E300 vs D70s vs 20D, opinions please.

[asmodai]

I'm much in the same boat as another poster at the moment. Canon, Nikon or Olympus is my short list at the moment (D70s, 20D and E300).

The problem is, the E300 has a very clear price lead over here in Australia. These are some prices just off an etailer (I've gotten cheaper prices locally) but represent fairly well the price differences.

Canon EOS 20D with Canon 18-55 Lens
$2,559.00 Inc. GST
Canon EOS 20D with Canon 18-55 Lens

Nikon D70s with Nikon 18-70mm Lens
$1,845.00 Inc. GST
Nikon D70s with Nikon 18-70mm Lens.

Olympus E-300 Digital SLR Twin Lens Kit
$1,369.00 Inc. GST
Olympus E-300 Digital Kit SLR this includes a 14-45mm and the 40-150mm ZUIKO DIGITAL zoom lens, and the battery grip. No 2nd battery.

Note that the Canon is almost double the price of the E300 and sans a few features/extra's. None come with cards/bags (something I've factored a cost for across the board)

From the comments I've read, the E300 has a few issues (poor wide focus with the basic lense, pictures can be a bit to soft, poor ISO performance past 400) but my question to you is for that price point, do the short comings outweigh the value? (subjective of course :) )

After handling all three camera's, I like all 3, so I'm left with cons vs price. The cons of the E300 do not outweigh the price difference imo.

Also, is this situation similar in the US and elsewhere?

I think I've made my mind up but I have a few doubts still floating around so I thought I'd ask for a little guidance :confused:

[Rex914]

Forget the 20D and consider an XT instead. The XT is sold in the US for $750 body only or a little over $800 with the 18-55 kit lens, putting it in a much more reasonable price range.

But apart from that, it really depends on what you plan in the future. If this is all you'll invest, the Olympus is a respectable choice for the price, but if you plan on expanding your lens collection in the future, the Olympus is not the best choice because the format is new and because the lens selection is far more restricted than what you'll find from Canon and Nikon.

[asmodai]

Thanks for that Rex, I will check it out.

Are prices alot closer in the US? The reason I ask is that I'm due for a trip to California shortly (4 odd weeks) and if I can pick up the cam over there for a lot cheaper, it may be a viable option.

Thanks for the recommendation of the XT, I'll be sure to check it out.

Also, your lens buyers guide was excellent. I'm vaguely familiar with most of what you were talking about but I'm in that baby steps phase where I want to move up to a more hands on camera but still a little shy on knowledge. Having the info pitched in a very understandable format (at least for me :) ) was great.

[j26]

Also, consider a D70 over a D70s.

There is a firmware upgrade that upgrades the software on the D70 to the same as the D70s and I reckon it would be better to get the D70 and keep some cash for a lens. You should be still able to pick up a discounted D70 somewhere, reasonably cheap, and I find it a marvellous camera, and the controls look easier to use than the XT (350D).

General opinion seems to be that the kit lens on the D70 (18-70) is far better quality than the XT (18-55) kit lens.

Personally I prefered the feel of the D70 in my hand to the XT, but the XT has more pixels (8.2 v 6.1). Both seem to be great cameras though, and you won't go wrong with either.

[D70FAN]

OR...

If cost is a factor and you like the E300, maybe you should look at the Nikon D50. Should be about the same cost as the E300 but with much better performance and features. A nice well rounded camera.

[Warin]

The Kit lens on the XT is rubbish compared to the AF-S DX that comes with the 70 and 70s. That isnt to say that Canon doesnt make good lenses, it just means that by the time you buy an equivalent lens for the XT, you are spending more than what the D70s would cost you.

The XT itself is a great camera, but I wouldnt want to use one without the optional grip and second battery, to get it into the same league as the D70 in terms of shots per charge and comfort of use/ergonomics.

I like the 70s over the 70 for the larger LCD and the cable release option, which is nicer when shooting on a tripod.

