Canon 5D

[24Peter]

So I spent the weekend shooting with a 5D that I rented from Samy's Camera here in LA ($200 Friday 3PM-Monday 11AM). I wanted to see for myself what this camera has to offer. Overall I can say I found it to be a really great camera. But I also think for what they are, the Rebel XT and 20D are also great cameras. As they say, it's all relative.

I can say the biggest thing that jumped out at me after using the 5D for a while is how crappy the autofocus is on my Rebel XT. I think I typically get maybe 20-30% soft focus shots with that camera. (Not wildly out of focus but soft.) With the 5D, I'd say it nailed focus maybe 95% of the time - and I mean NAILED. Perfect focus. If my XT focused that well, it would be a much harder decision whether or not to move to the next level.

[Maybe my XT needs to be serviced. Juan or Jamison (or anyone else who's shot with a 20D or 1D body and then also shot with an XT), how do you think the XT's focusing stacks up against better bodies? (I was using all my same lenses on the 5D and shooting under similar cirucumstances.)]

In terms of image quality, in some ways the 5D is revolutionary and in others evolutionary (again compared to my XT.) Revolutionary in terms of sharpness and resolution. The detail and sharpness in the 5D images is just outstanding. And I was using mostly low end consumer lenses (28-105 3.5-4.5, 50 1.8, 85 1.8, 135 SF, 75-300 IS II). I can only imagine what this camera can do with "L" glass on it. Also revolutionary for me, was the full frame experience. Working with the true 35mm field of view (and shallower DOF) opened up exciting challenges and opportunities, but it just really felt like what I would imagine taking pictures with a 35mm film camera feels like.

Evolutionary in terms of the "look and feel" of the images. They were a lot like my XT, just better. For instance, I noticed a small (but definitely welcome) difference in dynamic range - not the night and day difference I was hoping for. And while I didn't have time to fool around with the in-camera settings on the 5D, the images still had that Canon look - kind of flat, low contrast, low saturation (I was using the "Standard" image setting in the 5D). Not necessarily an unappealing look - in fact, many of the images are quite beautiful. And of course, things like saturation and contrast can be changed in camera and in the computer. But my point is, they defintiely looked like they were processed using the same in camera processing as my XT and from what I've seen of the 20D.

The biggest negative factors for me with the 5D are the 1) size/weight and 2) price. I found there are some advantages to a heavier camera (e.g., camera shake) and quite frankly, my XT has gotten too "small" for me, esp. with a large lens. Right now I think a 20D-sized body would be a good fit. But there were definitely times this weekend that the 5D felt like a brick.

In terms of price, it's really hard for me personally to justify spending $3,300 on a camera. I actually do have the money, but I'm trying to limit how much I spend on equipment until I start making more money from my photography. I don't think anyone's discounting these babies yet and even for instance with a Dell 15% off coupon I still pay 8.25% CA sales tax so not a big deal. I assume the price will come down in the next few months, and I'm sure I'll start making more $ from my photography, so it may be easier to justify such a large expense. But right now, that's a big chunk of change.

In any event, I'm waiting to see the price and specs on the 20D successor. A 10-12MP, 1.3X sensor in the 20D body for $1,800 or less would be very attractive for me.

Of course as they say the proof is in the pudding, so I'm sure some of you are wondering where the photos are. Well you'll have to wait a few more days. I just finished building a new computer and am in the process of transfering over all stuff from the old one to the new one. Hopefully I'll get some photos on-line by the end of the week. I'll also make the original full-size versions available since it's hard to grasp the enormous detail of the 5D images from little web-sized shots.

Anyone else shoot with the 5D yet?

[cdifoto]

I haven't shot with it though...and honestly don't plan to (although plans DO change!). I'm trying for an all-or-nothing type of situation...either entry level or the absolute best - whatever that is at the time I can afford it!

Good insight though Pete and thanks for that. It's good to know that the occasional misfocus with the 24-70 is possibly not me or the lens but moreso the cameras themselves, both being XTs.

[timmciglobal]

I really hope the next 20D (30D? 25? whatever they call it) has better AF. That's the single point I wish they would (but I doubt they will) improve significantly.

I'd be quiet happy with an XT with a great AF system.

Tim

[cdifoto]

I wanna comment about the dynamic range. You said you were shooting with consumer lenses and noticed better DR in the 5D. While I concede that it probably does have an improvement, a lot of DR can be gained by using higher quality lenses. I was experimenting outside a little with the short L just to see if I was right. With the kit lens I had trouble getting blue skies and properly exposed foliage, but with the L it's a non-issue.

