nature photography, FZ30 or S2IS?

[nic]

Hi everybody!

I'm planning to buy a new camera but I really have a problem to make my choice! I would mainly use it to photograph birds and wild animals (so I need an ultrazoom camera). I would also pic insects so I need a good macro mode! Image quality is rather important to me... The two cameras I have in mind are Panasonic FZ30 and Canon S2...:rolleyes: Which one would you recommand to me?
Thank you!

Nic

[swgod98]

nic, I think the only thing the S2 does better than the FZ30 is it's video mode. Scratch that...the FZ30 has a great video mode! I guess the diff is the S2 has stereo sound and you can still take pictures while recording video.

If price (and size: the S2 is way smaller = I like) isn't a concern, I think the FZ30 might be a better choice. It has a few nice features the S2 doesn't have like a hotshoe and a manual focus ring. And it's 8mp. The only complaints I read about are about relatively high noise levels at ISO 200 and 400 (which you probably won't need outdoors).

However, owning an S2 myself, I don't think you'd be dissapointed with the S2. I am loving the camera every day! :)

The S2 is maybe $70 cheaper.
The S2 is a lot smaller.
The S2 can snap pictures while recording video.

In all honesty, I think those are the only selling points of the S2 over the FZ30. If those don't appeal to you, go with the FZ30.

That's MO.

[coldrain]

the FZ30 has relativily high noise in any iso mode, even compared to other 8mp cameras. So not only at 200 and 400, but at 80, the lowest ISO available.

And that is not impressive, and makes it not such a nice nature camera. It in fact ruins an otherwise impressive camera (that, and its strange display that swivels in a strange way).

Look at this ISO 80 photo to see just how noisy it gets:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/panasonic/dmc_fz30-review/P1000137.JPG

[gary_hendricks]

Here's my feel on the Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ30. It's the replacement for Panasonic's well-liked DMC-FZ20 which came out in late 2004. The FZ30 improves on that camera in almost every way, especially in build quality and ergonomics.

I'll mention the downside first. Despite an increase in resolution from 5 to 8 megapixels, the image quality has not improved all that much. Panasonic's new 8 megapixel chip is quite noisy (which equates to "grainy" in film cameras) and overall the images won't look much better at a given print size than the old, 5 megapixel camera. This is not to say the pictures are unacceptable - they are good, in fact, except for pictures taken in low light - but rather that if you have a 5 megapixel camera, you shouldn't rush to buy an 8 megapixel and expect great improvements. The detail in the shots, however, is very good.

With that out of the way, almost everything else about the camera has improved to a quite incredible degree. It really does feel like Panasonic listened to their customer response and fixed most everything they didn't like.

The camera is a little larger than the FZ20, making it quite hefty - bigger than some SLR cameras, in fact, although a SLR with a comparable lens would be much larger. It's also not light, at about one and a half pounds. This does mean that it's easy to steady and hold, but it's far from a pocket camera.

The lens is totally new, and unlike that in the FZ20, does not retract or move during focussing or zooming - all the movement is internal. This means that the unit is a lot more sealed and solid-feeling, and contributes to making start-up times commendably fast. Unlike the previous model, zooming is done with a ring around the lens like a traditional camera, rather than by a motor and rocker switch. This takes a little getting used to if you've been using most other digital cameras, but soon becomes second nature and much quicker than the motor. In manual focus mode, the lens can be focussed with another lens-mounted ring. The display shows a zoomed-in area to aid manual focussing, and I found this feature quite usable.

The zoom range is 35-420mm (35mm camera equivalent), which is pretty much identical to the previous camera and gives a 12x range. This gives as much telephoto reach as is practicable to hand-hold and get a sharp picture, even with image stabilization. Should you desire more, Panasonic sells an add-on lens giving even more reach, but I'd advise a tripod. You're more likely to desire more wide-angle, in my opinion, and another conversion lens is available for that.

Unlike the previous camera, the lens does not have a constant F2.8 aperture, but rather gives F2.8 at the wide end and F3.7 at the long end. This is still very good; clearly, some compromise had to be made.

Overall, the construction feels much more solid and high-quality than the FZ20. The hand-grip is also improved, being much deeper and easier to hold, and the location of the shutter button is improved. The FZ20 always felt a little fragile, and this camera does not.

If you have the FZ20, is it worth the upgrade? Not if you want to upgrade for image quality; yes, if you want a much more solidly built, ergonomically satisfying camera. Is that worth the money? In the end, it's up to you, but I'd advise going to a store and handling one; you may fall in love with it, it's that good.

[John_Reed]

Hi everybody!

