View Full Version : Canon PowerShot Pro1 or Panasonic DMC-FZ30
Leszek Lewsza
11-11-2005, 06:40 AM
Who can help me to take a proper decision ?
Gosepe
11-11-2005, 07:05 AM
I don't think anyone can if you don't tell what you need it for. What specs are important to you? Will you be shooting indoors/outdoors? In low-light? What's your budget? Etc....
There's a sticky on how tot ask this kind of question.
For me, it would be neither. The Pro 1 is old, slow, relatively noisey, exhibits a fair amount of CA/PF and is about to be replaced/retired. The FZ30 is a digital noise machine (but, it does have great features).
Leszek Lewsza
11-11-2005, 10:47 AM
If neither, so what would be the best solution to spend about 600-700$ for digital camera. I need (in principle my daughter) would like to take a photos in various conditions. My old Minolta Dimage is not sufficient for her any more - she would like to take a professional photos in the future but I can not afford on eg. Canon EOS 5D today.
coldrain
11-11-2005, 11:09 AM
If neither, so what would be the best solution to spend about 600-700$ for digital camera. I need (in principle my daughter) would like to take a photos in various conditions. My old Minolta Dimage is not sufficient for her any more - she would like to take a professional photos in the future but I can not afford on eg. Canon EOS 5D today.
So you are looking for a camera with a big zoom range and good image quality? What else is important for you or your daughter?
If neither, so what would be the best solution to spend about 600-700$ for digital camera. I need (in principle my daughter) would like to take a photos in various conditions. My old Minolta Dimage is not sufficient for her any more - she would like to take a professional photos in the future but I can not afford on eg. Canon EOS 5D today.
How about a budget dSLR such as the Pentax *ist D/Ds/Dl?
With an 18-55 lens it's $648 from Butterfly Photo.
...she would like to take a professional photos in the future but I can not afford on eg. Canon EOS 5D today.Whoa! That's a pretty big jump...from a Pro 1 or FZ30 to a 5D...no need for melodrama...as Rhys stated...there are the Pentax *ist models...perfectly good cameras capable of professional results...and priced to please...
And there's the other way to go too. Spend a little less and get a Fuji S9000/S9500, Sony H1, Panasonic FZ20 or a Canon S2. All will supply superior performance and image quality than your current camera (and would, IMO, make for better choices than your original two)...and leave you plenty of room in your budget for accessories.
It's just in your original post, you picked two cameras to face off against each other that I don't think a lot of people here would have necessarily picked...:)
BonjiB
11-12-2005, 11:12 AM
Well if you were considering an fz30 i wouldn't start looking at cameras like the fz20, h1 or the s2. The fz30 is far superior. That's a step in the wrong direction. Although they are good cameras you'll get much more happiness from an fz30 with it's manual controls and hefty slr-like feel and not to mention improved image quality. I own an fz30 and couldnt be happier with it. I would not hesistate to recomend it as a go between from the point and shoot world and dslr world. The only problem with dslrs is the lens cost. To get a lens or a set of lenses that have the same range/image stabilization as those found on higher end prosumer cameras like the fz30 you'd have to sell a kidney or something. This is what ultimately made my descision for me when trying to decide between the rebel xt or an fz30. A dslr will give you fantastic professional results but if you buy a budget one you'll be limited only by the glass you have hooked onto the front of it. The "kit lenses" that come with those starter pack DSLRs like the 18-55mm will give you good results BUT the zoom range sucks and there's no IS. 55mm on the telephoto isn't anywhere NEAR what you'd get with the 420mm of a prosumer superzoom. If you need/want that zoom and image stabilization (which i did) and you aren't willing to set down some serious cash for a quality lens(s) that'll give you that on a dslr you might start looking at 8 megapixel superzooms. I won't lie, they are noisier but i can tell you just from my experience that 95+% of my shots (with my fz30) don't need any post processing as a result of noise and those few that do clean up nicely. People that don't own an fz30 make em out to be far worse than they really are just based on someone elses review. Unless you plan on doing a lot of night time photography without a flash (which can be cleaned up well) the fz30 will suit your needs quite nicely in almost all situations. Just another factor to consider.
Leszek Lewsza
11-12-2005, 11:58 PM
Thank you for all advises, especially to Rhys. May by Pentax *ist D/Ds/Dl is really the best solution for me. My pocket can manage Ds or Dl expense. And my questions is which one is better ? Last question - fz30 has 12x zoom and what about 18-55 mm of *ist Ds/Dl lens (there is no IS also).
coldrain
11-13-2005, 01:51 AM
BonjiB, The FZ30 is big, yes. Is that a plus? I have no idea why that is a plus. You can not easily put it in a pocket unless you have huge pockets. Even in a little back pack it would not really be safe. Its weight will also be a drawback compared to the S2 IS and H1. Basically you get the size and weight of a DSLR without getting the advantages of a DSLR.