Straight from the camera except USM:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/nftn/2470L/20051107-004.jpg

While I'm sure the pic would look even better with a 5D or 1D series, I still think optics play a bigger role.

[George Riehm]

I really hope the next 20D (30D? 25? whatever they call it) has better AF. That's the single point I wish they would (but I doubt they will) improve significantly.

I'd be quiet happy with an XT with a great AF system.

Tim

Ah. You mean a D70...

... Sorry Tim (and all of the Canonians I just offended), I just couldn't resist.;)

[timmciglobal]

The D200's maybe. The old cam sensor of the D70 was an odd choice, one would of assumed they would have upgraded it on the D70 but nikon underestimated canon's competition I think.

D200 AF + 20D ISO performance + XT's grip + 1.3 crop factor would be the "pefect' camera for me. Not for everyone, but that would be my perfect camera.

Tim

[jamison55]

[Maybe my XT needs to be serviced. Juan or Jamison (or anyone else who's shot with a 20D or 1D body and then also shot with an XT), how do you think the XT's focusing stacks up against better bodies? (I was using all my same lenses on the 5D and shooting under similar cirucumstances.)]

Hey Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts on the 5D. I use my 20D and XT side by side every weekend and can't say that I notice much of a difference between them in terms of AF. They (or should I say, I) misfocus on about 5% of the images I shoot. The variance seems much more dependant on the lenses I use.

I plan to upgrade to a better body next year and am torn between the 5D and the 1Dn. The 5D has everything I am looking for...image quality, FF sensor, clean ISO 3200, great AF, but no weather proofing. The 1D has the weather proofing.

Decisions, decisions....

[24Peter]

Hmmm. Thanks Jamison. Maybe I should have my XT checked out. I was kind of assuming it was either me or all the XT's focused that way. Out of 750 shots this weekend with the 5D, I'd say maybe 30-40 had camera AF issues - and half of those were in really low light conditions. I was just blown away by how well the 5D focused.

CDI - I can't really comment on how better lenses affect the camera's ability hold contrasts. I did notice that fewer blown highlights with the 5D. Yesterday I shot this girl with blonde hair out in the midday sun and the camera was able to keep most of the detail in the hair while properly exposing her face (which was turned away from the sun.) I was using my 220EX for fill and that seemed to work perfectly with the 5D.

[cdifoto]

Hmmm. Thanks Jamison. Maybe I should have my XT checked out. I was kind of assuming it was either me or all the XT's focused that way. Out of 750 shots this weekend with the 5D, I'd say maybe 30-40 had camera AF issues - and half of those were in really low light conditions. I was just blown away by how well the 5D focused.

CDI - I can't really comment on how better lenses affect the camera's ability hold contrasts. I did notice that fewer blown highlights with the 5D. Yesterday I shot this girl with blonde hair out in the midday sun and the camera was able to keep most of the detail in the hair while properly exposing her face (which was turned away from the sun.) I was using my 220EX for fill and that seemed to work perfectly with the 5D.

That's good. Imagine L on that puppy though! If great glass = great contrast/DR and great body = great contrast/DR, great glass + great body would be killer!

I feel inadequate now! :( :eek:

[George Riehm]

The D200's maybe. The old cam sensor of the D70 was an odd choice, one would of assumed they would have upgraded it on the D70 but nikon underestimated canon's competition I think.

Not sure I understand that comment as the AF sensor in the D70 (and all Nikon dSLR's) works fine, and low-light focus is second to none. The CAM900 module works as well as any. if you mean the 5 points vs. 7 or even 9, it's never been a problem for me.

It's actually complaints from Canon owners that prompted my original response. And that has more to do with low-light AF. In my experience with a decent AF lens the Nikons (that I have used) focus is fast and accurate.


D200 AF + 20D ISO performance + XT's grip + 1.3 crop factor would be the "pefect' camera for me. Not for everyone, but that would be my perfect camera.

Tim

How about a 1D Mark II? Should cover most of those bases.;) By XT's grip i'm assuming you mean optional battery grip.

[TheObiJuan]

George, I think he further means the grip's style and design. It is so much better looking than the akward 20D's.


Peter, I noticed a big difference in low light shooting and tracking players in AI servo with the 20D. The 20D focuses is better, but not such a big jump as the 1DMKII would have been. That thing is awesome, and the sensitivity can be adjusted to boot.

Congrads on getting to shoot with it. Your experience is appreciated and well recieved. I should rent one to experience FF. I like the 1.3x FOV though and the 1.6x even more. :p
Oddly, I found the 350D's viewfinder to help on MFing.
The 20D seems darker and has a etched design.

