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Badams
10-08-2004, 07:38 AM
What are the differences between the canon 20D and Nikon D70? im looking to get into wildlife photography. However, Im just a little lost when it comes to comparing the specs between each model.

D70FAN
10-08-2004, 10:16 AM
What are the differences between the canon 20D and Nikon D70? im looking to get into wildlife photography. However, Im just a little lost when it comes to comparing the specs between each model.

Either camera (plus maybe several others) would meet your needs. But a cheaper (overall) solution might be an Ultra Zoom, all-in-one, with image stabilized lens, like the Panasonic FZ20. Several of the contributors to this board are "birders" and the results with the Panasonics have been stunning.

But as fare as the cameras in qustion go, the basic difference is: the 20D is an 8 MegaPixel camera and the D70 is a 6 MegaPixel camera. Beyond that the feature sets are similar with some kudos going to the D70 and some to the 20D.

It is clear that Canon decided to build a camera that bridges the gap between a pro-sumer dSLR and a professional dSLR. With a body costing $500 more than the D70, Canon added a magnesium alloy frame, USB 2.0 and faster continuous shooting mode (5fps vs. 3fps on the D70).

The value of magnesium alloy body, and on-camera USB2.0 is lost on me as I always use a card reader anyway. I suppose it would come in handy for 802.11 wireless transmission if it were available. But here again, who would use it? Just to set the record straight, this is not a photo-journalist grade camera, but it is damn nice. The extra frames per second in continuous mode would be useful, but again not critical in all but sports photography.

That said, I own a D70 and have been very pleased with the camera in all types of shooting situations, from hiking the rim of the Grand Canyon, to family get togethers, to portraits. It is exactly what I was looking for in a dSLR and more than I had in any of my previous film or digital cameras.

13 x 19 prints turn out extremely nice, and the camera is unbelievably fast, not only in normal capture situations, but in control layout for fast changes to ISO, EV, Shooting mode, White Balance, and flash modes. Most recently I finally used the 1/500 sec. flash sync as a shadow-fill in bright sunlight, and the result was very nice. This is one of the overlooked unique features of the D70.

When the 20D was first introduced I was ready to jump ship to the Canon, as the 8MP sensor and faster 5fps shooting of the 20D was pretty compelling, but after careful evaluation I discovered that the improvements offered in the 20D were things that I didn't care about, and that the extra $500 would pay for an SB800 flash, a remote shutter release, and a 1GB Ultra II CF card, with a few bucks left over for a nice dinner.

In the end it will come down to what you like, and weather or not you own Canon glass, or Nikon glass, and what your next camera might be, if any. As, generally speaking, once you commit to a brand, and all your auxilliary investment is made, you tend to stay with that brand. Incidently, the investment in lenses, flashes, and other items will end up being equal to, or greater than the cost of the camera.

Both Canon and Nikon have some very compelling dSLR photographic vehicles on the market. But there are other new dSLR's due out from Fuji (S3), Minolta (7D), and Pentax (*ist DS) that may be just as compelling.

The Fuji S3 uses a Nikon based body and glass/accessories with a new and interesting Super CCD (II) sensor, and is targeted at a price just above the Canon 20D market segment in the sub $2000 range.

The Minolta and Pentax dSLR's appear to be competing in the Canon 300D domain (sub $800 market), and shooting for the, high end, all-in-one buyer. These are all worth a look as they might meet your needs for a dSLR, that you may not have considered.

Unfortunately, there is no upward migration path with these cameras, as they don't compete in the high end professional dSLR market (i.e. Canon 1D & 1Ds MK II's, and the Nikon D2X). But to the average amature, without aspirations of making a living in photography, this has no real value, other than technical trickle-down, as exhibited by the D70 and 20D.

Again, you will not be disappointed with either the D70 or 20D, (or even the FZ20 for that matter). I would recommend that you put in a little hands-on time with all of the cameras I have mentioned, and then buy the one that meets your requirements, and not based on some arbitrary specifications.

Badams
10-08-2004, 11:02 PM
so, in what U said the canon and the Nikon are almost exactly the same except for the mega pixels. What im looking for in a digital camera is FPS. the FPS and the write speed from the camera to the card goes, is one faster than the other or are they the same?
now, the CF cards you can get for the cameras come in diferent speeds right?
is there one that you "push the button and it puts it right on the card" Ive seen several on the market, which one do you use?

leewitt
10-09-2004, 07:05 AM
If you do wildlife, many good opportunities will likely be in low light. This means that you should consider the brightness of the lens, the possibility of IS (or VR or antishake) and the ISO capability of whatever you purchase. Speed of operation can be an issue for "pictures of opportunity." Hope this helps.