The image quality is not "better" as the S2 IS, H1, S9000. It is over sharpened giving a more detailed feel, but when you actually look you see it is overdone, which is a shame. Then there is the noise, to me already disturbing at its lowest ISO (80) and making it useless at ISO 200 or 400. Artifacts all over the place.
Yes, its manual focus ring is there, but who manual focusses with the FZ30??
And, a big zoom range does not make it a "good lens" (it is not a bad lens though). So, what remains is the manual focus ring and a hot shoe for people who do not mind adding even more bulk to put an external flash unit on top to compensate for its dismal ISO performance in poor light situations.
I know I am being a bit negative, but it is to show you that you are too biased too. Which is not a good advice giver.
Now to the DSLR question. Do not buy a DSLR until you know exactly what is what. DSLR's are capable of very good results, but you must know the drawbacks too. No preview on the LCD is one, to get used to. It will mean you can't take certain shots with a DSLR you can take with a compact digital camera, especially one with a swivel display like the S2 IS.
Another is of course the weight, and you will need more than one lens most probably (which adds to the bulk while you are out and about).
The Canon EOS 350D/Rebel XT, Nikon D50, Nikon D70s, Pentax *istDS (2), Konica Minolta 5D and Olympus E-500 all have their pro's and cons. All are under $1000 and you need to figure out which pro's are the most attractive to you, if you want to go the DSLR road.
It will be an investment into a system (because of the lenses you will have to buy) and that makes the choice a bit more than just going for the one with the lowest price.
About the Pentax *ist models, the *istD is the oldest and it shows in its image quality. The *istDL is best avoided, it is the cheapest model (even though you can find the *istDS more cheap) and it lost one of the major pro's of the *istDS, namely the bright viewfinder (thing you look through).
So, IF you want to buy a Pentax DSLR, best choice is the fased out *istDS or its follow up, the *istDS2.
The Nikon and Canon DSLR's have the widest lens choice, also from 3rd party manufacturers (and they have the edge in image quality).
If this all seems over your head right now, you should maybe for now look for an ultra zoom camera like the mentioned Canon S2 IS, Sony H1, Panasonic FZ20, Fuji S5200 and S9000, or even the FZ30 if you don't mind noisy photos and don't mind having the biggest of the bunch.
bond007
11-13-2005, 09:44 AM
If this all seems over your head right now, you should maybe for now look for an ultra zoom camera like the mentioned Canon S2 IS, Sony H1, Panasonic FZ20, Fuji S5200 and S9000, or even the FZ30 if you don't mind noisy photos and don't mind having the biggest of the bunch.
that's true FZ30 is probably the biggest non-SLR camera around with a big ultrazoom lens-- just went to Fry's Electronics last night and really noticed the size compared to all the others around. S9000 is about the same size.
But I chosed FZ30 over all the others because...
Canon S2, Sony H1 and Fuji S5200 lack a hot shoe attachment-- something to think about when adding an external flash unit.
FZ30's lens does not extend. That's the biggest attraction for me. That sold me actually.
I was choosing between FZ30 and S9000 and I guess I liked rechargeable Li-Ion battery vs. 4 AA battery. (just bought a FZ30 generic battery for $12 on ebay)... and the prices between the two were pretty similar... so I went with the FZ30.
FZ20 was prob a really good choice too cuz its price drop after introduction of FZ30... but why didn't I consider a FZ20?
Well if you were considering an fz30 i wouldn't start looking at cameras like the fz20, h1 or the s2. The fz30 is far superior. That's a step in the wrong direction.I will pit my S2 against your FZ30 any day of the week when it comes to overall picture quality. :D
And do you seriously think that the FZ30 has better picture quality than the FZ20?
coldrain
11-13-2005, 11:03 AM
I will pit my S2 against your FZ30 any day of the week when it comes to overall picture quality. :D
Even on Sunday??? :eek:
Even on Sunday??? :eek:Especially on Sunday! :D :D :D
timmciglobal
11-13-2005, 10:03 PM
I'll pit a Pro1 against your S2 any day of the week :p
The Pro1 @ F4 has some purly amazing picture quality and color. The L lens might not be L in the level of CA wide open but the colors are most deffinitly L.
