details.
Requires PK-12 or PK-13 auto extension ring.
Use preset aperture. In exposure mode A, set aperture using focusing attachment before determining exposure and taking photograph.

[wxcloud9xw]

D70 is the worst on artifacts and overprocessing and moire effects. D70s is slightly better. If I had to pick from the three d50, d70, d70s...I would pick the d50 because it has cleaner images at higher ISOs. If you've got Nikon lenses I'd stick with Nikon...maybe wait/save for the d200...thats what I'd do.

[Glen]

D70 is the worst on artifacts and overprocessing and moire effects. D70s is slightly better. If I had to pick from the three d50, d70, d70s...I would pick the d50 because it has cleaner images at higher ISOs. If you've got Nikon lenses I'd stick with Nikon...maybe wait/save for the d200...thats what I'd do.

Ooopppps, yup, S/N is signal to noise, not noise to signal. Higher is better. On that scale, D50 is the best of the 6, but it has less features I think I want so I was trying to figure out if the artifacts would actually cause me problems in any real-life situations.