D70FAN
10-09-2004, 08:25 AM
so, in what U said the canon and the Nikon are almost exactly the same except for the mega pixels. What im looking for in a digital camera is FPS. the FPS and the write speed from the camera to the card goes, is one faster than the other or are they the same?
now, the CF cards you can get for the cameras come in diferent speeds right?
is there one that you "push the button and it puts it right on the card" Ive seen several on the market, which one do you use?

The Canon is the faster of the two, at 5fps vs. 3fps for the D70. The D70 does have a unique feature in that, if you shoot in MPEG medium, the camera will not pause to download the buffer (assuming you use a very fast CF card) so you can shoot at 3fps until the memory card is full. Since the 20D is not yet in the "CF database" I'm not sure what the buffer to CF card speed is, but Robs team is working on it. Here is the reference page:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007

To my knowlege there are no cameras that bypass the buffer, as the buffer memory (which is DRAM) is many times faster than flash memory and the CF card control interface. Bypassing the buffer would actually slow the continuous framerate considerably, which is why it is there. The bigger the buffer the more frames-per-second you can shoot until the buffer is full, and it has to download to the flash memory card.

I'm not sure wheather it is cost or reliability, or both, that limits the amount of buffer DRAM, as DRAM is very fast, but "volitile", where flash memory is much slower, but "non-volitile". "Volitile" in this case means that when poser is removed the data is lost.

Hope this helps.

Badams
10-09-2004, 11:46 AM
what is a "very fast" mean? What type cuz there are several out on the market.

Badams
10-09-2004, 11:54 AM
I really dont understand your statement, "I'm not sure wheather it is cost or reliability, or both, that limits the amount of buffer DRAM, as DRAM is very fast, but "volitile", where flash memory is much slower, but "non-volitile". "Volitile" in this case means that when poser is removed the data is lost."

Does it mean that Dram is not reliable? Where does DRAM come into paly with cameras, does the camera store photos on Dram, and when it is full it puts files onto CF card?

D70FAN
10-10-2004, 12:28 AM
I really dont understand your statement, "I'm not sure wheather it is cost or reliability, or both, that limits the amount of buffer DRAM, as DRAM is very fast, but "volitile", where flash memory is much slower, but "non-volitile". "Volitile" in this case means that when power is removed the data is lost."

Does it mean that Dram is not reliable? Where does DRAM come into paly with cameras, does the camera store photos on Dram, and when it is full it puts files onto CF card?

Sorry to confuse...

It means that Dynamic Read And Write Memory (DRAM for short) cannot maintain stored data without power. Flash memory can maintain stored data after power is removed.

Again, since DRAM is very fast it is used as camera buffer memory. It is very reliable, but when you turn off the power DRAM loses all of its data. But don't worry the data download, to the flash card, is completed (by the cameras processor) before shutdown. That is why flash memory is used for actually storing your pictures (data) as it can retain the data after power is removed.

Normally, in single shot mode, the camera has time to empty the buffer (to the flash card) after each shot, but in continuous shooting mode the flash card can't keep up with the data rate (as again it is slower than the buffer memory) and eventually must pause to empty enough buffer space to allow the next shot. If you continue to hold the shutter button down the frame rate is limited to the flash card and camera processor interface speed. When you are finished shooting the sequence, the buffer has time to fully empty, and you can again shoot, at a higher frame rate, until the buffer is full.

Hope this makes the process a little clearer.

Ant
10-10-2004, 10:55 AM
it means that Dynamic Read And Write Memory (DRAM for short)

Actually, Mr. Picky would just like to point out that DRAM, in fact stands, for Dynamic Random Access Memory. ;) But the rest of the info is good :)

D70FAN
10-10-2004, 02:52 PM
Actually, Mr. Picky would just like to point out that DRAM, in fact stands, for Dynamic Random Access Memory. ;) But the rest of the info is good :)

Thanks for the correction Mr. Picky.:D That will teach me to write when I'm half asleep. Brain was not fully engaged, so not really sure where the hell that description came from. :o

Badams
10-11-2004, 01:25 PM
so, in other words the Dram acts a a temporary memory card for the pictures, once the camera gets turned off then all the pictures would be lost if they didnt get transerfered to the card.

D70FAN
10-11-2004, 03:38 PM
so, in other words the Dram acts a a temporary memory card for the pictures, once the camera gets turned off then all the pictures would be lost if they didnt get transerfered to the card.