[asmodai]

Aye, the D70 is available for about $1500 AUD for the base model and lens. The XT (350D over here) sits at about the $1450 mark factoring in a $150 rebate. The inclusion of battery grip and 2nd lens for the olympus is attractive but not a deal sealer.

Decisions decisions. I must admit the D70 or D70s is my preferred pick but I'm unsure if the budget (and the better half) will let me go that far :rolleyes:

[asmodai]

I think I'm starting to put things into perspective and have decided to stick with the E300. The cost is outstanding despite it's flaws, and the few sticky points I've kinda made peace with. It's a nice cheap (relatively) entry to dSLR camera's for me and if the 3/4 format does peter out, I can always upgrade to a more full featured brand/model down the track. For the time being though, it does seem to fill my needs and I've found test shooting with it to be a pleasent upgrade to my old point and click Canon.

Thanks for the input and information though guys. Really appreciate it.

I'll have to tack up some of my amateur attempts for a bit of professional critique once I get back from the US :D

[D70FAN]

I think I'm starting to put things into perspective and have decided to stick with the E300. The cost is outstanding despite it's flaws, and the few sticky points I've kinda made peace with. It's a nice cheap (relatively) entry to dSLR camera's for me and if the 3/4 format does peter out, I can always upgrade to a more full featured brand/model down the track. For the time being though, it does seem to fill my needs and I've found test shooting with it to be a pleasent upgrade to my old point and click Canon.

Thanks for the input and information though guys. Really appreciate it.

I'll have to tack up some of my amateur attempts for a bit of professional critique once I get back from the US :D

I think you may regret that decision over the D50 with 18-55 kit lens. But it's your money. Good luck on using those Olympus lenses on anything else, and the 2X crop will put a serious limit on what you can buy from the 3rd party suppliers.

Just my opinion.

[Rex914]

I think you may regret that decision over the D50 with 18-55 kit lens. But it's your money. Good luck on using those Olympus lenses on anything else, and the 2X crop will put a serious limit on what you can buy from the 3rd party suppliers.

Just my opinion.

I don't want to sound too pushy either, but you should think things out a bit more. As George said, your third party lens choices are very limited at this point, and believe us all, you'll most likely be being at least some of your lenses from a third party either because

1) They are cheaper by 50% and offer more or less the same quality.
2) Your first party manufacturer doesn't make such a lens.

As I said previously, it depends on what you are committing to. If you do plan on extending your lens collection, I'd still recommend getting a D50 or an XT (your pick) instead because the Canon and Nikon collection is far larger than any other, and the third party support for these two is markedly better than for any other camera company. Buy for the long term and not because the original investment was the cheapest.

I know we can be idealistic and stick out for the small guy, but this is not one of those cases. Nikon and Canon are offering the more compelling product, and have the sales and stats to show it.

Brick and mortar stores in the US sell things rather expensively. Is it possible for you to order from a US site and have it ship over? Both the D50 and Rebel XT can be had for much less than list price from reputable places like Buydig and cost only marginally more than the Olympus. If you buy in a brick and mortar, then Olympus does have that price advantage.

[erichlund]

Brick and mortar stores in the US sell things rather expensively. Is it possible for you to order from a US site and have it ship over? Both the D50 and Rebel XT can be had for much less than list price from reputable places like Buydig and cost only marginally more than the Olympus. If you buy in a brick and mortar, then Olympus does have that price advantage.

Between the customs and shipping, he'd probably pay more than buying on his local economy. Frankly, I've never regretted buying local. My local vendor provides support that I won't get from on online vendor.

Any of the cameras on your list will take good photos. There are weaknesses to the Oly cameras that Oly users are in denial on (Just go to any Oly site to see what I mean.) You might also want to look at the cost of other lenses in the system, compared to manufacturer prices and third party prices on similar lenses. Don't forget that the purpose of buying an SLR is that you are buying into a system, so don't look at the short term cost, look at the long term benefits of each particular system. Still, the choice is ultimately yours, and if the Oly system meets your needs, I've heard very good things about the quality of output, as long as you stay withing the cameras limitations.