I'm planning to buy a new camera but I really have a problem to make my choice! I would mainly use it to photograph birds and wild animals (so I need an ultrazoom camera). I would also pic insects so I need a good macro mode! Image quality is rather important to me... The two cameras I have in mind are Panasonic FZ30 and Canon S2...:rolleyes: Which one would you recommand to me?
Thank you!

Nic

http://John-Reed.smugmug.com/photos/36551698-M.jpg
http://John-Reed.smugmug.com/photos/36551168-M-2.jpg
http://John-Reed.smugmug.com/photos/38015042-M.jpg
http://John-Reed.smugmug.com/photos/38014972-M.jpg

How close to Nature do you want to get? All the images were taken with no external add-on lenses, other than a single UV filter for lens protection.

[Shnabbles.com]

John Reed were those pics taken with the FZ30? If so were is your noise? lol

[coldrain]

John Reed were those pics taken with the FZ30? If so were is your noise? lol
Those photos are scaled down to not even 0.5 megapixel in size. The noise does not show up on such a low resolution. If you want to know how noisy it gets, ask John Reed to post a 100% resolution crop without processing of areas with darker tones, or greys and blue skies. The noise will show up when you look at leass scaled down photos, and on large print outs you make.

You do not buy a 8mp camera to make pictures to scale down to 0.5mpixel. So, if we talk image quality it is of course about 8mpixel and if you do not care about noise in enlargements or if you do not mind having to process all images and get noise out and lose a little bit of detail that way that is fine, but the FZ30 is a noisy camera even at ISO80 compared to others.
That is just a fact.

[John_Reed]

Those photos are scaled down to not even 0.5 megapixel in size. The noise does not show up on such a low resolution. If you want to know how noisy it gets, ask John Reed to post a 100% resolution crop without processing of areas with darker tones, or greys and blue skies. The noise will show up when you look at leass scaled down photos, and on large print outs you make....You do indeed scatter "cold rain" on the subject, but you know NOT whereof you speak in this case. If you had personal experience, as I have, with using an FZ30, you'd be speaking with some authority; otherwise, I challenge you to print this original, which has NOT been post-processed, no noise removal software at all applied. (Nor was it to ANY of the images I posted) As I said, PRINT it, and don't pixel-peep it to death by blowing it up larger-than-life on your computer. It's "only" a 3MP original, but I think you'll find that it prints nicely at 8X10:
http://John-Reed.smugmug.com/photos/38015042-O.jpg
I'll appreciate your feedback after you've printed the photo on a good printer?

[coldrain]

...You do indeed scatter "cold rain" on the subject, but you know NOT whereof you speak in this case. If you had personal experience, as I have, with using an FZ30, you'd be speaking with some authority; otherwise, I challenge you to print this original, which has NOT been post-processed, no noise removal software at all applied. (Nor was it to ANY of the images I posted) As I said, PRINT it, and don't pixel-peep it to death by blowing it up larger-than-life on your computer. It's "only" a 3MP original, but I think you'll find that it prints nicely at 8X10:

I'll appreciate your feedback after you've printed the photo on a good printer?

If you do not see just how noisy that is compared to other cameras, I do not know what you think noise is. Whether you are disturbed by noise is another matter. If you get an 8mp camera and are content to only print small prints out, and never crop pictures, then that camera probably suits you well. If on the other hand you do care about its image quality (and yes, that is about pixels, i am sorry) then maybe that FZ30 has a major drawback.

I do not have pideons or doves to my exposal right now, but I did make a photo of a wood dove (translated from dutch) feeding two young ones two days ago. with the same greys you will see how noisy the FZ30 is in comparison.

It was made with a 8mp Canon EOS 350D with in camera sharpening set to minimum and on ISO 200. No editting or processing was done, and you can see the difference. At 100 ISO it is a tad better.

My 4 year old Canon Powershot S30 makes much better pictures noise wise than this panasonic in particular, if you want I can post a 100% crop of it too to show how its 3mp sensor performs at 50 and 100 ISO and making 100% crops possible without noise disturbance.


*well I would have posted the example if the forum engine had not just been "updated" and probably only works under Windows.

[coldrain]

Ok, now it works again in my browser (no idea why it did not), so here is a 100% crop of 1152x768 pixels taken with an EOS 350D 8mp camera, at iso 200 and in-camera sharpening toned down.

[John_Reed]

Anyone who wants to can print it - I have. It looks fantastic at 8X10, and the dithering "noise" of the screen image shows up not at all on the print (Made on my Epson 2200). But I'd bet that you didn't print it, right? Case closed.