Actually, it could well be SRAM (the S does stand for "Static"), but it doesn't really matter, the answer is yes.

Both DRAM and SRAM are "volitile" and lose their data when power is removed. I'm pretty sure that most new cameras do a save-before-power-off, but I haven't really tried it. But my original old, very slow, digicams would lose the picture if you turned the camera off while it was still downloading.

Badams
10-13-2004, 11:05 PM
so, how much SDRAM does the camera have, how many pictures can it take before you have to store them on a CF card? what kind of CF card would be the fastest for the camera?

D70FAN
10-14-2004, 06:47 AM
so, how much SDRAM does the camera have, how many pictures can it take before you have to store them on a CF card? what kind of CF card would be the fastest for the camera?

I'm not sure how much RAM (doesn't matter which kind) is in each camera since it is specified by frame depth vs. memory size, but you can calculate from the frame depth and average size. It appears to be enough to store anywhere from 4 to 32 frames depending on the camera (and the price of the camera). A rule of thumb is the more expensive the camera the more RAM you will get.

On my D70 I get 9 frames times about 3MP per frame (max) so the buffer is around 27MB (to allow for variations).

As far as speed, again it depends on the camera. Here is a handy reference:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007

Since Robs site is concerned mainly with professional type equipement it only covers dSLR type cameras. You can pretty much bet that even the best all-in-ones will still be below about 2MB/sec transfer speeds. For reference each 1X in flash card speed equals 150KB/sec.

glennp
10-15-2004, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Badams
What im looking for in a digital camera is FPS. the FPS and the write speed from the camera to the card goes, is one faster than the other or are they the same?
Comparing FPS, the Canon 20D is faster than the Nikon D70. While spec'd at 5fps for 23 shots (JPGs), the Canon is helped by a faster CF card. In the preliminary review over at dpreview they tested the burst rates. Phil got 36 frames at 5fps before the buffer filled up and the rate slowed down to 1.7 fps for 25 frames. The Nikon D70 clocked in at 3fps for 12 frames and then slowed down to 2fps for 57 frames. The Canon 10D, for comparision, came in with a now pedestrian 3fps for 9 frames and 1fps for 24 frames.


Originally Posted by Badams
so, in other words the Dram acts a a temporary memory card for the pictures, once the camera gets turned off then all the pictures would be lost if they didnt get transerfered to the card.
Yes. But unless you have a habit of releasing the shutter and then turning off the camera, this probably won't be an issue for you.

While the size of the buffer is important, the key here is how fast the camera can push data from the buffer to the card to free up the buffer to allow you to shoot more. Right now, it looks like the Canon is leader in this market segment because the older cameras (D70 and 10D) are not affected by a faster CF card.

D70FAN
10-15-2004, 04:32 PM
Comparing FPS, the Canon 20D is faster than the Nikon D70. While spec'd at 5fps for 23 shots (JPGs), the Canon is helped by a faster CF card. In the preliminary review over at dpreview they tested the burst rates. Phil got 36 frames at 5fps before the buffer filled up and the rate slowed down to 1.7 fps for 25 frames. The Nikon D70 clocked in at 3fps for 12 frames and then slowed down to 2fps for 57 frames. The Canon 10D, for comparision, came in with a now pedestrian 3fps for 9 frames and 1fps for 24 frames.


Yes. But unless you have a habit of releasing the shutter and then turning off the camera, this probably won't be an issue for you.

While the size of the buffer is important, the key here is how fast the camera can push data from the buffer to the card to free up the buffer to allow you to shoot more. Right now, it looks like the Canon is leader in this market segment because the older cameras (D70 and 10D) are not affected by a faster CF card.

While the Canon 20D is faster than the D70 (and most of the other Canon dSLR's), and for $500 more it should have some advantages, the D70 is not exactly slow, with a fairly robust sustained buffer download rate of 2fps for 57 frames (in this case). But put the D70 in "normal" JPEG mode and it can sustain 3fps until the memory card is full. A characteristic unique to the D70.

Also, the D70 can (and does) take advantage of faster CF cards whereas the benefit to the 10D is marginal at best, so lumping them together as "slow" is not factual, when in fact the D70 is about 3X faster, and the 20D is about 4X faster, than the 10D with diminishing returns on any memory card speed above 20X for the 10D.