Cheers,
Eric

[Rex914]

I guess you're right, but it's painful to have to pay 20% more ($900 vs. $750 USD for example) for a camera when it's being sold online for a fair price. Plug in tax and that 20% soars even further up.

[speaklightly]

Pentax is very big in Australia. Why not take a look at the Pentax 1stDS. It is certainly better than the E300 at high ISO's and, just in my personal opinion, a lot of dSLR for the price.

The Pentax 1stDS can use ISO 3200 quite nicelt. Yes it will have so noise for noise ninja or neat image to address, but the Canon 350D/XT can only go to ISO 1600. The Pentax has a great viewfinder, not a pinched grip like the XT, and might indeed be worth a look.

Sarah Joyce

[asmodai]

Believe me, I'm keeping an open mind and I'm still seriously considering the D50 (I have looked at the Pentax and it's not on my top 3 list atm, however the price is very nice, $999 body and stock lens).

The price actually changed a bit on the Olympus (somehow a salesman got "confused") making it a little less attractive, so my options have opened back up slightly :rolleyes:

Your continued advice is appreciated :)

[D70FAN]

Believe me, I'm keeping an open mind and I'm still seriously considering the D50 (I have looked at the Pentax and it's not on my top 3 list atm, however the price is very nice, $999 body and stock lens).

The price actually changed a bit on the Olympus (somehow a salesman got "confused") making it a little less attractive, so my options have opened back up slightly :rolleyes:

Your continued advice is appreciated :)

I don't think that you can go wrong with the D50 as a good all around dSLR. I would recommend it to freinds and family if they were thinking of buying a reasonably priced dSLR.

[Rhys]

I've got the XT and have been using two lenses - a 50mm f1.8 and the 18-55 kit lens which isn't great. Having said that I have made it to the finals of the "reflections" competition on the fred miranda board with that lens. Since then I have acquired the Tamron 28-75 f2.8. It's a massive chunk of glass and has a lens hood supplied (take note, Canon). I have yet to test this lens though. At the same time I picked up a 1gb CF card. I decided to get the 1.8mb/s version rather than the faster version on the basis that I don't do sport and that the camera has a decent buffer.

I'd say you won't go wrong with Canon and unlike Nikon, all their lenses will work. With Nikon, it's pot-luck.

[Warin]

I'd say you won't go wrong with Canon and unlike Nikon, all their lenses will work. With Nikon, it's pot-luck.

Excellent! Where did you get that adapter that let you put a 50mm f/1.8 FD lens on the XT? I'd love to be able to use my selection of FD lenses!

On the other hand, the 500mm reflex Nikkor AI lens a customer brought mounted fine on the D70s, I made an educated guess on the settings, and took a few photos, and he took the D70s. (I sell Canon too).

If you are going to give advice, at least try to get it right, Rhys.

[Rhys]

Excellent! Where did you get that adapter that let you put a 50mm f/1.8 FD lens on the XT? I'd love to be able to use my selection of FD lenses!

On the other hand, the 500mm reflex Nikkor AI lens a customer brought mounted fine on the D70s, I made an educated guess on the settings, and took a few photos, and he took the D70s. (I sell Canon too).

If you are going to give advice, at least try to get it right, Rhys.


But you can get adaptors to put FD lenses onto my XT. I can put most lenses from most cameras on if I wished. The adaptors are about $170. There's a craze atm for Canon owners to use Zeiss lenses so they use adaptors.

[Warin]

But you can get adaptors to put FD lenses onto my XT. I can put most lenses from most cameras on if I wished. The adaptors are about $170. There's a craze atm for Canon owners to use Zeiss lenses so they use adaptors.