[coldrain]

Anyone who wants to can print it - I have. It looks fantastic at 8X10, and the dithering "noise" of the screen image shows up not at all on the print (Made on my Epson 2200). But I'd bet that you didn't print it, right? Case closed.
I bet you didn't care to look at just how much more noise there is compared to my posted crop? I bet you do not ever look at pictures posted by Jeff Keller with his reviews, and noticed that the FZ30 is about the noisiest camera?

I bet you never want to crop a photo you made, or make a big print of it?

The FZ30 is a nice camera, it just also is very noisy with its 8mp sensor, even much noisier than the already noisy FZ5 and FZ20.

[swgod98]

coldrain, isn't the picture you posted from a dSLR? That is a terrible comparison to be making. I don't think anyone can argue that the FZ30 doesn't have noise. Perhaps more than the average PnS. But, you need to compare it to other UZ camera's. This is in the best interest of the OP...comparing an S2 to the FZ30. Most UZ's have more noise than your standard midsized PnS. So, bringing a dSLR or even a non-UZ camera into the mix for comparison isn't going to help the OP.

I don't mean to put down the S2 when I say this, but it is noisy too!! Your S30 probably also has less noise than my S2...No? Needless to say, you made your point. Yes, the FZ30 has noise.

I think your time and effort will be better spent proving that to the OP in comparisons to equivalent cameras instead of arguing w/ John Reed.

Thank you both for your posts and information.

[coldrain]

Your points are very valid, swgod98, the reason I posted the 350D crop was to show with a same motive and the same grey just how noisy the FZ30 is, to show how much noise it shows in its lowest ISO setting regardless of what camera type it is. Just to inform instead if hearing over and over from FZ30 owners how either it is not noisy or how noise is not a problem.

I do not have a photo of the S2 IS with a similar motive, but I will post a 100% crop os the S2IS made inside a restaurant at unknown ISO (probably its lowest ISO setting but I can not tell you since its not in the EXIF data), f2,7 and 1/40sec to show how noisy (or not noisy) it is compared to the FZ30 (and the 350D).

100% crop, 1024x768 pixels unprocessed (besides re-saving in JPEG format).

[swgod98]

Well, that picture certainly looks good to me. But, in all fairness, there is so much detail there it's difficult to see the noise (or is there none? lol). I found it hard to spot noise on the bird in John's bird picture, but the noise in the background/sky was obvious.

Here's a 100% crop from my S2:

http://www.danshobbyshack.com/temp/IMG_0043b.jpg

btw, John those are really good shots! I hate spiders.

[astro]

I think the FZ30 and 350D pics showed very well what you are getting with the P&S that costs nearly as much as the 350D.

The images of the FZ30 are filled with noise, lack detail, and have very poor dynamic range, resulting in very poor colors.

Sure, this is more than acceptable for a camera like the FZ20, for $400. In fact, I consider the FZ20 the best camera you can get for $400.

But when you're paying $800 for the FZ30, why not just get a DSLR when it costs the same? If you are willing to compromise image quality for the zoom versatility, the same options are available on the DSLR. You can get cheap 28-200mm zoom for around $200 for the DSLR, and basically use it as a P&S.
You'll get much better image quality for the same price. I just don't see the practicality of the FZ30.

Oh and with the DSLR, you'll have more options to get higher quality lenses. Here's a shot I took with my $550 Pentax *ist DS body with my $105 Super Takumar 300mm F/4 prime lens I got used on ebay - a combination that destroys the any superzoom P&S in quality, but compares in price.

http://astroguy.org/300mm2.jpg

[swgod98]

The FZ30 is $530+, not $800 (please do not post misinformation). That's about $100 cheaper than what you claim you paid for your *ist setup. Not to mention the FZ30 is lighter (possibly smaller depending on lens). It's all in one (no lugging around multiple lenses). And it has a 420mm zoom range, something your *ist camera can't reach with the lens you mentioned you have. It can also capture video. Some people might find that extremely useful at times.

Needless to say, some people might find all those features that the *ist doesn't have useful. And for $100 cheaper.

[astro]

Wow the FZ30 price came down pretty fast. I remember it being around $800 at release.
It's not a bad camera for the price then.

Entry-level DSLRs all have APS sized sensors, thus a 300mm lens would yield rougly 480mm equivalent.

A 28-200mm lens would yield a 44-320mm range. Slightly less zoom, but much higher image quality.

Yes I'd agree the FZ30 would be a great camera for someone that wants everything. But usually something that does everything, doesn't do anything very well. I'd personally go for something that does one thing very well.