For your reading pleasure:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007

While these tests were designed to check memory card speeds (and whether they are worth buying) It also guages the download speed of the camera as well. Some of the results are surprising.

glennp
10-16-2004, 10:03 AM
Also, the D70 can (and does) take advantage of faster CF cards whereas the benefit to the 10D is marginal at best, so lumping them together as "slow" is not factual,
Never said the D70 was slow. Just tried to say that the speed of the CF card doesn't affect the number of frames at the max FPS of the D70 (and 10D).

Stick a slower CF card in the D70 and you'll get 3fps for 12 frames.
Stick a fast CF card in the D70 and you'll still get 3fps for 12 frames.
Stick a slow CF card in the 20D and you'll get 5fps for 23 frames.
Stick a fast CF card in the 20D and you'll get 5fps for 36 frames.

Facts are if you hold down the shutter for 6 seconds you'll get the following number of frames:

Canon 20D: 30 frames
Nikon D70: 16 frames
Canon 10D: 12 frames


To be fair, I've never seen any camera in this range do this except the new 20D. So if FPS is really important to you in the sub $1500 price range, the 20D is the leader (for full resolution JPGs).

Ant
10-16-2004, 01:07 PM
The speed of the CF card definitely makes a difference on my D70

D70FAN
10-16-2004, 07:19 PM
Never said the D70 was slow. Just tried to say that the speed of the CF card doesn't affect the number of frames at the max FPS of the D70 (and 10D).

Stick a slower CF card in the D70 and you'll get 3fps for 12 frames.
Stick a fast CF card in the D70 and you'll still get 3fps for 12 frames.
Stick a slow CF card in the 20D and you'll get 5fps for 23 frames.
Stick a fast CF card in the 20D and you'll get 5fps for 36 frames.

Facts are if you hold down the shutter for 6 seconds you'll get the following number of frames:

Canon 20D: 30 frames
Nikon D70: 16 frames
Canon 10D: 12 frames


To be fair, I've never seen any camera in this range do this except the new 20D. So if FPS is really important to you in the sub $1500 price range, the 20D is the leader (for full resolution JPGs).

You are correct. If Badams is going strickly by full-frame speed the 20D is the winner for 30 Frames. So buy the 20D and be happy.

Ant
10-17-2004, 01:03 AM
You are correct. If Badams is going strickly by full-frame speed the 20D is the winner for 30 Frames. So buy the 20D and be happy.

True, but that's the only part of his post that was correct. The stuff about the D70 is wrong.


Just tried to say that the speed of the CF card doesn't affect the number of frames at the max FPS of the D70

Yes it does.


Stick a slower CF card in the D70 and you'll get 3fps for 12 frames.
Stick a fast CF card in the D70 and you'll still get 3fps for 12 frames.

Wrong.


Facts are if you hold down the shutter for 6 seconds you'll get the following number of frames:

* Canon 20D: 30 frames
* Nikon D70: 16 frames
* Canon 10D: 12 frames


Wrong again. If I put a slow card into my D70 I will indeed get 16 frames in 6 seconds. However, if I put a fast card in that rises to 18 frames in 6 seconds.

I know this because I've tried it.

glennp
10-19-2004, 01:21 PM
If I put a slow card into my D70 I will indeed get 16 frames in 6 seconds. However, if I put a fast card in that rises to 18 frames in 6 seconds.
I know this because I've tried it.

Ant,

Sorry if I offended you in any way, I was just reporting from other test results I've seen and my experiences.

You're getting 3fps for 6 seconds?? Even using a 40x Lexar card, my buddy and I have not been able to achieve the 3fps for more than 12 frames. What settings and/or CF card are you using?

Ant
10-19-2004, 02:30 PM
Ant,

Sorry if I offended you in any way, I was just reporting from other test results I've seen and my experiences.

You're getting 3fps for 6 seconds?? Even using a 40x Lexar card, my buddy and I have not been able to achieve the 3fps for more than 12 frames. What settings and/or CF card are you using?

Hey, no worries :) I'm just a bit of a stickler for correct information as much as possible. ;)

I was using a 80X lexar card. I Set focusing to manual. Shutter speed to 1/500. I wasn't interested in getting good pics, just FPS measurement.