FD lenses on an EF mount lose infinity focus, and that is rather a problem, I should think. Zeiss lenses can be mounted, but you should have an adapter for EVERY lens you want to use (that's from one of the guys who makes the Contax/Zeiss mounts).

You still havent adressed the fact (yes, fact) that I can mount virtually any F mount lens on a D50/70 and still take a picture, as long as I dont mind experimenting (20 seconds) or using an external light meter. And that is without any adapters. In fact, if one was willing to spend the money on adapters, most MF Nikon lenses can actually be chipped to work perfectly on D50/70/F80.

[D70FAN]

With all of the great AF lenses that are available from Nikkor, Canon, Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina, there is almost no value in using MF (aptly named) lenses. Especially with the limited MF capability of the consumer dSLR's focus screen, or lack thereof.

Sure I pick up my FE and putter around with the manual focus for a few minutes until I get tired of puttering, pick up the D70 with a AF Sigma 18-125, and truely enjoy shooting instead of puttering. If I want a super-sharp, fast, lens I rent an AF Nikkor 28-70 f2.8, or use foot-zoom and slap on the affordable 35mm f2 or 50mm f1.8 in the slowly growing collection($65 each, used). Surprisingly these lenses work as well as MF lenses when switched to manual, but actually do quite well in AF mode.

Putting MF lenses on a dSLR, while fun and challenging, is like adapting wagon wheels to a Corvette. In the end you have a bunch of adapters and old wagon wheels to putter around with, but would never use for, say, driving to Lake Tahoe.

A show of hands... How many of you professional photographers use, or would use, MF lenses on an important assignment? Weddings? Sports? Anything? OK maybe portraits. ;)

AF lenses have been commonly available for the better part of 25 years, and photography in the 21st century is actually pretty cool. C'mon along.

Afterthought: Crap! I let myself get sucked into another Rhys Nikon MF lens discussion. Sorry gang. :o

[Rhys]

But when AF lets you down, MF is the only viable option. I've had to MF my XT occastionally...

[erichlund]

I no longer have to worry about what to mount my old FD lenses on. The crooks took the A1 and lenses with all the other stuff.

Wife had a great idea when we replace our DVD collection. Take all the DVDs out of their cases, and just put the cases on the shelf. Put the DVDs in the plastic sleeves I get for CDs and DVDs I put data on, and store those in some relatively hidden location. I may have to employ some of my woodworking skills for that.

I tend to agree with George about the MF lenses. Really, besides Rhys, who really cares? Once you've used Autofocus, you get used to it. Now, if the cameras still had decent, bright focusing screens with nice split prisms (or whatever), I might have a different opinion. If I tried to manually focus my (former) D70, it would just show how bad my eyes really are.

Cheers,
Eric

[Warin]

Afterthought: Crap! I let myself get sucked into another Rhys Nikon MF lens discussion. Sorry gang. :o

:D

There are a few Nikon MF Micro Nikkors that are stellar performers.

Other than that, unless you have them already... AF lenses that are 100 percent functional are a much better value.

[asmodai]

Nah, it's all good for me as a learning experience to know these things.

On to the good news, the fiance has said that if I really want to, I can get the D70s. I've got a mate who gave me a better price at a local chain electronics store on the D70s and the Tamron 18-200mm lens.

I was looking for a D70 but it seems to be limited to no availability at the moment.

The difference in price between the D50 and the D70s turns out to be about $400 AUD.

Going in for some trial shots this weekend and if everything looks good I'll be purchasing next week.

To be fair, it's probably more camera than I should be looking at as a first dSLR but I'm very excited about seeing what I can do with it.

[bandi]

I'm much in the same boat as another poster at the moment. Canon, Nikon or Olympus is my short list at the moment (D70s, 20D and E300).

The problem is, the E300 has a very clear price lead over here in Australia. These are some prices just off an etailer (I've gotten cheaper prices locally) but represent fairly well the price differences.