[John_Reed]

I'm not going to nit-pick your pigeons, except to say there seems like a lot of CA in the background, and blue bleeding onto the pigeons in places? Maybe I will try printing it, to see if the print shows a better image. But I thought you might like to read a little translation of an article in a German photo magazine, in whose estimation, the FZ30 is "there (sic) conclusion was that the Fz30 is the best camera in the zoom market, period." Here's (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=15135005) a link to the full results portrayed in the translation.

[coldrain]

*sigh*... I have german magazines complain about the fz5 to be good but the noise letting them down. The FZ30 has tons more noise. How nice, a german magazine giving a camera a good review. What is your point, why are you in denial of one major flaw in the FZ30? It is not like it is a secret, that the FZ30 is noisy.

Whether one minds it or not is totally individual, and that therefore I point it out in an advice section has good reason. It is up to the readers of posts to make up their mind if the noisy character of photos is a problem to them or not.

The picture I posted was of a dark subject against a bright sunny blue sky back ground. Yes, you see a little bleeding of the blue therefore. Do you really want me to point out that the white on your pidgeons beak shows the same bleeding, even though it is not "light" like the sky? The "CA" you seem to see is not really CA but the blurring also called bokeh, the lens was pretty much wide open and has a nice soft bokeh that makes the light and dark stuff in the background run nicely into eachother.

The thing is, the FZ30 is a nice complete camera, with a nice manual focus ring and zoom ring that it has as plus compared to the Sony and Canon 12x zooms. That does make it a nice camera, but that does not make its picture quality better. As the two crops of S2 IS pics show you, they are much less noisy. It is just a fact. And the colours are better saturated, not too saturated but life like.
The S2 IS also has a nicer display swivel design, another plus, and it is compact and lighter yet still feels sturdy.

As you can see, both cameras have their plusses. And depending on what one finds important, both will find happy buyers. Just your denial that the very noisy nature of the FZ30 can be a problem to others, but not you, is shortsighted or you just do not want to hear anything bad about your purchase.

[John_Reed]

I posted some FZ30 "nature" shots, which you immediately rejected as having been totally over-pped, only looking good because they were down-sampled to display here. I think my Pigeon stacks up pretty well against yours; if you didn't like the "dithering" noise (dithering for displaying the image on your LCD/CRT screen) in the 100% crop of the pigeon, it didn't show at all in the very sharp print I made at 8X10 on my Epson 2200 printer. My pigeon had virtually NO post-processing; can you say that of yours? Anyway, my original point is still valid: The FZ30 IS, in fact, worthwhile to consider for "nature" photography, especially when one considers how much (expensive and heavy) glass one would have to add to your 350XT to achieve the equivalent zoom range (35 to 420 @ 8MP, 35 to 553 @ 5MP, and 35 to 668 @ 3MP) The pigeon was shot at 3MP full zoom, by the way. This is not just MY opinion. "Not wanting to hear anything bad about my purchase" would be a first, as Panasonic cameras have been taking shots since their introduction from less-than-fully-informed folks like yourself. You write off the blue CA in your photo as "nice bokeh," a good rationalization, at best. But peace, brother, we'll just agree to disagree, each to his own delights.

[coldrain]

I posted some FZ30 "nature" shots, which you immediately rejected as having been totally over-pped, only looking good because they were down-sampled to display here. I think my Pigeon stacks up pretty well against yours; if you didn't like the "dithering" noise (dithering for displaying the image on your LCD/CRT screen) in the 100% crop of the pigeon, it didn't show at all in the very sharp print I made at 8X10 on my Epson 2200 printer. My pigeon had virtually NO post-processing; can you say that of yours? Anyway, my original point is still valid: The FZ30 IS, in fact, worthwhile to consider for "nature" photography, especially when one considers how much (expensive and heavy) glass one would have to add to your 350XT to achieve the equivalent zoom range (35 to 420 @ 8MP, 35 to 553 @ 5MP, and 35 to 668 @ 3MP) The pigeon was shot at 3MP full zoom, by the way. This is not just MY opinion. "Not wanting to hear anything bad about my purchase" would be a first, as Panasonic cameras have been taking shots since their introduction from less-than-fully-informed folks like yourself. You write off the blue CA in your photo as "nice bokeh," a good rationalization, at best. But peace, brother, we'll just agree to disagree, each to his own delights.
*sigh*. As you can SEE, you posted nature pictures. Then someone asked where the noise was. I EXPLAINED that you did not see noise because it was SCALED DOWN.
You have a seletive reading problem?
Next. Your pidgeon photo displays NOISE not "dithering on a crt/lcd". NOISE. Chroma noise. In the sky, on the grey feathers, everywhere. MORE noise than usual. As stated, the crop i posted was without any processing, even the processing in-camera was set to neutral. And your CA blahblah, CA does not "bleed" the light blue of the sky, it would have shown either a redish or greenish edge. Yes, the EF 70-200 f4 L can display some CA but what you say is wrong in the photo is just not so. If you like i can post a picture of the same lens where it DOES show CA. BTW, did you look at the white in your pidgeons beak? You see the same effect as the blue around the pidgeon in my photo.
And then, I DID post a 100% unprocessed crop I made with a Canon S2 IS camera, and if you did care to look you would see that that picture is much less noisy than the photo's from an FZ30. The Sony H1 is the least noisy when you have to up the ISO, btw.