I must admit that 6secs is the limit though, as soon as those 6 seconds were up the speed started to drop. I've also got a paltry 12X lexar card and the performance difference between the two is very marked. With the 12X card once the buffer is full then you might as well just stop shooting.

glennp
10-19-2004, 09:53 PM
80x huh? I don't have one but my friend was wondering why he should pay extra for one. Now he'll have a reason :)

ktixx
11-17-2004, 11:16 PM
Why does everyone compare the Canon 20d To the Nikon D70? From what I can see, the Nikon D70 should be compared to the Canon 10D. I am definitely not an expert on the subject, but Both the D70 and the 10D are 3fps, Both are Approximately 6mp (10D = 6.3 : D70 = 6.1). Even the current price is similar (approximately $1000). The only real difference that I can see is that the D70 has a 1/8000 max shutter speed, while the 10D has a 1/4000 max shutter speed. When looking at the 20d, it is an 8MP camera, that shoots 5fps with a much larger buffer. Can anyone tell me why everyone compare the 20d to the D70?

D70FAN
11-18-2004, 05:44 AM
Why does everyone compare the Canon 20d To the Nikon D70? From what I can see, the Nikon D70 should be compared to the Canon 10D. I am definitely not an expert on the subject, but Both the D70 and the 10D are 3fps, Both are Approximately 6mp (10D = 6.3 : D70 = 6.1). Even the current price is similar (approximately $1000). The only real difference that I can see is that the D70 has a 1/8000 max shutter speed, while the 10D has a 1/4000 max shutter speed. When looking at the 20d, it is an 8MP camera, that shoots 5fps with a much larger buffer. Can anyone tell me why everyone compare the 20d to the D70?

You really need to use all 3 to get an idea of why the D70 is compared to the 20D vs. the 10D. Actually the only "real" difference between all 3 is the space between most peoples ears.

I chose the D70 because I like the interface and higher flash sync (I take a lot of outdoor pictures of people standing in shadows or with the sun to their backs). But I would have been happy with any of the dSLR's out there, including the sometimes maligned DReb.

Technology is a wonderful thing, but don't get hung up on the specifications and features unless they mean something to you personally. 8 MegaPixels and 5fps are nice features, but unless you plan to print above 13 x 19 and shoot a lot of action sports, these features may just be a waste of money.

ktixx
11-18-2004, 12:15 PM
Technology is a wonderful thing, but don't get hung up on the specifications and features unless they mean something to you personally. 8 MegaPixels and 5fps are nice features, but unless you plan to print above 13 x 19 and shoot a lot of action sports, these features may just be a waste of money.

I am an amature photographer, by no means a professional, but I would like to get more educated in the field. I am pretty close to purchasing a canon 20d. I honestly don't see myself needing to print pictures larger than 8X10, so 13X19 is way more than I need. But my question to you is, If you had 2 cameras, one 6mp one 8mp, and you took an identical shot with them both, then printed an 8X10 picture. Hypothetically, wouldn't the 8MP camera be able to deliver a crisper, cleaner shot because of the increased amount of pixels?
I do also have another question specifically for you George. From the posts you put up and the knowledge you give to people you seem to be Very educated in photography. I have had a post up for some time and no one has been able to answer it for me. Do you know the answer ot my question?

http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2339

Thank you for all your help
Ken

D70FAN
11-18-2004, 04:05 PM
I am an amature photographer, by no means a professional, but I would like to get more educated in the field. I am pretty close to purchasing a canon 20d. I honestly don't see myself needing to print pictures larger than 8X10, so 13X19 is way more than I need. But my question to you is, If you had 2 cameras, one 6mp one 8mp, and you took an identical shot with them both, then printed an 8X10 picture. Hypothetically, wouldn't the 8MP camera be able to deliver a crisper, cleaner shot because of the increased amount of pixels?
I do also have another question specifically for you George. From the posts you put up and the knowledge you give to people you seem to be Very educated in photography. I have had a post up for some time and no one has been able to answer it for me. Do you know the answer ot my question?

http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2339

Thank you for all your help
Ken

As for the first part, I would never claim to be an expert on photography, and I try to avoid recommending, or not recommending, any camera I have not tried.

That said, at 8X10 (wet print), and even at close viewing distance I cannot see a difference between 6 and 8 MegaPixels, nor can anyone I've asked. On close inspection, with a loop, maybe. Even at 13 x 16 I don't think that the human eye can really see the difference.

An easy test is download 2 of the pictures from each camera from this site and have them printed at 8 x 10.

The 20D is a nice tool, and I considered trading up, but after printing a few pictures taken with both the 20D and the D70, I decided it was not worth the extra money. That is why I would suggested that you try all of the lower cost (<$1500) dSLR's before making the investment. Also take a look at the Konica Minolta 7D, and even the Olympus E300.

In answer to your question on the white balance settings, I could only speculate that it is a "set-to-taste" adjustment of some sort. Again, having used the 20D for about 3 hours does not qualify me as an expert.