Tim
I'll pit a Pro1 against your S2 any day of the week :p
The Pro1 @ F4 has some purly amazing picture quality and color. The L lens might not be L in the level of CA wide open but the colors are most deffinitly L.
TimHey, you're right...to a point. Shot-to-shot...I'd wipe the floor with it! :p :p :p
But, the fact remains...it is noisier...and IMO, it's not worth double the money..."L" glass or not...;)
Instead of posting another topic, just wanted to ask here.
I'm seriously thinking about getting the FZ 20. The only thing that bothers me is the noise... i've read so much about it... and have seen the pictures, however, there were'nt any direct comparissons with other cameras (all but the night shot in the review).
Any owners or those that have had experience... can u please comment on it.
Also, are there any major advantages of the S2 IS over the FZ20... ?:)
thank you all for comments )
coldrain
11-14-2005, 03:33 AM
Instead of posting another topic, just wanted to ask here.
I'm seriously thinking about getting the FZ 20. The only thing that bothers me is the noise... i've read so much about it... and have seen the pictures, however, there were'nt any direct comparissons with other cameras (all but the night shot in the review).
Any owners or those that have had experience... can u please comment on it.
Also, are there any major advantages of the S2 IS over the FZ20... ?:)
thank you all for comments )
Well, most UZ cameras are noisy to a point, because they need very small sensors to keep the lens size down. When it becomes bothersome to me is when the lowest ISO settings already are noticably noisy. The FZ20 is not as noisy as the FZ30. It is however a bit more noisy than the S2 IS at ISO 80 and 100 (S2 at ISO 50 and 100). What I personally like more about the S2 IS is the colour balance, it is more lifelike... the Panasonic seems to make sunny days a bit less sunny, everything is a little bit "rainy day" like to me.
But the FZ20 is a very nice camera, and its noise is not so dramatic in the lower ISO's. If you want less noise at ISO 200 and 400 too for low light photos without flash, the Sony H1 is the best performer of UZ cameras with IS. If you can live without IS the Fuji S5200 is the one to go for, noise-wise.
FZ30 compared to S2 IS where the FZ30 noise really shows:
S2
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_s2-review/IMG_0060.JPG
Fz30
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/panasonic/dmc_fz30-review/P1000137.JPG
This shows well just how noisy the FZ30 can get at its lowest ISO 80 setting.
Comparison:
FZ20
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/panasonic/dmc_fz20-review/P1000006.JPG
FZ30
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/panasonic/dmc_fz30-review/P1000140.JPG
S2IS
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_s2-review/IMG_0010.JPG
H1
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sony/dsc_h1-review/DSC00078.JPG
S9000:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_s9000-review/DSCF0600.JPG
BonjiB
11-15-2005, 01:42 AM
I will pit my S2 against your FZ30 any day of the week when it comes to overall picture quality. :D
And do you seriously think that the FZ30 has better picture quality than the FZ20?
Yes, i do. I've explained this in a couple other threads already. The fz30 has more pixels crammed into a smaller space. That makes for noise. No one can argue that BUT it's also capturing more detail. The images themselves are larger. So as your detail increases so does your noise. Now, take an 8 megapixel image from an fz30 and downsample it to 5 megapixels and compare it to an image from the fz20. I've done this. This is one of the many reasons i upgraded from the 20 to the 30. The image noise drops down to about the same level BUT the detail from the downsampled 8 megapixel image is STILL finer. Thus, if you make the same sized print from a 5 megapixel fz20 against an 8 megapixel fz30 the fz30's print will win in terms of overal image quality hands down. The noise only becomes an issue in larger prints (far over 8x10) and in low light no flash which i use a sunpak 383 for most all indoor shots anyways. Not to 'make up for the noise' but because an external flash with a swivel head produces more natural light regardless of the camera.
Now as for your challenge. I'd love to pit my fz30 against your s2 any day of the week. However, not looking at the differing megapixel images on a computer monitor at 100%. Cuz my higher resolution will certainly show more noise as has been duely noted. Notice in the sample shots posted above comparing the s2 and the fz30 how yes there is less noise in the s2's image but there is also noticibly less detail. Those are original size images. It's not an accurate comparison if you view those images at 100% because the fz30's image has 3 million more dots than the s2's. If you are to properly compare the two you'd take a picture of the same subject in the same light and produce prints from both cameras at various sizes (4x6, 5x7, 8x10, onward and onward.) Then i know my fz30 would win. Afterall, what is the true measure of a cameras quality other than in the prints it produces?