[Bluedog]

I'm on my second 350/XT body and haven't had any problems with focusing related to the camera itself. However attached with the Sigma 18-125mm it's another story ... its the lens and not the camera.

[TheObiJuan]

I'm on my second 350/XT body and haven't had any problems with focusing related to the camera itself. However attached with the Sigma 18-125mm it's another story ... its the lens and not the camera.

The lens surely is a huge factor, but the 135L on the 350D still is sluggish and inaccurate at times.
Shallow DOF, like f/2, and especially at long focal distances, make accurate inconsitencies obvious.

[24Peter]

Thanks again for the replies on the focus issue guys.

Since it's gonna be at least a few more months with the XT I'll need to figure out a solution. Since I do mostly people portraits, I routinely use the far right (or in portrait orientation, topmost) focus point. Does anyone know if there is a difference in the accuracy of the focus points? Would I be better off using the center point to set focus and then shift the camera? (I'll give it a try on my next shoot but thought I'd pose/post the question.)

[George Riehm]

I'm on my second 350/XT body and haven't had any problems with focusing related to the camera itself. However attached with the Sigma 18-125mm it's another story ... its the lens and not the camera.

Interesting. The 18-125 is my everyday lens. Focus is fast and accurate, albeit a little noisy. But for $270 noise is ok.

Lens incompatibility is a great way to limit your competition.

[George Riehm]

Thanks again for the replies on the focus issue guys.

Since it's gonna be at least a few more months with the XT I'll need to figure out a solution. Since I do mostly people portraits, I routinely use the far right (or in portrait orientation, topmost) focus point. Does anyone know if there is a difference in the accuracy of the focus points? Would I be better off using the center point to set focus and then shift the camera? (I'll give it a try on my next shoot but thought I'd pose/post the question.)

Either way should work fine. I still find myself using the center point to focus and then re-aiming to the target center. Force of habit from my all-in-one digital and manual dSLR days.;) Slowly I'm getting the knack of using multiple focus points, and I'm getting to the point where it is faster, and works better, than re-aiming.

The 5D should be a great portrait camera.

[Vich]

Thanks again for the replies on the focus issue guys.

Since it's gonna be at least a few more months with the XT I'll need to figure out a solution. Since I do mostly people portraits, I routinely use the far right (or in portrait orientation, topmost) focus point. Does anyone know if there is a difference in the accuracy of the focus points? Would I be better off using the center point to set focus and then shift the camera? (I'll give it a try on my next shoot but thought I'd pose/post the question.)
Thanks for the mini-review Peter. $200, that's quite a committment to trying something out!

I've rented from Pro Photo Connection in Irvine and, although they don't have a 5D at present, their rental prices seem much less. I'll ask them next time what their 5D rental will be. They only charge for 1 day if you pick up on Friday, because they're closed Sunday, but require 8AM return Monday morning. I drive within 1/2 mile of them every AM - be happy to return your rentals for you, esp. any more 5D rentals or the like you might be thinking of. :D :D

Edit: They charge $175 a day (full weekend counts as 1 day). They do have it. Hmmph. Somehow I thought they would be a lot less.

Regarding center focus; I seem to recall that the center spot is a tad different (on the 20D).

[jamison55]

Since it's gonna be at least a few more months with the XT I'll need to figure out a solution. Since I do mostly people portraits, I routinely use the far right (or in portrait orientation, topmost) focus point. Does anyone know if there is a difference in the accuracy of the focus points? Would I be better off using the center point to set focus and then shift the camera? (I'll give it a try on my next shoot but thought I'd pose/post the question.)

Depends on your DOF. If you are shooting with very narrow DOF, the focus/recompose with the center AF point could lead to misfocused photos. For example, the DOF on the 85 f1.8 at typical headshot distances when wide open will pretty much put the eyes in focus but blur the ears and the tip of the nose. If you use the center point AF to focus on the eyes, then shift the lens to recompose, chances are you won't be focused on the eyes anymore. That's because you will have shifted the point of focus (which is critical with wide apertures). You can do this experiment. Measure a piece of string from your tripod to the exact point you want to focus. Now move the string two inches down. Your string is now a bit behind your original focus point (i.e. backfocused). Here's a great article that explains it far more accurately than I just did: http://www.outbackphoto.com/workshop/phototechnique/essay06/essay.html

So, unless you have enough DOF to cover yourself, you are better off sticking with the AF point nearest your desired focus area. The center AF point is the most accurate, because it is in a + shape, looking for contrast on both the horizontal and vertical axis. The outlying AF points look for areas of horizontal or vertical contrast only (depending upon how the camera is oriented) The center 5 focus points of the XT are as follows: [ [ + ] ].
So in the portrait orientation, the outer two focus points are looking for areas of horizontal contrast. I find that the area where the eyelid meets the eye usually provides a nice AF target (especially if the model is wearing eyeliner). I also am in the habit of half depressing the shutter button multiple times in rapid succession until the motor of the Lens' AF no longer reponds, at which point I'm reasonably assured of proper focus.