And you may just sometime read the review of Jeff Keller, and notice the one drawback he found in that camera (noise!). And you may just at one time look at the sample pics he took and compare them with sample pics he took with other camera's. I did post a link to one where it is particularly horrid before, I guess you did not see that either?

As I said before, the FZ30 is a very nice camera, but it is noisy so it is not for everyone. If you have no problem with that point, you will have a very nice camera in the FZ30. But so will others have in the S2 IS, and so will others have in the Sony DSC-H1 (and FZ20).
Fact remains, the 8mp resolution "advantage" over the 5mp "competition" gets to be useless if the results are so noisy you can not use the advantage of 8mp.

Stop being so biased.

[genece]

John
I kind of like your pigeon pictures...but in all honesty if those other guys could get me one of those 350 D's with a 24 to 300 IS lens for $550.00 I'll take it.
As far as that S2... its junk.

[coldrain]

John
I kind of like your pigeon pictures...but in all honesty if those other guys could get me one of those 350 D's with a 24 to 300 IS lens for $550.00 I'll take it.
As far as that S2... its junk.
Jeff Keller thinks it is not junk when he wrote the review, and he actually used it, like he used the FZ10, FZ20, FZ30. Nor did he find the H1 junk.

I like the S2 for it has better colours, and not so much noise. Its compact and has good features. I did recommend people the FZ20 before i saw photos of the S2 IS, so do not think I am biased because I happen to have a 350D. You give brand loyalty a new meaning ;)

The german september Computer Foto magazine places both the S2 IS and H1 above the FZ20, their former nr 1 in the ultra zooms. Maybe all 3 have their merrits?

[swgod98]

I'm pretty sure genece was just taking a stab at you. Kind of unfortunate, because there are lots of people browsing trying to find honest (and meaningful) opinions.

But, oh well...

[ZCarroll]

Personal pictures I took with the s2 and the pana fz30, I found the canon to be much noisier at iso200, I'm just curious coldrain, if you have used both the cameras yourself? I personally discounted the fz30 after having taken pictures with the fz5 and the fz20 and finding the colors very disappointing and then seeing sample pictures on the web of the fz30 that seemed very noisy, however when I actually took pictures with the fz30 I was very surprised that the color was much better. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything -I'm too lazy at this point, but I'm just thinking if you (coldrain) actually tried one out for yourself you might change your opinion as I have. Or not. No matter either way.

[coldrain]

Personal pictures I took with the s2 and the pana fz30, I found the canon to be much noisier at iso200, I'm just curious coldrain, if you have used both the cameras yourself? I personally discounted the fz30 after having taken pictures with the fz5 and the fz20 and finding the colors very disappointing and then seeing sample pictures on the web of the fz30 that seemed very noisy, however when I actually took pictures with the fz30 I was very surprised that the color was much better. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything -I'm too lazy at this point, but I'm just thinking if you (coldrain) actually tried one out for yourself you might change your opinion as I have. Or not. No matter either way.
Normally you make photos at the ISO 50 (80 for FZ20) and ISO 100 setting with these cameras. Like I said before, if it is lower noise at ISO 200 or 400 the Sony DSC-H1 is your best bet.

So what are you doing making photos at 200? you usually make pictures in dark places? If you do then I would suggest a Fuji or the H1 if you have to have an UltraZoom. Ultrazoom inside I find a bit weird, usually you use that outside. So... I am a bit puzzled by why you took pics at ISO 200. To prove what? That both cameras do not do a good job?
Higher ISO values are best avoided with cameras like these unless it is necessary, and if you must, then you can try and salvage with noise nija or something.
At ISO 50 and 100 the S2 is better, and like you pointed out, the FZ5 and FZ20 have disappointing colours. So, that is why I prefer the S2. I do not know if you actually have read all posts, but I have stated already that I have used both the S2 IS (and i posted a 100%crop from it) and the FZ20.

The FZ30's full res photos posted on internet show the noise that is worse than other camera's at iso 80, and I have not used the FZ30.