I'm sorry if i sound biased towards the fz30. I am. I love this camera and i really only have good things to say about it. As for it's size, i love it's size. It feels like a "real camera." If i want a camera i can tote around easily and stick in a pocket i'll bring along my samsung a402. Chances are i won't be making super high quality framed prints out of candid "need a small camera" shots anyways so the quality factor isn't as important. Although i have made some excellent 8x10's with my a402. As for my "real" pictures... i want a camera that'll give me stunning results regardless of it's physical size because most of those are planned anyways. The fz30 does this for me.
Let me close saying this. Buy a camera that suits YOUR needs. Not mine, your neighbors or anyone elses. If you don't like what comes out of the fz30, don't buy it. But i'd venture to guess that the majority of people who hate on the fz30 don't own one. If they owned one they'd fall in love with it because it's quite simply a fantastic piece of equipment and in terms of prints produces the best in it's class. (There's my bias cropping up again, but that's why this is an open forum right? lol)
Good luck.
Let me make an analogy with this argument...
If I had the choice between dirty, stained 1000 thread count sheets and 600 thread count sheets that are clean, I'm taking the clean sheets! :D So, even though the "thread count" is higher on the other, the clean sheets are more desirable! To me, at least! :D :D :D
BonjiB
11-15-2005, 03:33 PM
That's a terrible argument. The images from the fz30 are far from "stained and dirty." You're making it sound like there's poopie rubbed all over the picture. There is only a noise "problem" in LOW LIGHT NO FLASH environments at high isos (all superzooms, poop, all non-pro cameras have this problem to some extent.) I'm going to stop arguing with you because you obviously aren't seeing things the right way... my way. lol. I explained my point of view in great detail and you fire back with "your camera has doodie on the lens." So, good luck with that. All i'm saying is the fz30 kicks the living kaka out of any other superzoom on the market. Even the beloved s2 and fz20. That's a fact jack. If you want an inferior product, buy something else. :p My opinion as a member of this forum and an fz30 owner was asked in the original question of the thread and now i've given my input.
:: EDIT :: My appologies about the bad words. I got too worked up. I took em out.
Lighten up already! Boy oh boy, IT'S A JOKE! Did you not notice the THREE...wait FOUR laughing/smiley faces? And BTW, dont' use curse words on this site. It's a family friendly place!
coldrain
11-15-2005, 05:22 PM
Why do all FZ30 owners on one side boast about the 8mp "advantage" while when the issue of the noisy sensor/processor comes up they say you don't notice it when you print them out small enough not to notice? If you only need photos to look ok printed at 8x11" or smaller, and you never want ti crop a photo you took, why then not just buy a nice and cheap and not so noisy 3 or 4 mp camera.
It's a noisy camera, that is the FACT. And if you do not mind, that is FINE. But lots of people do mind, and may express that too. Especially when they are trying to advice people about the best camera for them.... Noise is not a good thing, and that may be pointed out.
BonjiB
11-15-2005, 07:52 PM
Fair enough. I love a good argument though. I don't mean to offend anyone or to make any enemies. If I have, I appologize. Notice my token lol's to make it known that i'm not malicious. I also took the naughty words out of my last post. My hope is someone will read over this thread and learn some stuff from both ends. Thanks for the good debate. :)
bond007
11-15-2005, 08:20 PM
Why do all FZ30 owners on one side boast about the 8mp "advantage" while when the issue of the noisy sensor/processor comes up they say you don't notice it when you print them out small enough not to notice? If you only need photos to look ok printed at 8x11" or smaller, and you never want ti crop a photo you took, why then not just buy a nice and cheap and not so noisy 3 or 4 mp camera.
It's a noisy camera, that is the FACT. And if you do not mind, that is FINE. But lots of people do mind, and may express that too. Especially when they are trying to advice people about the best camera for them.... Noise is not a good thing, and that may be pointed out.
OK
so FZ30 is the camera of choices that is non-SLR for its size and feel that it's like a solid camera with a range a features like a hot shoe for external flash unit, manual zooming and focusing rings, the advantages of its non-extending zoom, its fat lens zoom 12x range 35mm-420mm, proven effective optical image stabilizing technology and a whopping 8 mega pixelets... so those are all PRO
and the CON: noise @ low light
OK
that's a summary for FZ30.
the Canon Powershot Pro1 has a remote control, I thought that's kinda neat.
the 7x optical zoom lens extends way out, that's just a neg for me.
CON: noise @ low lightNo..IMO, the con is too much noise above ISO 80 in ANY light!
Leszek Lewsza
11-18-2005, 01:11 PM
Many thanks all of you for education. Taking into account all advices (dpreview.com, dcresource.com also) and I've bought Canon eos 350d with 18-55 mm lens. It is pretty enough for me for now....
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