It is often difficult to judge focus in the small viewfinders of the 1.6CF bodies (which is why the big viewfinder of the 5D is so appealing)!

Here's one I took with my XT and 35 f2 @ f2 using the technique I described above (though in hindsight I wish I'd used a wider aperture to bring a bit more in focus - f4 would have been about right - this pic just illustrates the point). I focused with an outlying focus point on the bride's left eye. Had I used center focus/recompose, the focus would have probably been closer to her necklace (or worse, her earing), and I'd have had to trash the photo.

http://mishuna.image.pbase.com/v3/30/516430/1/51166520.BethBrian0262aBW.jpg
Image Copyright 2005 by Jamison Wexler

[Rhys]

I will be tempted by the 5D in a year or two. I'm just getting into dSLRs and I'm already fed up with focal length conversion calculations. I'd love for my 17-35 Tamron to be a 17-35 rather than a 28-50 approx.

[cdifoto]

I will be tempted by the 5D in a year or two. I'm just getting into dSLRs and I'm already fed up with focal length conversion calculations. I'd love for my 17-35 Tamron to be a 17-35 rather than a 28-50 approx.

Yeah a FF would be nice...but what's so hard about looking through the viewfinder, seeing that your 17-35 isn't quite wide enough, and getting/mounting a wider lens?

It's not rocket surgery...

[24Peter]

Depends on your DOF. If you are shooting with very narrow DOF, the focus/recompose with the center AF point could lead to misfocused photos.
Yes, you're right. That occured to me after I posted.

I also am in the habit of half depressing the shutter button multiple times in rapid succession until the motor of the Lens' AF no longer reponds, at which point I'm reasonably assured of proper focus.
Funny, that's exactly what I've been doing. It's helped a little on my XT.

http://mishuna.image.pbase.com/v3/30/516430/1/51166520.BethBrian0262aBW.jpg
Beautiful shot!

[davephoto]

http://mishuna.image.pbase.com/v3/30/516430/1/51166520.BethBrian0262aBW.jpg
Image Copyright 2005 by Jamison Wexler

Lovely photo, Jamison!

[Vich]

Lovely photo, Jamison!
Hey; If anyone here hasn't checked out Dave's gallary, do so.

Wonderful stuff. Like a one man photo contest, winners all!

Great stuff Dave. Welcome to DCRP.:)

[jamison55]

Thanks guys, this bride and groom were a lot of fun:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/smBethBrian0728a.jpg


Dave, nice shots in your gallery!

[TheObiJuan]

Thanks guys, this bride and groom were a lot of fun:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y216/jamiewexler/smBethBrian0728a.jpg


Dave, nice shots in your gallery!

That's an awesome photo Jamie!
You have some serious skill, man.

[Vich]

That's an awesome photo Jamie!
You have some serious skill, man.
I second that!

[cdifoto]

I second that!

Jamie's a wedding wizard. If I ever become half as good as he is, I'll be thrilled.

[aparmley]

Jamie's a wedding wizard. If I ever become half as good as he is, I'll be thrilled.

You can say that again. . .

[cdifoto]

You can say that again. . .

Jamie's a wedding wizard. If I ever become half as good as he is, I'll be thrilled.


:D

[TheObiJuan]

Jamie's a wedding wizard. If I ever become half as good as he is, I'll be thrilled.


:D

:D ROFL
That's too funny.

[jamison55]

Cmon guys, you're embarrassing me :o.

THESE guys are wedding wizards:
www.joebuissink.com
www.altf.com (check out his "recent" link)
www.thebecker.com
http://jeffascough.com/

[Bluedog]

Cmon guys, you're embarrassing me :o.

THESE guys are wedding wizards:

www.altf.com (check out his "recent" link)

That guy has some amazing stuff in there.

Jamie you put out some very good work too. Might explain why your booking schedule stays pretty full.

[24Peter]

Cmon guys, you're embarrassing me :o.

Hey, if you got it (which you do), flaunt it. :) Just next time hijack someone else's thread! ;)