Canon EOS 20D with Canon 18-55 Lens
$2,559.00 Inc. GST
Canon EOS 20D with Canon 18-55 Lens

Nikon D70s with Nikon 18-70mm Lens
$1,845.00 Inc. GST
Nikon D70s with Nikon 18-70mm Lens.

Olympus E-300 Digital SLR Twin Lens Kit
$1,369.00 Inc. GST
Olympus E-300 Digital Kit SLR this includes a 14-45mm and the 40-150mm ZUIKO DIGITAL zoom lens, and the battery grip. No 2nd battery.

Note that the Canon is almost double the price of the E300 and sans a few features/extra's. None come with cards/bags (something I've factored a cost for across the board)

From the comments I've read, the E300 has a few issues (poor wide focus with the basic lense, pictures can be a bit to soft, poor ISO performance past 400) but my question to you is for that price point, do the short comings outweigh the value? (subjective of course :) )

After handling all three camera's, I like all 3, so I'm left with cons vs price. The cons of the E300 do not outweigh the price difference imo.

Also, is this situation similar in the US and elsewhere?

I think I've made my mind up but I have a few doubts still floating around so I thought I'd ask for a little guidance :confused:

Hi, i just bought the D50 here in Australia for $1490 with a twin lens kit( 18mm-55mm and 70-300mm) ill also be getting ANOTHER 70-300mm Nikkor lens from Nikon Australia through there giftback redemption, it will be just something i could sell to make my camera even cheaper

so id recommened the D50- asmodai, its a great camera

the cheapest price ive seen it here in OZ with just the single lens kit is $1387, and u will get the 70-300mm Nikkor lens by redemption

i think its a better deal that the Olympus

[D70FAN]

Nah, it's all good for me as a learning experience to know these things.

On to the good news, the fiance has said that if I really want to, I can get the D70s. I've got a mate who gave me a better price at a local chain electronics store on the D70s and the Tamron 18-200mm lens.

I was looking for a D70 but it seems to be limited to no availability at the moment.

The difference in price between the D50 and the D70s turns out to be about $400 AUD.

Going in for some trial shots this weekend and if everything looks good I'll be purchasing next week.

To be fair, it's probably more camera than I should be looking at as a first dSLR but I'm very excited about seeing what I can do with it.

Stay with that camera/lens plan (but go with the Sigma 18-200 instead) and you will be well ahead of the game. Going with the D70s vs. the D50 will insure that you don't run into any shooting limitations, so you should be good to go for many years.

Look at it this way, a better first dSLR will save you from having to buy a second dSLR down the road. ;)

[AllanMarcus]

I'm inthe same boat - looking for an entry level dDSR. I'm almost positive that I will get a Konica-Minolta Maxxum 5D. Bottom line, good processer, good build quality, good ergonomics, built in IS with every lens, and only about $710US (body only).

[Rhys]

I'm inthe same boat - looking for an entry level dDSR. I'm almost positive that I will get a Konica-Minolta Maxxum 5D. Bottom line, good processer, good build quality, good ergonomics, built in IS with every lens, and only about $710US (body only).

All we need is a camera that combines Olympus's dust cleaning with Minolta's anti-shake with Pentaxes backward compatibility in a Canon AF fit :p

[asmodai]

All we need is a camera that combines Olympus's dust cleaning with Minolta's anti-shake with Pentaxes backward compatibility in a Canon AF fit :p

A CanOlyMinolTax?

Chuck in Nikon for good measure and it becomes a NiCanOlyMinolTax..

Sounds like a russian camera :D

Picking up the D70 tomorrow, can't wait to take it for a more extensive test drive than store shooting will allow= )

[MrForgetable]

Got to love the Canon and Nikon love on this forum :p

[D70FAN]

Got to love the Canon and Nikon love on this forum :p

Yup it's a regular Haight-Ashbury, right here on the DCRP. I'm hearing strains of "Not So Sweet Martha Lorain" as I write these prose.