A better source for information might be your local (professional) camera store. Specifically, where professionals go for their equipment and supplies. With a little luck one of the staff (or customers) will know the "real" answer to your question. If the Canon geeks don't know then that should give you a clue as to the local tech support.

The nice thing about Nikon is that there are a zillion sources for good information. Come to think of it you might want to ask over at Rob Galbraiths site.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/index.asp

Too bad there is no iNova e-book on the 20D, I always learn a lot of new things about my Nikons from those e-books. Actually they might be working on one...

http://www.digitalsecrets.net/ItsCanon/index.html

Another good source is google.com.

Anyway, always consider the source when seeking camera advice on-line. In my case I know a lot about some things and little about others. I avoid answering the latter. ;)

ktixx
11-19-2004, 12:48 AM
Thank you George, you have been very helpful.

mpop2002
11-20-2004, 07:31 AM
Hey
I am not an expert photographer, but am a good photographer who has used both Canon, Nikon and Minolta cameras and follow all the major reviews of these particular cameras. I am going to say right now, according to reviews at dcresource.com, cnet.com reviews, dreview.com and several other notable sites. There is a MAJOR difference between the Nikon d70 and the Canon EOS 20d. 1) Canon is noticably faster and achieves 5fps with people saying that they have even gotten more than 60 shots continuouly and one person who got more than 144 fps in a more fine mode. 2) The canon gets better ISO resolutions with less noise, and better low light pictures than the Nikon and this is a significant difference between the two camera's. 3) when regarding pictures printed at 8x10 and 13X9, higher pixel count is always..always better and the Nikon d70 has a lower pixel count 6.1 vs 8.2 of the 20d. I am not putting now Nikon, of the camera's that i was deciding between it was the Nikon d70 or the Canon Digital Rebel up until a trip to Tibet and a chance to use a friends Canon 20D popped up and i used it, it produced spectacular shots and i mean picture perfect shots that in no way can be matched by Nikon or the Rebel. If you are a new photographer and are thinking about buying a camera, your best choices in the under 3000 price range are the Canon 20d and Nikon d70, if you cant afford the 20d do the nikon, but i would recommend any day of the week that you shell out the extra money because the 20d incorporates the same 8.2 megapixel cmos as found on the Canon 1d Mark II and has more generations than Nikon in the Digital SLR market and the Digital Market in General. Fuji might look good on paper and use nikon lenses, Minolta may look snazzy and Olympus can dream cant it, but it comes down to Nikon and Canon and Canon has the clear hand now and if you really want top end, shell out 8 g's for the Canon 1Ds Mark II with a 16.7 MP CMOS!!!!

D70FAN
11-20-2004, 06:04 PM
Hey
I am not an expert photographer, but am a good photographer who has used both Canon, Nikon and Minolta cameras and follow all the major reviews of these particular cameras. I am going to say right now, according to reviews at dcresource.com, cnet.com reviews, dreview.com and several other notable sites. There is a MAJOR difference between the Nikon d70 and the Canon EOS 20d. 1) Canon is noticably faster and achieves 5fps with people saying that they have even gotten more than 60 shots continuouly and one person who got more than 144 fps in a more fine mode. 2) The canon gets better ISO resolutions with less noise, and better low light pictures than the Nikon and this is a significant difference between the two camera's. 3) when regarding pictures printed at 8x10 and 13X9, higher pixel count is always..always better and the Nikon d70 has a lower pixel count 6.1 vs 8.2 of the 20d. I am not putting now Nikon, of the camera's that i was deciding between it was the Nikon d70 or the Canon Digital Rebel up until a trip to Tibet and a chance to use a friends Canon 20D popped up and i used it, it produced spectacular shots and i mean picture perfect shots that in no way can be matched by Nikon or the Rebel. If you are a new photographer and are thinking about buying a camera, your best choices in the under 3000 price range are the Canon 20d and Nikon d70, if you cant afford the 20d do the nikon, but i would recommend any day of the week that you shell out the extra money because the 20d incorporates the same 8.2 megapixel cmos as found on the Canon 1d Mark II and has more generations than Nikon in the Digital SLR market and the Digital Market in General. Fuji might look good on paper and use nikon lenses, Minolta may look snazzy and Olympus can dream cant it, but it comes down to Nikon and Canon and Canon has the clear hand now and if you really want top end, shell out 8 g's for the Canon 1Ds Mark II with a 16.7 MP CMOS!!!!

This is what I was talking about in my final statement.